STABmons Viability Ranking

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EV

Banned deucer.
Proposals:
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
Another deterrent to setup spam.
B -> B+
B+ -> B-
D -> B-
N/A -> ?

I've already seen this on the ladder trying to fill KB's void. Now that it's not outclassed, where does it fit, if anywhere at all?
S- -> S+
A+ -> S-

Setup seems to have risen lately, and while FakeSpeed and other revengers are helpful at containing it, Sableye has always been the standard Boostblocker with Topsy Turvy, Dark Void, Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Destiny Bond. Is it time to rejoin the S rank?
 
What do you guys think of removing S+ and S- and returning to just S Rank? I feel like the metagame's currently in a state where nothing is truly standing out as S+, ahead of every single other Pokemon. I think re-condensing it into just S Rank is a logical move. Thoughts?
 

Scyther NO Swiping

Washed up former great
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
What do you guys think of removing S+ and S- and returning to just S Rank? I feel like the metagame's currently in a state where nothing is truly standing out as S+, ahead of every single other Pokemon. I think re-condensing it into just S Rank is a logical move. Thoughts?

I agree, having sub multiple levels of the S Rank seems unnecessary and just reaching for the sake of reaching. Looking at the definition of the S rank given in the OP (quoted below) I agree that it is logical to just have the S Rank without S+ and S-.

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are unmatched in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame on their own, and often in more than one capacity. With so few if any flaws holding them back they should always be considered over another Pokemon that performs in a similar role. These Pokemon define the metagame.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
What do you guys think of removing S+ and S- and returning to just S Rank? I feel like the metagame's currently in a state where nothing is truly standing out as S+, ahead of every single other Pokemon. I think re-condensing it into just S Rank is a logical move. Thoughts?
As a major advocate of the original split, I think we can put them back together. The main reason for the split before was the massive difference in the effectiveness of the S-rank pokemon, with diggersby being MUCH more effective than, say, heatran at the time. This massive difference really doesn't exist anymore, however, and as a result it seems unnecessary to continue with the split. Let it be known that for a time, this was the right thing to do, however.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Yeah, Weavile is probably about as good as crawdaunt. Fast dark void is nice if you're into that
I'm not exactly sold on Whimsicott. It's just too piss weak, but priority on its annoying moves is helpful. I say keep C- though.

Yes, this thing is a powerhouse, 1.5 times as strong as in normal UU and with higher accuracy on its stab. At least B.
I like tangrowth. AV can check stoise and I certainly like it more than whimsicott, so I say stay.
Yeah sure B- seems about right, since it's a slightly bulkier yet weaker ursaring.
This thing is gonna be hype. I think B is fine, it's probably not that good. 120-->150 is a huge gap.
I say dissolve S into one rank
Yeah sableye is really good honestly it belongs in S for sure. DArk void, tt, willo, ps, recover, knock, snarl, my god this thing is versatile.
 


Mega Swampert: Unranked ---> B+ Rank

Mega Swampert is good in the current metagame because of Rain becoming more common, for whatever reason (I blame Eevee General). It's excellent with Crabhammer, Water Shuriken, and Precipice Blades that are all increased buffs over Waterfall and Earthquake. Superpower allows it to smack up Ferrothorn, which is 2HKOed by Precipice Blades after Stealth Rock as it is, but it's still a cute little perk. Not much to say, really. Good archetype, good Pokemon, deserves a good ranking imo. Doesn't deserve A Ranks because it's slow outside of Rain, its moves have low accuracy, faces competition as a Mega Slot, and doesn't hit hard enough in certain scenarios because no Life Orb / Choice Band / whatever. Very many positives, a few negatives, should be ranked.

e: also, other Rain Pokemon (Kabutops, Ludicolo, Politoed, etc) deserve to be ranked. Politoed B, Kabutops needs a raise, Ludicolo C+, imo.
 
can we move alakazam up to b rank or b+ rank? it's really good imo. psystrike is a nice buff and it's really powerful. for example, it 2hkoes chansey after stealth rock, wheras psyshock never does. this, along with its high speed, high power, and immunity to residual damage give it a solid, defined niche. it outspeed pokemon like landorus and thundurus (though, it has to watch out for twave) and koes both of them. it gives balance a hard time, it does well versus offense because it's just really, really powerful, and it def deserves a higher ranking.
 


to rise to S Rank

Alright, a controversial nomination. But hear me out on this one! Darkrai is like a weird mashup of Greninja and Weavile: incredibly fast Speed, incredible power, and very hard to stop. The reason Darkrai stands out over the aforementioned Weavile is, in my opinion, its ability: Bad Dreams. This is a guaranteed Life Orb recoil (essentially) on the opponent and... they can't do anything about it. It wears down Darkrai's counters continuously and leaves them able to be set up on. Between just Dark Pulse and Sludge Bomb, it's incredibly difficult to counter. A common partner, Terrakion, is also great for it because it takes on Tyranitar and Chansey that would otherwise spell trouble to Darkrai. It doesn't require much support, dents any playstye, and is surprisingly bulky. However, it's held back by priority being common, and relative ease of crippling via Thundurus, which is insanely powerful. However, it's nearly always a guaranteed kill and will benefit your team. Same boat as Greninja, in my opinion. Pinging Kl4ng because he uses Darkrai a lot. A Rank is just not doing it justice!

to rise to A+ Rank

How Terrakion is not A+ already is a mystery to me! Between incredible Speed, power, a resistance to FakeSpeed, and solid STABs, it shines in the current metagame. A simple set of Swords Dance / Close Combat / Diamond Storm / Earthquake runs over the metagame. Some calculations to show its power:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 243-289 (63.6 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-341 (86.5 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But those don't really prove anything at all! In fact, they are just to show what Terrakion's full potential is. It does a shitton without a boost, even. The reason it deserves to move up is the insane offensive presence it packs and the pressure it places on teams. I've found myself using it a ton lately, and I can personally vouch for its effectiveness! Not S Rank, however, but certainly A+.

Replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-241539003
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-241536816

to rise to B Rank
to rise to A+ Rank
to rise to A Rank
to be placed in C Rank


Other nominations that I can't be arsed to write out fully, but they're fairly simple / obvious. Mega Medicham hits like a truck, is hard to stop. Clefable is basically a god thanks to Unaware and it's great in general. Serperior is powerful, popular, and cleans teams nicely. Mambo won with Cobalion, and it has a niche in being anti-meta. Fairly simple!
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Ew non-OP sprites.


Darkrai is very good and it should move up. Dark Void + Bad Dreams is a game changer and like you said wears down those Pokemon that try to counter it (Chansey, Unaware Clefable, even Tyranitar hates the residual damage). Plus it has okay bulk, which even lets it live up to Stoutland/Snorlax's FakeSpeed:
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 84-100 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 168-198 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(89.5 - 105.9%) -- 35.9% chance to KO
However, it cannot live a FakeSpeed from Braviary (not that common lately) or Ursaring (Silk Scarf > status orb is trending), but hey neither can Thundurus. It does lack utility when the sleeping target switches out, leaving it with a "useless" ability, though the fact it caused that switch is hardly useless. Besides Dark Void and Dark STAB it runs Nasty Plot, Sludge Bomb, Substitute, and Focus Blast, giving it some variety, but not a ton. I'm teetering with this one. I'll need to hear more.


I like Terrakion a lot too for its ease of fitting on teams that want a fast, bulky offensive hazard setter and/or revenger. What's great about it besides the merits unfixable pointed out is how it can run a really effective set with just two attacks thanks to its great coverage with just Fighting and Rock. That leaves it open to Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, Taunt (seriously put Taunt on anything that can learn it), or even some nuke options like Head Smash and High Jump Kick to screw over some typical checks. I also really like its resistance to Normal and it can even live +6 Extreme Speed from Kangaskhan after Rocks and send it packing with a nice an' STABBY Drain Punch to recover all that health:
+6 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 252-297 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 382-452 (108.5 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I prefer LO, but even without it still KOs because Khan will be at 75% max.)
Yeah it's also a superb Tyranitar check (hardly any counters exist in STABmons, Dark Void/Precipice Blades give Terrakion a bad day) and can use that turn it forces out Ttar to throw up Rocks. I've even experimented with Sub+Punch. Overall, Terrakion is great. It beats a lot of stuff in A rank (still struggles with the S mons for various reasons), really only getting stonewalled by Quagsire, Skarmory, Aegislash, and Gliscor and struggling at times with the Latis, Serperior, Gengar, Azumarill, Mega Diancie, and Meloetta, depending on how they get in, etc. A+ isn't a stretch.


Offensive Psychic-types aren't great unless they're special, and even then we really have Meloetta to hold up as the gold standard with the Latis cruising in at a close second. Psychic offers a lot of cool utility options but these are things Medicham doesn't really care about. It does like a fast STAB Mach Punch, yet that often competes with either its other, stronger Fighting STAB or coverage it will need for certain checks. Switching it in is never easy as it's still frail in the mega forme. I just don't know what it's bringing to the table beyond B-. For a really hard-hitting and fast Fighting-type, I'd rather stick with you-know-who listed above in this post. B- better reflects its position; outclassed, sorely dependent on coverage, and competing with many other better mega formes out there.


You say it's a god thanks to Unaware but you don't tell me how that has changed since it hit A rank. Yes it is great in general. However, what makes it great enough to move up A+? It's a great wall if you EV the correct defense, otherwise it gets overpowered. It has great support options and I've rarely run a Clefable that didn't help the team, but I don't know why it's A+ material suddenly. Did Unaware Geomancy take off?


Serperior's reliance on the right attack is its biggest downfall. It's so predictable that you just let it sleep something and send in Heatran afterward, scout with King's Shield for HP Ground if you're not Air Balloon, and either hit Blue Flare or get in a backup that resists or isn't weak to Grass/Ground (Thundurus, Porygon2, Latis, Togekiss, Clefable, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Charizard-Y, Mega Sceptile, Rotom-H, Mega Pidgeot). Serp's bad coverage is actually a bit of a saving grace oddly enough, because it then uses the extra slot to run Substitute, buying it another +2 boost with Leaf Storm, Taunt, Glare, or even just Dragon Pulse, which handles a lot of the Pokemon listed. Still, the set will always be Spore/Leaf Storm/Hidden Power/filler. I'm not convinced.


