Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

After thinking more about this and as time went on, I realized that I was more and more on the fence about the Cacturne -> A+ nomination. I wanted to get some more perspective on how we should handle this, so I wanted to write up Cacturne's pros and cons and see how it would fare in other tier's definitions of S-Rank. Feel free to dispute anything on the list or later in the post.

Cacturne: Pros and Cons


Pros

  • Multiple viable sets including specially biased Aoa, physically biased AoA, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot
  • Lots of options and coverage including Spikes, Focus Blast/Superpower/Drain Punch, Destiny Bond, Poison Jab (these are not all as viable as each other, but the unpredictability factor is there)
  • Extremely powerful priority in Sucker Punch that does hefty damage (>50%) to nearly all offensive mons
  • Basically zero true, 100% counters with all of the different sets
  • Resists lots of priority including opposing Sucker Punches and Shadow Sneaks, and immune to Aqua Jet
  • Can come in on slow mons and get a kill basically every time

Cons
  • Frail, 4x weak to U-turn which several common defensive mons carry
  • Reliant on Sucker Punch versus faster mons and forced to predict versus fast mons with Substitute/status moves
  • Completely shut down by Monferno, a splashable S-Rank mon
  • Always walled by something no matter what the exact set
  • Meta has adjusted to handle it to some degree

Since PU has no official definition of S-Rank, I would like to take a look at other tier's definitions of S-Rank and see how well Cacturne fits.


RU Viability Rankings
"The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the RU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for and/or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."


Obviously, Cacturne would fall under the "powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for" criteria. However, I would argue that it struggles to fall under the "can easily perform multiple rolls effectively, increasing their viability and unpredictability". Cacturne has many options, but I would argue that only two main sets, AoA (physically and specially biased) and Swords Dance, are the two best sets, and the others are at least somehow suboptimal - Spikes has to choose between setting hazards and attacking, Nasty Plot has to forego Sucker Punch or coverage, most everything else is suboptimal (like Destiny Bond.) However, the vast difference in how you have to prepare for these different sets (using counters, not checks) helps convince me that Cacturne would be labeled as S-Rank using this definition.


NU Viability Rankings
"Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets."

Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup.
I would argue Cacturne does not fulfill the splashability or reliability criteria but fulfills the rest of the positive criteria. The negative criteria I would associate Cacturne with would include speed and general bulk. That totals 3/5 positive criteria and 2/6 negative criteria. So, in my opinion, that would not mark Cacturne as S-Rank by this definition, as I feel it falls just a bit short.


LC Viability Rankings
"Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."

Cacturne, in my opinion, performs two rolls extremely well, and those are Swords Dance, which breaks fat stuff and blows away unprepared offense, and AoA (both physically and specially biased), which chooses its counters and surprises people who switch a mon into the wrong move. Cacturne is relatively low-risk, high-reward, and it does make up for its flaws of being slow with insanely powerful priority. Its main drawback is opposing fast status/Substitute users, and even these can be played around by predicting. IMO, Cacturne qualifies for S-Rank by this definition. Two out of three.



I know that I didn't start this idea of Cacturne dropping to A+, I merely voiced the community, but I was initially convinced that Cacturne should drop. After debating on PS! with a lot of regulars and mods, seeing how Cacturne compares to other tier's definitions of S-Rank, and reading good arguments in this thread, I've changed my mind. IMO, Leave Cacturne in S-Rank.
 
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pancake

movement and location
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Firstly I just want to point out that there is no need to include an agreement with little reasoning, as when deciding changes, we care about people's reasoning and what they add to the suggestion, rather than their opinions, meaning something like this is effectively pointless. I don't mean to single you out, as it is a common problem in this thread, it's just that I was going to respond to your post anyway.



