Metagame SM Ubers General Metagame Discussion

Ah, okay then. So Ice Beam is good on Mega Mewtwo X, even with Jolly. That makes sense. Thanks for the reply.

And yeah.... Going to the post before this one. The fact that Darkrai got nerfed probably makes Mega Mewtwo Y's usage a bit less prominent. It's probably only good if you have a MAJOR Mega Gengar weakness on your team. And you need something to put it out of commission. Since you have other more powerful options at your disposal. Like, well, Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence, etc etc.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
This thread has been dead for awhile, but now seems a good time to revive it since we got a significant newcomer onto the scene...


Ghost/Fighting | 90/125/80/80/90/125 | Technician​

Marshadow
(along with its unique Z-Crystal) suddenly sprung from the shadows and is legal for use beginning today! I think this little guy merits some discussion as it seems to have a lot going for it. 125 Speed is excellent and puts it ahead of Arceus, and it packs a good punch with unresisted Ghost/Fighting STABs, Bulk Up, and 125 base Attack. Combined with Technician HP Ice to break Salamence and Zygarde, Marshadow can muscle past quite a few defensive mainstays in the metagame as many of Ubers's physical walls can't handle strong physical Ghost STAB, and the Ghost resists in the tier won't enjoy STAB Close Combat either. Spectral Thief's boost stealing ability and Technician Shadow Sneak also gives it some solid RKing utility to completely troll SD Arceus and thwart many would-be revenge killers such as Lunala, Mega Gengar, and Deoxys-A.

I personally think it'll be a pretty good contender in the metagame - it's Speed and coverage make it a massive threat to offense and it has the tools to take on a lot of defensive mons too. What do you guys think?
 
I can see Focus Sash sets combined with Spectral Thief being cool on Marshadow to help it deal with set up sweepers like DD Mega Mence, SD Arceus formes besides Ekiller, which you just Close Combat (they can't even use Extreme Speed on you), SD Groudon, ect, which you then proceed to potentially reverse-sweep your opponent with the stolen boosts. Without a boosting item, it's still able to OHKO Mega Gengar with Shadow Sneak after Stealth Rock anyways.
 
swagger on the switch + spectral thief is also a neat way to force switches or nab boosts for free, its less prediction reliant than one would think since even if u predict wrong and they stay in theres like a 30(?? has this been confirmed)% chance they hit themselves and u still get a free hit

edit: nvm then lol
regardless marshadow will def be a threat, although its somewhat low base attack for Ubers may keep it in check
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 320-377 (83.9 - 98.9%) not an OHKO from full, only 75% chance to kill with rocks, but thats also including Life orb (which i think may end up being standard
 
Last edited:
Even though its STABs both have immunities, I'm kinda liking Choice Scarf as a way to revenge even +1 Mega Mences and Rays, while also freeing up a slot for Rock Tomb to surprise and remove Ho-Oh.

252 Atk Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 420-496 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Gonna drop my thoughts on Marshadow based on experiences. To start off, I think because of this addition, Stall is gonna become much more prominent than it already was. Classic Deo-S Hyper Offense, will die out. I think every team will be forced to use a marshadow check, especially in first couple weeks, when everyone is trying it out. The addition benefits stall. It isn't a stallbreaker, and pretty much every supportarc not weak to one of its stab walls it, along with a couple more, including Mega Sableye, bulky Ho-Oh if marshadow doesn't use Rock Tomb and probably the tip of the iceberg: Toxapex! (Marshadow can't fuck with this lol) I think the offense you will see. Will be primarily Sticky Webs, as it makes Marshadow slower and they wouldn't really care about its presence. Secondly, will be psychic terrain teams. They usually have Deoxys-Attack, and that in terrain is pretty hard to deal with in the first place. Not to mention the presence of Mewtwo, which also outspeeds. Bulky offense, with like a supportarc will most likely be the most common form now to play against marshadow, as it has tanky switchins, like xerneas. I think the viability of every arceus type which is weak to a stab of it, will lower.

