SM UU Viability Ranking Thread

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C- > At least C+

Honchkrow is one scary bird. It has a unique typing which is really good offensively (and an immunity to Prankster), high 125 base attack, usable 105 base special attack and below average speed at 71 base speed.

If you know me enough, you saw me using Honchkrow quite a lot lately and know that I have RMT'd a pretty successful team featured Honchkrow. Frankly, the krow doesn't deserve C-. It has a powerful STAB in Brave Bird, a STAB priority in Sucker Punch and a lot of coverage that with again, a usable special attack: Superpower, Icy Wind and Heat Wave.
On top of that, its ability, Moxie, is an ability every sweeper wishes it got.

While not being the best sweeper or balance breaker, Honchkrow does indeed have its niche - arguably one of the best partners to the common Bisharp and Scizor. They both appreciate Honchkrow weakening faster Fighting types such as Keldeo and vice-versa.

You even say Honchkrow is one-dimensional. Let me prove to you it isn't. I tried two sets, which I think are the best ones:

1) All-out Attacker: An early game breaking/balance breaking set. It reaches benchmarks every physical attacker wishes it got - from 2HKOing max defense Clefable to 2HKOing mixed defensive Hippowdon (Hippowdon's most common set).

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit / Superpower
- Superpower / Heat Wave / Icy Wind

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 239-282 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 200-238 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 380-452 (110.7 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Icy Wind vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 198-234 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 406-478 (109.4 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


2) Z-Mirror Move: Ok, this thing is so damn fun to use. Would like to thank pokemon sparrow for suggesting me to use it. It best functions as a late-game cleaner. Z-Mirror Move not only gives you a pseudo-Swords Dance boost, it also copies the last move the opponent has used, in its Z-form. For example, if a Pokémon uses Knock Off against you and you go for Z-Mirror Move, you basically get a free Black Hole Eclipse AND a pseudo-Swords Dance boost. Also, unlike the Life Orb set, it doesn't die TOO fast. This set can't 2HKO Clefable after Leftovers recovery from full so if it's unaware Clefable, well, that sucks for you.

Honchkrow @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Mirror Move

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566242425


Other than these two sets, I can see a few more unexplored sets, such as Z-Snatch to abuse Moxie, Choice Scarf, or even Nasty Plot with Super Luck instead of Moxie.

Let me quote you the definition of C tier:

I will ask you again now. Does Honchkrow really deserve being ranked C-?

tl;dr:
PROS:
  • Good offensive typing
  • A good offensive ability
  • Really strong
  • Versatile
  • Supports and gets supported by common teammates, such as Scizor and Bisharp
CONS:
  • Dies pretty fast
  • Revenge killed by common faster Fighting types
  • Suffers from the 4MSS (the AoA set in particular)
Thanks for reading! :heart:
My problem with Honchkrow right now, despite a majority of your comments holding some truth, is that it is incredibly hard to fit onto a team. It does hit like a truck, I know that from experience. It is pretty dandy anti-offense too. Keep in mind though that Honchkrow is weak to hazards, has thin defenses, and has a subpar speed at best for an offensive threat. I've seen a lot of Hippo running a lot more physical defense than the calc you had up. Might be just my own experience though. The fact that 2 (potentially 3 if Terrakion stays... please no...) incredibly domineering pokemon in Keldeo and Cobalion are so common in the meta just makes it harder to justify a rise in Honchkrow's viability. In terms of an anti-offense role, Honchkrow gets heavily outclassed by Sharpedo-Mega, Bisharp, Aero-Mega, and even Absol-Mega to name some off the top of my head. Mandibuzz outclasses it in terms of support by far. If you built any team with a Honchkrow, you could replace it with Hydreigon or Krookodile, both of which are more versatile, faster, and bulkier. Name something that Honchkrow checks better than any of the aforementioned pokemon in the metagame. As far as I see it, Honchkrow doesn't do anything that a lot of other similar mons can do with even more benefits to offer in general.
 

Amane Misa

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My problem with Honchkrow right now, despite a majority of your comments holding some truth, is that it is incredibly hard to fit onto a team. It does hit like a truck, I know that from experience. It is pretty dandy anti-offense too. Keep in mind though that Honchkrow is weak to hazards, has thin defenses, and has a subpar speed at best for an offensive threat. I've seen a lot of Hippo running a lot more physical defense than the calc you had up. Might be just my own experience though. The fact that 2 (potentially 3 if Terrakion stays... please no...) incredibly domineering pokemon in Keldeo and Cobalion are so common in the meta just makes it harder to justify a rise in Honchkrow's viability. In terms of an anti-offense role, Honchkrow gets heavily outclassed by Sharpedo-Mega, Bisharp, Aero-Mega, and even Absol-Mega to name some off the top of my head. Mandibuzz outclasses it in terms of support by far. If you built any team with a Honchkrow, you could replace it with Hydreigon or Krookodile, both of which are more versatile, faster, and bulkier. Name something that Honchkrow checks better than any of the aforementioned pokemon in the metagame. As far as I see it, Honchkrow doesn't do anything that a lot of other similar mons can do with even more benefits to offer in general.
And that's why I nominated it to C+, not B+ or A-. As I wrote in the post, it has its flaws; it is indeed checked by 3 common Fighting types in Keldeo, Terrakion and Cobalion (even though +3 Sucker Punch does over 50 to both Keldeo and Terrakion) , but C-? Honchkrow doesn't even fit the description of C tier Pokémon and should definitely not be in the same tier as Silvally and Rotom-C are.
 
