Ladder Smogon Triples

Why would you need to guess the perish song users? Volt Switch/U-turn isn't going to stop them from using perish song anyway, it's just used to reset the timer.
 
"If you're extremely shaky about predicting protects, you could use Volt Switch/U-Turn on an ally."

That's taking the whole thing way too far. Look, I know that Perish Trap is pretty much the biggest aspect of triples, but this is becoming more hypothetical than realistic. Perish Trap is annoying and even the best teams can succomb to it. Going as far as to make a team in which many of its members absolutely must have U-Turn or Volt Switch is just unrealistic.
 
Hi, I'm having trouble playing against Trick Room. Any tips/tricks?
Fake Out is really useful when trying to stop them from setting TR. Taunt is sometimes useful but not really because of oblivious/aroma veil.

Mons with priority are also really good against TR, like bisharp and talonflame.
 
Fake Out doesn't work if the opposing Trick Room user is a ghost type. It can also be stopped by Quick Guard.
 
Fake Out doesn't work if the opposing Trick Room user is a ghost type. It can also be stopped by Quick Guard.
I know man.

But not every trick room user is a ghost type and not every team has quick guard. You just have to use it wisely of course. If the setter is a ghost type then taunt is a much more viable option. And you can also use snatch against opposing Quick Guards.

I'd also like to mention that Aegislash and Hydreigon are really threatening to TR setters. Aegislash hits almost every setter super effectively & can KO/bring to sash or at the very least, KO it after one of your other pokemon got a bit of prior damage on it. Hydreigon is really good because it has STAB Dark Pulse which is SE against a lot of setters and can hit them no matter what position they're in.
 
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The only team I've made thus far that I've always felt like a loss could've been averted with different decisions, barring the occasional extreme luck-screw. I present to you...

Triple Gravity Threat

Creepy (Sableye) (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Taunt
- Gravity
- Recover

The core of the team. Why? Prankster Gravity. Sableye is it for that specific combination. Until very recently Fake Out was Will O Wisp, but about the only time I actually found that useful was when facing Terracott -and usually not even then, so I'm experimenting with Fake Out instead, in part to better counter Terracott. (Fake Out on Whimsicott is almost always a good thing to do) The Mental Herb used to be Leftovers, but I never noticed Leftovers helping anything, whereas being Taunted while I was trying to put up a Gravity happened repeatedly, at which point I had to switch or Struggle. (And now it would be switch or Fake Out to no effect, which isn't really better) Once ORAS comes along I'll probably turn Sableye into Mega Sableye, dump Fake Out for something else, and replace Mega Lucario with Keldeo-with-Focus-Blast, probably running Life Orb but maybe Choice Specs. For the moment though, she's here to set Gravity, mostly, and try to not die. She also has a secondary utility for blocking Trick Room, though they usually Taunt-block so she's not that useful for it -usually if I'm using Taunt it's to block Mat Block or render Smeargle useless.

I've waffled on the EVs, mostly whether Defense or Special Defense makes more sense. I haven't actually touched them, but I have wondered if I would be better off Physically defensive.

Ultimately I wish Sableye had a more useful movepool -I look forward to seeing what ORAS delivers in this regard. (Yes I could run stuff like Foul Play, but most of it wouldn't help in the most problematic situations for the team -it would just give her something to spend time on, and frankly it's usually not a problem if she's KOed... free switch!) As already covered, though, I'll probably be converting her to Mega Sableye once ORAS comes along -Magic Bounce has all the utility of a Mental Herb and more, and I'd just adjust to always setting Gravity first turn, rather than sometimes first and sometimes second. And even then if I think I can get away with it I could just hold off on Mega Evolving until turn 2.