As for sets, I think it seems pretty straightforward that the main set will be:

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly or Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Tomb or Hidden Power [Ice]

This set has probably been theorymonned by everyone before its release, and there's no one who can claim the set really. Close Combat and Spectral Thief, give marshadow crazy STAB coverage. It hits everything at least neutral, and hits with nice damage. Spectral Thief, albeit weak, can steal stat boosts. This move is huge on paper. I'd say in practice it lacks a bit. In power, utility, etc. However, it still is it's strongest Physical Ghost STAB marshadow has access to, which is why its used. Shadow Sneak is probably one of its greatest moves. It has so much utility. It OHKO's Mega Gengar, and can revenge kill stuff with quite a lot of power. Hidden Power Ice is used for Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, and Zygarde-Complete. Ice Punch is a bit weak against Mega Salamence (especially after an intimidate) and Zygarde mainly. A Technician boosted HP Ice fits this nicely. Another option which is slashed with it, is Rock tomb. This is mainly for Ho-oh, being able to OHKO it's standard bulky spread 87.5% of the time. Rock Tomb isn't just for Ho-Oh, it also has utility in having speed control, which can help you setup a Z-Geoxern for example. Life Orb is a must-have item on this pokémon I'd say, or it will really lack in power. For it's last slot, there are a bunch of other options as well. Pursuit, Toxic, Bulk Up, to name a few.

All in all, I think Marshadow will have a big impact on the offensive spectrum of the metagame. Though still lacking a bit against stall. I think it's nice, but it is flawed, and not perfect. This pokémon has to come in on a resist, or immunity. Or else it will take heaps. I can safely say Marshadow will be a late game sweeper, and it will also be able to blow holes in some balanced builds. This is pretty much what I think about it lol.
 
Marshadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Tomb / Hidden Power [Ice]

This is almost like a repost of my other submission on this topic, but I'm pretty keen on Focus Sash after playing a few rounds with it. It provides your team with some nice insurance against set up sweepers such as Dragon Dance Mega Salamence, SD Arceus formes barring Ekiller which you CC anyways, and Double Dance Primal Groudon. With these boosts, you could potentially reverse-sweep your opponent thanks to perfect STAB coverage and technician-boosted Shadow Sneak and Rock Tomb / HP Ice. If your team is scared of Zygod, HP ice, even without a boosting item, does some nice chip vs it and is a 3HKO. Otherwise, you'll want Rock Tomb for Def Ho-Oh.

Here's a replay of why I really like Sash rn:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-599206075

Had I have not been Sash'd, I would have just folded. Also, had I just CC'd the Yveltal instead of Sneaking predicting Sucker, I would have reverse-swept.
 
Last edited:

aurora

GODQUAZA
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus


Toxapex @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze

Toxapex, the lord and saviour of OU, suddenly finds itself in a great position as one of the best checks to Marshadow available in Ubers. Maximum investment in HP and Defense ensure that Soul-Stealing Seven Star Strike + Spectral Thief will almost never OHKO Toxapex if it switches into Stealth Rock, unless your opponent is some supreme being that gets the absolute maximum roll on every attack they click. Haze can irritate ordinary Bulk Up variants and I've seen Substitute + Z-Bulk Up as well, which, surprise surprise, also loses (thanks Haze). Band almost never 2HKOes with Spectral Thief after Stealth Rock (but lol Choice Band). Life Orb Marshadow has no hope. Toxapex can also check annoying Pokemon such as Mega Blaziken, Z-Geomancy Xerneas, and Mega Lucario quite well and can use certain Arceus formes, such as Arceus-Water lacking Defog, as setup fodder for Toxic Spikes. At a cursory glance, Skarmory, Celesteela, Zygarde-C, and Blissey sound considerable as teammates; Blissey is great additional anti-Xerneas insurance while the former three deal with most Ground-types (Celesteela and Zygarde also aren't total Gengar bait but God knows why you would want to force a trade with this).



Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Roost
- Toxic

Defensive Yveltal was already an interesting choice as a hard stop to Arceus-Ghost and general deterrent to most physical attackers thanks to Dark Aura-boosted Foul Play, but it is also a very effective Marshadow check. Marshadow isn't breaking this from full health either. If Stealth Rock isn't up Band hardly ever 2HKOes switch-ins with Close Combat while Life Orb will just fail completely. Possible Substitute Marshadow lose if this is healthy enough, and if they're some shit like Z-Bulk Up they will still fail to OHKO 75% health Yveltal with Close Combat. Foul Play OHKOes. Soul-Stealing Seven Star Strike sets don't do shit. I don't even know if Choice Band is that great or not considering the mindgames it has to play with Normal / Ghost cores (plus it's been, what, 24 hours since this dropped?), but I'm mentioning it in this post for posterity.
 
Last edited:
I know that hack says this is dumb, and he's probably right, but I could see it working:

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Filler
- Recover
- Judgment
- Shadow Ball

With Arceus-Dark out of the picture while the new-toy syndrome regarding Marshadow still exists, Arceus-Fairy becomes a decent choice for a dark type resist. Using Arceus-Fairy as your dark resist causes Lunala to become a problem, and Shadow Ball enables Arceus Fairy to win the 1v1 vs specs Lunala, which I see becoming much more common with the release of Marshadow. It also still allows Arceus-Fairy to hit Gengar, which is something Earth Power was intended for. Filler moves can include Defog, CM, Stone Edge, Toxic, Stealth Rocks etc...Unlike Xerneas, this thing gets recovery and all the usual benefits along with being an Arceus forme.

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Fairy: 140-165 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Fairy: 231-273 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Fairy: 160-190 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 219-258 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Arceus-Fairy Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 128-152 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 61.4% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Fairy Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lunala: 256-304 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I think Marshadow is a bit better versus defensive teams than people give it credit for. A lot of people say it gets blanked by Supportceus but that's not always true - the standard supportceus on stall nowadays is 192 Speed Timid Arceus-Ground (aka the one you use so you don't die to Lucario) which is 2HKOed by LO Close Combat after Stealth Rock:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Ground: 200-238 (45 - 53.6%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (~35% w/o SR)

Even 132 Def Bold Supportceus is taking 39-46% from LO CC so with a minor bit of chip damage from, say, Toxic PDon, Marshadow has a very realistic chance of breaking through. That's not to say stall can't handle Marshadow - Phys Def Toxapex, Defensive Ho-Oh (no SR or Rock Tomb), and healthy Phys Def Mega Sableye (unless Marsh has Bulk Up and Sab lacks Wisp) can check it - but I think stall builds will have to be reconfigured as the old standard of Lugia/Giratina/Groundceus/Clefable/Muk-A/Ferrothorn won't work well anymore in a Marshadow meta. I'm willing to bet the "modern" stall team will shift to focus around Toxapex and/or Ho-Oh builds.

Marshadow's performance against HO is pretty stellar though. It struggles to come in on much but no offensive mon really wants to switch in on this thing aside from max Defense Xerneas as LO CCs will pummel PDon and its coverage + Sneak will take out almost anything else. It's possible Z-Geomancy Xerneas will overtake the standard offensive setup for HO teams to give such teams a mon that can switch into Marshadow while still posing a sweeping threat - standard GeoXern can't really do this as it is 2HKOed by Spectral Thief (80% chance w/o SR). I think it will be interesting to see how this mon changes the meta.
 
While I'm not going to deny the positives that the Life Orb Marshadow sets bring for the Pokemon (perfect STAB coverage backed by amazing speed and coverage), and I still think it's a nice set for it and all and shouldn't be excluded from conversation, my main issue with Life Orb Marshadow is, however, is how it can't really stop any set up sweeper that boosts their speed, such as DD Mega Mence, Polish Don, DD Rayquaza, (Z) GeoXern (while ik Marshadow realistically can't 1v1 most Xerneas from full, the point here is to steal its boosts with Spectral Thief and halt the sweep, similar to how Heart Swap Magearna does it), Mega Blaziken, ect. All these listed mons (besides Blaziken, but Marshadow will fall to Life Orb recoil the next turn anyways) will OHKO Marshadow if they have been given the chance to set up.

