Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[RaikouLover]

Rain and sun are too fishy in general, you've got too many outs vs them via Tera, strong speed control options like Deo-S, Dragapult, Booster Valiant, etc. and whatever benefits Pelipper and Torkoal do bring don't outway the cons of using a generally useless mon. I feel Sand doesn't have this issue to the same extent since both Hippo / Tar pack more utility in the metagame than either Torkoal or Pelipper, which are both Rocks weak, locked to a bad item, and more limited in what they can reasonably deal with. Sun is espicially fishy since you are buffing the opponent's paradox mons like Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire, making them significantly more difficult to deal with. An issue I personally have is that these styles don't really have room for good pivots. Really the best you are getting is something like Eject button Hat or Eject button Treads, which are solid but 1 time use and not enough.

Torkoal isn’t as bad as you say. It gets both spin and rocks. It is physically impervious and the tech is to actually use its stronger attacks and try Body Press. Torkoal actually 1v1s Tyranitar which is comical. It beats Kingambit unless Gambit is 5 fallen. It’s good into Iron Valiant as well. With Tera, you can use Torkoal to check pretty much any physical threat you need it to.

For sun-specific pivots, they do exist. For slow pivots there is Landorus-T, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Raging Bolt, and Slither Wing. For fast pivots, there is Landorus-T, Roaring Moon, Cinderace, and Slither Wing.

 

[Heatranator]

Torkoal isn’t as bad as you say. It gets both spin and rocks. It is physically impervious and the tech is to actually use its stronger attacks and try Body Press. Torkoal actually 1v1s Tyranitar which is comical. It beats Kingambit unless Gambit is 5 fallen. It’s good into Iron Valiant as well. With Tera, you can use Torkoal to check pretty much any physical threat you need it to.

For sun-specific pivots, they do exist. For slow pivots there is Landorus-T, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Raging Bolt, and Slither Wing. For fast pivots, there is Landorus-T, Roaring Moon, Cinderace, and Slither Wing.

Spin on torkoal is just moreso "Idk what else to put on here, this looks good", so sun teams have to use something else like hatterene, or play at a truly breathtaking, neckbreaking pace, due to torkoal's weakness to hazards. Another thing is that the physical defense is good, but with no recovery it is really hard to abuse it.
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Torkoal: 116-140 (33.8 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even something like gliscor has super effective coverage against it. In a tier with so many grounds, being weak to them you have to either be able to ko them before the can hit you, or have another trait that overwrites the weakness. Body press is a cool tech, so I am interested in that. It's decent into valiant, though most have knock off which torkoal is very fearful of.
While tera does help torkoal check things, you're using your tera on torkoal... I don't think that's a good use of tera, since so many other sun mons benefit much more from tera'ing, being forced to use it on torkoal is unideal. It would morseo be a last ditch effort.
The main issue with torkoal is that it is hazards weak and it has no reliable recovery, which means it can't be the tank it wants to be. Pelipper simply having roost and being immune to spikes is massive, since it means it can come in more often. Torkoal can come in maybe 3-5 times a game, which may be enough sometimes, but long term is not going to work.

 

[Heatranator]

So this is my main team I use for Showdown battles, it was kind of cobbled together. Dream Team (pokepast.es) This is the most recent rendition of it.
Can you guys rate it please. Thank you.

Uh, this is the gen SV forum.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/national-dex.731/
This is the natinal dex forum.

 

[sire clod]

this happened in the OU roomtour today. rain doubters in shambles rn...
semifinals: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088949754
finals: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088954383

Surely if this fucking goofy ass team could pull through, not all hope is lost for rain. In particular, as I've already voiced in the VR thread, I think overqwil is extremely slept on and allows rain to deal better with mons like gambit, rillaboom and raging bolt which are usually 6-0 matchups. I'm not gonna repeat everything I said there but tldr: rain might still have some bright days ahead. In fact I think it's probably still better than sun rn.