And that's why I nominated it to C+, not B+ or A-. As I wrote in the post, it has its flaws; it is indeed checked by 3 common Fighting types in Keldeo, Terrakion and Cobalion (even though +3 Sucker Punch does over 50 to both Keldeo and Terrakion) , but C-? Honchkrow doesn't even fit the description of C tier Pokémon and should definitely not be in the same tier as Silvally and Rotom-C are.
What does Honchkrow do that could put him above Darmanitan, Kingdra or Umbreon?
With its base speed, you can do little without an ally helping you by putting the Stiky Web or the Tailwind on the field, unless the plan is to spam Sucker Punch and expect that to lead to a 6-0.
In my opinion, if Honchkrow is in C- it is because he is as useful in the current metagame as everyone else in that class. And for the moment that is something that seems to be true, so why move it?
 
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Amane Misa

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What does Honchkrow do that could put him above Darmanitan, Kingdra or Umbreon?
With its base speed, you can do little without an ally helping you by putting the Stiky Web or the Tailwind on the field, unless the plan is to spam Sucker Punch and expect that to lead to a 6-0.
In my opinion, if Honchkrow is in C- it is because he is as useful in the current metagame as everyone else in that class. And for the moment that is something that seems to be true, so why move it?
Did you just completely ignore the replay I showed?

t'was a 6-0 in this case, but even if the opponent had Keldeo or Cobalion to revenge kill, Honchkrow would just get chip on them for a potential Scizor, Bisharp or Mega-Sharpedo sweep.


I haven't used the krow with webs or tailwind support and I have done quite well. I am really sorry, your argument is really stupid. Why would one expect for a 6-0? Honchkrow shares same checks with Scizor, Bisharp and common dark types in general and has a great synergy with them. You know what differs it from Darmanitan? It's not one dimensional like Darmanitan (don't use CB Darmanitan) and doesn't HAVE to lock itself into one move so set-up sweepers can abuse it.

Do you even realise how great having a free pseudo-Swords Dance boost, on top of copying the opponent's Z-move is? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566659861 (ignore the opponent's team, just look at turn 9, this sitution happens against more experienced players, no offense to my opponent)
 
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I'm not experienced in SM UU besides playing a little bit in the beginning, but let's go over these replays, because I can even tell they are flawed.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566242425
This first replay is much more due to inexperience of the opponent than Honchkrow's actual viability. Instead of simply killing Honchkrow with High Jump Kick when he had in Hawlucha, your opponent actually decides to Swords Dance in its face, dying in the process and then losing. Hardly convincing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-560639937
This replay is actually a proper one and shows off what Honchkrow could provide to a team, killing Clefable and weakening Infernape to open up for a Scizor sweep. Linking this in your initial post would have been much better than the first one.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-560244888
Honchkrow didn't do anything in this game besides getting 60% damage off on Chandelure thanks to a mis-predict, then dying to Flamethrower + Life Orb. I don't know why you linked this.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559981896
This replay is ok, though mostly stems from a mis-predict by your opponent sacking their Jellicent to Brave Bird. Klefki could've dealt with Honchkrow with Play Rough while taking far less damage, as well as saving Jellicent for Scizor, but as you can see, that didn't happen. Not too convincing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559971486
Did you even watch this replay? Honchkrow was literally never sent out.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559956676
Not bad, Honchkrow 2HKOs Raikou and kills it, and then crits Clefable which didn't really end up mattering in the end because Bisharp won at that point. Still not too convincing of a rise all the way to 'at least C+'

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559940348
All Honchkrow does here is revenge kill a 30% Primarina and then get revenged itself by Entei. This is something most Dark or Flying types could have done, so it doesn't provide anything of substance on why it should rise.
Also:
Bisharp used Sucker Punch!
But it failed!

The opposing Kyurem used Roost!
But it failed!
Turn 10

The opposing Kyurem used Earth Power!
It's super effective! Bisharp lost 53.5% of its health!
The opposing Kyurem lost some of its HP!

Bisharp fainted!



All but one of these replays aren't very convincing of giving Honchkrow as big as a rise as you are suggesting. Like I said previously, I am not amazingly experienced in SM UU, so I can't really say if Honchkrow deserves a rise in rank or not, but I would definitely suggest getting better replays if you are trying to make a point on Krow's viability.
 
Did you just completely ignore the replay I showed?



t'was a 6-0 in this case, but even if the opponent had Keldeo or Cobalion to revenge kill, Honchkrow would just get chip on them for a potential Scizor, Bisharp or Mega-Sharpedo sweep.


I haven't used the krow with webs or tailwind support and I have done quite well. I am really sorry, your argument is really stupid. Why would one expect for a 6-0? Honchkrow shares same checks with Scizor, Bisharp and common dark types in general and has a great synergy with them. You know what differs it from Darmanitan? It's not one dimensional like Darmanitan (don't use CB Darmanitan) and doesn't HAVE to lock itself into one move so set-up sweepers can abuse it.

Do you even realise how great having a free pseudo-Swords Dance boost, on top of copying the opponent's Z-move is? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566659861 (ignore the opponent's team, just look at turn 9, this sitution happens against more experienced players, no offense to my opponent)
Honchcrow works on your team, because you use HO dark spam. Its so powerful that the opponent has to send in their fighting types to check it, and take tons of damage from sucker. Which gives sharpedo and bisharp opportunities to sweep. But even tho you have managed to build succesfully with it doesnt mean its any good. It adds nothing defensively and has shitty speed. Under the right circumstances it can do damage sure, but you have to consider how extremely difficult it is to fit it onto a team when you rank it.
 

