Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Terrible comparison. Aegislash warped the meta around it while Greninja is adapting to the meta. Don't compare these two Aegisalsh is leagues ahead of Greninja.
I'm sick of this versatility shit. Versatility is good but it doesn't single handedly keep a mon out of s rank or put it there. So ur telling me if Aegislash is legal it can't be s because everyone runs the same shit on it. Greninja is not versatile it attacks or it lays up hazards it can run different moves but that just leaves it beat by different shit. This mon isn't S right now. It loses to some of the most common Pokemon. I don't care if it can run one move to beat that shit it cant run them all at the same time so it loses to that.


Also just a side note ur using dpulse greninja as an arguement

Edit: Gary just had to snipe the post while I was writing this with exactly what I said I've been duped
This is a reply to you and Gary

You are both taking the Aegislash mention a bit too far. It was not intended as a direct comparison, so it should not be interpreted as such. It was intended to show that not ALL sets of a mon need to be S ranked in order for it to be an S ranked Pokemon. I'm not saying it should be S ranked for the same qualities; that is fucking moronic.

I disagree with your (collective) views that versatility to the extent that greninja carries is not S worthy. Yes, I used D Pulse as an example. It's to show that no matter HOW the meta adapts, Greninja always has a coverage option to hit what it wants. Do you want to lure in opposing Mew and KO? Run DPulse and it can't Defog your spikes and wall you. My point is that you can tailor Greninja to your team's needs, which I believe is more than enough to be S ranked. It doesn't matter how narrow/unviable the niche you want is; Greninja can pretty much do what you need.

Obviously, arguing against the moderator of this thread is more or less beating a dead horse, but I feel compelled to posit my opinion on the matter and to clarify what both of you took issue with.
 

Leo

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*rolls eyes*

Can you be a little more open eyed here? Being this literal is incredibly unproductive to this thread—no, to any discussion whatsoever.

If my point really needs to be spelled out in the plainest English because people cannot read between the lines, fine:

Greninja can be tailored to KO a staggering amount of the metagame, and the fact that you can simply fill enormous gaps in your team just by playing around with the coverage options is an unmatched quality in our metagame and I value it above nearly all else.
Ok this needs to stop. The argument of "Greninja can run any coverage move it wants and even Spikes so it's S rank versatile" is fundamentally flawed, yes you can run whatever you want in theory and support your team but in practice there are some moves you can't not use. Hydro Pump for once is needed because you can't just sit there vs Heatran and Tyranitar, ig Low Kick is an option here too for that matter. Spikes is a big element and there's very little not to use them+non Spikes ninja goes against your logic of "it spikes vs every mon that remotely beats its set", since you want to keep your Spikes you need dpulse to pressure Mew, which leaves you with hardly 1 spare move slot, where you have to choose between Ice Beam for other Defoggers, Extrasensory for Pex and Venu which are really common rn, HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Gunk for Tapu Fini if thats still a mon etc. You can obviously run 4 different moves and get away with it every now and then but that doesnt change the fact that without these moves it's going to have a hard time doing its job. 4 Attacks has more verdatility but at the cost of not running one of the best moves rn, which doesnt let you punish some of your actual switchins as hard as you wish you could. You can also come back with the argument that "its teammates complement the moves it picks" but even if your team pressures Heatran a Hydro less ninja is going to be walled to hell and back by Heatran and in practice thats really counterproductive. How can you compare such a mon to the 2 biggest offensive and defensive threats in the meta in Landorus and Magearna? I dont get it
 

Gary

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The "tailored to fit every team's needs" is drastically overused and honestly is not nearly as realistic as people make it out to be. There's only really like one slot that Protean Greninja can really interchange, but other than that, I think Vertex's post summed up my thoughts on Greninja very well, and its seemed to completely go over people's heads. There is no Greninja set in this meta that can afford to be walled by Heatran/Tyranitar. Allowing those Pokemon free switch-ins can be extremely punishing, and giving something like Heatran a free Sub or Mega T-tar a free DD is just not at all beneficial. While Extrasensory wasn't really needed as much a few months ago, it's very nice to have now because of Venu and Pex balance rising so much in viability. Then of course, if you're running Spikes, you have to run Dark Pulse or Ice Beam somewhere otherwise u are a sitting duck vs the most common hazard removers in the tier, and or walled by Tangrowth. If you aren't running HP Fire, Magearna, Steela, and Ferrothorn are really annoying as well. The only set that can afford to run so much coverage is 4 attacks, but that misses out on a ton of support that Spikes/T-spikes brings, and once again that set also needs to absolutely run certain moves to really stand a chance against most of the top meta threats.