I feel that, despite the noticeable drop in power that not having a Life Orb brings and its worse matchup vs stall, Focus Sash should have some merit as its own set as well alongside the Life Orb one to better its matchup vs (hyper) offense teams, where I feel the LO set has the potential to struggle against in my opinion.
 
I've been running substitute on Marshadow to good effect.

It eases predictions quite a bit (which is important when your STABs have immunities), but also allows you to steal the boosts of Pokemon that try to set up in front of you. For example, if Xerneas is sent out and you're certain it's not scarf, you can substitute on the turn it goes for geomancy, and then steal the boosts turn two. You'll still die to Moonblast, but it does prevent the sweep.

Also: Tailwind. Tailwind is pretty fun with Marshadow.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I've played a little against Marshadow but its been kinda just whatever ladder games and but I feel Marshadow will push the meta into a Balance/BO meta with mons like Scarf Xern/Ybird and defensive variants of ybird really coming back as strong sets, and zygarde invested into spdef as well as pogre all becoming mainstays in the meta, as Marshadow still lacks bulk and power without boosts, its essentially an upgraded Darkrai with Spectral Thief, and doesnt get huge opportunities to get into the situation that it wants against bulky teams, since it is essentially the "2HKO King". Standard HO's viability will be nerfed or at least ones that don't run things that specifically are meant to deal with Marshadow like Chople Arc + Scarf Xern or smthg. I defo see Marshadow becoming a ~A via ranking mon, since it rivals Lunala in power (with LO), although having a little less defensive utility, it trades it for coverage and Spectral Thief. I could see Scarf having a niche, however outside of cteams, I don't see anything but LO and possibly niche Z-Move sets, being used, as w/o LO Marshadow has relatively disappointing power. Stall has quite good ways of dealing with the mon, but the switch towards more balance oriented teams could make the stall MU in ubers less daunting, as balance always has a good chance of beating stall unlike certain HO builds. With Standard HO getting a hard nerf, we could also see the appearance of Psychic Terrain and Sticky Webs as the main HO styles in the tier. Scarf Lele being a decent revenge killer for Marshadow also makes mons that would be revenged like Deo-A, MGar and Mewtwo Variants a bit better, while Webs can run things like special groudon or pogre as big breakers. There are quite a few mons I expect Marshadow will decrease the viability on. The first is Jolly SD Don, which I personally feel like is possibly the most threatening PDon set, since it wins against most teams or at least puts in significant work, with only Arc-Ground and Gira-O being a very reliable answers. I also expect Lunala and MGar usage to go down, moreso luna as it was the defacto ghost on offensive teams but now Marshadow is a very good alternative. Luna will now be delegated to more of a breaker with specs or z-move which is good for it, since it can explore many of its different options to come back into relevancy. SD Arc-Forms, specifically Ground and Ghost are probably not going to be seen as much, which definitely gives rise to other options, I personally love the CM variant of Arceus-Ghost, esp with Z-Shadowball. I am excited for more mons to be joining Ubers, and hope to explore the meta further! I also hope to use MGarde and MLopp at some point as I think they both have some potential in some areas as we look forward to 11/17 the release of USM!
 

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
"F to pay respects" get outta here. HO isn't dying, even if the meta is going to lean more balance (hardly a bad thing), but Marshadow is a fantastic pokemon for HO to use, and comes as a spinblocker for hazard stack HO as well. Unresisted dual stab coming off of 125 attack and the same speed as darkrai can pressure a fair number of pokemon commonly found on balance, and is a massive boon for against other offenses, obviously. HO isn't close to dying just because there's one mon introduced that does well against it, and the built-in check for HO against stuff like Ekiller, sd arceus formes, fast psychics, and a revenge killer of scarf lunala isn't anything to scoff at.

