Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Not a ton to say but things are definitely better post Pagos ban as expected. Some thoughts:

::Serperior::
We knew this mon would be good, and it definitely is, but I think well-balanced by its low initial special attack, the poor offensive typing of its main boosting option, and the fact that there is plenty of speed control. Tera Ground gives it SE coverage at the expense of not boosting it further, whereas stellar Tera pairs nicely with Contrary but doesn’t offer any SE hits so imo requires that opps be weakened a bit more. Personally I think Enamorus is better with stellar and Serp should just stick to regular Tera. Glare is basically just 100% accurate TWave bc it’s only advantage is paralyzing grounds, who weren’t switching into Serp anyway. Good mon.

::Darkrai::
I didn’t wade into the discussion pre-drop because I knew there would be no convincing opponents of freeing it on the basis of their emotionally-charged arguments. However my initial thoughts have proven correct at least initially. Sleep is a non-factor for it and it finds itself missing out on any one “perfect” set. I’m sure it’ll do better when balance becomes more prominent but then again that’s just true for any setup sweeper with decent speed. Good mon that’s comfortable at this power level but nothing amazing.

Hazards
I specifically waited until DLC2 to make final judgments. I think Go itself is perfectly fine. It’s a hot take but I think the real issue are hazards themselves, and they have been since Gen…6 maybe? Every new iteration of the metagame is increasingly complex in a way that individual aspects of the game only remain balanced if they have specific downsides or opportunity costs that require thoughtful play to manage. With hazards this is not the case as clicking any one of them is an almost entirely risk-free play and requires no thought. We saw this with the rise of offensive spikes on Greninja, who mitigated any risk (whether bringing the wrong set in the builder or choosing the wrong move mid-battle) by simply clicking spikes - guaranteed progress. Let alone the fact that hazards are stackable upon each other and themselves - even Stealth Rock which only needs to be once guarantees damage indiscriminately over multiple turns. Counterplay exists in Defog and Rapid Spin sure, but this is ALWAYS a situation where the opponent is on the back foot as the hazard user can then exploit the use of these low-power moves that have otherwise no effect or relevance in battle. Gen 8 is regarded as one of the slowest gens thanks to the introduction of boots, an item deemed almost necessary even for mons that have no inherent weakness to hazards.

If it were up to me, a simple hazard clause where only one type of hazard is allowed on the field at a time would lessen the oppresiveness of hazards while still maintaining their competitive value. It’s an unlikely outcome though, I realize that.

Anyway, interesting meta so far. Can’t wait to see how it continues to develop.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
you want to talk tiering policy, please post it here Policy Review |
Bro, only badged users or non badged with approved authorization can post in policy review, and the mayority of the people who frequent here are not badged

to put a topic for convo, what are you experimenting with right now? Are you min maxing a style? Or are you grabbing whatever makes your eyes shiny
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Bro, only badged users or non badged with approved authorization can post in policy review, and the mayority of the people who frequent here are not badged

to put a topic for convo, what are you experimenting with right now? Are you min maxing a style? Or are you grabbing whatever makes your eyes shiny
gouging fire has me head over heels right now lol trying out almost every set possible. rlly love the defensive sets esp with burning bulwark because it's massive defensive set lets it sit in on a lot of threats and whittle teams down.

primarina is super fun as well cause of all the fun stuff that liquid voice + coverage can do. boom is a great friend to prima and it appreciates all the recovery it can get

and yes ive been testing out fatter teams in an offensive environment cause its fun trying to dismantle offence.
 
to put a topic for convo, what are you experimenting with right now? Are you min maxing a style? Or are you grabbing whatever makes your eyes shiny
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Earthquake
- Dual Wingbeat

I still just love using offensive Gliscor, it's the most fun way to utilise the mon for me.