I feel like you are severely undervaluing the effectiveness of Pawniard right now. Currently, Monferno is pretty much the only common stop to Pawniard as Probopass has to be decently healthy to take a +2 Iron Head, which is hard to be at given how easier Probopass is warn down by Volt Switches/etc. Additionally, checks like Stunfisk/Quilladin have severely gone down in usage and Golem and Mawile are the most common Stealth Rock users, and the best defensive Pokemon right now are like Clefairy and Vullaby. Pawniard's general matchup is shown quite well by the viability rankings, given that Pawniard has a positive matchup vs most of S/A+/A, and though more in a-/b+ beat it, Pawn still has a solid matchup vs the majority. It may seem that I downplay the Monferno part, however if it takes a Knock Off from Pawniard, its defensive capabilities become a lot worse, and pairing Pawn with strong Ice/Fire types like CB Rapidash can put a lot of strain on it. Monferno does not completely cockblock Pawn, though it does make sweeping a lot harder, and teams without Monferno have to play almost perfectly around Pawn.

The main reason I believe Pawniard is one of the best A rank Pokemon is how its Swords Dance set can destroy offensive teams. Aside from Monferno, which is the main reason stopping Pawn from going higher, offensive teams are forced to play around with Sucker Punch when Pawniard has set up late game. This pretty much means they are relying on things like WilloWisp Rapidash and Rotom-f which cannot risk switching in, or random Substitute mons which have become severely less common. Pawniards good bulk means it finds little difficulty in setting up on Pokemon like Metang or locked Stoutland, and both Knock Off and Sucker Punch provide so much utility for any team. Honestly I would say SD Pawniard is better than SD Mawile due to its stronger priority making it a better sweeper, though Mawile is a better wallbreaker due to its stronger STABs and is being considered for a rise due to the combination of its offensive and defensive sets.

I could see Pawn dropping a bit in A, but that wouldn't be far and more to do with Pokemon below, like Clefairy, being very good.
I get the whole first point; I was trying to just show that I was someone supporting the nomination but I didn't really have anything to add. Perhaps I should have just not posted.

Now with Pawniard, looking back at it, it definitely has a better matchup against the metagame than it seemed to at first and so I do agree with you, but I still think it's a little worse than Mawile even after reading your post. I'm not council but I'd suggest the spot just above Roselia or Regice, but no lower than that. Perhaps this is me being biased because I really don't think Roselia is good, but Pawniard is more splashable than either of those and is better against offense, especially when compared to Roselia.

Thanks :3
 


Wow. This guy just can't drop. You guys are really understimating its power and effectiveness, acting like some mons can actually shut it down (and rarely ever they actually can). Just to start with, Monferno on a team doesn't 'cold stops' it or makes it 'dead-weight'. Let's not forget 99% of Monfs nowadays are offensive so they struggle to tank Focus Blast (from Special variant) or Frustration/Drain Punch/Superpower (from Physical variant) more than once. Vullaby also falls under this category: unless SpDef (while it has its perks, it's a kinda mediocre set), it struggles to tank Focus Blast aswell. Spikes is also a very useful but underrated move on Cacturne: you can lay your hazards as your opponent switches to check you (assuming it has some kind of Cacturne check/counter). This also puts massive pressure on Lumineon and Vullaby because now they have to choose either to pivot around and grab momentum or give some Cacturne teammate a free switch while it tries to defog. It may be reliant on Sucker Punch versus offense but it is still a very good mon. It can switch in on locked Water types, rockers that can't do much to it such as non-Signal Beam Prinplup and Stunfisk, etc. Overall this guy is very solid and threatening and deserves its place. Keep it S.



Must admit I don't understand why a drop has been brought up. Its eviolite-boosted 60/100/80 defenses plus great typing let it check a big portion of the tier, including threatening types such as Normal, Psychic and Ice. It is a nice blanket check for things such as Mawile, Stoutland, Regice, Grumpig, and etc. If you think it's getting worn down too fast, RestTalk is a very good set on it so it can act as a status absorver (aswell as a better Roselia/Jumpluff/Offensive Tangela check) while checking everything else it should. It's not dead-weight either: OK 75 Attack coupled with nice steel STAB, STAB Priority and Earthquake for coverage. Stealth Rock and Toxic can be ran for utility, aswell as Pursuit to act as a totally effective check to Psychic-types instead of just scaring them away. It's a great mon. Keep it A.



