The Future of STABmons: You Decided Option 2

EV

Banned deucer.




When I look at the current STABmons metagame I see something akin to the old American Wild West. Everybody carries a gun and the fastest hand is often the one that wins. Basically, the quicker you are at setting up against your opponent, the better your chances are at winning. This has been a building block of STABmons since its inception. However, it's clear to me that this foundation is not sustainable, especially with the constant introduction of bigger, badder threats and stronger attacks with every new generation.

With input from fellow players including the council I've come up with two fixes. Keep in mind, these fixes would create entirely revamped metagames, so unless we choose to do nothing to STABmons, we will be starting fresh with no extraneous bans, using OU as a starting point. The two options presented below are attempts to address the core issues that continue to plague STABmons, which is the combination of crazy setup moves and absurdly powerful attacks.

This process starts now as a community-wide discussion. Once OMPL III is over I will open up a poll, and conceivably, the option with the most votes will win and become the new premise of STABmons. Here are the options:


Option 1 – Exclude all setup moves from the pool of usable moves. In other words, you can't use Shell Smash unless your Pokemon already learns it naturally. This applies to setup moves that only raise and/or lower a Pokemon's own stats. This does not apply to damaging attack moves that also affect stats like Charge Beam or Fiery Dance or non-damaging moves that target the opponent like Growl or Feather Dance.
Acid Armor - Raises the user's Defense by two stages.
Agility - Raises the user's Speed by two stages.
Amnesia - Raises the user's Special Defense by two stages.
Autotomize - Raises the user's Speed by two stages and halves the user's weight.
Barrier - Raises the user's Defense by two stages.
Belly Drum - Halves the user's HP and maxes out its Attack at +6.
Bulk Up - Raises the user's Attack and Defense by one stage.
Calm Mind - Raises the user's Special Attack and Special Defense by one stage.
Charge - Raises the user's Special Defense by one stage. User's Electric moves have doubled power next turn.
Coil - Raises the user's Attack, Defense, and accuracy by one stage each.
Cosmic Power - Raises the user's Defense and Special Defense by one stage.
Cotton Guard - Raises the user's Defense by three stages.
Defend Order - Raises the user's Defense and Special Defense by one stage.
Defense Curl - Raises user's Defense by one stage.
Double Team - Raises the user's evasion by one stage.
Dragon Dance - Raises the user's Attack and Speed by one stage.
Geomancy - Takes one turn to charge, then raises the user's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed by two stages.
Growth - Raises the user's Attack and Special Attack by one stage.
Harden - Raises the user's Defense by one stage.
Hone Claws - Raises the user's Attack and accuracy by one stage.
Howl - Raises the user's Attack by one stage.
Iron Defense - Raises the user's Defense by two stages.
Meditate - Raises the user's Attack by one stage.
Minimize - Raises the user's evasion by two stages.
Nasty Plot - Raises the user's Special Attack by two stages.
Quiver Dance - Raises the user's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed by one stage each.
Rock Polish - Raises the user's Speed by two stages.
Rototiller - Raises the Attack and Special Attack of all Grass Pokémon in battle.
Sharpen - Raises the user's Attack by one stage.
Shift Gear - Raises the user's Attack by one stage and its Speed by two stages.
Swords Dance - Raises the user's Attack by two stages.
Tail Glow - Raises the user's Special Attack by three stages.
Withdraw - Raises the user's Defense by one stage.
Work Up - Raises the user's Attack and Special Attack by one stage each.


This option is the simplest and easiest to explain, but it's considered arbitrary because it singles out one particular aspect of the metagame while ignoring the overall premise. However, it's direct and addresses the main problem at the source.


Option 2 – This option is twofold. Pokemon can learn either all Attack moves or all Status moves that match their type, but not both. In other words, you can teach Shell Smash to a Normal-type that doesn't normally learn it, but you can't also teach it Extreme Speed. You must choose a category: Attack or Status. The easiest way to distinguish between them is to look for these symbols in the Pokedex. These symbols
represent Attacks and this symbol
represents Status.

This option is still simple but requires more explanation to new players. Unlike the first option, it allows you to keep setup on your Pokemon but you cannot also slap on high-power attacks like Boomburst or the extra priority granted with Extreme Speed. This encourages the player to rely on the Pokemon's natural attacks instead. This separation should lessen the fear that your opponent's FakeSpeeding Diggersby also has a Shell Smash in its back pocket.

---​

Let's see the options in action using one of STABmon's most notorious Pokemon and first bans, Sylveon, as an example.


Option 1

We all remember how strong Sylveon was with access to every Normal move via Eevee, giving it setup in the form of Shell Smash, Belly Drum, and Geomancy, all of which proved to be effective in the metagame at sweeping. Plus, thanks to Pixilate, any Normal attack it used turned into a Fairy attack. Thus its Boombursts, Extreme Speeds, and even Explosions skyrocketed in power with those stat boosts under its belt.

Under Option 1, all setup outside its natural learnset is removed. No more +2/+2/+2 Geomancy or Shell Smash sweeps. However, it still maintains Pixilate-boosted Boombursts or even Pixilated FakeSpeeds. And since it has access to other Normal moves, it can utilize Lovely Kiss to disable a counter and setup slowly with Curse, one of Eevee's egg moves, or Calm Mind, a TM move.

This limit would make Sylveon less threatening overall because not only can it not boost Speed and Special Attack at once, it also can't run a random Belly Drum set to completely destroy your special wall designed to handle Geomancy or Shell Smash.


Option 2

Pretend Sylveon is standing in front of two doors, one labeled 'Attack' and one labeled 'Status.' Already we can see Sylveon has more choices than Option 1. However, depending on what door it opens, Sylveon's viability varies dramatically.

If you open the door labeled Attack, it gains access to all its standbys like Boomburst, Judgment, and Extreme Speed. This is great! Sylveon hits really hard with these attacks and Judgment gives it valuable coverage depending on the plate it holds. Well if you chose this route, you have to remember Sylveon is unable to gain any status moves beyond its typical learnset. It loses setup and it also loses support moves like Lovely Kiss and Recover.

If you open the door labeled Status, oh boy, here are all its old setup moves again! Geomancy, Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Swords Dance, you name it! Plus it can run Lovely Kiss to disable Chansey or even Encore to lock a foe into a move while it sets up. But wait, where's Boomburst and Judgment? Well you left them behind the other door, remember? Okay, let's see what we have to work with instead. Hyper Voice is Pixilate-boosted, so that's good, though the 90 base power is a far cry from 140. Oh and look, it still has priority … in the form of Quick Attack. Not so lethal anymore, is it?

Essentially, the Sylveon trainer has to weigh the potentials with either category. If the trainer goes the Attack route they can hit harder with Boomburst and carry strong coverage thanks to Judgment, but has to rely on the slower Calm Mind to boost Special Attack. If instead the trainer wants to try Status to gain Shell Smash and Lovely Kiss, the trainer can expect to hit walls like Chansey for considerably less damage and be forced to run Hidden Power to get coverage on Steel-types. Option 2 maintains all the variety that STABmons has to offer, it just tones it down to manageable levels by splitting access into categories.

