The Wicked Witch of the Sun: A Shiftry Discussion Thread

Introduction


Jibaku on IRC said:
<&Jibaku> mtr, your shiftry discussion thread is good to go
Is it freaky? Yes. Will it make your team crap itself? Erm, probably not. But believe me, once you use a Shiftry (well) or play against an adroit player using one, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

If using Shiftry, you are required to use Groudon, because the Sun is necessary if you want Shiftry to be more than a total turd. Also, I recommend using a Wobbuffet, as otherwise the only way you will set up is if an opponent panics, and Shiftry won't KO much without setup, while it gets KOed quite easily. So the point is that you need Wobbuffet. Finally, entry hazard support can help you nab KOes, like an OHKO on Wobbuffet. Otherwise, just play normally, although you won't want to use Kyogre because of Rain. Speaking of Kyogre, there's a strategy to dealing with it: simply Grass Knot on the switch-in. If its an offensive variant, it's dead. If its a defensive variant, its outsped and killed off again.

Ubers Nasty Plotter
Shiftry (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Nasty Plot
- Grass Knot
- Dark Pulse
- Explosion / Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast
---
Probably the best Shiftry set in the current metagame. This guy can outspeed and OHKO almost everything in the metagame given Sun and a Plot, but runs into trouble with a few targets. ScarfOgre, or just Kyogre in general is this dude's nemesis if you don't Grass Knot first. Rayquaza has Air Lock to mess up your fun in the Sun. And Scizor OHKOes with Bullet Punch. Finally, Blissey walls you as well. So its recommended that your team have some way to handle them. I really don't want to write everything over again, so I'm going to refer you to my Shiftry analysis-in progress for more information.

Calculations
All of these calculations assuming a Nasty Plot, +SAtk Nature, and a Life Orb.

Standard Great Wall Giratina: OHKO after Stealth Rock
612 Atk vs 279 Def & 504 HP (80 Base Power): 492 - 578 (97.62% - 114.68%)

Standard Great Wall Lugia: OHKO after Stealth Rock
612 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 398 - 470 (95.67% - 112.98%)

Standard Support Wobbuffet: OHKO
612 Atk vs 236 Def & 529 HP (80 Base Power): 578 - 684 (109.26% - 129.30%)

Standard Palkia: OHKO after Stealth Rock
612 Atk vs 271 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 378 - 445 (117.76% - 138.63%)

Standard Defensive Latias: OHKO after Stealth Rock
612 Atk vs 444 Def & 329 HP (80 Base Power): 308 - 366 (93.62% - 111.25%)

Standard Darkrai: OHKO after Stealth Rock with Grass Knot
612 Atk vs 216 Def & 281 HP (80 Base Power): 316 - 373 (112.46% - 132.74%)

Standard Mewtwo: Lol
612 Atk vs 216 Def & 353 HP (80 Base Power): 632 - 746 (179.04% - 211.33%)

Standard Blissey: OHKO with Explosion
236 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (250 Base Power): 922 - 1086 (141.63% - 166.82%)

Other Options
=================
- Low Kick
- Hidden Power Fire
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
=================
Substitute eases prediction, so it is viable, although it also makes you easier to wall. A physical set is viable, but easy to wall, and having to rely on Sucker Punch for STAB is horrible. Hidden Power Fire owns Scizor, while Low Kick bones Dialga. I found that a mixed Shiftry set lacks the power to do much in Ubers.

Sample Team
I use Spikes, Stealth Rock, Sun Support, Wobbuffet Support, and a Spin Blocker to make sure that Shiftry is successful. I try to ensure that very little can setup on my Pokemon, but I keep a Scarf Palkia in reserve just in case some player tries to get clever with Wobbufffet. This team doesn't focus so much on checking threats as developing the threat of Shiftry, and to a lesser extent Rock Polish Groudon. If you are interested in making a more ornate team than me, consider making Groudon a Stealth Rock lead and replacing Deoxys-S with a lure Heatran.