Greninja adapting its coverage to the metagame works for and against it. By running moves like Sensory to adapt to the influx in Pex and Venu, it's forced to give up other useful coverage for other mons. So in exchange Greninja is in a constant state of being walled by a handful of things and shifting its coverage based on the popularity of said checks, but it never completely works out in its favor because most balance teams will carry multiple answers to Greninja's coverage without even trying.

Also fuck Leo. I'm not really a fan of where this Greninja discussion is going anyway because it's just a bunch of old rehashed arguments, and as of now, the council is not looking at ranking Protean Greninja in S at the moment. Why don't you guys discuss the new Megas or something lol.
 
Ok this needs to stop. The argument of "Greninja can run any coverage move it wants and even Spikes so it's S rank versatile" is fundamentally flawed, yes you can run whatever you want in theory and support your team but in practice there are some moves you can't not use. Hydro Pump for once is needed because you can't just sit there vs Heatran and Tyranitar, ig Low Kick is an option here too for that matter. Spikes is a big element and there's very little not to use them+non Spikes ninja goes against your logic of "it spikes vs every mon that remotely beats its set", since you want to keep your Spikes you need dpulse to pressure Mew, which leaves you with hardly 1 spare move slot, where you have to choose between Ice Beam for other Defoggers, Extrasensory for Pex and Venu which are really common rn, HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Gunk for Tapu Fini if thats still a mon etc. You can obviously run 4 different moves and get away with it every now and then but that doesnt change the fact that without these moves it's going to have a hard time doing its job. 4 Attacks has more verdatility but at the cost of not running one of the best moves rn, which doesnt let you punish some of your actual switchins as hard as you wish you could. You can also come back with the argument that "its teammates complement the moves it picks" but even if your team pressures Heatran a Hydro less ninja is going to be walled to hell and back by Heatran and in practice thats really counterproductive. How can you compare such a mon to the 2 biggest offensive and defensive threats in the meta in Landorus and Magearna? I dont get it
My issue with this line of discussion is that it seems as if you're assuming the opponent KNOWS all 4 moves Greninja is running. It's so easy to bluff Hydro/Low Kick and then set up Spikes on the switch. Greninja's coverage lets it take advantage of a lot of bluffs, which is whyyyyyy I am so adamant about my argument about versatility. Yeah, it can threaten MORE of the metagame with the coverage options you listed, but—and you were quick to write this off—Greninja has a team behind it. The issue isn't that Greninja has a team to cover it but rather IT supports its team. If the team only NEEDS Spikes, then you can run Spikes plus moves that pressure defoggers. If it NEEDS coverage and a good speed tier, you can run AoA. The most important thing is that Gren's move set is entirely foreign to an opponent until it's scouted, which can mean a lot of unnecessary chip damage, which is pretty much the crux of why you want it in the first place.

edit: didn't see Gary's post, so I'm sorry if it seems I'm harping on. Uh, M-Alt looks like poop or whatever.
 

cityscapes

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*rolls eyes*

Can you be a little more open eyed here? Being this literal is incredibly unproductive to this thread—no, to any discussion whatsoever.

If my point really needs to be spelled out in the plainest English because people cannot read between the lines, fine:

Greninja can be tailored to KO a staggering amount of the metagame, and the fact that you can simply fill enormous gaps in your team just by playing around with the coverage options is an unmatched quality in our metagame and I value it above nearly all else.
man it's not that unmatched

look at sd z move lando. you can take your pick between flyinium and rockium and pretty much ohko any defensive mon at +2 depending on your choice for 1 moveslot. meanwhile it also brings other utility in sr and it can just sweep some stall teams after setting up sd, protean gren can't break defensive teams on its own and i mean giving up a slot for spikes is good but you lose a lot as well by giving up that thicc extra attack

look at sg magearna. it can run like 4 different z crystals and it can pick and choose its coverage options depending on what you want it to kill. also if it successfully lures in the "check" then it can just snowball because of soul heart.

man when i look at gren i don't see any of these qualities. like sure you can lure in a mon and kill it maybe, but then your opponent has a clue as to what moves you're running and they can abuse this information. they can't do this with magearna because a kill nets it +1 spa, or with z move lando because you can't wall z move lando lol.

because of this i think gren should stay in a+
 
Honestly it's moments like these that I wish Ash-Gren and Protean Gren were just merged into one slot, the part that really pushes Ash Gren up is how Protean actually makes Ash Gren unpredictable and how both work on the same teams and provide absurd amounts of momentum. While the part that makes Protean Gren scarier is how even if you can predict it's set you still have to switch into the mon that gets lured by it because the threat of it being Ash Gren and just getting bodied is also there. Ash Gren is the more consistent of the two but both cover so much shit and are scary as hell it's not something you can easily cover as each form in a vacuum, as the amount of momentum Greninja provides the first turn it's out is actually ridiculous.
 