---​

So what do you think is better for the future of STABmons? Option 1, which makes setup off-limits but leaves everything else the same, or Option 2, which leaves everything on the table but requires you to be more selective with your sets? And if you don't like any, feel free to say why nothing should change, but I implore you to avoid that unless the idea of an untamed Wild West truly appeals to you. It did to me too, at first, but after a while it gets tiresome trying to keep up with all the broken combinations we keep discovering. Plus, with another generation on the distant horizon, who knows what other monstrosities await? The time to manage this metagame has come, so please choose what you think is best for its future. Thank you.

How this process works:
  • The council + selected users from the ladder and community will be given one vote
  • They will post here with their vote bolded and provide a reason why (a sentence or two is fine, but I encourage you to elaborate more if possible)
  • The council will validate the votes and announce the result on the 16th
  • If you are not in the group of voters, you may still post here but DO NOT attempt to vote. You can say what you'd prefer, but don't insinuate you are part of the pool in any way
  • If you can get to 1350 on the ladder I will add you to the pool of voters!
  • The banlist will revert to a fresh OU banlist with handpicked quickbans by the council unless Option 3 wins
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
honestly, option 2 sounds really interesting, solving the main problem, without completely removing it. giving pokemon who are otherwise completely balls deep overkill(metagross) a chance to redeem themselves, allthough SOME i dont see dropping (diggers still gets SD and aero/keld literally changes nothing and pz gets nasty plot boomburst, heck, it gets ADAPT boomburst off 135 spc attack) it also nerfs scizor, bibarel, and other potential setup spammers without doing so in a unhealthy and negative way.
 
I think option 2 will allow more pokemon to stay viable. Most offensive OU pokemon don't have a problem with their attack movepool, so they get a lot out of an extended setup movepool. And, since you don't have moves like Extremespeed and Boomburst everywhere anymore, this becomes a lot more managable.
 

Scyther NO Swiping

Washed up former great
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I think that option number 2 is the better option. I think the option of having to choose between STAB status/moves helps with allowing for creativity. Either option limits the fake speed/shell smash/belly drum/espeed sets (Stoutland, Braivary, Kanga, Ursaring, Azumarill etc.) that are on almost every team (including mine) as well as limiting the power of some of the big set up sweeper threats and other strong threats in the meta. For example, Heatran can no longer run Kings Shield and doom desire, Mega Scizor can no longer set up and sweep, neither can the fake speeders as I've already mentioned. However, even though this limits the power of some big threats in the meta, option 2 still allows some mons to go on unchanged. Sableye can still run d void, topsy turvy, parting shot, destiny bond, whatever. Thundurus can still run O Wing, t-bolt Taunt, and Nasty Plot, Tyranitar might lose dark Void, but it is still viable with sucker/knock off, diamond storm, and earthquake. I could go on and on about many B and above rank mons (Lando T, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Mega Diancie, Togekiss, and others I'm forgetting) that have sets that they commonly run, or sets similar to ones they commonly run, would be unaffected by this change.

TL;dr Imo option 2 is better because it allows for maximum creativity, and it limits some of the set up spam, however doesn't completely make STABmons a new meta because some mons, including 3/4 S rank mons have several sets that would be unaffected by this change.

Edit: I agree with what TI said with the voting. While I know it we couldn't really do a suspect ladder due to the smallish playerbase, I think we should still have a suspect vote where people vote option 1/option 2 and have to write a paragraph why they chose that option.

Edit 2: I also think when it comes to voting we could have people who want to vote post 4 replays, 2 replays of them using a team built with each option (or 6 if we include normal clause as one of the options) just to show that everyone seriously looked at every option, and at least put in a little effort into wanting to vote, not just simply clicking a button for option 1 or 2.
 
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Alright, long post incoming.

I'd very much like us to stray away from Option #1. As you stated yourself, it's incredibly arbitrary to single out just set up moves. The following is a list of the Pokemon that use the moves listed in the OP, that don't naturally learn them. Removed unreliable, unused, or just bad ones.

Belly Drum (ya missed this) - [Azumarill, Braviary, Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Ursaring]
Bulk Up - None. [Only three Fighting-types legal in STABmons don't naturally learn it: Terrakion, Cobalion, Virizion.]
Calm Mind - [Five Pokemon that are Psychic-types don't naturally learn it and are legal and semi-usable in STABmons.]
Coil - [Mega Venusaur, Scolipede, potentially Dragalge.]
Cosmic Power - [Rarely used, unreliable. Meloetta, I guess?]
Cotton Guard - [Celebi]
Dragon Dance - [Garchomp, Hydreigon, Kyurem (?)]
Geomancy - [Togekiss, with subpar users including Mr. Mime, Gardevoir, Diancie, and Clefable.]
Nasty Plot - [Hydreigon]
Quiver Dance - [Scolipede, Yanmega]
SHELL SMASH (you missed this fsr) - [Azumarill, Braviary, Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Ursaring]
Shift Gear - [Aegislash, Scizor]
Tail Glow - [Scolipede, Yanmega]
So, let's take note of something right now. The most common moves that are set up are Belly Drum and Shell Smash. The next following is Geomancy, which is just Togekiss if you're not running something weird for whatever reason. The other moves are not as prevalent. We have two solid Shift Gear users, with many subsidiaries that you can also use. By removing this, we still have many threats in the metagame that can abuse offensive sets. We might as well ban all offensive moves instead, because it's the same logic as this, imo. Option #1 is a poor choice if we want STABmons improved.

Let's go to Option #2. Now, I still don't like this option. While you do have the option of just one or the other, I still don't feel it changes as much as it seems from a glance. Look at the S Rank, and what they gain from STABmons. Offensive in blue, defensive in green.

Landorus-T - Spikes, Roost, Precipice Blades, Dragon Ascent
Sableye - Dark Void, Parting Shot, Topsy-Turvy
Scizor (Mega) - Shift Gear, Gear Grind, Pin Missile
Thundurus-I - Oblivion Wing, Hurricane, Bolt Strike, Dragon Ascent

These Pokemon do prefer one over the other anyways. However, the logic of this ban is that it prevents [Shift Gear / Shell Smash] + powerful attack. However, the Pokemon who boost are still very powerful. FakeSpeed still runs fine on Normal-types, even without the boosts. Belly Drum Kangaskhan can still walk defensive teams over, with a more powerful Return to boot. Mega Scizor gets nerfed, and prevents a ban. While Aegislash misses Shift Gear, its special set still functions the same. Yes, it does nerf Pokemon that use offensive boosting, but I would like an alternative view. Which Pokemon in specific, that exclude Normal-typing, are actually nerfed a lot? Mega Scizor can run a viable Swords Dance / Gear Grind set that still gives switch-ins a hard time, Aegislash a typical Special Attacker set, even if it does lose a Shift Gear set (which isn't even that bad I would presume), Azumarill still can run Belly Drum / Water Shuriken / Extreme Speed / Play Rough, Togekiss is now forced to rely on Air Slash which is a big nerf, Excadrill / Bisharp still have no problem with Shift Gear. However, I'll deter this portion from set up to status. Which statuses are missed? Greninja can't Dark Void + Origin Pulse, which isn't too bad I guess. Serperior still gets Spore fine, Sableye can Dark Void because it doesn't run any new attacks, random Lovely Kiss from Normal-types can't happen anymore. Honestly, I don't see it changing too too much besides a few more defensive buffs because Pokemon are forced to run a little lower base power moves. The most noticeable are Boomburst and Hyper Voice, and... that's pretty much it? Am I missing another? Gear Grind, without Technician is just a little more powerful than Iron Head, in Aegislash's situation. You lose Extreme Speed's priority, which is important for Belly Drum, but they still have access to Return to blast through slower amounts of the tier. It's different, to say the least.