Amane Misa

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I'm not experienced in SM UU besides playing a little bit in the beginning, but let's go over these replays, because I can even tell they are flawed.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566242425
This first replay is much more due to inexperience of the opponent than Honchkrow's actual viability. Instead of simply killing Honchkrow with High Jump Kick when he had in Hawlucha, your opponent actually decides to Swords Dance in its face, dying in the process and then losing. Hardly convincing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-560639937
This replay is actually a proper one and shows off what Honchkrow could provide to a team, killing Clefable and weakening Infernape to open up for a Scizor sweep. Linking this in your initial post would have been much better than the first one.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-560244888
Honchkrow didn't do anything in this game besides getting 60% damage off on Chandelure thanks to a mis-predict, then dying to Flamethrower + Life Orb. I don't know why you linked this.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559981896
This replay is ok, though mostly stems from a mis-predict by your opponent sacking their Jellicent to Brave Bird. Klefki could've dealt with Honchkrow with Play Rough while taking far less damage, as well as saving Jellicent for Scizor, but as you can see, that didn't happen. Not too convincing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559971486
Did you even watch this replay? Honchkrow was literally never sent out.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559956676
Not bad, Honchkrow 2HKOs Raikou and kills it, and then crits Clefable which didn't really end up mattering in the end because Bisharp won at that point. Still not too convincing of a rise all the way to 'at least C+'

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-559940348
All Honchkrow does here is revenge kill a 30% Primarina and then get revenged itself by Entei. This is something most Dark or Flying types could have done, so it doesn't provide anything of substance on why it should rise.
Also:
Bisharp used Sucker Punch!
But it failed!

The opposing Kyurem used Roost!
But it failed!
Turn 10

The opposing Kyurem used Earth Power!
It's super effective! Bisharp lost 53.5% of its health!
The opposing Kyurem lost some of its HP!

Bisharp fainted!



All but one of these replays aren't very convincing of giving Honchkrow as big as a rise as you are suggesting. Like I said previously, I am not amazingly experienced in SM UU, so I can't really say if Honchkrow deserves a rise in rank or not, but I would definitely suggest getting better replays if you are trying to make a point on Krow's viability.
Just c&p'd the replays from my RMT featuring Honchkrow, was on my way to school when I posted it, probably should've waited until I come back and rewatch the replays and choose the best showcases.

Haven't had much opportunities to play with Honchkrow because of the server restart coming soon (maybe it already came at the time I finish writing this).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-566777137

Let's be honest, not many Pokémon who share the same role with Honchkrow can do as much damage to stall. Lucario is checked by Tangela, Alomomola and Nidoqueen, Bisharp loses to Tangela and Nidoqueen, Scizor loses to a full HP Nidoqueen and Sharpedo loses to Clefable and Alomomola (without getting SpD drops on it). Not saying Honchkrow is better than them by any means, but it has its niche that differs it from other sweepers - most stalls don't have a counter to it. Perhaps this situation is temporary (until people use Keldeo stall) but yeah.

I will provide more replays when I am able to.

By the way,

I have to say, really mature of you. Claps for you. Not going to say anything more than that it didn't change the outcome, won regardless of getting the 50-50 right.


Honchcrow works on your team, because you use HO dark spam. Its so powerful that the opponent has to send in their fighting types to check it, and take tons of damage from sucker. Which gives sharpedo and bisharp opportunities to sweep. But even tho you have managed to build succesfully with it doesnt mean its any good. It adds nothing defensively and has shitty speed. Under the right circumstances it can do damage sure, but you have to consider how extremely difficult it is to fit it onto a team when you rank it.
You summed up the exact reasons Honchkrow should stay. Do C/C+ ranked Pokémon have what you said Honchkrow doesn't? (looking at you, Lucario, Ribombee and Minior).

Azelf also doesn't really have a place outside of HO, yet it is still ranked B.

Not saying Honchkrow does its job better than how Azelf does its job (Azelf does it almost perfectly), but that's not the point. My point is that you can't completely overlook a Pokémon getting raised just because its place is only on hyper offense, though I can see Honchkrow using a Choice Scarf set on bulky offense.

Still, I think you all don't get my point right. I am not nominating Honchkrow to be ranked A. Looking at the Pokémon in C+ or B-, I truly think that Honchkrow deserves having a spot there too.
 
That Honchkrow is better than Riboombe
or Minior does not mean that he should
be in the same rank that they are
currently, but perhaps Ribombee and
Minior should lower their rank. But being
honest, you're right about something, and
there are pokémons that are used less
and doing a worse job than Honchkrow,
and are in higher ranks, like Necrozma or
Venusaur. Based on that you could go up
to Honchkrow to C or C +, but it would still
be the most logical option to lower rank
to those mon who seem to be very high.
 
I'm going to personally disagree on the merits of honchkrow only being good against stall in the first place. Archetypical balance and offense have very solid checks to Honchkrow, and it tends to kill itself anyways with its flying stab mixed with life orb. Lucario has unpredictability, and Alo/Tangela/Nidoqueen can't immediately check it because it has a special set, something Krow would struggle with.

Looking at it, I'm going to say C is probably where it should be.
 