Hydrapple @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power

I also rly like using AV Hydrapple because Fickle Beam makes me giggle when I see "Hydrapple is going all out for this attack"
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Bro, only badged users or non badged with approved authorization can post in policy review, and the mayority of the people who frequent here are not badged

to put a topic for convo, what are you experimenting with right now? Are you min maxing a style? Or are you grabbing whatever makes your eyes shiny
I’ve been trying a bunch of different Darkrai sets and I’ve come the the conclusion that Nasty Plot is bad in this meta. Setting up is a chore and you need Life Orb which makes you even more prone to getting revenge killed. You need more balance for Nasty Plot to be worth it.

What Darkrai sets have impressed me are choice sets and its utility sets. I’ve liked sets like Sub Wisp or Sub Disable, they felt great into other HO teams. While they aren’t destroying everything in sight, sometimes chipping things while they take hazards is enough. Specs and Scarf felt solid too.
 
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Earthquake
- Dual Wingbeat

I still just love using offensive Gliscor, it's the most fun way to utilise the mon for me.

Hydrapple @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power

I also rly like using AV Hydrapple because Fickle Beam makes me giggle when I see "Hydrapple is going all out for this attack"
Swords dance AND agility on gliscor?
This does not sound very good.

Does this actually work for you?
Agility looks like a waste of a moveslot on gliscor.

Now that I think of it I can't remember the last time that anyone used this move.
 
Nasty plot spdef-invested hydrapple is the best. You survive almost any attack (including things like 2 Specs Pult Dracos in a row, Valiant and Enamorus' moonblasts, blizzards/freeze dries from Ninetales) and retaliate with a hard Fickle Beam or Hydro Pump. Then, when something comes in trying to revenge you, you switch out and are at 60% the next time with their supereffective coverage gone. Best tera imo is water since it has synergy with Hydro and reduces damage from ice moves, but surprisingly it hasn't even felt like a tera hog at all.

Unfortunately, my favorite pokemon lokix and breloom haven't shared the same fate. Every other team is a sun team, and with Gouging Flame on every single one with its 120 defense and 75% healing move, there's just no way they can get anything done. The best you can do is double switch.


ALSO ALSO, Darkrai is weirdly middling. Like seriously it just feels so weak without a boosting item. I'm not even 2HKOing flame or moth with dark pulse for Pete's sake! Life Orb nasty plot is undoubtedly the better set but is also a lot less dominant than I anticipated with the insane speed creep of this meta where there are regularly 2-3 pokemon on a team that outspeed it. The worst part is that none of the new pokemon feel insanely broken on their own, so it's probably not gonna get a lot better for it with bans.
 
Last edited:
to put a topic for convo, what are you experimenting with right now? Are you min maxing a style? Or are you grabbing whatever makes your eyes shiny
shiny eye, of course.
Day 1 was AV Primarina and CM Past-Raikou (yes, I'll need at least 3 more months to remember their names). Both funny, team didn't make much sense, almost whole team was nullified by Glowkin, and the turtle was around, but still great. I knew P-Raikou was gonna be very good, but was gladly surprised to see Primarina show a lot of potential. Still not OU-worthy probably, but good enough to deserve to appear in a stable VR.
Also used Rockpon; felt much better than Waterpon post DLC2. Both are good, but too many dragons and bulky mons that don't fear Waterpon's STABs hurt her a lot.

Day 2 was Archaludon, Hydrapple and Upper Hand Blaziken. Again, the team was too much "shiny!" to make full use of their assets, but Archaludon and Hydrapple already proved to be excellent and I think they'll stay if not by usage, definitely by viability. Hydrapple was specially great with AV as a mixed-bulk Regen mon that isn't passive and can even make niche use of Sucker Punch if needed.
Blaziken, more gimicky. Would've needed a team that was more focused on it, maybe HO. Upper Hand was surprisingly useful a couple of times, but I've always liked Sucker Punch-like mindgames, so I'm not objective.

Day 3 is when I'll throw in Deoxys-S and Latias. Wanna see how Deoxys-S feels on use and not just on the opponent's side, and Latias is one of my all-time fav mons, so looking forward to it.