I commend Mambo's moxie to bring a highly underused Pokemon like Cobalion to OMPL. However, if we're just using his replay as an indicator of its viability (I don't see any other evidence other than the vague 'anti meta' wording), then let's review the replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-241516280
He leads with Cobalion and sets up a Swords Dance while P2 Shell Smashes. Turn 2 he Mach Punches for 66% (says more about P2 than it does Cobalion) and lives a Boomburst with 1% health. Next it loses its boost to a Sableye's Topsy Turvy, tries to Meteor Mash to hardly any effect, and gets forced out. You'd think it was dead for the rest of the match but Latias sends it a Lunar Dance, bringing it back to full health so it can take a +1 Sacred Fire from Heatran, get burned, heal with a Lum, and KO Heatran with High Jump Kick. Phew!
You know what could have done all that and better? Terrakion, minus the Meteor Mash of course. Assuming that Porygon2 was 248 HP / 252 SAtk Modest w/ Eviolite, which covers the range that a +2 Mach Punch / +2 Boomburst would do in damage both ways, we can infer this:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Mach Punch vs. -1 248 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 374-439 (100.2 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Porygon2 is done and you have a +2 Terrakion at full health on turn 2. If you'd forgotten your Life Orb somehow, you still live the return Boomburst, and do so much better than Cobalion:
+2 252+ SpA Porygon2 Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In my experience, Fighting/Steel isn't that great of coverage and it's mostly the reason Nasty Plot/Doom Desire/Sacred Sword Lucario never gained a strong foothold in STABmons. Cobalion beats Luke in Speed and Defense hands down, but Terrakion can do its job and do it better. And what makes it 'anti meta'? It can't beat the S rank Pokemon except maybe Mega Scizor if it outboosts with Swords Dance.
Now, one replay is not the end all/be all of Cobalion, but it's also not enough to put it at C. And to be completely honest, the niche I see it having is a Doom Desire/Volt Switch/King's Shield set with a way to beat opposing Steel-types with Fighting STAB, something Magnezone can only do with a weaker Hidden Power. If I were to rank Cobalion it would be in D right now.
 
Ew non-OP sprites.


Darkrai is very good and it should move up. Dark Void + Bad Dreams is a game changer and like you said wears down those Pokemon that try to counter it (Chansey, Unaware Clefable, even Tyranitar hates the residual damage). Plus it has okay bulk, which even lets it live up to Stoutland/Snorlax's FakeSpeed:
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 84-100 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 168-198 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(89.5 - 105.9%) -- 35.9% chance to KO
However, it cannot live a FakeSpeed from Braviary (not that common lately) or Ursaring (Silk Scarf > status orb is trending), but hey neither can Thundurus. It does lack utility when the sleeping target switches out, leaving it with a "useless" ability, though the fact it caused that switch is hardly useless. Besides Dark Void and Dark STAB it runs Nasty Plot, Sludge Bomb, Substitute, and Focus Blast, giving it some variety, but not a ton. I'm teetering with this one. I'll need to hear more.
I want it in S. There. More. :3


I like Terrakion a lot too for its ease of fitting on teams that want a fast, bulky offensive hazard setter and/or revenger. What's great about it besides the merits unfixable pointed out is how it can run a really effective set with just two attacks thanks to its great coverage with just Fighting and Rock. That leaves it open to Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, Taunt (seriously put Taunt on anything that can learn it), or even some nuke options like Head Smash and High Jump Kick to screw over some typical checks. I also really like its resistance to Normal and it can even live +6 Extreme Speed from Kangaskhan after Rocks and send it packing with a nice an' STABBY Drain Punch to recover all that health:
+6 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 252-297 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 382-452 (108.5 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I prefer LO, but even without it still KOs because Khan will be at 75% max.)
Yeah it's also a superb Tyranitar check (hardly any counters exist in STABmons, Dark Void/Precipice Blades give Terrakion a bad day) and can use that turn it forces out Ttar to throw up Rocks. I've even experimented with Sub+Punch. Overall, Terrakion is great. It beats a lot of stuff in A rank (still struggles with the S mons for various reasons), really only getting stonewalled by Quagsire, Skarmory, Aegislash, and Gliscor and struggling at times with the Latis, Serperior, Gengar, Azumarill, Mega Diancie, and Meloetta, depending on how they get in, etc. A+ isn't a stretch.
Don't run Drain Punch :_:. Also, how does it get stonewalled by Quagsire when it 2HKOes it? Skarmory hates +2 Close Combat, and Aegislash is bopped by Earthquake. Gliscor is OHKOed by +2 Diamond Storm. This is plausible, as Skarmory switches in on the SD and gets smacked, as does Gliscor. Unboosted struggles, but it still can muscle past them regardless. Azumarill is hardly a problem because it can't switch into Diamond Storm for the life of it. Something has to die, because they have to switch in. But then again, you did say how they get in is relevant. Disregard this, then. ~+~. Move up!


