Singles Break that Core (Week 17: Hippowdon + Lucario + Dragonite) ~ VOTING (post #395)

Psynergy is a meanie and sniped my idea so I'm voting for him. Once Blaziken collects a few Speed Boosts, it becomes a huge threat that this core has to adress immediately.
 
Voting for Psynergy. Blaziken just puts a complete stop to all three even at -1. Tyranitar 4x weak to Fighting, Mega Mence 4x weak to Ice, and Excadrill, just not that bulky enough to take a Superpower. Mixed Blaziken nice.
 

ethan06

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6tennis. Never liked Blaziken and Greninja just fails to do anything against Excadrill in sand, which it almost always will be if this core is played well. Also I probably would've gone with Suicune had I not done Lando instead (ass set) so yeah :]
 

Psynergy

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While I don't think it'll change things too much I'll throw a vote in for 6tennis, Suicune was actually another other option I was thinking of as an answer to this core and it's still a pretty solid check to any of these Pokemon. It might take big damage that could stop it from taking down the entire core alone but that's expected when using something bulky to beat an entire core that includes a Mega Salamence. It still puts a ton of pressure on them regardless because Suicune is a god like that.
 
Psynergy's Mixed Blaziken. Even though is a very standard set it is very effective and can single handedly stop the core.
 

DragonWhale

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Psynergy wins with his Blaziken nomination! Speed Boost is amazing as usual.

We're gonna continue on with the three-mon cores since it adds a degree of difficulty and it's a lot more interesting to break (also I couldn't find any two-pokemon cores that didn't have an obvious answer lol). This week we're going to look at one of the most well-known trios out there in Battle Spot Singles: Hippowdon + Lucario + Dragonite! It's a core that grew in popularity due to its success, with Hippowdon creating opportunities for the other two to sweep.



How will you break this core? Remember you can put multiple Pokemon in one nomination!
 
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I dont think there is any one pokemon that can beat this core so I'm nominating two pokemon which I've had some success with on showdown in the past few days and these will probably be part of my in-game team next season.

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD
Modest Nature
- Water Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere

Cresselia @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Lunar Dance
- Trick Room
- Moonlight

The idea behind this is to lead with blastoise since hippo is almost always the lead. The opponent wouldn't want to switch to lucario or dragonite since the former wouldn't like taking a water pulse and the latter woudn't want to break multiscale. The best option for the opponent would be to sack off hippo. Next, if your opponent brings out lucario, blastoise can take any attack lucario throws at it and OHKO it with an aura sphere. If your opponent chooses to bring out dragonite, you simply switch to cress since it easily tanks an outrage and breaks multiscale due to rocky helmet. Then set up trick room and go for a lunar dance and bring blastoise back out. Blastoise will finish it off with an ice beam.

Calcs

Offensive
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 228-270 (106 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 206-244 (142 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 232-276 (139.7 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (multiscale not active)

Defensive
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Mega Blastoise: 138-164 (74.5 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Mega Blastoise: 99-117 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 73-87 (32.1 - 38.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 78-94 (34.3 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
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bobochan

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Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang
- Substitute
- Earthquake

At first I was going to nominate HP Fire Greninja, but after doing some calcs it turns out to be much too frail against some of these priority beasts.
(Vacuum Wave OHKO after LO, Extreme Speed twice = KO)
Due to this, I went with a bulkier choice and hopefully this pick is better overall.
Of course as with every nomination, it can't win 100% of the time (if the opponent predicts your set/etc) but it'll work most of the time.

Jolly nature with max speed allows you to outrun the 7% Dragonites that prefer Jolly over Adamant.
220 EVs in Attack "almost" guarantees a 2HKO on the sturdiest of Hippowdon with Ice Fang at +2, rest in bulk.
Ice Fang guarantees OHKO on Dragonite due to Mold Breaker, while Earthquake is 87.5% OHKO on standard Mega Lucario.
Substitute allows you to comfortably get up at least 2 DD's on Hippowdon's Yawn (after Intimidate), while making you harder to get revenged by Vacuum Wave or Extreme Speed.

If Gyarados fails to take down all three mons, have something like Lum Berry Dragonite or Specs Sylveon to finish the job.

Some Calcs
+2 220 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 108-128 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 142-168 (97.9 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
220 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 176-208 (105.3 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Serperior @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 116 HP / 220 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Rock

This set's a little...weird. But it actually can take on this core very reliably. It's more of a defensive counter than an offensive one, but nonetheless, it still puts a lot of pressure on this core. I feel like this is the best 1-Pokemon answer to this core. I have an idea of a 2-Pokemon answer to this core, but I don't like using 2-Pokemon answers.

The idea is to use Leaf Storm if Hippowdown is leading, or set up Reflect if Lucario or Dragonite is leading. You get your special attack boosts, all the while taking little damage from any of these mons, and go to town. Serperior has no trouble taking down Hippowdon, and Lucario is also very easily walled by it. Dragonite causes a bit of a problem, as it 4x resists Leaf Storm, so I threw in HP Rock.