Gary

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Yeah that's never going to happen. Both are vastly different Pokemon despite sharing the same base form. The unpredictability argument between the forms is also vastly blown out of proportion, much like its coverage. It's nothing like the Charizard-X/Y fiasco last gen where both forms shared vastly different checks and counters, and one of them carries a set up move that could potentially lose you the game. The moment Greninja uses its first attack, all form of unpredictability is thrown out the window because from that point on you will know exactly what form you're going up against and how to play accordingly. Unlike the Zards, both of them share common check/counters initially, so it's pretty risk fear going into something like AV Gear, Celesteela, Pex, Mantine, or Mega Venu to an extent. Pex is practically 100% risk free because full SpD (which is the most common set these days) only takes like 63% max from a LO Sensory if they do try to predict you, and then it just pivots out and gets back most of its health.

To be honest, at least when I'm battling, that initial period of not knowing what Gren it is never really seems like much of a concern to me. Most teams these days mindlessly have multiple Gren pivots that allow you to play it pretty safe without having to worry so much about potentially getting fucked over. The only time I think I ever worried about it was when Fini was considered like the only Ash Gren switch-in and people would just brainlessly pivot it into every Gren they came across. Nowadays, most teams just don't have that issue anymore, so that honestly has very little to do with both Gren's viability IMO.
 
Mega latios at c- or unranked
Right now theres no reason to use this over regular latios bar the very niche dragon dance set wich just isnt good and is outclassed by every other dragon dancer in ou.
On top of all this it gives mage free setup. Its a waiste of a mega slot and just isnt good.
 

pyu

formerly pyubae
Gastrodon B- --> B or B+

Gastrodon is a highly undervalued mon with a massive niche in the metagame that few viable mons can pull off. Gastrodon not only functions as a counter to protean greninja (inb4 grass knot greninja messes up my point), but can also switch in on specs regular greninja's water attacks and gain spatk off them, giving it the offensive pressure to make a scald or an earth power really hurt whatever comes in. Since it all but forces ash greninja users to get locked into dpulse (which still doesnt matter because gastrodon isn't even 2hko'd), and acts as a relatively good counter to protean greninja, koko, and has good special bulk when invested, I think this mon should easily rise.

Gastrodon does face competition from AV mage as mage has more offensive presence and can check the same mons as gastrodon, but magearna doesnt have reliable recovery, and can easily get worn down from taking repeated hydro pumps from specs ash greninja and dark pulse from protean greninja. Also gastrodon synergizes well magearna, so AV mage and gastrodon can make up a tough specially defensive balance core that can beat special offense threats, and gastrodon is a good partner to shift gear magearna, as magearna appreciates it walling rain threats like kingdra, as well as greninja and ash greninja.

Overall, I think a mon with a niche that can check/counter some of offenses biggest threats shouldnt be dwelling in B-, even if it is pretty passive without the storm drain boost it gets.

Also, it has received a buff in the form of mega diancie, which is a steller partner to gastrodon as it prevents hazards, which are key to gastrodon checking a few mons.

Calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 133-157 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 136-162 (31.9 - 38%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
**note*** it can't switch into the ash form of greninja, but if you can get it in via eject button or sack or predict a hydro pump, you can easily beat it w/ toxic
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 229-271 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 115-136 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
**note** rocks do matter, so make sure to bring a good defogger or two or mega diancie to partner with gastrodon

etc.
 
Mega latios at c- or unranked
Right now theres no reason to use this over regular latios bar the very niche dragon dance set wich just isnt good and is outclassed by every other dragon dancer in ou.
On top of all this it gives mage free setup. Its a waiste of a mega slot and just isnt good.
Mega Latios isn't even ranked, so I don't see any point in "unranking" it. But I agree with the fact that it's vastly outclassed, so it's better to leave it at that. I thing we have enough blacklisted Pokemon as is.
 


Mega Latias to either B or B+.