[Gen 9] OU: Coup Critique YT vs. sire clod - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) Allow me to contribute this salty goofball who didn't understand that crit doesn't matter because you got WUGGED

edit: (252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Aqua Jet (60 BP after tera) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) silly guy

 

[Heatranator]

I love seeing people using overqwil, mon's hella underrated on rain.

 

[sire clod]

I love seeing people using overqwil, mon's hella underrated on rain.

In conclusion after using that team, shits ass. But I did go 3-0 with it (mostly because Overqwil and Wugtrio combined give my Kingambit a 20% boost to its attack, great team players)

 

[RaikouLover]

Spin on torkoal is just moreso "Idk what else to put on here, this looks good", so sun teams have to use something else like hatterene, or play at a truly breathtaking, neckbreaking pace, due to torkoal's weakness to hazards. Another thing is that the physical defense is good, but with no recovery it is really hard to abuse it.

While tera does help torkoal check things, you're using your tera on torkoal... I don't think that's a good use of tera, since so many other sun mons benefit much more from tera'ing, being forced to use it on torkoal is unideal. It would morseo be a last ditch effort.

The main issue with torkoal is that it is hazards weak and it has no reliable recovery, which means it can't be the tank it wants to be. Pelipper simply having roost and being immune to spikes is massive, since it means it can come in more often. Torkoal can come in maybe 3-5 times a game, which may be enough sometimes, but long term is not going to work.

If you have to come in more than 3-5 times a game using weather, you either misplayed or the team is bad. No one is saying Torkoal is some high caliber mon. However, it is not some unviable shit mon. I’d say it is certainly better this Gen than in Gen 7 and Gen 8.

No one is ever “forced” to use Tera on a Torkoal. I simply brought it up because “in a pinch” is the best way to defensively use Tera. You don’t ever go into battle planning use Tera on freaking Torkoal. Tera on Torkoal can be an emergency stop to things like Kingambit, Zamazenta, or Bulk Up Great Tusk.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Overqwil deserves more love and attention on Rain teams. Makes me wonder if any lower tier Pokemon could contribute to an already existing archetype and make it better in a way that no one thought about before.

 

[Heatranator]

If you have to come in more than 3-5 times a game using weather, you either misplayed or the team is bad. No one is saying Torkoal is some high caliber mon. However, it is not some unviable shit mon. I’d say it is certainly better this Gen than in Gen 7 and Gen 8.

No one is ever “forced” to use Tera on a Torkoal. I simply brought it up because “in a pinch” is the best way to defensively use Tera. You don’t ever plan to use Tera on Torkoal. That would be asinine. Tera on Torkoal can be an emergency stop to things like Kingambit, Zamazenta, or Bulk Up Great Tusk.

Okay, that's fair. I do think that it is better than Gen 7 and Gen 8 (we don't talk about zard-y). It's not the worst thing, just that its not as great as it could be or as good as peli.
I would say that 3-5 times is about the amount of times weather setters have to come in, though of course even that amount can be difficult for torkoal to come in since they most likely will be hitting you hard when the sun ends. That means you are taking roughly 25% + 10%-30% every time, which is roughly three times you can come in if we are doing min calcs and rocks are staying on the field.
If you can get hazards off the field, than torkoal can be amazing, it's just that you have to invest either in heavy anti-hazard measures i.e. another rapid spinner in tusk which is decent and hatterene, or play at such a fast pace they can't get hazards down. The second option is much more difficult than say pelipper because torkoal is a momentum sink. It can't pivot out and thus any momentum you gained would be lost.

(mostly because Overqwil and Wugtrio combined give my Kingambit a 20% boost to its attack, great team players)

This actually gives me the idea to try out destiny bond overqwil. Fast destiny bond catches a lot of people off guard, so it could be fun.

 

[RaikouLover]

In conclusion after using that team, shits ass. But I did go 3-0 with it (mostly because Overqwil and Wugtrio combined give my Kingambit a 20% boost to its attack, great team players)

Wugtrio? What the heck is that mon doing in OU?

My favorite rain mon is Banded Sam-H. That thing SLAPS!

 

[Heatranator]

Wugtrio? What the heck is that mon doing in OU?