Instead of these two options, I'd like to propose a third option. I know, Eevee General, you hate the introduction of the Normal Clause, but I do believe this "fixes" the tier. Here's a post I previously made regarding a topic: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3493081/page-63#post-6149069. I never answered your points there, so let me address them now.

This is incorrect. The Limited Normals Clause, as quoted from the Gen V thread, reads "only 1 instance of extra STAB is allowed for Normal-types, including access through the Pre-evo and Forme Clauses." Unfixable is correct.
Thanks boo. :3

On the topic of a Gen VI clause: I didn't like it last generation and I'm determined to avoid it again. unfixable I think you're glossing over the bans and making too many generalizations with your analysis of why they were banned. I'm going to break it down with my view on the bans and why I think another clause is not a good idea.
Perhaps generalization may have occurred, but I stand by the argument.

Claiming "access to all Normal moves breaks Normals" is an oversimplification of STABmons. Access to Normal grants those Pokemon way more options than other types, which is why the right Pokemon are broken with Normal moves. They get many boosting options, they get powerful attacks, they get priority, they get recovery. The correct response then is not that Normal (including pre-evos) Pokemon break with all these tools, it's that there's a higher chance a Pokemon will break because it has many more options than other types.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You remove the broken element of Normal-type access, and the potential of the Normal-type Pokemon being broken or overpowering is removed from the get-go. It's like the building block, I'd say. You have to build up. In no way is Diggersby broken without Normal-type moves, that's a well known fact. However, in a more recent comparison, Normal-types such as Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Braviary are all risen to prominence despite being absolutely terrible without access to their precious Normal-type moves.

Is that enough to warrant a clause for all Normals? I don't think so. Chansey, Porygon 2, and Meloetta maintain great supportive presences with their new moves and yeah, sometimes they go offensive too, but are they broken? Not at all.
Saving three Pokemon versus the previous seven is, in my opinion, yes, enough to warrant a clause for all of them. What you're stating is here is akin to the Aldaron Proposal. Clauses preferred over bans, in my eyes. Like Sleep Clause. Is Breloom broken? No, but due to Sleep Clause, it's prevented from putting the entire opponent's team to Sleep and centralizing the tier. Breloom is terrible in terms of stats and typing. Now look at Braviary. Should Normal Clause be put in place, it would make Braviary much more balanced. While it has Extreme Speed now, it still remains access to Dragon Ascent and U-turn, but is prevented from being broken by eliminating Shell Smash or Fake Out. Limiting the Pokemon as whole, by grouping them, is the way to go because it prevents complex bans. And, honestly, I feel that the past Normal-type bans are complex bans. While we could introduce a clause to sweep them all away, they all are individually looked at it. Which is not what I like. Also, you bring this is an argument, yet the options up here limits all Pokemon. Some Pokemon are the exact same but are not broken.

The current viability ranking has 0 Normals in S rank. Yes we just banned one from it ... but nothing else can fill the void as reliably. In A rank, we have 4. If we include Pokemon with access to Normal we have 6. I'm advocating we add Stoutland to A (once I'm done with this post), giving us 7. Sounds like a lot, but we already have 9 Flying-types in A, 12 if you consider pre-evo access. There are also 3 Flying-types in S (4 if you want to get technical). If any type is more defining than Normal in STABmons right now, it's Flying.
This has changed, since, mind you. Anyways. Viability Rankings serve their purpose, but they should not be used as a grounds to not change something. If I recall, Genesect was A+ or something like that, yet it was deemed unhealthy for the tier. Who cares if we don't have any Normal-types in the S Rank? It doesn't automatically make them worse in the metagame or in play. Flying-types are not defining STABmons... It's Normal-types. I don't know why you think this, as Viability Rankings alone do not prove what defines a metagame. While S Rank's definition does state this, note the "alone." Look past the Pokemon, look at the moves. The moves break the Pokemon. I'm not arguing that any banned Pokemon isn't broken, I'm saying they are broken for their moves they receive access to. By limiting this, we are allowing for more freedom in teambuilding because you don't have to worry about a random FakeSpeed KOing you from a certain percantage.

p.s. thundurus is pure hell, and should be gone imo... but that's another story i won't talk about here.

To expand on point #1, here are explanations as to why we banned what we banned:
    • Sylveon - Pixilate-boosted Boomburst (140 BP STAB), Extreme Speed, setup with Shell Smash
    • Porygon-Z - Boomburst (140 BP STAB) backed up by Adaptability
    • Mega Altaria - see Sylveon and add better typing, Speed, and bulk
    • Mega Metagross - Tough Claws-boosted Heavy Slam (??? BP STAB), setup with Shift Gear, enormous bulk
    • Mega Lopunny - Scrappy Belly Drum Extreme Speed and STAB Drain Punch, amazing Speed
    • Mega Slowbro - Free setup without fear of crits, enormous bulk
    • Keldeo - Combination of Speed, Special Attack, and usually Water Spout (150 BP STAB at its strongest)
    • Diggersby - Huge Power-boosted FakeSpeed and setup
Most of the time it was a very strong STAB move that contributed to the ban (Sylveon, Porygon-Z, Mega Altaria, Metagross, Keldeo) and/or setup on steroids (all of them bar Keldeo who had a slow Calm Mind). These Pokemon were not banned for one trait; it was the combination of things that made them broken. Is ScrappyDrum broken? That's yet to be determined, but keep in mind nothing else has the combination of Speed, Power, and STAB Fighting that Lopunny had. Kangaskhan and Stoutland are big threats now, but they've always had ScrappyDrum. What makes them broken all of the sudden? The reason we're seeing them is because the opportunity cost of using Diggersby is out of the question.​

There is nothing to say here, really... except that you remove one element of this combination and you have Pokemon being unbanned. More diversity. More Pokemon. Mega Lopunny, despite Belly Drum Extreme Speed, is still probably broken thanks to its incredible revenge killing capabilities. Who knows? I surely don't!
So let's not rush to condemn all Normals. Let's approach Pokemon based on their merits individually and then how they interact with the metagame. Kangaskhan on an individual level has a crazy boosting move, +2 STAB priority, and Drain Punch for great coverage! But-- Only 90 Speed. Only 95 Attack. Vulnerable to revenging by faster Pokemon if it doesn't have Protect. Vulnerable to King's Shield. Vulnerable to phazing. Can't break Unaware without Lovely Kiss. Predictable as hell.
Why not? Quickbans are a thing, and these are not quickbans. The Pokemon interact the way they do in the metagame thanks to their Normal-type moves. Kangaskhan does perfectly fine. Drain Punch hits everything it needs to as, everything it needs to hit, is slower than it. Yes, Clefable does check it; that's what makes Clefable good, lol, but one Pokemon checking another is natural and that's not an anti-ban argument. Being predictable does not matter when you literally don't need versatility to be a great Pokemon.