Offensive Psychic-types aren't great unless they're special, and even then we really have Meloetta to hold up as the gold standard with the Latis cruising in at a close second. Psychic offers a lot of cool utility options but these are things Medicham doesn't really care about. It does like a fast STAB Mach Punch, yet that often competes with either its other, stronger Fighting STAB or coverage it will need for certain checks. Switching it in is never easy as it's still frail in the mega forme. I just don't know what it's bringing to the table beyond B-. For a really hard-hitting and fast Fighting-type, I'd rather stick with you-know-who listed above in this post. B- better reflects its position; outclassed, sorely dependent on coverage, and competing with many other better mega formes out there.
How are you going to compare it to Meloetta and Latios when they serve entirely different roles? Mega Medicham walks over Stall and Balanced teams, while wearing down Terrakion's checks in the process. It's part of a DoubleFighting core which works very effectively because Mega Medicham beats through Skarmory, Quagsire, and Slowking with a lot more ease. It also has Hypnosis, setting it apart from Terrakion. It's not really outclassed by anything other than Terrakion because it hits so damn hard right off the bat. I mean, let's compare some power:

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 177-208 (51.9 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Terrakion can't afford to run Adamant. Either way, Mega Medicham's weakest High Jump Kick is just .2% less than Terrakion's most powerful High Jump Kick. Mega Medicham's nuking ability is unmatched, and this gives it a very solid niche in my opinion. Can also spam High Jump Kick a lot more freely due to Zen Headbutt scaring off Ghost- and Poison-types. Seriously, this thing is good. I would argue for B+, but that seems to be pushing it... Try it out, it will surprise you!


You say it's a god thanks to Unaware but you don't tell me how that has changed since it hit A rank. Yes it is great in general. However, what makes it great enough to move up A+? It's a great wall if you EV the correct defense, otherwise it gets overpowered. It has great support options and I've rarely run a Clefable that didn't help the team, but I don't know why it's A+ material suddenly. Did Unaware Geomancy take off?
I think it's A+ material for exactly what you say "I've rarely run a Clefable that didn't help the team". It's just that good. Easily splashed onto teams as a wonderful glue and "that one missing link found" that I absolutely adore! Nothing has changed for Clefable, really, I just think that people are realizing it's effectiveness. I know usage does not equate to viability, but look at this:

Last month's 1500 usage: | 40 | Clefable | 3.56220% | 71 | 3.729% | 53 | 3.708% |
This month's 1500 usage: | 20 | Clefable | 7.43938% | 205 | 5.765% | 153 | 5.539% |

That's a pretty huge jump in my opinion. Clefable's on the rise, and the ranking should reflect that. It's not "suddenly A+ material," I think it's untapped potential that finally got explored! The same thing happened with Darkrai: nothing immediately changed, people just realized that "hey this pokemon is rlly good!" and so yeah.


Serperior's reliance on the right attack is its biggest downfall. It's so predictable that you just let it sleep something and send in Heatran afterward, scout with King's Shield for HP Ground if you're not Air Balloon, and either hit Blue Flare or get in a backup that resists or isn't weak to Grass/Ground (Thundurus, Porygon2, Latis, Togekiss, Clefable, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Charizard-Y, Mega Sceptile, Rotom-H, Mega Pidgeot). Serp's bad coverage is actually a bit of a saving grace oddly enough, because it then uses the extra slot to run Substitute, buying it another +2 boost with Leaf Storm, Taunt, Glare, or even just Dragon Pulse, which handles a lot of the Pokemon listed. Still, the set will always be Spore/Leaf Storm/Hidden Power/filler. I'm not convinced.
I'll compare Serperior to our friend Greninja, minus all the excellent coverage. Fast, powerful, able to put counters to Sleep. It's surprisingly not difficult to attain boosts, at which point Pokemon are blown over. Latias is 2HKOed, as are the rest of the Pokemon (I believe I ran calcs awhile ago, correct me if I'm wrong somewhere. too lazy to check) I like Spore / Taunt / Leaf Storm / Hidden Power Ground, but that's just me. I think Serperior is way better than you're giving it credit for. So what if Heatran is immune to HP Ground with an Air Balloon? Heatran's best sets don't run it, not according to the analysis, and even then Leaf Storm pops it on the switch in and Serperior proceeds to KO it with Hidden Power Ground. That's not very good! Actually went back through and Calced stuff. Thundurus is KOed by +2 Leaf Storm, and can't do anything to Serperior with Substitute up but Oblivion Wing if it can live the Leaf Storm. Thunder Wave is annoying though >.>. Porygon2 is 2HKOed at +2, Latias is 2HKOed at +2, and so is Togekiss, Talonflame, Rotom-H, Mega Pidgeot (OHKOed after SR). Mega Charizard Y, Ferrothorn, and Mega Sceptile do avoid the 2HKO, however. But that's the thing. They can all come in on Leaf Storm the first time and it's no big deal, that's the point of checks. The other point is Serperior doesn't come in until the opposing team is sufficiently weakened. It's not fair to assume all of its checks will be at full health. And what do you do when Serperior puts your prime counter to sleep? Or it nabs a boost against a weak Pokemon and proceeds to overwhelm your said counters? Serperior's not without its flaws, but you're severely underestimating / underappreciating it. It's by no means a perfect Pokemon, but in all of the matches I've used it in (quite a lot, I like this thing, what can I say?!) it's always carried its weight in some way, shape, or form. The massive utility it can pack in one moveslot is another godsend. Does the Pokemon have to watch out for Taunt? Is it going to get paralyzed? Will your Pokemon have a Substitute set up on? Will Dragon Pulse catch your surprise Goodra off guard? It's surprisingly versatile, even with just two moves of coverage (potentially three). Serperior's more common now, according to usage as well, up from 4.7% usage to 5.3% usage. That's not a huge jump, but it's still inclining. Serperior + Kyurem-Black leaving the tier is really great for it. I very much support a raise for this thing, as I find it to be just incredible.