Offensive Calcs
Note that all of these calcs are somewhat skewed, due to me not factoring in the boosts gained from Leaf Storm, as well as Sandstorm damage. So, take them with a grain of salt.
0 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 288-342 (68.5 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 73-87 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 68-82 (21 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Defensive Calcs
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 25-30 (7.8 - 9.3%) -- possible 7HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 119-141 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 93-109 (29 - 34%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 138-163 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
While this calc in particular looks less than favorable, it's still a non-issue. Due to Rocky Helmet and Sandstorm damage, you can take out a Dragonite as long as it doesn't get all of its setup.
 

Demantoid

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Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 12 HP / 12 Atk / 4 Def / 228 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Low Kick
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot​

Shadow Sneak allows Greninja to dodge a Vacuum Wave from M Lucario and follow up with a KO using Low Kick. The EVs allow Greninja to survive CB Extreme Speed from Dragonite + One turn of sand + One LO recoil 100% of the time, and let Greninja OHKO a 4 HP Dragonite 100% of the time. Grass Knot is chosen in the last slot for this specific core since it deals the most damage to Hippo but could be replaced with something else. If Lucario is a physical variant with Bullet Punch it will 2HKO Greninja after LO recoil but most Lucario I've seen in this core are special. An ESpeed from both Lucario and Dragonite will also kill so something that can handle those two is appreciated in the back.

Calcs
228 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 198-237 (92 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
228 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 172-203 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
12 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 32-40 (21.9 - 27.3%) -- 52.9% chance to 4HKO
12 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 133-156 (91 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 12 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 105-124 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Psynergy

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The options of CB/DD Dragonite, physical/special Lucario and Extreme Speed vs Bullet Punch makes this core much more annoying to cover with one Pokemon than last week's relatively concrete setup. Hippowdon also typically underspeeds Aegislash so the otherwise solid WP Aegislash isn't quite the singular solid answer it would be otherwise. That being said:



Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
- Flash Cannon

Aegislash is a relatively solid check to both of the powerhouses of this core, resisting or being immune to all of Lucario's moves other than Dark Pulse on the special set (which still unlikely to OHKO at +2 and with SR), and Earthquake on Dragonite, giving it moves to abuse with Weakness Policy. Notably it's immune to both of their priority options while resisting Bullet Punch, which lets it handle them even if they set up and also makes CB Dragonite less safe to play with. However, as mentioned Hippowdon is still a problem so this core can still beat Aegislash through that, meaning Aegislash alone won't cut it.


Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Grass Knot

So Thundurus complements Aegislash nicely against this core, especially in the form of a Flying typing to deter Earthquake spam. LO Grass Knot actually OHKOs Hippowdon before it can do anything assuming physically defensive, so no Yawn shenanigans here either. Lucario and Dragonite are more likely to come out on top against Thundurus but Thunder Wave can effectively cripple both while HP Ice can chunk Dragonite, and CB Extreme Speed is both risky and can't OHKO Thundurus anyway. Mega Lucario does outspeed Thundurus but only after Mega Evolving which might not matter anyway since Thunderbolt has a chance to OHKO on the turn it Mega Evolves. Regardless this damage easily puts them in range of being taken out by Aegislash afterwards, which doesn't fear too much from the rest of the core unless special Lucario decides to flinch Aegislash to death.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 224-265 (104.1 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 88-104 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 130-153 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 84-100 (50.6 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 33-40 (19.8 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-162 (81.4 - 97%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This duo isn't a perfect answer since you still need to play a little carefully depending on the specific sets and a few damage rolls can throw things off but it definitely messes with this core, especially Aegislash's ability to mess with both Dragonite and Mega Lucario. Of course there's also the third slot which can hopefully clean up the job but yeah, those three together are tough to break. :(
 
image.png

Skarmory Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP/ 132 Atk/ 124 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Toxic

Take the EVs with a grain of salt. I made a Skarmory set for a team a while ago but didn't save it anywhere. I think this is it, and after a few calcs it seems alright. Max Def still gets 2HKOd by unboosted Lucario's CC without boosts, and the Atk OHKOs Mega Blaziken(not part of this core, but an important target nonetheless. What I don't get is why the Atk is so much-a little less would still guarantee an OHKO on Blazi.)

Toxic takes out Hippo, which can't really do anything but Yawn with the moves it normally uses, and Skarmory can definitely wait out the sleep turns after an ID if this core is the oppo' whole team. It's also the best option vs DNite, though only after you've used ID in case it's Fire Punch(Fire Blast is extremely rare, and Skarms will definitely live it from full cause Sturdy. Plus there's at 15% chance for it to miss.)

Stalling out Lucario's and DNite with ID while they break themselves on your helmet is usually fine. DNite is only boosting Atk one stage with DD to your two stage ID boost, though SD Lucario's is kind of a problem. It's also worth noting that more Lucario's tend to go physical, which is important since special variants are much more dangerous.