I'm loving this mega in the current meta, specifically for its Reflect Type set. It gives Balance teams a new sturdy Mega Charizard Y answer that has an offensive presence and is, more importantly, NOT trapped by Dugtrio, unlike Toxapex. However, by virtue of its typing, it's still threatened by Tyranitar on these Zard Y teams. That's where Reflect Type comes in. By copying Tyranitar's typing, Pursuit hits Mega Latias like a wet paper bag, and Mega Latias can then beat it 1v1. Reflect Type also has other uses, such as preventing Ferrothorn from gaining Leech Seed recovery and helping Latias resist Gyro Ball, while also shielding itself from Heatran's Toxic, which then lets it stall out Heatran's Magma Storms a lot easier despite now being hit by it neutrally. Funny enough, copying Heatran's typing is nice for Mega Latias as it still has Levitate, removing the 4x Ground weakness that comes with it. Utilizing BoltBeam coverage as its main attacking moves lets it hit most of the tier for SE damage as well, such as Celesteela, Zygarde, Lando-T, Toxapex, Tangrowth, ect.

Mega Latias can also run Thunder Wave over Reflect Type if it wants to spread status, or run CM sets with Stored Power and either Thunderbolt or Surf to dismantle fatter teams, but I feel Reflect Type is what really deserves it to be ranked in the B's.​
 
Gastrodon B- --> B or B+
I support this gastrodon is really good right now.
and to add to this nom, we got a very scary mon in mega diancie (which i believe should be A/A+ tbh) recently which gastrodon laughs it since it walls it too
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 148-175 (34.7 - 41%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 170-204 (70.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega diancie is frail af

Whats really good about it right now that it can counter alot of big threats like boths grens, tapu koko, diancie and magearna and a check to kingdra on rain all in the same slot

It also beats both sg-z and sg cm mag without taking up the mega slot bye venusaur
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 170-200 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gastrodon: 176-208 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All in all, i support a gastrodon raise since it walls so many of the top threats right now (bulu and zard y are an annoyance to it though)

Scarf Infernape is easily one of the best scarfers for bulky offense, I know I literally use Infernape all the time but Infernape is genuinely my go to scarfer when building teams for bulky offense. Magearna is such a bullshit mon that post shift gear Magearna can literally just 6-0 bulky offense because the only consistent switch in is mega Scizor which has to be above 60. Volcarona is another Pokemon that shits on TTarless bulky offense (I've been seeing Bug Buzz return too) and having scarf Nape shit on two of the most threatening sweepers is amazing. Also beats M-Scizor Automatize Celesteela etc which bulky offense can struggle with at times. Best part is unlike some scarfers (Chomp and Keldeo) you don't lose a shit ton of momentum when running it due to U-turn providing great offensive utility.

Scarf Infernape also does well vs HO due to how strong fire STAB is, U-Turn allows you to shift momentum in your favor vs balance especially if you have something like Dug and he does well vs stall for similar reasons.

I think Infernape is severely underrated, genuinely think more teams should run it in bulky offense instead of having to click X when they face common mons like Tyranitar, Magearna, etc.. You don't know how many times I've heard that lol. I support Nape to B personally but B- is probably more reasonable since I understand I'm the only one who is retarded enough to really be dedicated to this mon.
Also i support a nape raise, infernape is really good rn too, not much to say its a good scarfer that can beat mag from full consistently (almost non-existent) and at the same time beat volcorana in the same slot, thats pretty invaluable tbh.
 
Definitely Mega Latias -> B+

Reflect Type Mega Latias checks a lot of good mons and cores rn.

- Non-Fleur Magearna

- Most Zygarde sets

- Lando-T (one of the BEST checks to it)

- Bulu

- Non Bug Buzz Volcarona

- CharY Teams in general

- Keldeo

- Garchomp (fears DClaw but comes in for free on EQ and outspeeds/KOs with ice beam)

- Koko

- Choice locked Lele


I don't think the mega opportunity cost is nearly as high as it was earlier in the meta with MMeta around or even back in ORAS. All of the best mons in the meta (see: the A+ and S mons) aren't megas, and you're hardly required to use one of the three breaker megas in A when there's plenty of other viable non-mega breakers.
Basically it's really good
 
Omastar should stay at C-.

Let's be real here, you're not running it over Swampert, you're running it over Kingdra. In case we've forgotten it still has a sizeable niche over Kingdra, namely that it can blow away Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Tangrowth with its Waterium-Z sets, something Kingdra does not accomplish. I would say that's enough of a niche for it to keep its C- ranking.

+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 346-408 (98.2 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Rain: 329-387 (81.4 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 577-681 (82 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Kabutops, on the other hand, is a beyblade. Unrank that shit.
 