Let's adapt, or at least try to. Protect blocking your FakeSpeed combo to revenge Kangaskhan? Pack Feint. Want a more defensive answer? Start using Skarmory again! Or keep using Quagsire and Clefable. Those are a few answers to consider.
Not sure what this means.

Tl;dr. STABmons favors Normals because there are more Normal moves than anything other type, no contest. However, the Limited Normals clause is arbitrary. "Normals get a lot so let's limit them." Flying doesn't even get a boosting move but look how centralizing Flying-types are! Bug gets crazy setup in Quiver Dance and Tail Glow but look how marginalized they are! It's the combination of attributes that determines a Pokemon's place in STABmons. Normal is fortunate to gain the most all in one bang, but it's not the inherent fact that they are Normals that makes them broken, it's the bigger picture.
It's less arbitrary than the proposed options. You identify the problem, Normal-types. If you're allowing Option #1 to be a choice even though it is arbitrary as this, then I think this should be allowed for discussion. Flying-types don't run STABmons. Normal-types are not broken, Normal-type moves are broken. Don't tell me that Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Recover, Transform, Boomburst, Lovely Kiss, etc and anything of Normal-type variety given to something with good stats is not broken. I remain adamant that Normal-types revolve the metagame, and are what need to be nerfed.

I know your post is old, and your views / stances might've changed. And some points are different now, but I felt the need to reply to this because it was ignored back in the day and just leads to more discussion.

However, if it was solely my pick, I would change nothing. Bar getting rid of Thundurus and Mega Scizor and reverting to keeping Ubers banned. Since that's likely not an option, I don't support #1 or #2, I support Normal Clause.

One final thing:

This process starts now as a community-wide discussion. Once OMPL III is over I will open up a poll, and conceivably, the option with the most votes will win and become the new premise of STABmons. Here are the options:
Is this really how we want STABmons to be revolved? By people who do not play the metagame. I don't like this idea. Instead, I propose that we have the council vote, and add a "mini-council," similar to LC, for good posters in this thread and good STABmons players to take a vote. I know it should be open to the community, but I want the future of an important metagame to be decided by the ones who are influencing the current metagame. The poll idea isn't liked in BH, from what I pick up, and I don't like it much either here. I care about STABmons, and I don't want the polls to be influenced in any way other than 100% honesty and 100% thought and effort; I don't think a poll provides this.

Lots of opinions, lots of ideas, lots of proposal. Refute my points, I'm ready to come at ya >:). One more final thing: I urge you all to consider alternatives to these. Yeah, it's probably just me not being a fan, but it does state that the two options are not the only ones open for discussion. I'm placing Normal Clause on the table, as I feel that's best for STABmons.
 
I like Option 2. It's less restrictive, because it still let you have access to all STAB moves that poke deserves. It'll nerf some pokes, (no more Shift Gear + Gear Grind Scizor or Shift Gear + Heavy Slam Mega Metagross) making things more balanced.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Alright, long post incoming.

I'd very much like us to stray away from Option #1. As you stated yourself, it's incredibly arbitrary to single out just set up moves. The following is a list of the Pokemon that use the moves listed in the OP, that don't naturally learn them. Removed unreliable, unused, or just bad ones.



So, let's take note of something right now. The most common moves that are set up are Belly Drum and Shell Smash. The next following is Geomancy, which is just Togekiss if you're not running something weird for whatever reason. The other moves are not as prevalent. We have two solid Shift Gear users, with many subsidiaries that you can also use. By removing this, we still have many threats in the metagame that can abuse offensive sets. We might as well ban all offensive moves instead, because it's the same logic as this, imo. Option #1 is a poor choice if we want STABmons improved.

Let's go to Option #2. Now, I still don't like this option. While you do have the option of just one or the other, I still don't feel it changes as much as it seems from a glance. Look at the S Rank, and what they gain from STABmons. Offensive in blue, defensive in green.

Landorus-T - Spikes, Roost, Precipice Blades, Dragon Ascent
Sableye - Dark Void, Parting Shot, Topsy-Turvy
Scizor (Mega) - Shift Gear, Gear Grind, Pin Missile
Thundurus-I - Oblivion Wing, Hurricane, Bolt Strike, Dragon Ascent

These Pokemon do prefer one over the other anyways. However, the logic of this ban is that it prevents [Shift Gear / Shell Smash] + powerful attack. However, the Pokemon who boost are still very powerful. FakeSpeed still runs fine on Normal-types, even without the boosts. Belly Drum Kangaskhan can still walk defensive teams over, with a more powerful Return to boot ONE little nitpick i have, is that belly drum kanga wont walk over defensive teams, as they arent the ones who has problems with it to begin with, sableye, quag, clef, steel types, intimidate cores, theres actually plenty of ways to check kanga for defensive teams, offensive teams were the ones which had problems, since they lacked any form of consistant ways of beating it once it got a drum up (which wasnt hard in the current meta, due to void, parting shot, dual screens, and whatnot. Mega Scizor gets nerfed, and prevents a ban. While Aegislash misses Shift Gear, its special set still functions the same. Yes, it does nerf Pokemon that use offensive boosting, but I would like an alternative view. Which Pokemon in specific, that exclude Normal-typing, are actually nerfed a lot? Mega Scizor can run a viable Swords Dance / Gear Grind set that still gives switch-ins a hard time similarly here, the main problem was scizor shat on offense with shift gear letting it outspeed every offensive threat, defensive teams however now have heatran, charizard x, and other pokemon who can counter/check it without fearing it outspeeding and superpowering them to their death, Aegislash a typical Special Attacker set, even if it does lose a Shift Gear set (which isn't even that bad I would presume), Azumarill still can run Belly Drum / Water Shuriken / Extreme Speed / Play Rough, Togekiss is now forced to rely on Air Slash which is a big nerf or it can just run nasty plot/ oblivion wing lmao not geomancy, but still annoying as hell, Excadrill / Bisharp still have no problem with Shift Gear. However, I'll deter this portion from set up to status. Which statuses are missed? Greninja can't Dark Void + Origin Pulse, which isn't too bad I guess. Serperior still gets Spore fine, Sableye can Dark Void because it doesn't run any new attacks, random Lovely Kiss from Normal-types can't happen anymore. Honestly, I don't see it changing too too much besides a few more defensive buffs because Pokemon are forced to run a little lower base power moves. The most noticeable are Boomburst and Hyper Voice, and... that's pretty much it? Am I missing another? Gear Grind, without Technician is just a little more powerful than Iron Head, in Aegislash's situation. You lose Extreme Speed's priority, which is important for Belly Drum, but they still have access to Return to blast through slower amounts of the tier. It's different, to say the least.