I commend Mambo's moxie to bring a highly underused Pokemon like Cobalion to OMPL. However, if we're just using his replay as an indicator of its viability (I don't see any other evidence other than the vague 'anti meta' wording), then let's review the replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-241516280
He leads with Cobalion and sets up a Swords Dance while P2 Shell Smashes. Turn 2 he Mach Punches for 66% (says more about P2 than it does Cobalion) and lives a Boomburst with 1% health. Next it loses its boost to a Sableye's Topsy Turvy, tries to Meteor Mash to hardly any effect, and gets forced out. You'd think it was dead for the rest of the match but Latias sends it a Lunar Dance, bringing it back to full health so it can take a +1 Sacred Fire from Heatran, get burned, heal with a Lum, and KO Heatran with High Jump Kick. Phew!
You know what could have done all that and better? Terrakion, minus the Meteor Mash of course. Assuming that Porygon2 was 248 HP / 252 SAtk Modest w/ Eviolite, which covers the range that a +2 Mach Punch / +2 Boomburst would do in damage both ways, we can infer this:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Mach Punch vs. -1 248 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 374-439 (100.2 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Porygon2 is done and you have a +2 Terrakion at full health on turn 2. If you'd forgotten your Life Orb somehow, you still live the return Boomburst, and do so much better than Cobalion:
+2 252+ SpA Porygon2 Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In my experience, Fighting/Steel isn't that great of coverage and it's mostly the reason Nasty Plot/Doom Desire/Sacred Sword Lucario never gained a strong foothold in STABmons. Cobalion beats Luke in Speed and Defense hands down, but Terrakion can do its job and do it better. And what makes it 'anti meta'? It can't beat the S rank Pokemon except maybe Mega Scizor if it outboosts with Swords Dance.
Now, one replay is not the end all/be all of Cobalion, but it's also not enough to put it at C. And to be completely honest, the niche I see it having is a Doom Desire/Volt Switch/King's Shield set with a way to beat opposing Steel-types with Fighting STAB, something Magnezone can only do with a weaker Hidden Power. If I were to rank Cobalion it would be in D right now.
don't care much about where this goes, it just needs to be ranked. haven't tested yet, as you know (we talked earlier), but i think it has great potential you're missing out on. vswitch alone is a niche in its own, and steel/fighting offers unique resistances to say perhaps dragon or ice that your team needs so valuably, and terrakion can't provide that additional momentum grabbing skill. c-, d, c, anywhere in the low ranks because it's kinda terrible overall. still niche and worthy of a ranking though!
 

EV

Banned deucer.
How are you going to compare it to Meloetta and Latios when they serve entirely different roles? Mega Medicham walks over Stall and Balanced teams, while wearing down Terrakion's checks in the process. It's part of a DoubleFighting core which works very effectively because Mega Medicham beats through Skarmory, Quagsire, and Slowking with a lot more ease. It also has Hypnosis, setting it apart from Terrakion. It's not really outclassed by anything other than Terrakion because it hits so damn hard right off the bat. I mean, let's compare some power:

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 177-208 (51.9 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Terrakion can't afford to run Adamant. Either way, Mega Medicham's weakest High Jump Kick is just .2% less than Terrakion's most powerful High Jump Kick. Mega Medicham's nuking ability is unmatched, and this gives it a very solid niche in my opinion. Can also spam High Jump Kick a lot more freely due to Zen Headbutt scaring off Ghost- and Poison-types. Seriously, this thing is good. I would argue for B+, but that seems to be pushing it... Try it out, it will surprise you!
Uh, I didn't compare it to Meloetta and Latios. I said they were the metagame's best Psychic-types, which reinforced my point that the metagame is more favorable to special psychics than it is to physical. Lol you think I would posit Medicham and Meloetta are on the same level?

So you're telling me you count on a 60% accurate Sleep move--further screwing over any hope it has of coverage--to disable things? Sorry but Hypnosis is not worthy of any rank. If anything I'd run Baton Pass to pivot into a check.

Skarmory runs King's Shield. What's Medicham going to do when it spams High Jump Kick against that? Quagsire runs Protect. Same scenario. The great thing about Terrakion is it doesn't need to use High Jump Kick. It can run Close Combat much more effectively because even with -1 it won't faint to FakeSpeed. Medicham has a poor secondary STAB option and relies on coverage whereas Terrakion doesn't and can run better filler moves. Cham also fails hard against one of the most ubiquitous STABmons Pokemon, Sableye (inb4 Miracle Eye). Anyway, I don't see why Cham needs to move up. B- is already a stretch.

I'll compare Serperior to our friend Greninja, minus all the excellent coverage.
So nothing like Greninja at all.