I wanna add that craw daunt and Honchkrow share similar roles, with craw daunt trading higher base speed for no recoil moves. theres other differences obviously but idk i could see a reason for honchkrow to rise to at least like C

weakness to rocks and low survivability really hurts it in terms of like a wallbreaker/part of a dark spam core

on another note anyone else think craw daunt should rise to like B?
its wall breaking/matchup vs slower teams is quite honestly amazing, and it might just be bad ladder players, but if u run an item like splash plate or something, even tho the damage clearly isn't CB, a lot of people just assume ur locked into knock off or crab hammer, and then die to the other coverage lol

viable sets IMO consist of SD, dual stabs and aqua jet, and items can range from Z moves, type plates, life orb, and sash if u wanna lead with craw daunt or have hazard control
If u run sash you'll pretty much always at least trade a kill vs offense
CB is actually not too bad either, as aqua jet can occasionally sweep a HO team, and does massive damage to stall/balance, but is forced out more often

it pairs really well with mons like sharpedo and hydreigon (and dark or water in general), as they enjoy mons like cobalion and alomololol crippled.

252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%)
252+ Atk Splash Plate Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%)

it makes me sad that knock off+ crab hammer isn't a guaranteed KO, but i feel like only unaware runs max def and those are susceptible to rocks at least?

but ya i feel like craw daunt can offer more/same to a team as like reuniclus or zygarde-dog

(also i feel like zygarde dog could drop? its band set isn't like that gr8 imo and its bulk isn't gr8 enough to like reliably set up a DD)
 

Hogg

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When in the chronicle of wasted time
I see descriptions of the bravest birds,
And Honchkrow breaking teams like it's a crime
Just to be shouted down by angry nerds,
Then in the blazon of my forum perms,
Of ban, edit, infract, delete, or warn,
I shall shut down in no uncertain terms
Such blathering discourse—this I forewarn.
So look instead to topics like Gliscor,
Or whether Latias is really S,
And leave this talk of Honch forever more—
At least until these others we address,
Lest Pearl, who now beholds these present posts
Starts to regret his job as the thread's host.
 
I wanna add that craw daunt and Honchkrow share similar roles, with craw daunt trading higher base speed for no recoil moves. theres other differences obviously but idk i could see a reason for honchkrow to rise to at least like C

weakness to rocks and low survivability really hurts it in terms of like a wallbreaker/part of a dark spam core

on another note anyone else think craw daunt should rise to like B?
its wall breaking/matchup vs slower teams is quite honestly amazing, and it might just be bad ladder players, but if u run an item like splash plate or something, even tho the damage clearly isn't CB, a lot of people just assume ur locked into knock off or crab hammer, and then die to the other coverage lol

viable sets IMO consist of SD, dual stabs and aqua jet, and items can range from Z moves, type plates, life orb, and sash if u wanna lead with craw daunt or have hazard control
If u run sash you'll pretty much always at least trade a kill vs offense
CB is actually not too bad either, as aqua jet can occasionally sweep a HO team, and does massive damage to stall/balance, but is forced out more often

it pairs really well with mons like sharpedo and hydreigon (and dark or water in general), as they enjoy mons like cobalion and alomololol crippled.

252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%)
252+ Atk Splash Plate Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%)

it makes me sad that knock off+ crab hammer isn't a guaranteed KO, but i feel like only unaware runs max def and those are susceptible to rocks at least?

but ya i feel like craw daunt can offer more/same to a team as like reuniclus or zygarde-dog

(also i feel like zygarde dog could drop? its band set isn't like that gr8 imo and its bulk isn't gr8 enough to like reliably set up a DD)
I agree with Crawdaunt rising to B. Every time I see it in front of me, I start to look for counters. Then I realize they don't exist. Crawdaunt is a very frightening wallbreaker to say the least. It even has just enough physical bulk to take a neutral hit or two at most. Also, prior experience with using Crawdaunt has shown me that it's an excellent cleaner late game with Aqua Jet. Being a water type also blesses Crawdaunt to check a large majority of ground types, Mega Aero, almost any fire type with the exception of Volcanion depending on the situation, and anything that is too passive for the situation to matter. It's definitely worthy of B rank imo. Adaptability Knock Off is also the most disgustingly stupidly high damage I can think of off the top of my head.
 
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Toxicroak from B- to C+

Toxicroak is honestly so underwhelming this gen. Waters are more offensive, with the additions of Keldeo, Primarina, and Volcanion. Though it is admittedly a good check to Keldeo, it gets blasted by the secondary stabs of the others two. In fact, it fails to even beat Volc in a one on one situation considering it can only force it out if it's choice locked in steam eruption, as otherwise, on one one, it can tank either one of its stabs before obliterating it with FB. It's also no longer a good check to Mega Sharp thanks to the addition of psychic fangs, which has become absolutely mandatory on it.

Additionally, it still struggles to setup a swords dance against most of the tier, since it's pressured by so many faster things, such as Infernape, Krook, and I don't even think I need to mention that Latias is everywhere, and is by far one of the best offensive checks to Croak. Its attack is average at best and it's over reliant on sucker punch against faster teams and there are numerous faster mons that resist said priority moves, such as the aforementioned Nape, Krook, along with Hydreigon.

All in all, Croak is just a really niche choice and isnt as effective in its niche as things like Haxorus or Hawlucha, which are a lot more capable in this meta, and should drop to C+.
 

Moutemoute

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A+ to S


For Latias, I'm clearly on the fence. I totally agree with what was said for this Pokemon but even if it's typing allows it to take hit from many threat of the tier, it provides a lot of weakness too. Scizor is basically "free" (talk about the Bulky one and not Choice Band / Offensive SD) on Latias if it don't run HP Fire, without Roost Clefable can be problematic and without other coverage like Z-Thunder Empoleon can Koff / Toxic / Roar. Even if it has a pretty nice speedtier, Latias is (without Scarf) on the range of many RK (like Krook Scarf, Sharpedo-Mega without Z-Thunder (which K.O even with protect and 0 CM) and basically a lot of Scarf users).