My favorite rain mon is Banded Sam-H. That thing SLAPS!

Amatuer, try banded crawdaunt. Much more powerful.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem in Rain: 312-369 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpness Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem in Rain: 290-342 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I swear to god, if anybody says 'but ceaseless edge sets up spikes, so hamurott is better', I don't think you have a sense of humour.

 

[j0nathan]

Wugtrio? What the heck is that mon doing in OU?

My favorite rain mon is Banded Sam-H. That thing SLAPS!

I still remember watching a room tour where a rain team with golduck won. (I think arch was still allowed)
Golducks movepool is pretty good: a lot of coverage, screens, np, cm and haze.
It was also my first shiny in pokemon go.

My precious shiny golduck

 

[Fropop]

edit: (252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Aqua Jet (60 BP after tera) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) silly guy

Priority moves don't get base power increased to 60 with tera of the same type. Same for multi hit moves

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Not played for a little bit, so sorry for the one liner: does Weather Ball Raging Bolt have any place in the meta?

 

[Delibird Heart]

[Gen 9] OU: Coup Critique YT vs. sire clod - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) Allow me to contribute this salty goofball who didn't understand that crit doesn't matter because you got WUGGED

Props for immediately sacking gambit instead of wugtrio, a true triple head soldier, gg. the crit was simply wugtrio rewarding you for your trust. you proved i was not wrong in giving you this team.

Not played for a little bit, so sorry for the one liner: does Weather Ball Raging Bolt have any place in the meta?

From my experience it's pretty good on both sun and rain yeah. You'll want probably specs on sun and booster energy on rain with something like Thunder/tclap/weather ball/dragon pulse or cm. In both cases this gives you a pretty spammable attack that you can use without being afraid of the fairy or ground switchins. Given weather ball's base power of 100 in weather and raging bolt's insane spatk it should always hit hard even if it's not stabbed.

 

[Heatranator]

Not played for a little bit, so sorry for the one liner: does Weather Ball Raging Bolt have any place in the meta?

Not really, even on weather teams, which is the only place you would use it besides gimmicky glowking strategies. It's just best to use electric/dragon moves, it's basically got the set of thunderclap, draco meteor, calm mind and thunderbolt. The only difference is maybe dragon pulse over draco. The thing with weather ball is that you have to switch it out for another move, but bolt needs all of its moves. Calm mind it needs to boost its offense, thunderclap for priority, draco/pulse for dragon stab and thunderbolt for more reliable electric stab. It can't really drop any of these moves and not feel it. Maybe you can drop thunderbolt, but that's not recommended.
TLDR, not really, other moves are more important. Maybe t-bolt could be dropped, but not advised.

 

[tommytt22]

Not played for a little bit, so sorry for the one liner: does Weather Ball Raging Bolt have any place in the meta?

There is no worse feeling than switching your iron treads or excadrill or landorus into weather ball and getting OHKO'd. It has a place but as stated theres a significant opportunity cost to losing any other move.

 

[Heatranator]

It always feels so good when you fumble the bag early but still manage to outplay the opponent and win.
I accidently let two mons get ko'd because I forgot darkrai commonly runs ice beam and kept my gliscor in, and somehow forgot cinderace outspeeds latias and let it get ko'd by u-turn. Sometimes I am so dumb, but was still able to win the game essentially 4v6.
For reference the game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2089395711?p2

 

[tommytt22]

Yesterday i vaguely promised a spotllight on primarina but i cant be bothered. I've instead chosen a pokemon who isnt even present on the VR which is a complete travesty.



Flamigo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Reversal/throat chop/ liquidation

Easily B rank material. We arent spoiled for choice with scrappy pokemon this generation but flamigo is everything it needs to be. Any ghost not named pecharunt needs to steer clear of close combat.

252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 374-444 (118.7 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 229-270 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

tera fighting is no joke either:
252 Atk Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 146-172 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

One cool interaction people often forget about scrappy is that it blocks intimidate, so lando-T takes 50% from brave bird on switch in. Or just chip away with close combat, its extremely low risk.