Lumineon is such a great mon right now. Its ability in Storm Drain grants it an imunity to Water-type attacks meaning it can act as a competent check to this type. It's ability to pivot via U-turn is great, and this pivoting is a mix of slow and fast: Slow enough to move after faster threats such as Monferno but faster enough to outrun threats such as Cacturne and Golem. The drawbacks of this mon are the lack of recovery (which isn't too much of a problem with Leftovers), its passive nature (mainly if it runs Impish to better check Cacturne, but Bold is very passive aswell; its ability to spread status do make up for this though) and its bulk because, while very consistent and useful, doesn't allow it to take on strong wallbreakers such as Stoutland and etc. However, Lumi is very competent at its job and gets it done very nicely, provides cool role compression and takes on top-tier threats. Rise to A-.



I must admit that, at first, I was REALLY on the fence about this guy but I've finally reached a conclusion. Megazard made a very good argument by comparing it with the old premier Stealth Rocker in Piloswine. Just like Golem, the furry thing just provided awesome role compression by acting as an Ice check, Electric check, (offensive) Grass check and etc, but it's never got S rank. It wasn't centralizing although arguably the best, nor meta defining. Neither is Golem. While of course a threatening mon, Golem is kinda easy to overwhelm due its lack of recovery (and also it should act as a Knock Off sponge). While it has plenty of spreads, its sets are almost always the same, which makes it easy to predict its coverage and deal with it. In a nutshell, Golem is a good mon, but its not meta defining or centralizing enough to rise. Keep it A+.



The great bird. This thing has always been threatening but I think lately it's fallen out of flavor. We all know Chatot holds its A rank position because of its infamous Scarf set; Choice Specs, Encore Silk Scarf, SubNP are all very cool sets to play around but aren't as effective as Scarf is, at least in this meta. Boomburst is a very powerful STAB that generally plows through Offense very nicely, but Chatot lacks power outside of that. Heat Wave isn't strong enough to help it breaking resists, same goes for HP Ground (which at least hits Probopass for good damage, although its only because of its huge Ground weakness). Things like Mr. Mime and Electrode, aswell as Metang, SpDef Golem, Muk and etc. have gotten common and they are very good right now so I guess this pushes Chatot a bit. It's very frail and has a weakness to SR, meaning it has limited time to switch in unless you bring it after a teammate is dead (I know this is exactly what revenge killing is, and ScarfTot IS a revenge killer, but its still shameful to fail to switch in on anything) or via Slow pivoting or very smart double switches and pair it with hazard removal, respectively. This guy is still very solid but I don't think it should be so high. Drop it to A-.



Lickilicky is a very odd mon right now. It recieves competition in every single role it'd like to play, barring maybe Mixed Lure (well, Tank Audino is a thing but Audino's offenses are much worse) and Offensive Wish. CB recieves competition from Stoutland as they have a very similar role in being Normal-type wallbreakers that hit the whole tier neutrally, but Stoutland's higher speed and better power (aswell as ability to go Sand Rush or Scarf to a less extent) generally are picked over Licki's utility in Knock Off and better bulk. Same goes for SD: Bouff gives harsh competition but Licky can actually touch Ghost-types while Bouff would have to run CB with Stone Edge or Taunt Toxic to actually do so. Bouff's higher speed and better power, aswell as imunities and a lot more versatility (between TauntToxic, CB, SubSD and AV, it has plenty of sets) are often picked over Licky's perks aswell. Overall Licky is very difficult to fit on teams due to the struggle to justify its use over top tier threats such as the ones mentioned before. Drop it to D.



Torkoal has never been too appealing to me to be honest. It's a defensive (passive) spinner that has a rock weakness and no recovery, aswell as no way of beating spinblockers. It's typing and bulk help it checking threats such as Leafeon and Pawniard but the fact that its a Knock Off sponge means it loses Leftovers' and becomes almost unable to check what its meant to. Its typing also grants it bad matchup versus a lot of common stealth rockers barring maybe Probopass (if Earthquake/Earth Power vs Non-balloon) and Metang, so its difficult to even do what its meant to. Overall its decent but lackluster and underwhelming. Drop it to D.