A to A+


I learnt at my expense how deadly Choice Scarf Intimidate Krook is. Basically this things is a real threat in this tier because it has not that much of switch-in. Is amazing offensive typing + coverage (Stone Edge / Superpower / Iron Tail or even Aqua Tail [this option suck tbh]) allows him to lure his common checks (Aerodactyl-Mega for SE, Hydreigon for Superpower and Clefable for Iron Tail). Since you don't know which set you have in face of you, it's kinda difficult to switch on him (Choice Band / Choice Scarf / Z-Me First or SR with Rocky Helmet or Z-Iron Tail) and one mistake can be fatal. I clearly think Krookodile deserve his own A+ rank.

A- to A


Gliscor is probably my fav Pokemon right now and since the beggining of the 7th gen UU. The Swords Dancer has an amazing match-up vs balanced team cuz' we can set-up itself on many Pokémon (and run different option for his last slot like Toxic / Taunt / Façade / Knock Off or Ice Fang) and the Toxic + Taunt can basically break Stall team core. His typing is cool too and his weakness easy to cover. This Pokemon is really difficult to handle if you don't have a powerfull Water or Ice users on your team and I think it's a real mistake to build a team without thinking of Gliscor. Give him a A ! :D

Ø to A-/A

First, if moderator thinks it's too early to talk about Terrakion, np just delete this part of my message (but I guess it's OK cuz' it has a few weeks to see the + / - points of this Pokemon).

So, Terrakion, on the paper look so dangerous (and it was a few months ago at the release of the Underused) but it's not the same in real game. Is typing is cleary not good devensivily which not allows him to set-up like his mate Cobalion with Swords Dance and/or Rock Polish on a lot of Pokemon. I've tested SD Rockium Z and it basically can nuke absolutely everthing at +2 (and OHKO regular things with Continental Crush like Latias for exemple) but he's so hard to set-up him. You really need to build on him if you want Terrakion to be effective and I think that's the main problem. Actually, in UU, people try to cover weakness, to have some switchin for the regular threat and the problem this Terrakion is that it can not switch on a lot of things since even neutral attack are a pain for him. And, the last problem is priority.. Terrakion as a bad typing as I said before that make him weak to a lot of priority (Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave [not common], Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet) which mean that even is you set-up Terrakion at +2 Atk & Spe (and that's basically impossible), your opponent can easy force the switch with things like Scizor, Crawdaunt, Infernape or Conkeldurr.

I didn't talk about Choice Band and Choice Scarf set cuz' I not played them yet but I'm note sure they are that much better than a SD Z-Move.


tl;dr : Latias not sure for S / Krook ok for A+ / Gliscor ok for A and Terrakion A/A-)

PS : Sry if some sentences sucks (I'm kinda dumb in english >o>)
 
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Amane Misa

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A- -> A
I agree with nominating Gliscor to A. It has many roles... and it's pretty damn good at every roll. From being a fast Stealth Rock setter to being a stallbreaker - it's good at everything.

It is arguably the best stallbreaker in a tier because it has two stallbreaking sets - the one Moutemoute posted above (Toxic + Taunt) and another one I have been beaten by - Swords Dance + Toxic. Both sets are pretty hard for stall to handle.

As a Stealth Rock setter - I haven't used it much but I know that it's a really unique one - it has Landorus-T's typing (we all know what Lando does lol), is pretty fast for a Stealth Rock user, it shuts down other Stealth Rock users, it can check really strong physical attackers such as Terrakion, has reliable recovery AND Poison Heal and has access to U-turn.

With Terrakion's unban, I can see Gliscor being more viable than before - as it is a good check to it (Continental Crash is powerful though).

B- -> B
I agree with nominating Crawdaunt to B. I haven't really used Crawdaunt outside of Trick Room but I can say it's one of the most threatening Pokémon out there. Unless you have Chesnaught or Poliwrath, you are going to have many troubles against it. Most teams can't switch well to it - even the common stall teams don't have reliable switch-ins.

Some replays featuring Crawdaunt:


I know that Trick Room isn't the most consistent playstyle out there, but these replays can show you how powerful Crawdaunt it and how almost no team has switch-ins to it.

I think such a Pokémon should definitely get B.
 
been a minute since i posted here, figured id give my thoughts on some noms

- imo gliscor is one of the most splashable mons right now, the defensive utility it brings to both bulky offensive and balance builds alike make it hard to not use sometimes. i almost always find myself wanting to use sd ice fang gliscor just because it soft checks stuff like coba, gengar, bisharp, krook and mien, and being able to set up on most of those mons as well as more defensive stuffs like mew, hippo, amoong, and non ib clefable make it one of the most reliable wincons in the tier right now. sr is also neat as well, pretty much for the same reasons as sd defensively + its access to uturn makes it not a complete momentum suck unlike hippo. altho the metagame has obviously adapted to it quite well given that a lot of things are running ice coverage solely for it, along with the ubiquity of offensive waters and cm lati, the bat is just one of those mons that will wreck you if you dont prepare adequately for it given that it has like 4 different sets that it can run and performs every role its given pretty much as youd want it to as mentioned above, almost as much as clefable latias and zor. i think a mon with those kinds of qualities definitely deserves to be at least A rank in my eyes.