Deoxys-e @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 6 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
---
Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 112 HP/252 Atk/8 Def/136 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
---
Giratina-o @ Platinum Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 86 HP/112 Spe/216 SAtk/96 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire
---
Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 6 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Surf
- Spacial Rend
- Outrage
- Thunder
---
Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 30 HP/228 Def/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Encore
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Safeguard
---
Shiftry (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Grass Knot
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
---

Conclusion
Given the Sun and Wobuffet support, Shiftry is a demigod. He outspeeds and OHKOes almost everything in the metagame, and can make your opponent quake in his boots. Although Rayquaza, Scizor, Kyogre, and Blissey might spoil your fun, that shouldn't deter you from trying out the Wicked Pokemon.
 
All looks interesting. Shiftry on its own seems fairly solid, though the idea of getting Sun and NP setup seems a tad optimistic.

As for the team, I can't help but feel its a little bit to focused on Shiftry. With no Kyogre that Palkia is effectively neutered against any non-dragons. You also seem to lack coverage with the number of support moves you are packing. Is it testing well?
 

Theorymon

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Other than added speed, what does shiftry have over Darkrai?
Shiftry also has a STAB Grass Knot and Explosion. However, the added Speed in the sun can make all the difference in the world, as it allows Shiftry to outspeed threats that are big problems for Darkrai, such as Mewtwo and Choice Scarf Palkia.
 
All looks interesting. Shiftry on its own seems fairly solid, though the idea of getting Sun and NP setup seems a tad optimistic.

As for the team, I can't help but feel its a little bit to focused on Shiftry. With no Kyogre that Palkia is effectively neutered against any non-dragons. You also seem to lack coverage with the number of support moves you are packing. Is it testing well?
The team is testing decently, but I feel it could be better. People on IRC suggested I use Substitute Heatran as a Kyogre lure. Palkia is pretty much there as a check on SpecsOgre and pals, and where there's Kyogre, there's Rain. The most problematic thing to deal with is probably Scizor.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE
It would be helpful if you could throw in some numbers, so what speed he is after Chlorophyll and what Special Attack he is after Nasty Plot. I'd be interested in seeing some logs of this set working, I'm slightly incredulous towards Shiftry sweeping any good player who knows what it does, or any idiot with a Kyogre.

Also, I think you should mention Explosion as an option over Focus Blast, or at least a more reliable move in general, Focus Blast is very risky (possibly Hidden Power [fighting]?). In addition, it would be useful to include the SD set, which I can imagine works as well as the Chlorophyll sweeper thanks to Explosion, Seed Bomb and Sucker Punch.
 
Shiftry hits 518 Speed in the Sun, and has an Special Attack of 612 after a Nasty Plot. This means that it outspeeds Deoxys-S, +2 Groudon, and Scarf Garchomp. I've already mentioned Explosion, I just chose not to use it on my team because of Dialga.

I can see why you would be incredulous about this set, but the point is that Shiftry won't be doing much without substantive support, but with Sun and Wobbuffet, it can work wonders. All in all, Shiftry is an interesting guy, capable of sweeping in ways that other Ubers can't manage, but also being defeated by Pokemon that wouldn't cause other Uber sweepers any trouble. Its not inferior, just different.

The problem with a Swords Dancer set is that it is far too easy to wall by the likes of Lugia and Giratina. It also sucks when a smart player predicts your Sucker Punches. Basically, the Nasty Plotter is a better sweeper. In my testing, I wasn't too fond of it, but I can see why some would like it. I will look into it further later.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

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Shiftry hits 518 Speed in the Sun, and has an Special Attack of 612 after a Nasty Plot. This means that it outspeeds Deoxys-S, +2 Groudon, and Scarf Garchomp. I've already mentioned Explosion, I just chose not to use it on my team because of Dialga.

Thanks for mentioning this, I think you should include it in the OP also though.

I can see why you would be incredulous about this set, but the point is that Shiftry won't be doing much without substantive support, but with Sun and Wobbuffet, it can work wonders. All in all, Shiftry is an interesting guy, capable of sweeping in ways that other Ubers can't manage, but also being defeated by Pokemon that wouldn't cause other Uber sweepers any trouble. Its not inferior, just different.