My only complaint with the meta so far, really, is hazards. Most of my teams had to run Hatterene and/or Maushold to clean them up... but today I've been facing a lot of Corvs with Defog and I struggled against him. I assumed Corv's usage would be low and wouldn't have to worry about him too much, but then I realized that I've also not seen many Gholdengos due to the poor match up against many new mons.
Will try Defog Corv soon enough to see if it's now viable with Gholdengo's lower usage. Probably will face a lot of Gholdengos that day, tho.
Still, some tiering action will be needed for hazards sooner or later for this gen. Maybe it's Ban Gholdengo, maybe it's ban H-Samurott (at least Magic Bounce and Taunt would work then), maybe it's something else, but I still consider this the main problem of the meta not just today, but since Gen 9's inception.
 
I’ve been trying a bunch of different Darkrai sets and I’ve come the the conclusion that Nasty Plot is bad in this meta. Setting up is a chore and you need Life Orb which makes you even more prone to getting revenge killed. You need more balance for Nasty Plot to be worth it.
This is me trying to convince people that Raging Bolt is good just stop clicking Calm Mind and start clicking Dragon Pulse and Volt Switch.
 
shiny eye, of course.
Day 1 was AV Primarina and CM Past-Raikou (yes, I'll need at least 3 more months to remember their names). Both funny, team didn't make much sense, almost whole team was nullified by Glowkin, and the turtle was around, but still great. I knew P-Raikou was gonna be very good, but was gladly surprised to see Primarina show a lot of potential. Still not OU-worthy probably, but good enough to deserve to appear in a stable VR.
Also used Rockpon; felt much better than Waterpon post DLC2. Both are good, but too many dragons and bulky mons that don't fear Waterpon's STABs hurt her a lot.

Day 2 was Archaludon, Hydrapple and Upper Hand Blaziken. Again, the team was too much "shiny!" to make full use of their assets, but Archaludon and Hydrapple already proved to be excellent and I think they'll stay if not by usage, definitely by viability. Hydrapple was specially great with AV as a mixed-bulk Regen mon that isn't passive and can even make niche use of Sucker Punch if needed.
Blaziken, more gimicky. Would've needed a team that was more focused on it, maybe HO. Upper Hand was surprisingly useful a couple of times, but I've always liked Sucker Punch-like mindgames, so I'm not objective.

Day 3 is when I'll throw in Deoxys-S and Latias. Wanna see how Deoxys-S feels on use and not just on the opponent's side, and Latias is one of my all-time fav mons, so looking forward to it.

My only complaint with the meta so far, really, is hazards. Most of my teams had to run Hatterene and/or Maushold to clean them up... but today I've been facing a lot of Corvs with Defog and I struggled against him. I assumed Corv's usage would be low and wouldn't have to worry about him too much, but then I realized that I've also not seen many Gholdengos due to the poor match up against many new mons.
Will try Defog Corv soon enough to see if it's now viable with Gholdengo's lower usage. Probably will face a lot of Gholdengos that day, tho.
Still, some tiering action will be needed for hazards sooner or later for this gen. Maybe it's Ban Gholdengo, maybe it's ban H-Samurott (at least Magic Bounce and Taunt would work then), maybe it's something else, but I still consider this the main problem of the meta not just today, but since Gen 9's inception.
What's the set you are running on Archaludon? I think it has a solid role and a fair number of good traits, but I'm worried the metagame is too hazard focused for it to stay relevant.

I"ve had opposite experience against Corv. I've been using a fair number of hazard centric teams without Dengo and Corv's been fairly easy to take advantage of. Defog is a reactive move and pressuring Corv is quite easy with either setup or hard hits from a threat like Meowscarada (which is dealing a lot of damage combined from the damage Corv is taking from Rocks). I do agree that hazards in general are the biggest concern current though, but as so far, I too have been seeing far less Dengos because the likes of Darkrai, Gouging Fire, and Volcarona that can take advantage of it. All these threats are also bad for Corv, but Corv has a few nice MUs into Skarm and Glisc that give it an edge.