- mega stoise is just one of those mons that is obnoxious to switch in, plain and simple lol. on the nuking side of things it has to face competition with prima and keldeo, who both have better defensive typings, but its ability to dismantle slower builds without having to be locked into a move unlike the other two (or boosting in keldeos case, but you know what i mean) is pretty valuable in this meta. honestly i dont even think the hazard control is really that necessary on it but stoise + talonflame is so potent as an offensive core its insane. definitely a- material for me, especially in a metagame where bulky offense (at least imo) is the most consistent style to go with.

- idk how to feel about gengar. on one hand, pursuit trappers like scarf krook, maero, absol, bish, and zor are all really common right now, but on the other hand, if you dont have suit you are going to get manhandled by this thing. nothing really likes switching into a stab lo boosted shadow ball, and it just matches up rly well with the slow-paced style of most balance cores as of now. scarf sets aren't as popular but it still outspeeds pretty much ever other common scarfer right now and +1 shark, and cursed body is actually pretty clutch late game against some sweepers. gengar is just in a weird spot right now so i dont feel comfortable with either ranking right now, but if i had to choose i guess i would let it stay a -.. its just one of those mons that is kind of matchup dependent, altho it doesnt really do badly vs any playstyle on its own.

- on the other hand i think the meta doesn't like volcanion at all right now - latias is extremely dominant, and maero / keldeo's prominence as always don't make things better for it either. its a wallbreaker that is a pretty good zor check but the sr weakness sucks ass for it and it gets outrun by a majority of the metagame rn. i guess it can kindo f switch into prima as well but ehhh... i just always feel like using keldeo or primarina whenever i wanna use this thing, its typing and stats just dont do enough for it imo.

not gonna really say anything about latias because i think everything that can be said about it has been said by pearl, but that mon is almost the entire reason i use bisharp as my scarfer on some of my teams. its one of those mons that is really hard to not use and cm is pretty much a great choice for any team rn, so it should probably be on the same wavelength as clef and maero imo.
 
- I fully agree with Latias going to S. Life Orb 3 attacks + Roost is good on any kind of offense and serves as a much needed check to stuff like Keldeo, Terrakion, and Celebi without letting Scizor and Bisharp in for free. However, Calm Mind sets with Z crystals elevate Latias from a great, splashable metagame choice to an insanely difficult offensive threat to handle. For example, you could switch in your Clefable, only to be OHKOed by +1 Shattered Psyche, and then Latias lives any subsequent attack from your Scarf Krookodile or Mega Absol and OHKOes that as well. Z Thunder is amaing as well, hitting basically anything you switch in (Clef, bulky Scizor, non AV Metagross) for around 80% damage while having the ability to lead against stuff like Blastoise and Primarina and OHKO them. Dragonium Z is also an excellent set, OHKOing stuff like Hippowdon, Gliscor, and any offensive non-Fairy at +1 without dropping special attack, and also lets it live and OHKO Scarf Krookodile while unboosted. Each of these sets completely negate usual ways of dealing with Latias. Not to mention Latias can also run other sets like Scarf, Healing Wish, or Tailwind to further support its team. Latias is probably equally as splashable as Scizor, if not more, but is extremely tough to defensively answer thanks to the variety of sets it can run.

- Agree with this going to A-. Blastoise destroys bulky offense teams, and with Timid Blastoise being the best set, it threatens the vast majority of the metagame 1v1. It's impossible to OHKO, and it 2HKOs most things that offense uses besides Primarina and Calm Clefable. I don't have too much to add here, but the combination of bulk, power, and ability to reliably spin in most games for partners like Talonflame and Venomoth make it deserving of a raise.

- Disagree with this dropping to B-. Despite the prevalence of Scarf Krookodile and Aerodactyl, both of which I use quite frequently, I think Gengar is a terrifying Pokemon to try to play around. Revenge killing with these Pokemon still usually requires sacking, or at the very least risking, a Pokemon since neither particularly want to switch in directly. One set that I think is most effective is Substitute + Fightinium Z, which has seen some use in UUPL; Gengar doesn't have too hard a time picking up a Sub against something like Clefable or Cobalion, and from there it's almost guaranteed a kill. Destiny Bond is also a really cool last move on Gengar, letting it just remove something like Mega Blastoise or Conkeldurr (or even Aerodactyl and friends if it's Scarf Gengar). Other than that, the standard LO set with Taunt is still great for busting through Hippo or something for a teammate and forces a lot of common Pokemon (Psychics and Fairies especially) out.

- Currently at C-, this should be raised ASAP to like B- or something, simply put its a terrifying sweeper that has many many setup opportunities, and can very easily Quiver + Sleep + Quiver to get 2 boosts. With Sleep Powder and an utterly ridiculous Savage Spinout, it has to be played around extremely carefully to avoid letting it get out of control. Teams without Scizor, Bisharp, or another strong priority user are almost always at risk of losing to it.
 
Onto the discussion points 1st:

I see many ways to deal with Latias along the tier, but I can see why it is hard to play around it. I would vote against for now because darkspam is one of the best offensive options we have currently in the tier, Dark being the second most prominent offensive typing after water in our tier currently. Also 4 moveslots make it really limited to what the team needs, meaning defog, HP fire, Z-coverage moves like thunder, Roost and CM all 5 only have 2 slots (considering Draco and Psyshock are mandatory)
Krookodile to A+ yeah it seems to be that much splashable since scarf ape/terrak arent very popular yet.
Gliscor from what I've used performed well to absorb damage and leave, but I'm not fully convinced of its power to move it one step up.
Mega-Stoise is definitely a yes, It's doing really good. What holds it down is lack of recovery but still.
edit: added a mega-stoise replay (ignore the zebstrika for now):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-569409703
I agree on Starmie, Disagree on Gengar for the same reason as dodmen said above and don't have comments on the others.