This thing is very good right now. Its SpDef set is literally the sturdiest wall in the tier, being one of the few defensive mons capable of surviving +2 Modest LO Gorebyss' Hydro Pump. Great utility with ability to lay Rocks and spread paralyzis (or Knock Off items if you have a Stealth Rocker already), nice typing coupled with good bulk, very good ability and access to reliable recovery. Although SpDef is a personal-favorite of mine, I know people are all about CM. Calm Mind Clefairy just finds a lot of set up opportunities due its decent Physical bulk when invested and the already mentioned paralyzis it spreads. However, It's got a sturdy check in Muk and steel types, that have gotten common, do shake its viability. On the fence.
 
Dragonair to D or C-.

Dragonair actually works pretty well as a set up Dragon Dance sweeper. I know this role in PU was already taken by Fraxure, but Dragonair has got some qualities that might somehow compensate it's inferior attack stat.

1. Higher special defense allows it to survive some Ice Beams that would OHKO Fraxure:
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 242-286 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 190-224 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


2. Burn and paralysis prevent Fraxure from effectively sweeping, but Dragonair can have it's status cured by Shed Skin and continue with the sweep (this happened to me many times).

3. Dragonair can learn Dragon Rush. Dragon Rush is a nice 100 BP STAB move with 20% chance to flinch (can be useful when you're 2HKOing bulkier opponents), the only drawback is the 75% accuracy (still better than Focus Blast eh). Fraxure's physical STAB movepool suitable for a Dragon Dance offensive set consists of Outrage, Dragon Claw and Dual Chop. Outrage is unreliable because the tier is full of Mawiles, Mr Mimes and Clefairies, plus the confusion side-effect can be dangerous. That means Fraxure's only reliable STAB attacks have 80 BP. Talking about attacks, Dragonair has got Extreme Speed to finish off some weakened faster pokemon or priority users.

However I must admit that Fraxure hits much much harder than Dragonair and it's higher popularity is justified.


Some calculations:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 154-183 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 219-258 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 214-252 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon: 160-189 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 223-264 (82.8 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 321-378 (103.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-456803167
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-456570311
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-456742159
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
Dragonair to D or C-.

Dragonair actually works pretty well as a set up Dragon Dance sweeper. I know this role in PU was already taken by Fraxure, but Dragonair has got some qualities that might somehow compensate it's inferior attack stat.

1. Higher special defense allows it to survive some Ice Beams that would OHKO Fraxure:
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 242-286 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 190-224 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


2. Burn and paralysis prevent Fraxure from effectively sweeping, but Dragonair can have it's status cured by Shed Skin and continue with the sweep (this happened to me many times).

3. Dragonair can learn Dragon Rush. Dragon Rush is a nice 100 BP STAB move with 20% chance to flinch (can be useful when you're 2HKOing bulkier opponents), the only drawback is the 75% accuracy (still better than Focus Blast eh). Fraxure's physical STAB movepool suitable for a Dragon Dance offensive set consists of Outrage, Dragon Claw and Dual Chop. Outrage is unreliable because the tier is full of Mawiles, Mr Mimes and Clefairies, plus the confusion side-effect can be dangerous. That means Fraxure's only reliable STAB attacks have 80 BP. Talking about attacks, Dragonair has got Extreme Speed to finish off some weakened faster pokemon or priority users.

However I must admit that Fraxure hits much much harder than Dragonair and it's higher popularity is justified.