Yes, this is the only reason I was incredulous, it requires a lot of support to set up the NP set unless you can predict incredibly well! I didn't say he was inferior to anything, I agree he is different. Shiftry working or not is also heavily reliant on team advantage to an extent, for example your opponents team not being full of stuff like Dialga, Scizor, Rayquaza or Kyogre - but that's what the support takes care of.

The problem with a Swords Dancer set is that it is far too easy to wall by the likes of Lugia and Giratina. It also sucks when a smart player predicts your Sucker Punches. Basically, the Nasty Plotter is a better sweeper. In my testing, I wasn't too fond of it, but I can see why some would like it. I will look into it further later.

Hmm, this is true. However, it's worth considering the SD set if you already have a good Special Sweeper. The physical set I imagine would require a different kind of support for killing walls such as Giratina and Lugia such as a Tyranitar or Spikes and SR. I'm sure after a few switch ins Giratina will be 2HKOed by SD Seed Bomb. Explosion can handle Lugia, although that involves sacing Shiftry =(

I agree with you that the Nasty Plot set looks like a better sweeper however!
 
I can see why you would be incredulous about this set, but the point is that Shiftry won't be doing much without substantive support, but with Sun and Wobbuffet, it can work wonders. All in all, Shiftry is an interesting guy, capable of sweeping in ways that other Ubers can't manage, but also being defeated by Pokemon that wouldn't cause other Uber sweepers any trouble. Its not inferior, just different.
I don't know, any sweeper can work wonders given the correct support. I am not convinced that Shiftry can abuse entry hazards better than Darkrai could do here(or Lucario).
The only advantage I see is its speed, but Rayquaza, Kyogre and Scizor seem to be a lot to deal with, given how over used they are in a standard uber team.
Interesting thread nonetheless
 
The thing is that Darkrai is annoyed by faster Scarfers, whereas they do not bother Shiftry in the Sun because they are consequently outpaced. Also, STAB Grass Knot is very handy to have around. Tbh, Shiftry isn't a showstopper, but he has his virtues in Ubers over other sweepers.
 
Thing is, The support Shiftry needs isn't hard to get. A lure for a counter(Kyogre's rain, and maybe Scizor), the right weather from an already good poke, and a single turn of setup yields a hyperfast superpowerd kryptonian style menace. He's a weather sweeper, darkrai is something else entirely.
 
It seems like it has potential, but it is really priority bait. Once it gets set up, the only thing that would really stop it is Scizor or another priority user. If you lack Focus Blast Dialga also walls this completely which is a problem. It's hard enough to set up one NP let alone switch out, kill Dialga, then switch in and set up again.
 

Theorymon

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I have to test all the viable users of Chlorophyll users in Ubers and the discussion of Swords Dance Shiftry in this thread, I have decided to test it.

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Speed
Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Low Kick
- Faint Attack

Faint Attack may seem stupid, but I despise relying on Sucker Punch to sweep, and it KOs several important Pokémon after Swords Dance anyways. Obviously Rayquaza is going to be a huge issue for this set, and while Giratina is 2HKOed by a +2 Faint Attack, if Will-O-Wisp hits, Shifty won't be sweeping much longer. Here are some damage calcs for Swords Dance Shiftry.

+2 Faint Attack vs...

252 HP / 64 Def Timid Lugia: 85.1% - 100%. a OHKO after Stealth Rock damage o_O

28 HP / 252 Def Bold Wobbuffet: 88.6% - 104.5%. a OHKO after Stealth Rock damage. Calm is OHKOed 100% of the time as well, even without Stealth Rock.

252 HP / 226 Def Mewtwo: 97.1% - 114.4%. Even physically Defensive Mewtwo is OHKO after Stealth Rock. all other Mewtwo sets are easily OHKOed.