I'll be talking bout some stuff that don't seem to be that much relevant, but this may be the time to clean things up.

Silvally to go Unranked
It is standing there at C- with no good sets seen, no clear unique niche, has a little less EVS than required for being offensive and not enough support on its movepool for being defensive.

Arcanine from C+ to C
Really hard to fit on any team defensively and outclassed by entei offensively. Hazards are also harder to remove this gen.

Umbreon from C- to C
Although not being the only wish passer in the tier, It is able to perform its role very well punishing strong attackers with foul play. It is also one of the few safe switch-ins to both Mega-Sharpedo and Latias, While being able to tank a few other things, counters Jellicent who is showing good presence lately etc. I have used it enough to feel like it deserves to be higher.

Ninetales from C to C-
Along with Torkoal, It probably is only suitable for sun teams, but unlike the former it lacks hazards and rapid spin utility, while being frailer and hitting harder.

Flygon, Rotom-C and Rotom-H are pokémon that could have a niche in theory but haven't seen use in practice and I was inclined to nominate for drops aswell, but I'll wait here because if Honchbird did all that to the forum imagine what all these noms will. Porygon 2 could probably move up aswell.
 
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I wanted to give my thoughts on some of the nominations brought up, since I've had some time to play lately, and have been following uupl as well. Also, I was going to make this in iambic pentameter, but this already took way too fucking long to make lol.


Latias absolutely belongs in S. Z Moves really push it from a top tier mon, into borderline oppressive. Scarf Krook is good, don't get me wrong, but Lati is absolutely a large reason behind it's very high usage. The fact that it's so versatile, having access to not only multiple viable Z moves, but also plenty of different sets, from Specs, to Calm Mind, to Roost + 3 Attacks, and even the basic defog set, which I don't run anymore because I think the other sets are better, but it's still a decent enough set. It's typing is also pretty solid defensively, being a good switch in to Keldeo, provided it doesn't click icy wind, and also resisting common types including Water, Grass, Psychic, and Fighting. And thanks to its very good special bulk, and respectable physical bulk, Latias can almost always take at least on hit. Hell, if it Calm Monds on the Clefable switch, it can set up on and beat Clef, which is pretty hilarious imo. Pursuit isn't a garunteed counterplay either, since it needs to be chipped down before it gets killed if it decides to stay in, especially against Aero. Latias is honestly pretty stupid, easy to just slap onto any team, and it's rare for it to not do something in a match, and I think it belongs in S


Nidoking should definitely rise. I personally would like it in A-, but at the very least it should rise to B+. The amount of teams that have no switch ins is insane, and depending on the fourth slot, it can pick whether it wants to bust through Snorlax and Blissey, set up rock, use taunt or sub, or even use Sucker Punch to take out Lati if it really wants to (I've used it, it's not a bad option at all). Of course, being able to take advantage of any Clefable lacking Knock Off or Psychich, which to be fair are legitimate options, particularly knock off, is amazing for it. It's honestly better than all of the stuff in B+ imo, and should at least be there. Hogg explained why this should rise better than I could, so look to his post for more explanation.


Blastoise belongs in A-. This thing can nearly 1v1 the entire tier, thanks to its power and the fact that only STAB super effective moves have any chance of actually taking it down in one hit. It's a good spinner, since the viable spin blockers are all scared of switching into this thing, although hazards do unfortunately wear it down, although Blastoise does beat nearly every viable hazard setter. Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that it takes up a Mega slot, I'd nominate it to like A+ lol. Really good in this meta, I just started using it and I've been really liking it.


As an avid user of Starmie, I do advise everyone to at least try out offensive Rapid Spin, defensive is just ass imo, that set alone is like B rank if anything, I would much rather use Tentacruel. I'm not opposed to a drop, in fact it probably should honestly, but offensive Starmie can be such a menace to switch into. Analytic allows it to really pressure things that try to switch into it, like Latias and Primarina, since even if the Starmie user chooses the "wrong" move, it still does a fair amount of damage, being able to potentially put Latias and Primarina in range of Ice Beam and Psyshock, respectively. Combined with its excellent coverage, and the fact that none of the tier's common pursuit trappers will ever want to switch into this thing, makes Starmie a real prick to switch into for most teams. Obviously, offensive Starmie is not exactly easy to fit on a team, only really fitting on more offensive teams, but the fact that as a spinner it doesn't really forfeit momentum that like Tentacruel or god forbid Forretress, and doesn't take up a Meag Slot, makes it one of offense's best hazard removers imo, especially since unlike Lati it doesn't remove hazards from the opponent's side. It does suffer from 4mss, really wishing it could fit Hydro, Tbolt, Ice Beam, HP Fire, Rapid Spin, and Psyshock on one set, but of course the opponent has to guess what coverage it's running, since Hyrdo is really the only move that really necessary, since Starmie is still effective even without Rapid Spin. I've drones on long enough, so in summary, defensive is bad, offensive is pretty good, I personally oppose a drop, but honestly I would not lose any sleep if it did drop, since I can totally see why someone would want to to drop, so I really don't care where this thing ends up lol. Just don't talk about defensive, since I will fully admit that that set flat out sucks.


Don't really have much to add about Venomoth, Dodmen already covered it, I just started using it, and this thing is fucking awesome, it's been serving me really well. It's way to good for the C ranks imo.