Instead of these two options, I'd like to propose a third option. I know, Eevee General, you hate the introduction of the Normal Clause, but I do believe this "fixes" the tier. Here's a post I previously made regarding a topic: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3493081/page-63#post-6149069. I never answered your points there, so let me address them now.



Thanks boo. :3



Perhaps generalization may have occurred, but I stand by the argument.



That's exactly what I'm saying. You remove the broken element of Normal-type access, and the potential of the Normal-type Pokemon being broken or overpowering is removed from the get-go. It's like the building block, I'd say. You have to build up. In no way is Diggersby broken without Normal-type moves, that's a well known fact. However, in a more recent comparison, Normal-types such as Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Braviary are all risen to prominence despite being absolutely terrible without access to their precious Normal-type moves.



Saving three Pokemon versus the previous seven is, in my opinion, yes, enough to warrant a clause for all of them. What you're stating is here is akin to the Aldaron Proposal. Clauses preferred over bans, in my eyes. Like Sleep Clause. Is Breloom broken? No, but due to Sleep Clause, it's prevented from putting the entire opponent's team to Sleep and centralizing the tier. Breloom is terrible in terms of stats and typing. Now look at Braviary. Should Normal Clause be put in place, it would make Braviary much more balanced. While it has Extreme Speed now, it still remains access to Dragon Ascent and U-turn, but is prevented from being broken by eliminating Shell Smash or Fake Out. Limiting the Pokemon as whole, by grouping them, is the way to go because it prevents complex bans. And, honestly, I feel that the past Normal-type bans are complex bans. While we could introduce a clause to sweep them all away, they all are individually looked at it. Which is not what I like. Also, you bring this is an argument, yet the options up here limits all Pokemon. Some Pokemon are the exact same but are not broken.



This has changed, since, mind you. Anyways. Viability Rankings serve their purpose, but they should not be used as a grounds to not change something. If I recall, Genesect was A+ or something like that, yet it was deemed unhealthy for the tier. Who cares if we don't have any Normal-types in the S Rank? It doesn't automatically make them worse in the metagame or in play. Flying-types are not defining STABmons... It's Normal-types. I don't know why you think this, as Viability Rankings alone do not prove what defines a metagame. While S Rank's definition does state this, note the "alone." Look past the Pokemon, look at the moves. The moves break the Pokemon. I'm not arguing that any banned Pokemon isn't broken, I'm saying they are broken for their moves they receive access to. By limiting this, we are allowing for more freedom in teambuilding because you don't have to worry about a random FakeSpeed KOing you from a certain percantage.

p.s. thundurus is pure hell, and should be gone imo... but that's another story i won't talk about here.


There is nothing to say here, really... except that you remove one element of this combination and you have Pokemon being unbanned. More diversity. More Pokemon. Mega Lopunny, despite Belly Drum Extreme Speed, is still probably broken thanks to its incredible revenge killing capabilities. Who knows? I surely don't!


Why not? Quickbans are a thing, and these are not quickbans. The Pokemon interact the way they do in the metagame thanks to their Normal-type moves. Kangaskhan does perfectly fine. Drain Punch hits everything it needs to as, everything it needs to hit, is slower than it. Yes, Clefable does check it; that's what makes Clefable good, lol, but one Pokemon checking another is natural and that's not an anti-ban argument. Being predictable does not matter when you literally don't need versatility to be a great Pokemon.



Not sure what this means.



It's less arbitrary than the proposed options. You identify the problem, Normal-types. If you're allowing Option #1 to be a choice even though it is arbitrary as this, then I think this should be allowed for discussion. Flying-types don't run STABmons. Normal-types are not broken, Normal-type moves are broken. Don't tell me that Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Recover, Transform, Boomburst, Lovely Kiss, etc and anything of Normal-type variety given to something with good stats is not broken. I remain adamant that Normal-types revolve the metagame, and are what need to be nerfed.

I know your post is old, and your views / stances might've changed. And some points are different now, but I felt the need to reply to this because it was ignored back in the day and just leads to more discussion.

However, if it was solely my pick, I would change nothing. Bar getting rid of Thundurus and Mega Scizor and reverting to keeping Ubers banned. Since that's likely not an option, I don't support #1 or #2, I support Normal Clause.
ok, im just going to come out and say it, why should normal get this "special treatment" and not the other banned pokemon? why not ban steel types which were broken from having 1 move. meta, (mawile when it was ou) scizor, heatran, jirachi, and even aegis when it was ou to an extent has shown a major boost in viability with steel moves in their arsenal, at the same degree as normals do to be more blunt so i see no reason for normal types to be restricted, while types like steel and dark get out scott free. sure, normal gets a lot of fancy moves, but 99% of them barely use 2 or more. unlike steel/dark(not nearly as bad) which use 2 or more all the time. (kings shield and shift gear being the two main ones for steel, and dark giving void, knock off, and parting shot usually). i get your point that "normals are the main perpetrator" the genius amongst the idiots, but they arent the ONLY ones unlike last gen.
One final thing:



Is this really how we want STABmons to be revolved? By people who do not play the metagame. I don't like this idea. Instead, I propose that we have the council vote, and add a "mini-council," similar to LC, for good posters in this thread and good STABmons players to take a vote. I know it should be open to the community, but I want the future of an important metagame to be decided by the ones who are influencing the current metagame. The poll idea isn't liked in BH, from what I pick up, and I don't like it much either here. I care about STABmons, and I don't want the polls to be influenced in any way other than 100% honesty and 100% thought and effort; I don't think a poll provides this.

whats so wrong about community input? i mean, sure theres the "people who have no skill" who post in this thread, but like, who cares, if they have a specific opinion, thats their buisness and i see no right to deny them that, and if they cant gather enough decent rebuttals to their posts(due to a lack of understanding of the meta), then that's their problem, since noone will agree to them. although i do agree voting shouldn't be made poll without some sort of method of "watering out the inexperienced players" as that would just give a completely unfair poll.

Lots of opinions, lots of ideas, lots of proposal. Refute my points, I'm ready to come at ya >:). One more final thing: I urge you all to consider alternatives to these. Yeah, it's probably just me not being a fan, but it does state that the two options are not the only ones open for discussion. I'm placing Normal Clause on the table, as I feel that's best for STABmons.
bolded my responses for the sake of time.
 
This process starts now as a community-wide discussion. Once OMPL III is over I will open up a poll, and conceivably, the option with the most votes will win and become the new premise of STABmons.
I kinda disagree with this and I'm sure the STABmons player base would as well. Much like the previous BH votes, this allows any random person to have a say, people will get their friends to vote for them, etc. I say you make the decision based on the discussion. Such as, the option with the most support and better reasoning for the support of said option.
 
In option two, how does a split in status/attack mean unbanning mons like: Mega Metagross (Basically 2HKOing anything with Heavy slam), Mega Slowbro, Keldeo, Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Altaria, Porygon... Idk, boomburst still hits everything extremely hard coming from altaria, sylveon or Porygon. Aerodactyl never ran status, neither did keldeo. Diggersby is still a nuisance. It was just something I want to note.