It's not fair to assume all of its checks will be at full health.
The burden is on the Pokemon under question to assume its checks will be at full health. You can't pick an arbitrary value to determine how you beat your checks because you must assume the worst case scenario if you want to rely on that Pokemon to fulfill its potential. You don't say "Well it can beat those things if they're at 64% of HP ..." You can include hazards, and things like the HP left after Belly Drum+Sitrus in specific scenarios such as Kangaskhan, but to say it's not fair to assume full health is to undermine your Pokemon's chances at succeeding when trying to determine what it can and can't beat under normal circumstances.

And what do you do when Serperior puts your prime counter to sleep?
You choose what it puts to sleep. If you're relying on Boomburst P2 to beat it, you don't switch it in right away.

Will Dragon Pulse catch your surprise Goodra off guard?

"Goodra?"

haven't tested yet, as you know (we talked earlier), but i think it has great potential you're missing out on.
Well I have tested it and it always under performed. I am starting to feel its niche is more at checking Scizor than anything, with a nice Twave to chop that Speed in half and a big ass Defense to sponge Steel and Bug (lol) while getting a nice Justified boost on Knock Off. Superpower is annoying but there's King's Shield if you want. Once Scizor is disabled you can Volt Switch to something and dispatch it or get in a Doom Desire and then Volt Switch.

I'd have to test that specifically, however. The set I ran was a LO special attacker and it didn't KO any of the things I wanted it to.
 
I completely agree with Darkrai for S, or even S+ in my opinion. I knew a few months ago when I started playing STABmons and the thing was in C+ that Darkrai was being very underestimated. While it gains pretty much nothing but Parting Shot from STABmons, it never really needed anything else than what it already had to wreak havoc. Base 125 speed is absolutely insane with Dark Void, and base 135 special attack to back that up just makes Darkrai extremely difficult to handle if you have a frail team. It also has coverage moves up the wazoo, even though most of the time it's only using the same 3.

and relative ease of crippling via Thundurus
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 243-286 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 324-382 (108.3 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah sure Darkrai is crippled by Thunder Wave, but I'm not sure how this is a downside if Thundurus dies in the process of inflicting paralysis. Darkrai basically goes 1 for 1, or better if it already put something to sleep.

Darkrai is in my opinion the best Pokemon in the tier right now, and if not S+ should most certainly be S.

EDIT: Nvm it appears S+ is no longer on the rankings.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Oh my god those sprites are disgusting unfixable lmao

Medicham probably belongs in C+. It is a huge momentum loss if it doesn't get a kill because it will easily be forced out. Not only this, but the presence of Aegislash on every other team makes it nearly impossible to spam HJK. As a fighting type wallbreaker, it is generally outclassed by the aforementioned Terrakion due to its higher speed, better secondary stab, access to swords dance, and better bulk, as well as losing a lot less momentum if it doesn't get a kill.

What will Medicham do that Terrakion doesn't do better, besides hitting a select few walls for more damage? Mach Punch is almost a waste of a moveslot in this meta anyways because its quite weak, and nobody would switch in mons like quagsire for Medicham to eliminate for Terrakion anyways. A core consisting of the two would be cool enough, but certainly won't work that well in practice because stall players are, well, intelligent. Lets say that you want to run the core as your stallbreaking core on offense. So what breaks Slowbro? Also, how is Medicham going to get 2 HJKs off against Quagsire when they opponent has Slowbro and possibly Aegislash as well?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
EDIT: Nvm it appears S+ is no longer on the rankings.
We split them once. They can always be split again if we run into a similar situation where some S mons are far enough ahead of their other S rank brethren to deserve the distinction.
 
Have you guys used Mega Medicham at all? It really feels like people have not.

"Skarmory runs King's Shield. What's Medicham going to do when it spams High Jump Kick against that? Quagsire runs Protect. Same scenario"

That's literally the whole point of Hypnosis, avoiding King's Shield... But never mind that. Quagsire is 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt, so try again with checking it via Quagsire! And when Terrakion wears it down beforehand (also 2HKOes), then your Quagsire is going to be a great stop....

"Medicham has a poor secondary STAB option and relies on coverage whereas Terrakion doesn't and can run better filler moves. Cham also fails hard against one of the most ubiquitous STABmons Pokemon, Sableye (inb4 Miracle Eye)."

Mega Medicham 2HKOes Sableye via Thunder Punch, but what physical attacker can beat it with Will-O-Wisp / Dark Void in play? That's incredibly unfair and does not have relevance considering Sableye is, ya know, a wonderful stop to nearly all physical attackers. Being immune to its STABs doesn't matter when Thunder Punch 2HKOes. What if Wisp misses? What if Void misses? Parting Shot into another Pokemon, great, you've just done... what exactly? Of course Sableye is going to beat it >_>. And who spams High Jump Kick when Ghost-types are still in play? Lol.