112 HP Latias: 155% - 183%. obviously, Latios is also OHKOed.

Naive Giratina-O: 106.1% - 125.2%

Modest 200 HP / 46 Def Giratina-O: 90.4% - 106.7% A OHKO after Stealth Rock damage.

248 HP / 248 Impish Giratina: 59.6% - 70.4%

4 HP Jirachi: 68.4% - 80.7% You will at least do a nice amount of damage before going down.

252 HP Jirachi: 57.9% - 68.3% While you 2HKO, I would be worried by Body Slam or U-turn

0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 72.6% - 85.8% Of course Rayquaza beats this set normally, but if you predict a set up, Faint Attack has a 79.48% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock damage (and even if it lives, Life Orb recoil will finish if off).

+2 Seed Bomb vs...

4 HP / 252 Def Calm Blissey: 94.3% - 111% a OHKO after Stealth Rock damage.

252 HP / 252 Def Impish Groudon: 87.6% - 103%

252 HP / 32 Def Groudon: 112.9% - 132.7%

4 HP Timid Palkia: 96.3% - 113.7% Hasty Palkia is always OHKOed as well.

4 HP Garchomp: 90.5% - 107.3% around a 79.48% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock damage.

252 HP / 252 Def Bold Kyogre: 130.7% - 154.5%

unboosted Seed Bomb vs 4HP Kyogre: 100% - 118.1%

much like the NP set, Shiftry can OHKO min HP Kyogre switch ins with Seed Bomb, and 2HKO slower Kyogre switch-ins while outspeeding.

+2 Low Kick vs...

252 HP Dialga: 131.7% - 155%

252 HP Heatran: 152.8% - 180.3%

252 HP Metagross: 68.1% - 80.2% Metagross will kill you, but this is better than nothing.

252 HP / 4 Def Careful Forretress: 54.2% - 63.8%

252 HP Bronzong: 66.9% - 79%

252 HP Careful Skarmory: 46.4% - 54.8% a possible 2HKO after SR and Leftovers Recovery. You are screwed if its Impish or has Brave Bird though.

Uboosted Low Kick vs 248 HP Scizor: 37.9% - 44.3% This is unfortunately the best you will be doing to Scizor.

And of course, Tyranitar is OHKOed by an unboosted Low Kick lol.


I will be testing this set as soon as I make a team for it, and report the results here. I may also test Explosion on it, though it'll be tough finding a move to replace.
 

Fireburn

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I decided to test SD Shiftry using Theorymon's set and its really good. In many ways its actually more of a threat than the Nasty Plotter, since Shiftry's Attack is higher than its Special Attack and most Ubers have lower defense. (Meaning he can get by without as many entry hazards) It gets walled by Metagross/Scizor/Skarm/Giratina, and Kyogre is a problem of course, but I've found that one Pokemon can handle them all: HP Fire Latias.

I think that SD Shiftry is certainly worth taking for a spin.
 
Wow, I never really thought of that. HP Fire Latios may also work, but Scizor's Bullet Punch OHKOes it, so perhaps not as well.
 

Fireburn

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Unless of course, Kyogre is on the same team as Scizor, Metagross, and/or Skarm and cuts HP Fire in half. In fact, in 1/3, since without the Sun HP Fire goes from 105 to 70, then in Rain to 35. Obviously being Super Effective helps, but against Metagross and Skarmary, it only becomes a measily 70 again. Surf might be a good option on Latias.

Usually you should be in control of the weather when using a team with Shiftry on it, but yeah that is a problem. Surf can work if you're that paranoid I guess. Thunder can also work well enough with Spikes support.

P.S. How many Bullet Punches and Shadow Sneaks can Latias survive? Giratina-O can hit it hard.

From the standard sets, Latias can take one Bullet Punch from Scizor. Shadow Sneak from Hasty Max Attack Giratina-O usually only manages a little over 50% to the standard Latias, so you can live pretty easily.In return, Latias OHKOes Giratina-O with Draco Meteor and Scizor with Hidden Power Fire as long as its not raining.
 

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