Thanks to the flying type you avoid sticky web and matchup extremely well into standard webs teams. The speed here creeps booster tusk by 1 point which is super convenient. Finally you resist sucker punch which is pretty much required to hold a late game sweeper spot this gen.

Not everything is smooth sailing for flamigo. Every Gliscor hard counters you. you also dont outspeed a few key booster pokemon. I like to pair it with moltres who handles valiant and moon . Ive personally used weavile to beat gliscor , it can also beat glowking. Otherwise, you may also want to try kyurem who can deal with gliscor and its teras more reliably at the cost of losing to glowking.

 

[RaikouLover]

Amatuer, try banded crawdaunt. Much more powerful.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem in Rain: 312-369 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpness Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem in Rain: 290-342 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I swear to god, if anybody says 'but ceaseless edge sets up spikes, so hamurott is better', I don't think you have a sense of humour.

It should be noted that Aqua Cutter > Razor Shell on Sammy. It’s almost as powerful, but gets 100% accuracy, double the PP, high crit rate, and is non-contact. No RH damage or burn / static cheese…

Banded Sammy is based. The unwallable monster!

 

[pika pal]

It's so weird to me that Razor Shell makes contact when the entire point of Shells and the use by its initial Signature User was using an object/armor extension instead of a vulnerable body part. That 50% DEF drop should come in handy on a spammable move, but the contact detriments are way too steep in this Meta.

Yesterday i vaguely promised a spotllight on primarina but i cant be bothered. I've instead chosen a pokemon who isnt even present on the VR which is a complete travesty.



Flamigo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Reversal/throat chop/ liquidation

Easily B rank material. We arent spoiled for choice with scrappy pokemon this generation but flamigo is everything it needs to be. Any ghost not named pecharunt needs to steer clear of close combat.

252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 374-444 (118.7 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 229-270 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

tera fighting is no joke either:
252 Atk Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 146-172 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

One cool interaction people often forget about scrappy is that it blocks intimidate, so lando-T takes 50% from brave bird on switch in. Or just chip away with close combat, its extremely low risk.

Thanks to the flying type you avoid sticky web and matchup extremely well into standard webs teams. The speed here creeps booster tusk by 1 point which is super convenient. Finally you resist sucker punch which is pretty much required to hold a late game sweeper spot this gen.

Not everything is smooth sailing for flamigo. Every Gliscor hard counters you. you also dont outspeed a few key booster pokemon. I like to pair it with moltres who handles valiant and moon . Ive personally used weavile to beat gliscor , it can also beat glowking. Otherwise, you may also want to try kyurem who can deal with gliscor and its teras more reliably at the cost of losing to glowking.

So I doubt this would be particularly noteworthy but given the 4th slot seems mostly up to specific/niche targets, Endeavor seems like a niche thing to slash on it. Scrappy avoids being blocked by Ghosts, and it Punishes Kingambit attempting to Tera SD on a weakened Flamigo at the endgame for a Sucker Punch sweep. Probably would be the least practical even compared to Reversal, but it'd be so funny if it worked.

 

[Conflux123]

Not played for a little bit, so sorry for the one liner: does Weather Ball Raging Bolt have any place in the meta?

It’s a niche pick on rain to surprise and KO checks like iron treads.

Rain and sun are too fishy in general

Exactly. I still hate it when I match up against them with HO though. It makes me need to use my brain to take advantage of torkoal and peli turns.

 

[sire clod]

Props for immediately sacking gambit instead of wugtrio,

If i wanted I could have 10,000-0ed with gambit, I literally can't lose with a Kingambit on my team, I just wanted to get the win for WUGNATION

 

[RaikouLover]

If i wanted I could have 10,000-0ed with gambit, I literally can't lose with a Kingambit on my team, I just wanted to get the win for WUGNATION

Ahhh. Gen 9 is a banger. Load up 5 shitmons + Kingambit and just win!

 

[sire clod]

Ahhh. Gen 9 is a banger. Load up 5 shitmons + Kingambit and just win!

Those shit mons all are a 10% boost to gambit. respect them