I'm leaning towards option two, but I do support the normal clause.
 
Option 1: I feel it is completely arbitrary and don't think it should be done.

However option 2 vs normal clause is definitely something we should discuss. I remember during the STABMons Frontier, all the brains bar one had a few restrictions. TEG said no Normal type teams(Monotype). Pagoose(LC) said no new normal type moves for a Pokemon. insanelegend(UU) banned only Belly Drum. Lcass(NU)(DEATH TO YANMA) also said no new normal type moves. I mean, if four of the best players in the tier, as well as a lot of other good players all feel that normal type moves are bad, surely we should look into that?

However, at the same time, I feel limiting only normal type moves is bad.

Look at the banlist. Yes, about 50% of them were banned due to normal type moves. And even there, most of those Pokemon would remain banned. (I typed this out and added some stuff later. That stuff is in italics.)

Even if it can use only Boomburst/Extremespeed, Altaria would still be broken. It can still boost with Dragon Dance/Agility. It will still be broken with Option 2 but normal clause will make it a little less powerful.

Sylveon is bulky enough to set up and spam Boomburst. It can also run a scarf set and outspeed everything below base 114. Or it can even run Power Herb Geomancy and still destroy things with Hyper Voice. Same as Altaria.

Porygon-Z gets Nasty Plot, Agility AND Adaptability. Adding Boomburst to it still makes it broken. Same as above.

Diggersby's main set was FakeSpeed/BellySpeed. True. But it could function perfectly well with only Extremespeed. It too gets Swords Dance and Agility. It also gets Precipice Blades and the elemental punches. While it will certainly be nerfed, it will still be a top threat. Same as above.

And so we come to Loppunny. It's fast enough to run SubSmash + Drain Punch and Return. It can still run FakeSpeed. I don't see it being unbanned either. Same as above.

Now for the rest of the Pokemon. Keldeo and Mega Aerodactyl aren't going to be affected regardless of any of the options and so can be ignored. Normal clause has no effect.

Kyurem-B was broken because it already has huge stats, it gets physical Ice STAB AND Dragon Dance. Option 2 would make Kyu-B a little less broken. Normal clause wouldn't affect it.

Mega Slowbro, I believe was broken due to its insane bulk, ability to set up on half the meta and ignore crits. The only thing it really gains is Stored Power. So again, both options are irrelevant.

Mega Metagross, Shift Gear + Heavy Slam is ridiculous. Option 2 nerfs it. Normal clause has no effect.

So if we apply option 2, we manage to do something about 7/10 of the bans. On the other hand, Normal clause affects only 5/10.

Then you come to the top threats of the current meta(Note that I'm saying top threats, not broken things only.): Darkrai, Braviary, Kangaskhan, Sableye, Landorus-T, Mega Scizor, Aegislash, Serperior, Thundurus and Tyranitar:

Darkrai: The only thing it really gains is a slightly stronger STAB and for that one dude that loves ruining my games, Topsy Turvy. Neither clause affects it.

Braviary: It gets Swords Dance so if it uses Option 2, it won't really be changed. Normal clause nerfs it a lot. Option 2 barely affects it.
Kangaskhan: Same as above except using option 2 means it can't use Lovely Kiss. See above.
Sableye: Neither clause affects it.
Landorus-T: With option 2, it loses Roost but still gains two strong STABs. Normal clause has no effect.
Mega Scizor: Option 2 nerfs it. Normal clause has no effect.
Aegislash: Doesn't really change all that much. Normal clause has no effect.
Serperior: It gets Spore. Unaffected by both clauses.
Tyranitar: Gets Diamond Storm and Sucker Punch. Unaffected by both clauses.
Thundurus: Gets Oblivion Wing and Bolt Strike. Unaffected by both clauses.

Now here, option 2 affects 4/10(It affects them all but only 4 of them get any sort of nerf) while normal clause affects 2/10.

Basically, normal clause nerfs only the normal type Pokemon but leaves Pokemon of other types which become stronger/more viable thanks to it.

Option 2 affects all Pokemon equally. But to be entirely honest, I dislike it. It only benefits Pokemon which have access to strong setup moves/strong attacks as they can simply pick one option and sweep. Stats are simply a bonus. But out of all the suggestions so far, I feel it's the best.

tl;dr: Fuck Yanma

Edit: On the topic of voting, I'd like it if only people who've played the meta for a while vote. I certainly don't have anything against new players and welcome it. But suppose I wanted a certain option 2 win, I could easily get a bunch of people to come vote for it. I propose an eligibility thingie. Like the person should have either won at least 10 matches or played 20 matches to vote. I'm not really a fan of the mini-council idea as it would exclude newer players.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
While I may post my thoughts on this issue later, I just want to encourage everyone to build a team for both of these options! I don't know what other people in the OMs room will do, but I'll definitely be applying either of these clauses to some of the STABmons tours I host, so that people can get a grasp of the metagame. I'm not necessarily saying I don't think they'll be OP, but maybe Metagross Mega, Sylveon and Porygon-Z aren't OP without Shell Smash or Shift Gear. Sure, they're still incredibly powerful, but maybe the lack of these moves makes them just bad enough to be able to handle. Maybe they'd rather choose for a good set-up move and forgo Boomburst or Heavy Slam. I think it'll be interesting to experiment with, and although they won't be allowed in the tours I'm going to host yet, I also encourage people to actually challenge people to custom games using these Pokemon. You don't even have to build two teams, since you can just replace a similar mon on your old team. Sure it may not be the perfect fit, but it's just friendly testing.

tl;dr, I'll definitely make a team, and I hope everyone does as well. I feel we need to have tested both options to judge them well when we can decide on it. Otherwise it'll stay theorymonning!
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
While I may post my thoughts on this issue later, I just want to encourage everyone to build a team for both of these options! I don't know what other people in the OMs room will do, but I'll definitely be applying either of these clauses to some of the STABmons tours I host, so that people can get a grasp of the metagame. I'm not necessarily saying I don't think they'll be OP, but maybe Metagross Mega, Sylveon and Porygon-Z aren't OP without Shell Smash or Shift Gear. Sure, they're still incredibly powerful, but maybe the lack of these moves makes them just bad enough to be able to handle. Maybe they'd rather choose for a good set-up move and forgo Boomburst or Heavy Slam. I think it'll be interesting to experiment with, and although they won't be allowed in the tours I'm going to host yet, I also encourage people to actually challenge people to custom games using these Pokemon. You don't even have to build two teams, since you can just replace a similar mon on your old team. Sure it may not be the perfect fit, but it's just friendly testing.

tl;dr, I'll definitely make a team, and I hope everyone does as well. I feel we need to have tested both options to judge them well when we can decide on it. Otherwise it'll stay theorymonning!
actually, they still will be op imho, sylv and pz both get boosting moves in the form of calm mind/nasty plot, and although they cant stop offensive teams anymore, they completely obliderate any defensive/balance team that hopes to be viable.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 320-378 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 352-416 (89.5 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
-2 252 SpA Pixie Plate Porygon-Z Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Pixie Plate Porygon-Z Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 306-362 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
allthough it wont be capable of completely demolishing both types of teams, it will literally make stall impossible to run.

sylveon however, is a lot more tame, but tbh, i still think warrents its banning.