No Die (Aggron) (F) @ Stone Plate
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Iron Tail
- Superpower
- Protect

The hammer of the team. No Die generally uses two moves -Head Smash, and Protect. This is so consistently true I've actually been at something of a loss for the third slot -I was running Brick Break, until it occurred to me that I might as well slam the enemy with Superpower 99% of the time, and really I'd rather run a Status move, but Taunt is the only good one for Triples Aggron gets and usually she's not in a position to do anything useful with it. If it's not turn 1, I probably won't benefit from Taunting anything anyway, and if it is turn 1, anything worth Taunting is probably a Prankster or a Trick Room setter protected from Taunt. I'd honestly run Life Orb over Stone Plate, except it's all too frequent for No Die to end up within a Life Orb recoil or two of death and keep going -with a Life Orb she'd faint herself, and there's tons of matches that would cost me. Alternately, I could run a Choice Band -except it's all too common for something to be faster and in a position to attack No Die for a OHKO, so it's not actually realistic to Choice Band and Head Smash all the way. I suppose I could Choice Scarf, but she'd still be out-run quite often, she'd lose the ability to stall through Trick Room (Which has saved my bacon several times), and the effect works a lot better when I'm KOing 2-3 Pokemon in a turn before they can act rather than having No Die whack one thing and possibly be KOed.

... in writing up this RMT I discovered that for some bizarre reason I've only had the Speed EVs and correct nature on No Die, which makes all the more impressive her track record -she is the single most consistently lethal member of the team. Testament to the power of Head Smash.

Hopefully ORAS will deliver something really worthwhile for the third slot -something for coverage against Fighting types would be nice. Zen Headbutt?

Gotta Kill Fast (Talonflame) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 116 HP / 140 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Protect

Lethal support. Generally speaking, Gotta Kill Fast does two things -set Tailwind, and Brave Bird. Occasionally he'll use Protect, mostly when I'm expecting Fake Out. I very rarely use Flare Blitz, but it's always extremely important when I do -and there isn't really anything I'd rather run over it anyway. Gotta Kill Fast quite frequently faints on the first turn, which is fine, because it means I get to switch in team members who actually benefit from Gravity and Tailwind. There's really not much to say about him. He's by far the simplest team member.

The EVs are just what the teambuilder auto-recommended to me. I haven't messed with them because Gotta Kill Fast often ends up at these magical numbers, where he recoil/Life Orb recoils down to not much under 10% health, enough to either largely waste an enemy attack or allow him to land one last "For Hell's sake, I spit at thee" attack, either way, so even though I kind of want to take away HP EVs for Attack EVs, I suspect his performance would immediately, mysteriously suffer.

I doubt ORAS is going to change anything about how I run him, though I suppose it's possible I'll decide to replace Flare Blitz with something -it's not like there's any Flying type moves Talonflame doesn't already get that I'd want on him, barring maybe Dragon Ascent as a replacement for Brave Bird, and really I can't think of anything across the entire game I would want to replace Flare Blitz with.

... well, V-Create, actually. But that's literally the only thing that comes to mind.

Thax's Sis (Toxicroak) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Gunk Shot
- Cross Chop
- Knock Off

Utility. Knock Off used to be Sucker Punch, but I basically never got use out it -if I had Tailwind up, it probably wasn't necessary, and pretty much anything I wanted to hit with priority was either a Prankster using a Status move or using some priority move of their own to prevent me from Sucker Punching them. Thax's Sis is on the team for the combination of Fake Out and STAB Gunk Shot+STAB Cross Chop. There's probably better options out there for one or the other, but the two together a nice combination -rips up Fairies, Steel types, and Rock types all together, and can deal with a lot of other things too. She also almost always survives to get in two or three hits -usually she isn't hit during the Fake Out turn (Because I Fake Out whatever I can't KO and KO the other two) and then only gets hit one time after that. So that's nice.

For some reason the teambuilder was recommending some HP EVs. Dunno why. Screw that, Thax's Sis never takes more than one hit from anything except the things that only do like 20% damage anyway. All Speed and all Attack all the way!

I don't think ORAS is liable to change anything about how I've got her set up. Maybe there will be some gem -something to replace Knock Off- but most everything I want her doing she can already do.