Explain how its secondary STAB option is bad please. Psychic / Fighting typing is not bad, it is only resisted by other Psychic-types and Aegislash. Psychic-types still cannot even switch in! Hell, Latios is OHKOed after Rocks by HJK, Deoxys-Defense is 2HKOed, Deoxys-Speed is OHKOed, Mew can't take repeated HJK (3HKO), Slowking is 2HKOed, Gothitelle has a chance to be OHKOed, and so on. Slowbro is the most sturdy HJK switch in out of all Psychic-type. It most certainly does not rely on coverage, that is a misinterpretation. It literally only needs Thunder Punch. That's it. The only Pokemon resisting the combo are Latias, Latios, and Claydol / Exeggutor (who are irrelevant). Both of the Lati twins are 2HKOed by High Jump Kick... Yeah, its coverage isn't bad. Fighting / Psychic / Electric hits 21 Pokemon for Super Effective damage in the A- through S Ranks. Compared to Terrakion's Fighting / Rock which hits 20. Add Earthquake to the mix and you end up with a grand total of 22. They have equal coverage in terms of super effectiveness of just these four ranks. Admittedly, these Pokemon are the most common you will see. I'll give you Mega Sableye as a counter to Mega Medicham... because it is. Everything does have counters, overall! This argument in specific is just silly, it does not "rely" on coverage, it utilizes it. It also has a free slot. Baton Pass is cute, sure, but I'm not a fan because you pass Intimidate from Landorus-T as well (a common switch in) so it's very risky.

How can you compare Mega Medicham to things in B- Rank? Alakazam is great (I actually really like this) and all but it has several glaring flaws: ease of revenge killing, inability to break through common Pokemon, reliance on item. Bisharp: faces incredibly stiff competition from Mega Scizor. Has a powerful Knock Off. Conkeldurr: weak in a Flying-type metagame, and it's just so slow. Carries utility. Crawdaunt: who uses this? I've literally never seen it used before. Seems so outclassed by Azumarill but is a cool wallbreaker I guess? Entei: cool Pokemon, but has a lack of coverage and is very easy to wear down. Mega Garchomp is just... meh. Kinda think it has a niche, but haven't used it. Gothitelle is a god why is it in B- Rank :<? Hippowdon needs to move up. Great Pokemon! Off-topic, but whatever. Hydreigon is a jack-of-all master of none situation. Kyurem is a poor man's Kyurem-B. Mega Manectric troubles offense but has nothing against defensive teams. Politoed is the back bone of an entire structure, so it's fine. Raikou is very easy to wear down and kinda weak as a whole. Rotom-W is pretty solid, but easy to wear down. Snorlax is... cool I guess. Haven't used before. Yanmega is actually very solid, but it's just got a bad name. But that's the B- Ranks, pardon my rambling.

The point is this: Mega Medicham has flaws. It's not very fast, it has poor bulk (and defensive typing, for that matter), and it's generally hard to bring in. It faces competition from Terrakion, and it costs you your Mega slot. However, it has several defining traits such as its inability to switch in instantly from the get go (other Pokemon require a turn to set up) and the excellent coverage it brings in just three moves. The wallbreaking prowess is incredible, and it pairs very well with Togekiss. The two both like each other because Mega Medicham breaks things down so that Togekiss can sweep later on, for example. You have to look at Mega Medicham as not just one individual Pokemon, but the great portions it brings to a team. Deoxys-D, for example. One can argue its lack of offensive prowess, bad typing, and subpar Speed are reasons for it to move down. However, it supports the team by fulfilling a specific role that makes other Pokemon better. That's what Mega Medicham does: insanely weakens teams so that other Pokemon can shine.

Will provide replays later, I have not saved them.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
This is probably my last post on these proposals until other people start to chime in, but I just gotta say
Fighting / Psychic / Electric hits 21 Pokemon for Super Effective damage in the A- through S Ranks. Compared to Terrakion's Fighting / Rock which hits 20. Add Earthquake to the mix and you end up with a grand total of 22.
Last I checked 22 > 21. Also, 20 SE hits with only two attacks (that are also STAB btw) is great! You gave Medicham a third attack. Take away Electric and Fighting / Psychic hits 11 (I'm not counting Ditto.) In fact, Psychic only hits Gengar and Terrakion, the latter of which is already hit SE by Fighting. Again, offensive Psychic isn't very good. Special Psychic gets special mention because Psystrike and at times Stored Power, two high-powered moves compared to Zen Headbutt.

Stop inflating Mega Medicham or start showing me the receipts. Right now on paper it doesn't look good. :X
 
This is probably my last post on these proposals until other people start to chime in, but I just gotta say

Last I checked 22 > 21. Also, 20 SE hits with only two attacks (that are also STAB btw) is great! You gave Medicham a third attack. Take away Electric and Fighting / Psychic hits 11 (I'm not counting Ditto.) In fact, Psychic only hits Gengar and Terrakion, the latter of which is already hit SE by Fighting. Again, offensive Psychic isn't very good. Special Psychic gets special mention because Psystrike and at times Stored Power, two high-powered moves compared to Zen Headbutt.