+1 252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 222-262 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Earth Plate Sylveon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 246-289 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Quagsire: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Guys, this isn't about making the old banned mons usable again. This is more about making it a possibility for us to have a stable metagame. So far, I see nothing that would suggest that option one would stabilize the metagame. Its completely arbitrary, but also heavily favors mons that already get setup moves with nothing else being able to generally compete. Option Two gets more potential setup users and allows everything to have a chance to shine if it already has the tools it needs on one side or the other, which is what most useful mons already have. Option 3, Unfixable's normal clause, could end even worse. We basically see the end of fakespeed, which would make this a linked type metagame - pack quagsire/clefable on every team just to not get 6-0'd by x sweeper. I really don't like it being a somewhat more complex ban as well, and it seems just as arbitrary as option one. No, let's stick with Option 2.

Remember that whatever option ends up happening will start an entirely new tier. We aren't trying to make the tier balanced in one fell swoop; its not about what is best for the current tier. In the new one, we will start everything from scratch. Aegislash and greninja will be back in ubers, Altaria will be back in this meta, etc. This is fine, whatever is OP will still get banned. I don't see why our option has to make us "as close to balanced right off the bat" as possible.
 
As everyone mentioned option 2 is the best since it creates some varity you can learn all attacking and status moves but not both say scizor can learn shift gear and gear grind but can't use them both and considering stabmons relies mostly on setup it stops that which I find great
 
I personally prefer option 2, because I think it addresses the core of the issue successfully. Powerful boosting moves don't break the meta, powerful attacking moves don't break the meta, but the combination of the two goes bad places. There'll still be cases where the versatility is too much or where they suffer only marginally from being limited in this way, but a lot of the best/broken Pokémon in STABmons are casually benefiting from both ends at the same time, and it means the gains they get from the meta are explosive.

Note that, for instance, Fire types have not been banned in STABmons. V-Create and Blue Flare are cool and all, but they're just raw power. If a Fire type's secondary type provides no setup, they don't get any new setup. It limits how ridiculous they can be.

Honestly, I actually like the second choice. I think it would genuinely improve the metagame and also produce its own interesting choices, rather than just "patching" STABmons.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Option 2 is probably the best option out of the three suggested. It fixes most of the issues that people have with the meta, since mons that use set-up don't get access to crazy STABs. I still think a lot of the banned mons will probably stay banned (such as M-Altaria, Sylveon, M-Lopunny, Pory-Z, and Kyu-B), but that's fine. With this, you either get crazy set-up or crazy power - but not both. Overall a new and fresh way to look at the meta (although I will personally miss the old meta - rip Roost + Brave Bird Lando-T ;_;) - a really solid option.

As for the other one, well, I think Option 1 is too arbitrary, and Option 2 just seems better. Meanwhile I don't think Normal Clause is a good idea at all - it really doesn't help much. Sure, it nerfs Smash and BD set-up a bit, but it buffs other set-up since you can't FakeSpeed things anymore. Not to mention it's also a bit arbitrary, since it only targets Normal-types. Sure, Normal-types and Normal moves are a huge part of set-up, but considering at the moment the two most broken set-up mons (imho) don't use normal set-up (M-Scizor and Togekiss) I honestly don't see how a Normal Clause helps.
 
I agree with the flaws that both Lcass4919 and unfixable made about the two prospective options, as well as lcass's opinions on the normal clause, particularly because most things currently banned or considered as broken either aren't a normal type, or only require the addition of one normal move. The idea that some type of drastic change or overhaul is necessary in this tier, especially in one that has no dominant or centralizing archetype, pokemon, or even playstyle (stall is without doubt still a viable thing to run, you just have to be more creative than just fattys + Unaware. Same goes for HO and suicide leads and setup), is absurd, and even more so when it hasn't yet even seen the drastic change of Uber bans that are about to come into place. Honestly, the meta is very stable as is, and the perception of this as an ultra fast meta, where the first sweeper always wins is completely inaccurate. That's not to say that having access to powerful setup options and reliable sweepers aren't the most common way for a game too end. Of the 8 OMPL STABmons matches however, half of them featured a player using full stall, and it broke even on how many games stall won.

I'd really like us to consider more that the meta IS in fact in a fine place as it stands, and that no change is necessary. All of the proposed changes so far mentioned do more than just "fix" the tier, but actually change the fundamental construction of the premise of the metagame itself.
 
I agree with the flaws that both Lcass4919 and unfixable made about the two prospective options, as well as lcass's opinions on the normal clause, particularly because most things currently banned or considered as broken either aren't a normal type, or only require the addition of one normal move. The idea that some type of drastic change or overhaul is necessary in this tier, especially in one that has no dominant or centralizing archetype, pokemon, or even playstyle (stall is without doubt still a viable thing to run, you just have to be more creative than just fattys + Unaware. Same goes for HO and suicide leads and setup), is absurd, and even more so when it hasn't yet even seen the drastic change of Uber bans that are about to come into place. Honestly, the meta is very stable as is, and the perception of this as an ultra fast meta, where the first sweeper always wins is completely inaccurate. That's not to say that having access to powerful setup options and reliable sweepers aren't the most common way for a game too end. Of the 8 OMPL STABmons matches however, half of them featured a player using full stall, and it broke even on how many games stall won.

I'd really like us to consider more that the meta IS in fact in a fine place as it stands, and that no change is necessary. All of the proposed changes so far mentioned do more than just "fix" the tier, but actually change the fundamental construction of the premise of the metagame itself.
Honestly, I really agree with this. I know I proposed a Normal Clause, and I support it, but I'd rather us not have anything done at all. Ellipse brings up solid points all-around and has the evidence to back it up (see: OMPL). The mentality of quick draw situation is really not entirely true.

Instead of a Normal Clause, I was thinking of the idea of a limitation such as "every Pokemon only receives access to one additional move based off of their typings," but then you realize that's Sketchmons with a limit. There isn't anything really to choose from except the proposed options in the OP, and my suggestion of a normal Clause which doesn't seem to be popular. If it comes to voting, I would like to see nothing happen.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Guys, this isn't about making the old banned mons usable again. This is more about making it a possibility for us to have a stable metagame. So far, I see nothing that would suggest that option one would stabilize the metagame. Its completely arbitrary, but also heavily favors mons that already get setup moves with nothing else being able to generally compete. Option Two gets more potential setup users and allows everything to have a chance to shine if it already has the tools it needs on one side or the other, which is what most useful mons already have. Option 3, Unfixable's normal clause, could end even worse. We basically see the end of fakespeed, which would make this a linked type metagame - pack quagsire/clefable on every team just to not get 6-0'd by x sweeper. I really don't like it being a somewhat more complex ban as well, and it seems just as arbitrary as option one. No, let's stick with Option 2.