Doc Stewart (Lucario) (M) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
Shiny: Yes (Guess why. Seriously, please, somebody guess)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Focus Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Vacuum Wave

The other hammer of the team, but on the Special side. Gravity-guided Focus Blast is fantastic off 140 Special Attack and bolstered by Adaptability. The main thing Doc Stewart does is annihilate things with Focus Blast, with Dark Pulse being used, not to pop Ghosts actually, but to hit whatever's at the other end of the field. (I won a match one time where I was down to Doc Stweart and Sableye, whom I had keep Recovering while Doc Stewart kept popping the last enemy for damage, and they would've had to "waste" a turn on centering to get out of this) Flash Cannon... is there? I mostly use it if Gravity runs out and I can't reset it, basically. Vacuum Wave was Quick Guard once upon a time -I was afraid of Mach Punch, basically- but I found that it never helped, in part because I was awful at prediction, but also in part because I just didn't need priority protection very often. I needed other things. Like priority of my own. Hence Vacuum Wave.

252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 312-368 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

Look at that! Special walls ain't nothing. Not that I've ever seen Eviolite Chansey in Triples, but it illustrates how destructive the whole thing is -and with Gravity up, it's 100% reliable.

The EVs are of course go fast, kill things. The bit of Special Defense is what the Teambuilder threw at me -maybe I'd be better off with HP, maybe with Defense, maybe it doesn't matter, I dunno.

As outlined earlier, when ORAS comes along I may well replace Doc Stewart with a My Little Pony Of Doom, making up the Special Attack and Adaptability difference with a Life Orb or even Choice Specs. Probably running Hydro Pump. I'll also have to look into what else My Little Pony Of Doom learns in terms of inaccurate Special moves.

Smirk (Tornadus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
- Tailwind

Back-up Tailwinder and back-up Special attacker, mostly. Hurricane being able to target anywhere has been a lifesaver, though. It's depressing how often Focus Blast isn't a OHKO on vulnerable targets, even ones whose Special Defense isn't that great. Smirk is a team member I would replace in a heartbeat if I had a clear idea what to replace him with, as he lacks a clear role in the team and isn't even a multi-purpose troubleshooter. He's just sort of there. The ability to Prankster Substitute-stall has been useful a couple of times, though, particularly for waiting out Trick Room.

The EVs are generic, and very probably not at all optimal.

I could easily see ORAS leading to me modifying Smirk -or replacing him outright with a different Pokemon, particularly if a good Hurricane abuser (Other than Mega Pidgeot) opens up.

The standard opener for the team is Sableye and Talonflame on the sides, Aggron in the middle, have Sableye Fake Out, Talonflame Tailwind, and Aggron Protect. Next turn Aggron starts Head Smashing, and Talonflame either murders something or went down the previous turn and whoever I bring out (Usually Lucario or Toxicroak) starts up with the damage output. This opener varies not at all against most teams, though after the first turn I have to start adapting to my opponent's team, even if they don't fit any of the threats I'll be covering.

The funny thing is, the team started from the idea of abusing Gravity+Earthquake -until I really thought it through and realized that Shedinja was literally the only way to be protected from Gravity Ground moves. (Well, at least on Showdown Air Balloons work too, but they're not reliable)

Threats to the team

"Stealth" Trick Room teams. Any Trick Room team that I overlook being Trick Room -a lot of Triples Trick Room teams are weighted towards mid-speed Pokemon, as opposed to the complete-crap-Speed Pokemin I usually see in Doubles- can completely wreck my team, because that first turn I set up is sealing my doom rather than granting me a superior position. If I don't overlook that it's a Trick Room team, I can usually win, and in fact can often KO the setter outright, though really I just need to get better at recognizing these "stealth" Trick Room teams before Turn 1, not at Turn 1. Opening with Aggron and Mega Lucario alongside Gravity-setting Sableye is probably the way to go -but I always stupidly lead with Sableye/Aggron/Talonflame against these teams, even though Talonflame is not a big help against them.