Some calculations:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 154-183 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 219-258 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 214-252 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon: 160-189 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 223-264 (82.8 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonair Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 321-378 (103.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-456803167
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-456570311
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-456742159
Simipour is becoming less and less usable since it is almost completely outclassed by Floatzel, Golem has it's WP activated, and you failed to mention how it takes hits from these Pokemon in return or what it threatens out for these Pokemon to switch in. It should also be noted Dragon Rush and Iron Tail have 75% accuracy (that's awful) and if you miss your opponent gets a free turn and you lose momentum. In fact, your argument that Fraxure only has a base 80 move and Dragonair has a base 100 in flawed, that when you factor in accuracy, Dragonair's base power is only 75. The only think it has over Fraxure is E-Speed, but that isn't enough to move it up and wasn't what you even showcased as a reason to bring it up. Dragonair it needs to stay Unranked further more because it, like Fraxure, doesn't beat it's counters consistently. You're saying that it beats Carbink 75% of the time, Clefairy 56.25%, and Mawile hardly none. Dragonair also generally loses to Metang, Probopass, and Avalugg among other things. Failure to address what counters it and how it overcomes them shows just how much it should stay as an Unranked NFE.
 
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Anty

let's drop
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Only a few changes this time:
Golem A+ to S
Chatot A to A-
Lumineon B+ to A-

There have been several good posts on Golem (eg this) but ultimately it is moving on due to the range of sets and its splashability. There is a set for literally every playstyle, and each one of these is amazing on its own accord. WP lead is excellent at providing a lot of offensive pressure to Defoggers and can reliably get Srocks up and still deal heavy damage or can be used throughout the game. Tank set is nicer for bulkier teams and blanket checks a lot in one slot such as Muk (without risk of being trapped), Zebstrika, and Dodrio. Choice Band is also something that has been bought up recently, as it is an amazing wallbreaker due the tiers lack of Rock resist, and it still provides defensive support due to its natural bulk and typing. Overall Golem can be used on pretty much any serious team while yielding outstanding results.

Chatot hasn't been so good lately, with counters to the Scarf variant such as Soundproof Mime, tank Golem, and Probopass regaining excellent usage, and rn both Mr Mime and Rotom-f are considered more useful as a scarfer as the former provides support and the latter has two strong STABs. Lumineon rose as it is decently splashable as it is a Defog user not stacking a Stealth Rock weakness, while checking good Pokemon such as Monferno and Floatzel, while not being Cacturne bait.

Discussion list:
Cacturne S to A+
Metang A to A-
Politoed B+ to A-
Solrock B to B-
Carbink C- to D
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

B ---> B+

Altaria is such a splashable Pokemon thanks to its amazing defensive defensive typing and access to Roost. It helps with teams that need a good wallbreaker and switch in for Monferno (the only Pokemon that can really do this is Swanna but I don't count it as a wallbreaker.) On top of that its has really good coverage to go with its STAB not only luring / beating its own checks but paving a way for teammates as well (FBlast and EQ can help out Muk for example.) And overall I feel it is much more consistent and easier to put on teams then what it is ranked alongside with and I feel it fits more on the level of stuff like Camerupt and Rotom-S. Defensive sets are also amazing and used very often on defensive builds because of its resist. DD sets can be underwhelming and I consider its worst set but if it manages to get a DD with LO it can become super deadly.


B+ ---> B

Although its super strong it is very hard to justify ever using it over Floatzel who is much better just because of its speed. Lapras also outshines it in a way as well for the slot of a Water-type wallbreaker since it has access to Freeze Dry which lets it beat Water checks much more consistently. Simipour best niche right is in its Sub + NP sets which can be a bit tedious to set up since you have to remove all priority off the field which can be really tricky to accomplish against an opponent who knows what they are doing. What I'm trying to say here is that I don't it should be on the same rank as the rest of B+ who are all Pokemon that can be easily put onto a lot of teams.
 

Acast

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B ---> B+

Altaria is such a splashable Pokemon thanks to its amazing defensive defensive typing and access to Roost. It helps with teams that need a good wallbreaker and switch in for Monferno (the only Pokemon that can really do this is Swanna but I don't count it as a wallbreaker.) On top of that its has really good coverage to go with its STAB not only luring / beating its own checks but paving a way for teammates as well (FBlast and EQ can help out Muk for example.) And overall I feel it is much more consistent and easier to put on teams then what it is ranked alongside with and I feel it fits more on the level of stuff like Camerupt and Rotom-S. Defensive sets are also amazing and used very often on defensive builds because of its resist. DD sets can be underwhelming and I consider its worst set but if it manages to get a DD with LO it can become super deadly.