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This isn't exactly an in-depth post or anything, but I agree that Mega Latios isn't worth the mega slot anymore, especially compared to regular Latios sets like Scarf (which is imo the best offensive defogger in the tier rn). Mega Altaria seems to fit around B or B+, as while it can be really good, steels give it a hard time. Mega Diancie is B+ or A- for me, as it's extremely powerful and appreciates the speed buff, but still struggles against Steel-types like Celesteela and Skarmory.

Also unrank both Omastar and Kabutops cause they're both bakugans
 
This isn't exactly an in-depth post or anything, but I agree that Mega Latios isn't worth the mega slot anymore, especially compared to regular Latios sets like Scarf (which is imo the best offensive defogger in the tier rn). Mega Altaria seems to fit around B or B+, as while it can be really good, steels give it a hard time. Mega Diancie is B+ or A- for me, as it's extremely powerful and appreciates the speed buff, but still struggles against Steel-types like Celesteela and Skarmory.

Also unrank both Omastar and Kabutops cause they're both bakugans
Uhhh...was Mega Latios ever worth the mega slot?

Also in no universe is Mega Diancie a B+/A- mon lmao. Its checks are common but exploitable by the likes of Tapu Koko / Alowak which are good partners for it. Celesteela isn't even a great switch in since Diamond Storm and Nature Power (Thunderbolt) dent it hard, and a good opponent will just double switch into their Celesteela check. Skarmory is similar but doesn't do anything back to Mega Diancie without Iron Head, which is a suboptimal choice. Chansey and AV Magearna are what you could consider the best answers, but the former loses to Endeavor and the latter has no recovery.
With any form of hazard support Mega Diancie's checks become incredibly shaky, and since most teams rely on a single Pokemon to switch into it repeatedly you are almost forced to play very predictably. It can be revenge killed by faster Pokemon but by that time Mega Diancie has already claimed a kill and can switch unless you have a Dugtrio, which can't guarantee an OHKO if Mega Diancie already has a Defense boost. You also conveniently leave out the many threats that can't handle Mega Diancie, such as Mega Pinsir, though judging by the amount of thought you put into your argument I guess you just had nothing to say. I think Mega Diancie is at the very minimum an A rank mon, but even if I agreed with your opinion I would call out your poor explanation.

I think you need to lurk for a little while.
 
aerodactyl-mega ---> B-

i believe aerodactyl should rise. it is has a strong niche against offensive teams and its expansive movepool allows it to take on most of its checks and counters. also it is an amazing late game cleaner and has great synergy with many wall breakers like tapu bulu and tapu lele. honestly just a good mon that beats so much right now. really a shame to see this in C+ because it really doesn't have too many counters in the meta. even threats like pex and celesteela are 2hko'd.

252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 204-242 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

its best set currently is 4 attacks with fire fang, ice fang, wing attack, and stone edge, but pretty much all of its moves except stone edge can be switched out with what your team needs. earthquake has great coverage with stone edge and hits a few pokemon harder, notably toxapex. pursuit is also useful taking out specific threats for your team, like latios and duggy.

the meta is just really favorable to aerodactyl right now, especially with the rise of zard-y + duggy. really should rise at this point.

also i agree diancie-mega going to A (possibly even higher), however i don't really know enough about the mon to make a full arguement.
 
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aerodactyl-mega ---> B-

i believe aerodactyl should rise. it is has a strong niche against offensive teams and its expansive movepool allows it to take on most of its checks and counters. also it is an amazing late game cleaner and has great synergy with many wall breakers like tapu bulu and tapu lele. honestly just a good mon that beats so much right now. really a shame to see this in C+ because it really doesn't have too many counters in the meta. even threats like pex and celesteela are 2hko'd.

252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 204-242 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

its best set currently is 4 attacks with fire fang, ice fang, wing attack, and stone edge, but pretty much all of its moves except stone edge can be switched out with what your team needs. earthquake has great coverage with stone edge and hits a few pokemon harder, notably toxapex. pursuit is also useful taking out specific threats for your team, like latios and duggy.

the meta is just really favorable to aerodactyl right now, especially with the rise of zard-y + duggy. really should rise at this point.

also i agree diancie-mega going to A (possibly even higher), however i don't really know enough about the mon to make a full arguement.
I quite like Aero, actually quite a decent offensive check to Zard and isn't trapped by Dugtrio. It has decent utility too and can be a good defogger in a pinch, and can set rocks. It does, however, struggle to break through everything it needs to. It needs Edge to beat Zard, EQ for Pex, FF for Celesteela, Ice Fang for Landorus, Wing Attack for Venusaur/general STAB, Crunch for Mew, Defog/SR for Utility... It's still a good mon and can use whatever your team needs, but it should be mentioned.