:Smeargle: This Pokemon is really good. With GF adding more broken moves each gen, Smeargle winds up being one of the biggest benefactors since it adds those broken moves to its repertoire. Ceasless Edge and Stone Axe are massive buffs, letting it setup hazards in the face of tricks such as Taunt, and it can pack some additional new utility options in Mortal Spin for spinning vs Tera Ghosters. I think this pokemon does really well specifically vs the other common leads in the meta like Ninetales-A.
 
Last edited:
^
Archaludon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock

Hits hard enough without much investment, and like to invest EVs more in defense than in offense anyway.
SR utility felt good, but most of the time I was throwing it into physical offensive threats and counter-killing, so was considering to replace it for more coverage, or even ID. Worth running it if you're not running any other rocker, or they're strapped for other moves, but don't think it is nor should be Archa's main role.
Again, mostly a "shiny!" thing I wanted to try out; it's not min-maxed at all and many building decisions were made based on "feeling", so don't trust it too much.
 
My only complaint with the meta so far, really, is hazards. Most of my teams had to run Hatterene and/or Maushold to clean them up... but today I've been facing a lot of Corvs with Defog and I struggled against him. I assumed Corv's usage would be low and wouldn't have to worry about him too much, but then I realized that I've also not seen many Gholdengos due to the poor match up against many new mons.
Will try Defog Corv soon enough to see if it's now viable with Gholdengo's lower usage. Probably will face a lot of Gholdengos that day, tho.
Still, some tiering action will be needed for hazards sooner or later for this gen. Maybe it's Ban Gholdengo, maybe it's ban H-Samurott (at least Magic Bounce and Taunt would work then), maybe it's something else, but I still consider this the main problem of the meta not just today, but since Gen 9's inception.
Would Cinccino be an acceptable substitute for Maushold? Cincinno may be slightly more frail, but it's also faster and has significantly higher attack, making it more threatening (outside of Normal STAB, anyway, as Population Bomb is absurd) and thus it's easier to force a foe into a situation where you can get a free Tidy Up.

And yes, Cinccino does in fact get Tidy Up.
 
What usage do you all think Tusk is going to reach?

It's got so many tools now. 4mms syndrome be damned, it can fit just about anything depending on your team structure and needs. You could run any of: rspin, bulk up, close combat, quake/headlong, stomping tantrum/temper flare, knock, ice spinner, edge/head smash, supercell slam, megahorn, zen headbutt, and roar.

Seriously, you name coverage your team is missing, tusk seems to have it. Ghold now folds if you go the temper route. If your team is lacking a knocker, tusk to the rescue. Water types don't wall you unless you want them to. Hell, you can run a physical boltbeam!

Not sure which set people are starting to like the most, but I laughed pretty hard running a booster supercell/headlong/temper/ice spinner set alongside cinderace. It feels like a physical sandy shocks that doesn't need tera.

EDIT: also with temper flare out there now, scarf ghold seems pretty necessary; make it rain still ohkos tusk
 
(about Cincinno) : haven't tried it, but I'd give it a hard no.
Population Bomb is not just an accessory for Maushold's Tidy Up utility; it's the very reason why it's viable. The fact that it can OHKO (well, 10HKO) almost anything that doesn't resist it and sweep a full team clean at +2 is what makes opponents have to respect it as soon as it hits the battlefield, and why it even works against opponents that don't have/rely on hazards.
While I think Cincinno's speed tier and theoretical access to HBD (Maushold relies too much on Lens to be reliable) makes them better than Maushold at Hazard-Removal specifically, the loss in immediate firepower makes it too underwhelming at all other tasks and timings, and thus too "niche within its niche" to be viable.
But that's just my opinion; in short, I've seen Maushold casually sweep teams and murder defensive mons like Gliscor, Glowking and even Ting-Lu too often to consider sacrificing that trait. The higher attack is irrelevant: you need a broken move like Population Bomb to be threatening at all for current OU power levels.
 