Terracott. I seriously hate Terracott. The closest thing to a 100% reliable way to mess it up is to target Whimsicott with a Fake Out -but in Triples even that isn't reliable, because they can be running Quick Guard Talonflame to cover it, and I've seen it done, even before the fact that Whimsicott is always in a corner so you won't necessarily be able to target it with Fake Out if you put your Fake Outer on the wrong side. There is literally no good, safe answer to Terracott, not on my team, and I don't think really in Triples at all, but definitely not on my team. If I get through all the ways things can just go horribly wrong -I correctly guess they're Scarfed abusers all the way, or I correctly guess they're going to double Protect while setting Tailwind, or I otherwise correctly guess whatever exact horrible thing they're doing- then I invariably win because Triples Terracott teams just don't have a real back-up plan. But if I get any of those wrong, it's a nightmare to get through -I put Vacuum Wave on Mega Lucario in part so I'd have priority capable of real damage against Terrakion, and even that falls apart if they have a Quick Guarder and use it. (Which is pretty common)

Hitmontop. Seriously. Fake Out! Quick Guard! Rock moves! Technician Mach Punch! Close Combat! All on the same Pokemon! Any team that has Hitmontop is a pain for me to deal with -not impossible, but it can throw such a huge wrench in what I'm doing, and any answer can be the wrong answer. If it can Fake Out Talonflame, should I Protect? If it Quick Guards I should just set Tailwind, but if it Rock Slides I should Brave Bird it out of existence, but if it Fake Outs I should Protect, and aaaaaa. It can also rip apart Mega Lucario with Close Combat or rip it apart with priority via Technician Mach Punch, it can rip apart Aggron in general, it's obnoxiously hard to take down, and while it's doing all this its teammates are doing whatever their doing and all the effort spent on Hitmontop is effort not spent on rendering its teammates moot. Most of my losses that weren't to "Stealth" Trick Room or Terracott have bee to teams that were nothing notable except they have Hitmontop. ugh. The one bright spot is how often Hitmontop has Wide Guard and uses it once Talonflame is down, clearing expecting me to be spamming Earthquake or Rock Slide from Aggron.

Oddly enough, I've never actually run into Perish Trap on the Triples ladder myself. I'm not sure how well my team would perform against it. It's got the tools to mess up Perish Trap, but not necessarily the synergy.

Here's some replays to illustrate what Triple Gravity Threat looks like in action, because I don't think reading about it conveys it that well. Or I'm just crap at explaining myself, which is entirely possible.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-182510488 TERRACOTT. I make a major misplay initially because I've never seen Cobalion in Triples and wasn't sure what it was going to do, but it's a decent show of what the team does -among other point Mega Lucario OHKOs Slaking.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-182506367 Odd match, in which I Flinch my foe a lot.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-182508484 An all-Fairy gimmick team... with regular Mawile for some reason...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-184123507 I thought it was Trick Room, not sure what it was.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-184124478 Opponent forfeits partway through when it becomes obvious walling is not going to work at all.

And then the server crapped itself and I gave up on trying to find a "representative" replay. So whatever, post done, go ahead and tell me everything dumb about the team. Really wanted to get it out before ORAS, too late now.
 
I remember playing against that team. It's very strong. In fact, you even inspired me to try out Gravity. I used Mega Kangaskhan with Mega Kick. And now I'm trying Gravity with Hydro Pump.

Btw, to defeat Terracott, simply outspeed and kill Terrakion with a Pokemon that is faster. If the opponent uses Tailwind, you also use Tailwind. On my rain team, my swift swimmers easily take care of Terrakion, so I never had trouble with it. I use Tailwind at the same time they use Tailwind to maintain speed control.

Also, Meowstic learns Gravity through the ORAS move tutors, so Sableye isn't the only prankster with it anymore.
 
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I remember playing against that team. It's very strong. In fact, you even inspired me to try out Gravity. I used Mega Kangaskhan with Mega Kick. And now I'm trying Gravity with Hydro Pump.