That said, B- is not a stretch - it's a good Mega atm. Mega Latias might make it a bit redundant, given it beats Zard-Y teams too, but Aero adds a bit more utility with SR and the ability to revenge Greninja and Koko with the right sets.

I support Mega Aero to B-.
 
So I played around with M-diancie a bit and I'm not sure whether it's still as good as last gen.
I used it a lot in late ORAS en tried pairing it with stuff it had good synergy with back then like Volc and (Defog) Latios, but SUMO is a wildly different meta for it.

It's still a great mon with incredible power and a nice bulky pre-mega, and the speed buff is pretty huge for it since it doesn't necessarily need Protect anymore now, allowing it to run both Earth Power and HP Fire, or stuff like Stealth Rock, Endeavor or Nature Power which is pretty cool with the Tapus running around. SUMO is both bulkier and faster though, and it really dislikes stuff like Koko, Gren or Venu being so common. Once mega'd there's not much it can switch in on except status moves which usually is really predictable and most teams pack both defensive and offensive mons that pressure it. I think its biggest hindrance is that it still can't mega safely against most opponents without Protect, and if you don't lead with it (and who leads Diancie vs Koko, Gren or Lando, probably the 3 most common leads?) it becomes somewhat hard to mega it later on in the game. That + the faster meta are what hold it back most IMO.

That being said, there are still a lot of positives to it. I think it's the only offensive mon besides SD Lando to get Rocks vs. Stall. Actually, it pretty much dismantles stall: OHKO's SAB and can set rocks, 2HKO's Pex (Epower) and Clef, Defeats Skarm if running Nature Power ELT or HP Fire, beats Zapdos, only Chansey is a 3HKO and Dug obviously traps it but not reliably after a Defense boost or with Grassy Terrain support.
Furthermore it still has those insane offensive stats, usefull movepool, great ability and decent speed (sigh, when did 110 become just a "decent" speed tier...) so with the right support and once it's on the field, it can start going to town and punch holes for its teammates.

Things it works pretty well with:
- Volcarona > MBounce + Flying resist
- Latios > type synergy
- Bulu > helps with Keldeo, Chomp, A-gren, Koko, Lando, ... (except Fly-Z, but then again, what even checks this thing...) and with Stall
- Ferro / Celesteela
- Koko > decent pivot into Diancie + that sweet sweet Nature Power Tbolt
- Gastrodon > this thing is actually pretty amazing with it. Checking all of rain, Koko, Gren, Magearna and a bunch of other stuff that otherwise troubles it
- ...
Probably more but it's only been around for like a week so it needs some exploring.


I don't know, I might need to test it some more. Going by its stats, movepool and usefull pre-mega bulk + ability it definitely deserves a ranking somewhere in the A's, but I think A+ is overselling it right now.
 
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C- => Unranked
SUPER DUPER DISAGREE

"Hey, rain has been pretty good lately, you know what would make sense? Unrank 2 of its options!"

There are few goods reasons to use either Kabutops or Omastar. And yes, I am completely aware that they are not as good, nor as consistent as Kingdra and Mega Swampert, but that's why both of them are ranked B+ while the fossils are C-, because the latter two have an unique niche that can't be replaced by either of the former.

(I want to point out that I will mostly discusse Kabutops as a Mega Swampert replacement, and Omastar as a Kingdra replacement. That doesn't mean you can't run something like Swampert+Kabutops, but you get the point)

One of the first things that come to mind when talking about the advantages of using Kabutops and Omastar over Swampert and Kingdra is their ability to set up, with Swords Dance and Shell Smash respectively. This improves Rain's matchup against Stall (Rain's worst matchup imo) quite a bit. What do Swampert and Kingdra have? Power Up Punch and Dragon Dance (Don't use Dragon Dance Kingdra in rain ever).
The ability to set up brings them another advantage, mostly for Omastar this time: Being better outside of Rain. Zard Y, Ttar (& mega) and, more recently, Alolan Ninetales have become really common. Despite these 4 not exactly auto winning to Rain (and Tyranitar not wanting to switch into a water type to begin with), they do take out the rain, which cripples Swampert and Kingdra Speed and Damage output. Meanwhile, after a Shell Smash, Omastar is threatening even when the rain goes away, being still decently fast and strong thanks to the +2 +2 in its offensive stats. Kabutops is a similar case, but in this case, it can only boost attack

And this brings me to Alolan Ninetales (and probably the most important point, since the 2 paragraphs above have not changed much since 6th Gen, but I still felt they had to be brougth up), which not only is extremely threatening to Rain teams in general, forcing out Pelipper, Mega Swampert and Kingdra, (1/2 of your average Rain team) eliminating their speed boost & power, and beating them 1v1 most of the time*; but also, Alolan Ninetales just happens to be a mandatory Pokémon in the most common and powerful HO archetype rigth now.