B+ ---> B

Although its super strong it is very hard to justify ever using it over Floatzel who is much better just because of its speed. Lapras also outshines it in a way as well for the slot of a Water-type wallbreaker since it has access to Freeze Dry which lets it beat Water checks much more consistently. Simipour best niche right is in its Sub + NP sets which can be a bit tedious to set up since you have to remove all priority off the field which can be really tricky to accomplish against an opponent who knows what they are doing. What I'm trying to say here is that I don't it should be on the same rank as the rest of B+ who are all Pokemon that can be easily put onto a lot of teams.
Altaria just dropped down from B+ less than a month ago. It's too weak to function as a truly effective offensive mon, and I would never call it a wallbreaker. Swanna isn't much of a wallbreaker either, but it's far stronger than Altaria.

Simipour actually dropped down from A- at the same time Altaria dropped, so I think staying in B+ is fine for it atm. You're correct in saying that it's outclassed by Floatzel in most aspects, but it does still have a few niches to itself. Specifically an AoA set with Superpower to handle Audino more easily and a SubNP set that can be an incredibly threatening sweeper. I don't feel all that strongly about Simipour, but I do think it fits best at the bottom of B+ where it is now.
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
zebstrika.jpg 250px-035Clefairy.png 250px-008Wartortle.png 250px-703Carbink.png

Zebstrika from A+ to Middle of A. Yes, I originally asked it to be put into the bottom of A+, but after some more research and careful consideration, it doesn't perform at the same level as say Leafeon or Muk right now. My biggest reason in asking for Zebstrika to drop is that there are a plethora of high viability specially defensive ground types that eat Zebby's HP Ices for days. These include SpeDef Golem, Stunfisk, Camerupt and Trapinch. Zebstrikas stats aren't exceptionally good like they were before either. Floatzel is less splashable, meaning we don't need Zebstrika on every offensive team like we did in the past, and a base 80 special attack isn't doing it any favors. Zebstrika is still certainly the best Electric type glue for offensive teams, but it under-performs these days and I think it warrants a drop to A.

Clefairy move to Top of A. Moving up 1 spot above Mawile doesn't seem like much, and it to some it may seem if Clefairy is unworthy of such as small move, but 5 words in the last month or so has changed that: The Gaining Popularity of Probopass. While most people use Muk on Steel-Trapping teams, I think Clefairy got the most benefits from it. Eliminating Pawniard/Mawile/Metang/Opposing Probopass is invaluable to it's calm mind sweeps. Did I mention Mawile's most popular defensive set is beaten 100% of the time? It also tanks hits like you wouldn't believe. Check some of the strongest hits in the tier from the one spread it runs...

**252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 183-216 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 211-249 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 180-213 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
**252+ SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 160-190 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
**252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 280-331 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Poison Jab vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 272-324 (79 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Strongest 100% accurate SE move in the tier.

Clefairy paralyzes them and can either switch to a more suitable teammate or soft-boiled and hope for paralysis. This is factored with the asteriske ones ** don't have any calm mind boosts. Do I think Clefairy should be A+? Not quite, but moving it up one pokemon on the VR is a reasonable request.

Wartortle to D or Unranked. Let's look at some benefits of the Water-type hazard removers in PU. Pelipper has no weakness to grass, recovery, a fantastic defense stat and U-turn; Lumineon has an immunity to Water moves and U-turn; Prinplup has SR and Defiant; Swanna has no weakness to grass and recovery; Watortle has Foresight... Foresight? That's it? Foresight is not a good enough when there are only 4 viable ghost types in the tier: Dusknoir. Gourgeist Drifblim and Misdreavus. It's weak to all hazards, no recovery, no immunities, no hazards for itself to set, and has no offensive presence. When your an NFE that's outclassed by 4 other pokemon, you need to be dropped.