Btw, to defeat Terracott, simply outspeed and kill Terrakion with a Pokemon that is faster. If the opponent uses Tailwind, you also use Tailwind. On my rain team, my swift swimmers easily take care of Terrakion, so I never had trouble with it. I use Tailwind at the same time they use Tailwind to maintain speed control.

Also, Meowstic learns Gravity through the ORAS move tutors, so Sableye isn't the only prankster with it anymore.
Sableye is still the best general user of it (Immune to Fake Out etc) but that's cool to know.

Terracott is not so simple to just outspeed. Terrakion's 108 Speed is plenty to outspeed a sizable fraction of the meta, plenty of things that outspeed it are flat out bad, and the rest aren't necessarily a real answer to Terrakion in specific, let alone Terracott -and I've seen Scarfed Terracott, where both Terrakion and Whmisicott are Scarfed, essentially demanding Fake Out to block.

I really kind of wish Terracott would just get banned. There's no single good answer to it, and it's way too prone to sweeping unprepared teams and prepared teams if you guess which exact variation of Terracott it is because there are multiple variations.

I'm glad to hear I inspired at least one other person to play with Gravity. I've been trying to find a legitimate use for it since early Gen IV and just going nowhere fast until I made Triple Gravity Threat.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-194255555 Here's a perfect Terracott!

Before anyone starts screaming for it to be banned, one may stop it by:
-Speed Control (Tailwind, Trick Room, or weather speed abilities)
-Priority
-Follow Me/Rage Powder to redirect Whimsicott's Beat Up away from Terrakion
-Wide Guard
-also using Terracott lol

Of course none of this is a full stop, so one must utilize multiple of these and play skillfully.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-172986983 Here's a really funny Terracott defeat that I saved a long time ago.
 
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After playing lots of ORAS Triples, I can definitely say that the following things are threatening to a team:
  1. Flying types such as Talonflame and Mega Salamence can hit whatever they want on the field.
  2. Shadow Tag is definitely scary because they trap half of your team in on whatever they want you to fight off. Gothitelle and Mega Gengar are very good at utilizing this.
  3. Rock Slide, despite having a horrible base power in Triples, gets very important flinches.
  4. Intimidate nerfs your physical attackers and forces you to either switch or just have backup on your team to quickly remove the intimidater.
  5. Offensive weather (meaning sun or rain; I would classify sand as more a defensive weather and hail something for Abomasnow and Abomasnow only to abuse) can destroy teams; this essentially means Mega Charizard Y and Politoed are incredibly useful.
  6. Wide Guard and Quick Guard can stop you dead cold if you try to use spread or priority respectively.
After playing lots more ORAS Triples, however, I can gladly say that there are checks and counters to these Pokemon.
  1. Carrying Stone Edge destroys Talonflame and 2HKOs Mega Salamence (Mega Salamence is probably the only flying type 2HKOd). Landorus-Therian allows you to do this while also providing Intimidate support, and Terrakion deals with Flying types and Bisharp at the same time.
  2. U-turn or just a ghost type in general can counteract Shadow Tag and let you play around with them too. Great U-turn/Volt Switch users are Mega Manectric (once again deals with Flying types), Mega Pinsir (a Flying type itself), and Landorus-Therian, which does what I said above. Some great ghost types would be Cofagrigus as an offensive Trick Room setter, Gengar as a hyper-offensive Focus Sash Pokemon, or even Jellicent as another hyper offensive Trick Room setter which deals with Landorus-Therian and Mega Salamence with Ice Beam.
  3. What ever happened to Mega Gallade? Inner Focus lets it not get flinched by Fake Out from Mega Kangaskhan; this doesn't mean it can't have fun with Rock Slide either. A great Mega Gallade set would be Close Combat/Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Protect purely to be anti-Kangaskhan and anti-Rock Slide at the same time. It's very overlooked, but it's a great asset to a team nonetheless.
  4. Bisharp is pure anti-Intimidate. Sucker Punch lets it destroy anything that has Intimidate, and it can do whatever it wants after the Intimidater dies, specifically OHKO the fairies. Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon avoid Substitute and hit ever-so hard with Hyper Voice and Hyper Beam.
  5. Honestly the only counters to Rain and Sun are other weathers, preferably Rain or Sun. Ferrothorn does work on its own against rain, if you want anti-rain, and Zapdos counters both Rain and Sun very well, directly taking out the setter. Shadow Tag paired with either of these Pokemon is great weather resistance.
  6. Some really good Feint users can counteract the power of Wide Guard and Quick Guard (and Protect, for that matter) are Scizor, who gets a boost from Technician (really isn't that big), or Mega Pinsir, who gets STAB and a boost due to Aerilate and in all honesty Feint works far better than Quick Attack on it. An extremely good Feint user is Hitmontop solely because it has Wide Guard and Quick Guard as well as Feint, and can ruin Bisharp despite giving Bisharp a boost.
There isn't anything that's really broken (Mega Salamence could potentially be a problem to teams) but this is all of the information I have gathered about the meta. Also do note, if you have something that doesn't even hit hard and has a small amount of speed, lacks bulk, and can't even support the team, don't use it please. It's bad.
 