Here are some calcs.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Skarmory: 92-110 (53.4 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

132 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 75-88 (51.7 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pretty crazy how much it takes from BB. If you already have +2 Def you can just ID on Lucario. If it uses Close Combat it'll take helmet damage and lower its Def. After a BB from Skarm on a -1 Def Luc it only really needs another round of helmet damage to die, and in the meantime Skarm can Roost or use ID again. The damage Luc does to unboosted Skarms is pretty high so you'd want another answer to it on your team, but even in the worst of times Skarm can just take the CC, then BB on the -1 Luc, and then Luc finishes you next turn, but that's after taking so much damage its dead or close, and anything with Extremespeed could then come in and revenge the weakened Luc.

4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Skarmory: 80-96 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO

Not that bad at all, and it only applies if you're Roosting, Gravity is in effect...or you've been Trucked an Iron Ball. Even in those weird situations it doesn't matter since you just boost your Def then Roost. There aren't any other offensive calcs that are at all relevant. The bottom line is Skarms uses Toxic on Hippo but is immune to poison itself.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Skarmory: 180-216 (104.6 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Skarmory: 72-85 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Skarmory: 72-84 (41.8 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Short version is that Fire Punch is the only way DNite does anything, aside from the extremely rare Fire Blast or even rarer Thunderpunch and Thunderbolt, and only if Skarms isn't boosted. Skarms won't do much damage with BB(guaranteed 4HKO,) but has Toxic and makes DNite take helmet damage.
 
Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Iron Defense
- Slack Off

It can ID vs dnite, tanks basically everything i think. Every move in Lucario's top 10 is not very effective vs bro except Espeed and yeah you got ID for that. Hippo is weak to water so yeah. Solid mon vs these guys i think.
 
Serperior @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 116 HP / 220 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Rock

This set's a little...weird. But it actually can take on this core very reliably. It's more of a defensive counter than an offensive one, but nonetheless, it still puts a lot of pressure on this core. I feel like this is the best 1-Pokemon answer to this core. I have an idea of a 2-Pokemon answer to this core, but I don't like using 2-Pokemon answers.

The idea is to use Leaf Storm if Hippowdown is leading, or set up Reflect if Lucario or Dragonite is leading. You get your special attack boosts, all the while taking little damage from any of these mons, and go to town. Serperior has no trouble taking down Hippowdon, and Lucario is also very easily walled by it. Dragonite causes a bit of a problem, as it 4x resists Leaf Storm, so I threw in HP Rock.

Offensive Calcs
Note that all of these calcs are somewhat skewed, due to me not factoring in the boosts gained from Leaf Storm, as well as Sandstorm damage. So, take them with a grain of salt.
0 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 288-342 (68.5 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 73-87 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 68-82 (21 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Defensive Calcs
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 25-30 (7.8 - 9.3%) -- possible 7HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 119-141 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 93-109 (29 - 34%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 116 HP / 220 Def Serperior through Reflect: 138-163 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
While this calc in particular looks less than favorable, it's still a non-issue. Due to Rocky Helmet and Sandstorm damage, you can take out a Dragonite as long as it doesn't get all of its setup.
I'm curious why you didn't opt for HP Ice?
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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Voting time! Make sure to put your votes in bold.

aniravjain : Mega Blastoise + Rocky Helmet Cresselia
bobochan : DD Mega Gyarados
6tennis : Rocky Helmet Serperior w/ HP Rock
Demantoid : LO Greninja w/ Grass Knot + Shadow Sneak
Psynergy : WP Aegislash + LO Thundurus w/ Grass Knot
Omastar68 : Rocky Helmet Skarmory w/ Iron Defense + Toxic
NOVED : Iron Defense Mega Slowbro

I need some time to think about the noms so I'll vote later. Going to put the thread up for voting first.
 

bobochan

slow mo my bobo
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Chucking a vote for Demantoid's Greninja this week, partially because my original nomination also being a Greninja.
Worst case scenario, no matter what the lead in the core is, Greninja will be taking one down, and that's pretty damn nice.
 
Voting for Demantoid as well. That spread is pretty well thought out and the fact that greninja ohkos dragonite with multiscale active is huge.
 

cant say

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Voting for Demantoid's Greninja as well. What's cool is if they lead with Hippowdon (very likely) and you fail to OHKO because it's the rare SpD version of it, you can follow up with a Shadow Sneak to finish it off which means you can't be picked off by an Extreme Speed / Vacuum Wave on the next turn. It does get a bit awkward if Lucario comes in next though as Flash Cannon / Iron Tail can OHKO and Low Kick might not, so you might lose Greninja there, but usually, Gren 3-0's this core...

edit: Grass Knot is a really underrated move on Life Orb Greninja. I've switched my Suicune into them before thinking I can Calm Mind in their face but then I just get KOed by Grass Knot!
 
Psynergy
Thundurus is great vs this core and unlike Grenny, can still function to cripple/stop a sweep after they set up due to twave. Also, Aegislash is always cool I'd suggest subtoxic with hp ice vs this core though
 
Psynergy
I also wanted to nom Aegislash with something else but never got around to do it. Aegislash is a cool guy being immune to extreme speed and fighting and can do alot of work against this core. Not entirely sure if Thunder Wave support syncs well with him though since I'm assuming paralyzed enemies will hit him in blade form. I feel this nom can most reliably beat the core.
 

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