On another note, I haven't tried the bulk up zmove set outside of like 2 games, what do people think about it? I was struggling to find room to set up on anything.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
"F to pay respects" get outta here. HO isn't dying, even if the meta is going to lean more balance (hardly a bad thing), but Marshadow is a fantastic pokemon for HO to use, and comes as a spinblocker for hazard stack HO as well. Unresisted dual stab coming off of 125 attack and the same speed as darkrai can pressure a fair number of pokemon commonly found on balance, and is a massive boon for against other offenses, obviously. HO isn't close to dying just because there's one mon introduced that does well against it, and the built-in check for HO against stuff like Ekiller, sd arceus formes, fast psychics, and a revenge killer of scarf lunala isn't anything to scoff at.

On another note, I haven't tried the bulk up zmove set outside of like 2 games, what do people think about it? I was struggling to find room to set up on anything.
First stage of grief is denial...

But seriously it's certainly not just Marshadow. Lunala, Marshadow, Zygod, the increased usage of Yveltal, and the increased usage of stall are the reasons why its dead.
 
I don't know if it's part of how the move works or a glitch, but at least based on my experience with yesterday's showdown mechanics, Spectral Thief is able to use its speed boosts on the same turn that it uses Spectral Thief. It can use this to gain "priority" against things that boost speed as long as your unboosted speed is faster (DD MSalamence for instance), which in effect allows you to duplicate much of Ditto's functionality in one moveslot.

This also makes Marshadow an easy counterplay to almost any kind of BP strategy, especially slow pass, in AG (since Spectral Thief also hits through subs), but BP isn't allowed in ubers so that's not necessarily relevant.

Granted, I don't know if this is how the move actually works, as I've only used it on the simulator, but the ability to use the opponent's speed boosts on the turn you use Spectral Thief is incredibly useful if this is how it actually works in the game.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I don't know if it's part of how the move works or a glitch, but at least based on my experience with yesterday's showdown mechanics, Spectral Thief is able to use its speed boosts on the same turn that it uses Spectral Thief. It can use this to gain "priority" against things that boost speed as long as your unboosted speed is faster (DD MSalamence for instance), which in effect allows you to duplicate much of Ditto's functionality in one moveslot.

This also makes Marshadow an easy counterplay to almost any kind of BP strategy, especially slow pass, in AG (since Spectral Thief also hits through subs), but BP isn't allowed in ubers so that's not necessarily relevant.

Granted, I don't know if this is how the move actually works, as I've only used it on the simulator, but the ability to use the opponent's speed boosts on the turn you use Spectral Thief is incredibly useful if this is how it actually works in the game.
Just tested this on PS! main, it did not work how you described. Marshadow doesn't benefit from Speed boosts until the turn after it steals them.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
I don't know if it's part of how the move works or a glitch, but at least based on my experience with yesterday's showdown mechanics, Spectral Thief is able to use its speed boosts on the same turn that it uses Spectral Thief. It can use this to gain "priority" against things that boost speed as long as your unboosted speed is faster (DD MSalamence for instance), which in effect allows you to duplicate much of Ditto's functionality in one moveslot.

This also makes Marshadow an easy counterplay to almost any kind of BP strategy, especially slow pass, in AG (since Spectral Thief also hits through subs), but BP isn't allowed in ubers so that's not necessarily relevant.

Granted, I don't know if this is how the move actually works, as I've only used it on the simulator, but the ability to use the opponent's speed boosts on the turn you use Spectral Thief is incredibly useful if this is how it actually works in the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-601781510
That doesn't seem to be how it works. Maybe you were in a situation like Tailwind or Trick Room?
 
I don't know if it's part of how the move works or a glitch, but at least based on my experience with yesterday's showdown mechanics, Spectral Thief is able to use its speed boosts on the same turn that it uses Spectral Thief. It can use this to gain "priority" against things that boost speed as long as your unboosted speed is faster (DD MSalamence for instance), which in effect allows you to duplicate much of Ditto's functionality in one moveslot.

This also makes Marshadow an easy counterplay to almost any kind of BP strategy, especially slow pass, in AG (since Spectral Thief also hits through subs), but BP isn't allowed in ubers so that's not necessarily relevant.

Granted, I don't know if this is how the move actually works, as I've only used it on the simulator, but the ability to use the opponent's speed boosts on the turn you use Spectral Thief is incredibly useful if this is how it actually works in the game.
Do you have the replay?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top