An here is where Kabutops and Omastar come into play: Neither of the two get forced out inmediatly by Ninetales (Kabutops only is OHKOed 6% of the time and OHKOes back unless SE misses, and Omastar not only doesn't get OHKOed before a Shell Smash, but after a Shell Smash, it outspeeds and OHKOes A-Ninetales anyways), which helps in the matchup inmensely.

You may be asking: "But what about Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor?"
Well, Ferrothorn can't switch into an HP Fire/Blizzard forever, and lacks of Recovery outside from Leech Seeds and Lefties. And, sure, not all A-Ninetales run HP Fire/Blizzard, which is a point for Ferro, but lets not forget that some of Ninetales' friends tend to use Ferrothorn as a set up fodder (Like Suicune for example, which can Stall out Ferro's moves behind veil, and be a pain in the ass for Rain teams after a few CM, or Volcarona, which can just QD against Ferro and threaten a big part of your team).
Mega Scizor sounds like a nice idea, it can anti lead A-Ninetales and threaten it with BP, Roost is a reliable recovery, Defog is fantastic supporting Pokémon like Tornadus-T and the very under appreciated Hurricane Volcarona, and U-Turn lets you keep momentum... oh wait! You can't run Mega Scizor and Mega Swampert at the same time... hmmm... if only there was a Physical strong Swift Swimmer that doesn't need to mega evolve... hmmm...

Another thing that Kabutops has over Swampert is access to Priority (Aqua Jet), and Rapid Spin, which again, is really useful if you want to use Volcarona or Tornadus-T in your Rain team (Personally, I don't think Rapid Spin is very optimal, since it means you have to get rid of Aqua Jet or Swords Dance, and if you are running Kabutops over Swampert, then you can run Defog Mega Scizor. You should only use RS Kabutops if you REALLY want to use Offensive Mega Scizor and Volcarona at the same time)

I may have missed something, or forgot to include something since the text is pretty large and I'm kind of dumb, but you get the idea: The Fossils don't get outclassed in everything by Swampert and Kingdra, and there are several situations where they can outperform these two

TL;DR : Kabutops and Omastar should stay C- forever, unless:
1.- Rain just stops being a viable playstyle completely
2.- Some drastic metagame trend occurs that makes either Omastar and Kabutops good enough to be raised to a higher rank
3.- Swampert gets access to SD, Kingdra to Shell Smash and A-Ninetales gets deleted from the data of the game

I seriously don't get the logic of "A Pokémon X that is 5+ ranks above Y can use its teamslot more consistently, thus, Y is completely unviable, despite having an usable niche over X". If that was a valid argument, a big chunk of C and B rank should be unranked

*(The only case where this doesn't apply is with Mega Swampert since both OHKO each other about 30% of the time, but Ninetales has the advantage since it is naturally faster and gets to flip the coin first.
Edit: I made a quick calc, and, without taking crits in consideration, the chances of Swampert beating A-Ninetales 1v1 under Hail are about 17% if Swampert is not running Stone Edge, and 48% if running Stone Edge)
 
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There is no reason to use kabutops over mega Swampert on a rain team. It's slower, not as bulky, weaker, and has worse stab coverage.

Omastar can stay ranked cause it has a super tiny niche over kingdra but even that's laughable

Removing this two from the VR does not impact rain in anyway. Offensive rain is a very linear playstyle and lacks variable options to mess around with. This does not mean it's a bad playstyle.
 

earl

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There is no reason to use kabutops over mega Swampert on a rain team. It's slower, not as bulky, weaker, and has worse stab coverage.

Omastar can stay ranked cause it has a super tiny niche over kingdra but even that's laughable

Removing this two from the VR does not impact rain in anyway. Offensive rain is a very linear playstyle and lacks variable options to mess around with. This does not mean it's a bad playstyle.
Swampert-Mega: 70 base speed
Kabutops: 80 base speed

Anyhow, kabutops always has a Z-move and SD to break through bulkier rain checks like ferrothorn.
 