Remember that whatever option ends up happening will start an entirely new tier. We aren't trying to make the tier balanced in one fell swoop; its not about what is best for the current tier. In the new one, we will start everything from scratch. Aegislash and greninja will be back in ubers, Altaria will be back in this meta, etc. This is fine, whatever is OP will still get banned. I don't see why our option has to make us "as close to balanced right off the bat" as possible.
This this this read this!

Most importantly: We aren't trying to make the tier balanced in one fell swoop.

No matter the option, there will be bans. The idea is to have a stronger foundation from the get go.
 
This this this read this!

Most importantly: We aren't trying to make the tier balanced in one fell swoop.

No matter the option, there will be bans. The idea is to have a stronger foundation from the get go.
Yeah, probs to xJownage that was a great read. I fully support option 2 and normal clause, whichever one of those are accepted I will be pleased, though I'd prefer normal clause.
 
If our aim is to create a tier that is equipped to handle problems going forward, I am going to tentatively suggest a fourth option in the creation of a restricted move list - a list of moves that are too powerful to be used on things that don't learn them normally. In keeping with the theme of sustainability, moves could be added to this list on the basis of whether numerous Pokémon exist (or are likely to be made in the future) that are made broken with the help of the move.

I would consider this analogous to how Almost Any Ability has a list of banned abilities. Note that this does reduce the viability of some less naturally powerful 'mons, but it's either that or do some incredibly complex bans.

The three options currently on the table are, in my opinion (not as experienced as the others in this thread, but I have a solid number of STABmons games under my belt nonetheless), insufficient for dealing with either current problems, potential future concerns, or both.

Nobody likes Option One, myself included, so I won't bother addressing it.

Option Two is a bit more complex than I like, but even putting that aside, lots of Pokémon that already either possess the powerful setup or very strong STABs that would let them comfortably take the other option. This has been elaborated upon upthread. What's more, we can reasonably expect Gamefreak to put out even more Pokémon that fit this description. It doesn't meet the criteria of providing a solid foundation for the future.

Normal Clause may or may not be nice, but it's very clearly incapable of addressing anything that doesn't get Normal-type moves or doesn't use them, and somewhat shares the problems of Option 2.

Ellipse makes some good points about the tier as it stands, but can't comment in future developments -- what happens next gen? We don't know for sure, but some preemptive action will isolate us from having to deal with all but the edge cases, I suspect.

My very, very preliminary idea for a restricted move list is: Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Boomburst, Techno Blast, Dark Void, Shift Gear, Spore, and Fake Out (for being a bit OTT with Espeed, which I would rather keep). Potential additions being Extreme Speed (in which case Fake Out could come back), Stored Power, Swords Dance, Geomancy, and Thousand Arrows (when released).

I don't want to go through each present ban and problem Pokemon, but I hope that this helps illustrate what I think such a list would do for the meta. The stuff on it either has a history of contributing to brokenness, could do so under completely plausible conditions, or both, and without these moves and/or moves like these, the tier could likely avoid dealing with a lot of imbalance and ridiculousness preemptively.

May edit later. I'm on mobile, and can't easily review the whole post atm.
 
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Yeah, actually, I too am in favour of Akumeoy's suggestion. It allows us to use Pokemon which would otherwise be banned but at the same time nerf things which are too powerful. As for the list itself, the only ones I feel need a ban are Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Boomburst, Techno Blast(Maybe this. I don't know how the power difference between this and boomburst is.), Shift Gear, Extremespeed and Geomancy. Everything else is entirely manageable.
 
I don't like that "restricted" move list option. It kinda ruins the point of STABmons and would lead us to more like OU. It's also why no one like the first option. None of the moves need ban (except maybe Chatter). The abuser is what makes it broken (-ates, Sheer Force, Protean, Adaptability come to mind). That's what bans are for.

I'm saying this because we have never banned moves in other metas outside of uncompetitive ones like Chatter or Assist (in BH or Inheritance). We would've banned Extremespeed and Boomburst in Inheritance or BH, but we didn't. If FakeSpeeding is part of the meta, so be it. I think option two is the best option here because it still allows you to access every move (which is the point of STABmons) while balancing the broken combinations.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Yay I have some time to respond to posts in the thread!



Here's why: Talk about arbitrary! At least one can make the case with Option 1 the premise of STABmons remains intact and if anything, plays into the name of the metagame. S-T-A-B. Same Type Attack Bonus. Setup doesn't gain STAB (neither does status but I digress.) The Normal Clause guts one group unfairly assuming it is the "root of all sin." Yes, in the frontiers (and when STABmons hybrids were popular in LC/NU et al) Normal moves tend to get limited. However, those are entirely different metagames where Normals do overpower everything else beyond a shadow of a doubt. A Normal Clause does nothing to address other strong types like Steel, Bug, Fairy, and Dark, and it offers no groundwork for future, unknown additions other than Normal-types remain shafted. What happens when Dark gets a Shell Smash or Steel gets an Extreme Speed? What we need is a comprehensive roadmap. Normals have already lost a lot of the footing they had last generation and I suspect that the pattern we've seen lately with new moves (Oblivion Wing, Geomancy, Precipice Blades, Parting Shot, (when released, Steam Eruption, Thousand Arrows)), other types will get better and better.
  • RE voting/polls
We have time to develop a method for this later. If the idea of a poll is unpopular, the council will brainstorm another method.
  • RE Ellipse 's rejection of any change
Note in the OP how I said the first team to setup often wins, not always. However, setup is and always will be the dominant playstyle in STABmons with the current rules. Why do you think Unaware Quagsire and Clefable are in A rank? Why do you think FakeSpeed is so important? Why do you think Sableye is ubiquitous with the metagame thanks to Parting Shot, Topsy-Turvy, and Dark Void, all tools it uses to weaken or stop setup? Pretending that STABmons is conducive to stall as much as it is to offense assumes stall is viable across the ladder when we know it is best played at the top (which would explain why it has been common in OMPL--those are top players). Also "All of the proposed changes so far mentioned do more than just "fix" the tier, but actually change the fundamental construction of the premise of the metagame itself." Yes, that is correct. This is not a band-aid; it's an amputation.
We have that. It's called Sketch and Chatter, two moves deemed so uncompetitive they were purged from anything not named Smeargle and Chatot. The reason I don't want to rely on a move banlist (similar to AAA's ability banlist) is because we have a little more flexibility with restricting move access than AAA does with restricting abilities. Option 2 is the best example of this: it still grants access to every move (bar Sketch and Chatter) to the respective Pokemon of that type, which as it stands follows the current STABmons premise while adding a simple caveat. I'd much rather we keep as many moves on the table as possible while using individual Pokemon bans to weed out the worst offenders that are just broken no matter what.


As some people have pointed out there are Pokemon that will be re-banned regardless of the option we choose, but (as xJownage so poignantly explained) the goal here is to reevaluate the entire structure of STABmons. I'm fine if we have to re-ban Keldeo and Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Slowbro. If they are inherently broken with just one or two tweaks, then so be it. These options are here to craft a metagame that feels more ... manageable ... from the get go while preemptively setting ourselves up for future generations.
 

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