Stop inflating Mega Medicham or start showing me the receipts. Right now on paper it doesn't look good. :X
I'll show you the receipts when you actually use it! >.>
 
why are you considering HJK when it now has access to Close combat? What does HJK ohko that CC doesn't?
The only target off of the top of my head is Mega Latias, which can avoid the 2HKO from Close Combat with minimal investment, while it needs 252/252 to avoid a 2HKO from HJK (which is a bad set btw). Close Combat's drops in defenses are annoying as well, as Mega Medicham's not bulky at all. I'd say this is a situation of Dragon Ascent versus Brave Bird; both have merits, but it's ultimately the Pokemon's set and personal choice.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
I don't understand why Mega Medicham is higher than Mega Gallade, when imho Gallade is a much better mon. First of all, it's speed tier is much more favorable than Medichams (110 is fantastic, while 100 is only "ok"). They both get the same tools from STABmons, but Gallade's movepool is much more colorful, allowing it to do weird things like bring Leaf Blade on an SD set to smack Quagsire around (252 Atk Mega Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) or run EQ for Aegislash and other KS Steel-types (like Heatran). It also has Knock Off over Medicham, a huge move to have, especially for a Fighting-type (this also gives it a tool over Terrakion, mind you). Gallade is also much harder to revenge kill. For one, you can't FakeSpeed it (Inner Focus hype), and it's bulkier in general so ExtremeSpeed won't be killing unless you're at -1 from CC and even then its not guaranteed (252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). Sure Medicham hits a lot harder, but that doesn't directly translates to breaking walls better. As previously mentioned, Gallade's more colorful movepool allow it to break walls easier, especially at +2. Gallade is also a lot less dead weight vs offense, as it doesn't have to rely on Mach Punch to deal with offense.

I also think in general C- is not doing M-Gallade justice. I'd argue C+ or B-, but definitely not C-.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I don't understand why Mega Medicham is higher than Mega Gallade, when imho Gallade is a much better mon. First of all, it's speed tier is much more favorable than Medichams (110 is fantastic, while 100 is only "ok"). They both get the same tools from STABmons, but Gallade's movepool is much more colorful, allowing it to do weird things like bring Leaf Blade on an SD set to smack Quagsire around (252 Atk Mega Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) or run EQ for Aegislash and other KS Steel-types (like Heatran). It also has Knock Off over Medicham, a huge move to have, especially for a Fighting-type (this also gives it a tool over Terrakion, mind you). Gallade is also much harder to revenge kill. For one, you can't FakeSpeed it (Inner Focus hype), and it's bulkier in general so ExtremeSpeed won't be killing unless you're at -1 from CC and even then its not guaranteed (252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). Sure Medicham hits a lot harder, but that doesn't directly translates to breaking walls better. As previously mentioned, Gallade's more colorful movepool allow it to break walls easier, especially at +2. Gallade is also a lot less dead weight vs offense, as it doesn't have to rely on Mach Punch to deal with offense.

I also think in general C- is not doing M-Gallade justice. I'd argue C+ or B-, but definitely not C-.
I tried out Mega Gallade but got distracted when Mega Aero was getting popular. Another edge it has over Cham is Taunt, which lets it stallbreak if needed, though generally just outright attacking if preferred. You may be able to time a Sableye switch, however, and cripple it as you continue to setup. Mega Cham is probably a better hit-and-runner, and I'd argue that having Fake Out and then a strong Mach Punch makes it a psuedo-Espeeder that can check Pokemon some Espeeders can't, like a rogue Mega Gyara or Terrakion. Gallade's better Speed and usable bulk gives it an edge, however, letting it stick around a bit longer.
 
Recommending that Arcanine be ranked somewhere by virtue of being Mega Scizor's only hard counter that seriously threatens it in return (physically defensive Gyarados reliably switches in, but has trouble KOing it unboosted), which it achieves via its mono-Fire typing and Intimidate, alongside solid bulk and reliable recovery.

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- approx. 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 133-157 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 67.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arcanine can switch in on Mega Scizor's Shift Gear and immediately threaten it with its Fire STAB (V-Create, Sacred Fire, whatever) or Will-O-Wisp the switch-in.

Mega Scizor with Powder can be problematic, but that Scizor is either going to lack recovery or coverage, meaning that something else on your team can manage it. Powder is rare on Scizor anyways.

Tentatively suggesting B- or C+ rank, as it seems to be somewhere in there. Its primary draw is countering Mega Scizor, but Intimidate + Bulk + Fire STAB + Priority + Recovery is also a generally good combination.
 
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Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
Arcanine is far from the only hard counter of Mega Scizor. Talonflame and Gyarados can easily counter every possible coverage option of Scizor, and there are plenty more counters that are more specific to what coverage move Scizor is running, like Slowbro, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Quagsire, etc.
 
Arcanine is far from the only hard counter of Mega Scizor. Talonflame and Gyarados can easily counter every possible coverage option of Scizor, and there are plenty more counters that are more specific to what coverage move Scizor is running, like Slowbro, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Quagsire, etc.
+1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 296-348 (99.6 - 117.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

Gyarados is a nice switch-in, but it's hard-pressed to do more than hit it with Thunder Wave and phaze it out -- which is good, don't get me wrong, but compare this to forcing the opponent to waste a turn switching the bug out (or letting it die). It's also susceptible to burns, which Arcanine isn't.

I don't deny that there are coverage-dependent answers to Mega Scizor, but Arcanine is able to do so reliably while probably posing some sort of threat to any team that's likely to run it afterwards. It incidentally allows you to run a more offensive Gyarados, if you're so inclined.

EDIT: Calcs for non-defensive Gyarados.

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 180-214 (50.9 - 60.6%) -- approx. 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
Oh yeah, this thread.

Proposals:

A -> S
A -> A+
N/A -> D
B+ -> A-
B -> B+
B -> B+
B -> B+
B- -> B
B- -> C?
B+ -> B?
A -> A+ (Mold Breaker sweeps!)
A- -> B+?
 
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