My fault, i always thought kabutops and omastar shared speed stats. anywho, that z move is used better else where and Swampert doesnt need set up to beat the same mons that Kabutops generally can. Thanks to its much superior typing and bulk, it can see battle much more often than kabutops.
 
Still working on my thoughts regarding Mega Diancie and I'll definitely post about it once we have a good idea of where it is. I definitely think it's the best Mega in the tier by a comfortable enough margin since it has an array of new options, received an assortment of buffs, and partners well with numerous top-tier threats in this metagame, but whether or not it's A+ (I'd hardly say S currently; if Dugtrio takes its leave from this metagame that might be a different story) or just one of the best things in A remains to be seen. Sharpen, 4 Attacks, Calm Mind, and Rock Polish are all better now that Protect isn't mandatory and options like Nature Power and even the occasional Endeavor have made their appearances lately. It's definitely shaping up to be a top-tier threat due to its variety of sets and its ability to perform unique roles by virtue of its offensive spread, excellent speed tier, and numerous viable sets, ultimately preventing it from being compared to anything else in this tier. It's unique and it's good.

Speaking of cool and unique Megas that were introduced recently, we also have Mega Latios. Mega Latios is the picture-perfect example of what a viable OU Mega should be, for an OU Mega is splashable, performs multiple roles or a single role incredibly well, and provides tools that the base form cannot utilize normally. And even discounting the thing's Mega status for a second it shares the role of a Dragon Dancer with a handful of things in the OU tier and manages to differentiate itself from them all quite nicely to boot! Zygarde is the most versatile Dragon Dancer as it has numerous alternative movesets and boasts immaculate neutral coverage by virtue of Thousand Arrows. Mega Tyranitar is the bulkiest Dragon Dancer, has a very respectable offensive typing with good neutral coverage and has an impressive movepool and works incredibly well on Aurora Veil offense. Mega Charizard X is the hardest-hitting Dragon Dancer by virtue of its immensely powerful STAB options, high base 130 Attack stat, and incredibly good Tough Claws ability, allowing it to hit hard although it suffers from immense 4MSS compared to the others. Mega Altaria (overrated AF, by the way) has the best defensive typing out of all the Dragon Dancers, although it lacks a lot of the power and coverage it needs and didn't take overly kindly to the -ate ability nerfs.

Mega Latios is more specialized than all of these put together, though. Mega Latios has the incredible niche of being the best Dragon/Psychic Dragon Dancer with access to Waterfall as a coverage option, Levitate as an ability, and an incredibly versatile base form as long as it equips literally anything but the Latiosite in the entire Overused tier. This is worthy of endless praise, for Mega Latios is truly something to behold. Skarmory shudders in fear as Mega Latios fails to consistently 2HKO it after four Dragon Dances. Ferrothorn trembles in terror as Latios sets up Dragon Dances for six turns after it used Leech Seed, stacked its hazards, went out, got a burger and some fries, went to the gym, probably paralyzed something, and even used an attack and proceeds to avoid even being 2HKOed thereafter unless it runs Earthquake. Landorus-Therian cries in agony as it takes a whole 70% from a +0 Waterfall only for it to erase the Mega slot your opponent could've used on something meaningful with a single Supersonic Skystrike.

The best part is that it looks very, very similar to Mega Latias! It can attempt to replicate Mega Latias's roles to resounding success at failing miserably, for Mega Latios lacks the diverse support movepool and bulk his sister brings to the table. Literally all the immediate power Mega Latios brings to the table when performing this role is invalidated because Mega Latias sets up far more easily or runs Reflect Type far more viably.

And the best part? If it wants to hit hard without any setup, differentiating itself from both the Dragon Dancers and Mega Latias, he can still fail miserably because his non-Mega counterpart exists. Defog? Forget it; you can't run that and still hit hard as well. Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and Trick? You forfeit those rights as soon as you clicked that item slot and typed in "Latiosite." Roost? Good luck getting walled by a good portion of the tier because you lost one of your coverage options running it.

Mega Latios is truly something to behold. No Mega that's actually in the OU tier can manage to exemplify what it means to be a good Mega by being the polar opposite of a good Mega quite like Mega Latios. I feel like people are really sleeping on it. And considering it's currently unranked and very few if any people have talked about it in a positive light thus far, I feel like they should continue to sleep on it. Please don't rank this garbage.
 
I get that it's a meme but nobody in their right mind was gonna rank it anyways.

It's a cash as hell offensive check to Zard Y + Tar run some attack investment mixed and you're good to go with Draco + EQ. That's about it.
 
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