As someone looking to get into triples and playing devils advocate, is there really any reason to play smogon triples over battle spot? Do the pixies and multiple items really add that much to the format? Keen to hear what you guys think
 
As someone looking to get into triples and playing devils advocate, is there really any reason to play smogon triples over battle spot? Do the pixies and multiple items really add that much to the format? Keen to hear what you guys think
It's mostly preference of whether you prefer sims or cart. Smogon triples offers you a bit more variety with some viable mons like kyu-b, keldeo, genesect and jirachi coming into play, although they're not exactly top threats by any means.

As someone who plays both, the biggest difference in my experience is the lack of dark void & perish trap in smogon triples. Which makes the meta a bit less stressful to play compared to battle spot.

The biggest difference though, is the level of play on the ladder. Battle Spot(on cart, not the showdown ladder) has much better opponents compared to the smogon triples ladder. If you really want to face good smogon triples opponents you'd probably have to challenge some better players in some of showdown's rooms rather than playing on the public showdown ladder. Since, as of now, the triples ladder isn't very active and doesn't have too much attention from great players until you get to the very top, even then it's kinda eh.
 
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Just wanted to share an awesome replay here and encourage people to get out and enjoy the meta

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogontriples-215727396

So this post isn't completely wasted and to try and stimulate some discussion back in this thread, what are some of the ways you guys handle teams with multiple trick room users? Unrelated to the video I shared, I faced a team the other day which leaded with Chandelure, Sableye and Aromatisse. The Sableye faked out my taunt user and I couldn't get the ohko on Aromatisse regardless. Is there a way in triples to prevent that kind of setup?
 
Well, there's no universal block to Fake Out just because Mega Lopunny is a thing, but your own Ghosts will usually provide protection from Fake Out -Gengar's good because its STABs are super effective against most Trick Room setters. It also carries Taunt, so if the opponent is running something like Jellicent as their setter and doesn't have Aromatisse on the field you can Taunt their setter, though beware of the possibility of Mental Herb. Your own Fake Outers are also a good way to block non-Ghost Trick Room attempts -Alakazam, Mega Gallade, Hypno and Girafarig are all Inner Focus Pokemon with Trick Room, but I've never seen anyone attempt to run them as Trick Room setters, and they're so fragile it's not surprising, so Fake Out is very reliable against non-Ghosts. (And if you're using Mega Lopunny, the only counter to it is for them to have a Pokemon with Fake Out that's faster than regular Lopunny, which is a smaller portion of the meta than you might think)

Though Aromatisse can't be Taunted regardless due to Aroma Veil.
 
(And if you're using Mega Lopunny, the only counter to it is for them to have a Pokemon with Fake Out that's faster than regular Lopunny, which is a smaller portion of the meta than you might think)
There are some viable quick guard users that are faster than regular lopunny though. Like Meowstic, Talonflame, musketeers.
 

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