Also, for the rest that I don't have much to say about, or don't feel like expanding on lol

Krook rise to A+
Gliscor rise to A
Gengar stays at A-
Snorlax rise to B-
No comment of Persian, I have literally never used one myself lol
Indifferent about Magneton
Terrakion to A/A+ (I'll need a little more experience facing experienced players using it to really decide, but I feel like upper A ranks is a good ballpark for now)
Arcanine should drop to C, possibly C-, it's ass
Volcanion should drop to B+
 
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Latias deserves S because it can literally fit onto every team archetype and still function very well. It has multiple viable sets, but I personally like using CM+ a Z-Move (Electrium). It feels like a solid glue mon for offense, it does check threats like Keldeo and Starmie.The only problem might be it's easily pursuit-trapped by common Pokemon such as Mega Absol, Metagross, Mega Aerodactyl or Bisharp.
Krookodile also warrants a rise because Scarf+Moxie is deadly. However the bulky sets (Intimidate, SR) just don't work most of the time.
Finally could Metagross move to B-? The AV set checks Latias effectively. It can also check Mega Aero and Clef, both are S-rank mons, with Bullet Punch and Meteor Mash. I can see it as a good anti-meta threat.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I agree with a majority of the discussion point nominations. The ones I do not agree with (Starmie dropping to A- mainly) and the nominations in general are not particuarly important shifts so I do not mind too much one way or the other.

I am going to expand on Talonflame in this post since I had significant experience with it in one of the forum projects but forgot to post there. Specifically, I will argue Talonflame can jump all the way to B+, not just B, because:

  • Talonflame's Z Brave Bird set can easily net two kills per game
  • Talonflame has the speed and, with Swords Dance, the power to pose a large threat in general against nearly all teams
  • Talonflame's defensive problems (low stats, x4 SR weakness, weakness to some common types) are somewhat mitigated by team support and the fact Talonflame usually OHKOs before it is targetted
Talonflame usually receives at least 1 and often 2 kills per game because it has an above average offensive typing with a move pool that supplements it well. After a boost, there are essentially 0 offensive Pokemon that are safe from Talonflame, with Mega Aerodactyl notably being OHKOed after SR and HP invested Mega Blastoise being OHKOed with no prior damage. Like with all Z moves, Talonflame only gets one opportunity, but it is not as if there are lots of defenders willing to take a hit just to waste a Z move. Another great benefit of the Z move is that it lets you keep a priority +2 Brave Bird in the wings - this is usually where the second kill comes from. After hopefully wrecking their "check" with a +2 Z move, you can move on to OHKO other threats like Hydreigon with a +2 Brave Bird. Metagame trends are in Talonflame's favor because there is a dearth of Flying resists and set up opportunities are abundant with the ubiquitous influence of Scizor and Clefable.

Stat distribution is an essential component to viability and Talonflame does above average in this regard, with tremendous Speed and a good enough Attack stat compensated by Swords Dance and high base power moves. Even after the Z move is expended and potential recoil or other damage is incurred, Talonflame still has more speed than most offensive threats, with Scarfers and the hopefully already lured Mega Aerodatcyl being the main exceptions. While the strong match up against offense is intuitive because of that speed, I would also point out bulky balance staples such as Mew, Krookodile and Mega Blastoise all require just minor prior damage or just SR to become Talonflame fodder.

Talonflame is not without its weaknesses; Stealth Rock poses the most significant limitation to Talonflame's viability while its defenses in general do it relatively few favors. However metagame trends once again benefit Talonflame as UU has a significant amount of reliable hazard control, getting rid of Stealth Rock is not difficult with Starmie, Mega Blastoise and Latias, all of which fit well on the offense Talonflame encourages. While the defensive set in particular can abuse its typing, even Z move Talonflame has just enough opportunities to SD nearly every game, including on Hippowdon, Gliscor, Scizor and Clefable. Ultimately these weaknesses may preclude Talonflame from the A ranks, but should not stop its rise to the top of B.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568036776
All it takes is one turn of mishandling Talonflame to get instantly punished and incur significant losses. It is possible the pressure my team put on Hippowdon made my opponent think they had to keep it alive, but that meant too many sacrifices.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568180969
Talonflame makes large contributions in my play in this game because my opponent has no Pokemon faster than Talonflame and they give me an opportunity with Gliscor to set up. I might even have won if I did not misread the text turn 9 where I read Swords Dance instead of Rock Polish...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568032248
Again, Talonflame can make game changing contributions in the very possible event that it outspeeds all of the opponent's Pokemon.


To reiterate, I believe Talonflame functions as a unique threat in the metagame because its powerful priority coupled with natural speed, power, and offensive typing and can be best characterized at B+ viability level.
 
I'm not going to completely disagree with a talonflame rise but I don't believe it could go that further FOR NOW based on:

Removing Hazards is not easy this gen. Rapid spinning into a ghost type nearly always leads to bad conclusions, defogging into a Bisharp is even worse.

Regarding to pifs post: From the replays provided by pif on the post above only the 1st one appealed to me (and even there the oponent could have answered it by not sacking hydreigon) because the others basically show how it sets up swords dance freely on gliscor and the 3rd could even have been a sharpedo sweep if better played by the opponent.
The supporters presented by that team haven't showed much how to mitigate Talon weaknesses

However there are positive points to see:

Rock/Electric are both limited in offensive terms (mainly Mega-aero and Raikou take the role alone, magneton is not supposed to survive a flare blitz anyway)

Tirishia presented some Talonflame sample teams a while ago which I tested and they seem p cool.

So id support it up to B
 
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