^
Archaludon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock

Hits hard enough without much investment, and like to invest EVs more in defense than in offense anyway.
SR utility felt good, but most of the time I was throwing it into physical offensive threats and counter-killing, so was considering to replace it for more coverage, or even ID. Worth running it if you're not running any other rocker, or they're strapped for other moves, but don't think it is nor should be Archa's main role.
Again, mostly a "shiny!" thing I wanted to try out; it's not min-maxed at all and many building decisions were made based on "feeling", so don't trust it too much.
i've been experimenting with a similar set, but with av and dragon tail instead of lefties and stealth rock. works quite well as a phazer in my experience, especially partnered with other spikers/rockers, and very much helps with archaludon's poor spdef. the trade-off of no lefties healing can be noticeable at times, but i'm also considering wish support to offset that
 
Swords dance AND agility on gliscor?
This does not sound very good.

Does this actually work for you?
Agility looks like a waste of a moveslot on gliscor.
Yeah! Finding the opportunity to get your boosts isn't too difficult in the current landscape of the meta. I took the idea from SDK03's RMT with Double Dance Gliscor.

Now that I think of it I can't remember the last time that anyone used this move.
:walking-wake: has used an agility set on previous occasions.

Walking Wake @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Water
Modest Nature
- Agility
- Hydro Steam
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrowr
 
(On Archaludon) Also considered it, specially the AV part, but the main goal of Archaludon is not to stay on powerful special attackers, and Leftovers recovery on a mon with such high bulk and the ability to increase it passively was too much to give up on. The investment on SpD is mostly there to have the "option" of staying on some special attackers, or surviving if necessary; commiting a full item slot felt like too much. Definitely a valid option, but maybe for a different set. Dragon Tail, though, is a solid candidate for pretty much any set and definitely worth considering.
Plus, my last attempts at making viable teams with Wish support failed pretty bad: Alomomola felt like it was too passive, too abusable and more often than not, there just wasn't any good timing to pass the wish. And Clefable just has way too many better options to pick Wish. Unless I'm missing any new, good Wish-passer, I don't think it's worth it. Healing Wish on something like Scarf Latias as a fourth move, something that is "an extra option, not what it's meant to do" feels better to fit for me.
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
Cinccino still sucks even with Loaded Dice.
>Too frail to switch in or set up Tidy Up
>Vulnerable to hazards
>Walled by moderately bulky Pokemon even after a Tidy Up
>The 90% accuracy on multi-hit moves are actually like 50% I swear to god
>If an Archaludon switches in on your attacks it's gonna tear you a new asshole

Here's the set I used by the way:
Cinccino @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Tidy Up
 
Cinccino still sucks even with Loaded Dice.
>Too frail to switch in or set up Tidy Up
>Vulnerable to hazards
>Walled by moderately bulky Pokemon even after a Tidy Up
>The 90% accuracy on multi-hit moves are actually like 50% I swear to god
>If an Archaludon switches in on your attacks it's gonna tear you a new asshole

Here's the set I used by the way:
Cinccino @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Tidy Up
Back off my Randbats Mid Mons
1702924596161.png
 
Cinccino still sucks even with Loaded Dice.
>Too frail to switch in or set up Tidy Up
>Vulnerable to hazards
>Walled by moderately bulky Pokemon even after a Tidy Up
>The 90% accuracy on multi-hit moves are actually like 50% I swear to god
>If an Archaludon switches in on your attacks it's gonna tear you a new asshole

Here's the set I used by the way:
Cinccino @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Tidy Up
Cinccino does get Triple Axel (which is very powerful with Technician) and Knock Off though, not that they make it much more viable in OU because Population Bomb is stupidly strong against neutral targets.

On another note I have been using a physical (Knock Off/Heavy Slam/Dragon Tail/Any filler depending on team) Goodra-Hisui with AV lately and found it to be very useful against Serperior and Rillaboom + the various powerful special attackers that are popular right now.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 9, Guests: 34)

Top