Carbink to D It's Weather/SR/Explosion setter set is outclassed by Golem/Relicanth/etc. It's MonoRestTalk set is outclassed by Muk/Klang/etc. No offensive presence with out several consecutive boosts. IMO it needs to drop.
 
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Zebstrika from A+ to Middle of A. Yes, I originally asked it to be put into the bottom of A+, but after some more research and careful consideration, it doesn't perform at the same level as say Leafeon or Muk right now. My biggest reason in asking for Zebstrika to drop is that there are a plethora of high viability specially defensive ground types that eat Zebby's HP Ices for days. These include SpeDef Golem, Stunfisk, Camerupt and Trapinch. Zebstrikas stats aren't exceptionally good like they were before either. Floatzel is less splashable, meaning we don't need Zebstrika on every offensive team like we did in the past, and a base 80 special attack isn't doing it any favors. Zebstrika is still certainly the best Electric type glue for offensive teams, but it under-performs these days and I think it warrants a drop to A.

Clefairy move to Top of A. Moving up 1 spot above Mawile doesn't seem like much, and it to some it may seem if Clefairy is unworthy of such as small move, but 5 words in the last month or so has changed that: The Gaining Popularity of Probopass. While most people use Muk on Steel-Trapping teams, I think Clefairy got the most benefits from it. Eliminating Pawniard/Mawile/Metang/Opposing Probopass is invaluable to it's calm mind sweeps. Did I mention Mawile's most popular defensive set is beaten 100% of the time? It also tanks hits like you wouldn't believe. Check some of the strongest hits in the tier from the one spread it runs...

**252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 183-216 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 211-249 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 180-213 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
**252+ SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 160-190 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
**252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 280-331 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Poison Jab vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 272-324 (79 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Strongest 100% accurate SE move in the tier.

Clefairy paralyzes them and can either switch to a more suitable teammate or soft-boiled and hope for paralysis. This is factored with the asteriske ones ** don't have any calm mind boosts. Do I think Clefairy should be A+? Not quite, but moving it up one pokemon on the VR is a reasonable request.

Wartortle to D or Unranked. Let's look at some benefits of the Water-type hazard removers in PU. Pelipper has no weakness to grass, recovery, a fantastic defense stat and U-turn; Lumineon has an immunity to Water moves and U-turn; Prinplup has SR and Defiant; Swanna has no weakness to grass and recovery; Watortle has Foresight... Foresight? That's it? Foresight is not a good enough when there are only 3 viable ghost types in the tier: Dusknoir. Drifblim and Misdreavus. It's weak to all hazards, no recovery, no immunities, no hazards for itself to set, and has no offensive presence. When your an NFE that's outclassed by 4 other pokemon, you need to be dropped.

Carbink to D It's Weather/SR/Explosion setter set is outclassed by Golem/Relicanth/etc. It's MonoRestTalk set is outclassed by Muk/Klang/etc. No offensive presence with out several consecutive boosts. IMO it needs to drop.
I kinda disagree with all noms but Clef's. I was very thorn on Clefairy moving to A+ as Muk around means steel types have gotten more common, but steels types getting common also make Probopass better (which can be a nice partner for Clefairy). Muk itself also hinders Clefairy's viability a bit, being able to use it as a set up fodder.



We never have really only ran Zebstrika because of Floatzel's presence. Definitely not. Zebstrika is one of the fastest non-scarfed mons avaliable and it has a decent SpA stat and workable special movepool; Volt Switch is also a very nice tool as it can pivot around and chip some of its imunity-lacking checks, while grabbing offensive momentum. Its abilities also grant some imunities, meaning Zebs can bring some defensive utility to table. Sap Sipper let it act as a competent check to things like Quilladin (specially the defensive set), Leafeon, Jumpluff (a counter, actually), Tangela, and etc; While Lightning Rod let it act as your electric imunity if your rocker slot has been taken by something like Mawile. Overall this thing is an awesome glue as of now and deserves to be where it is.



I think you're kind of misunderstanding Wartortle's niche here. First of all, I'm very sad you've mentioned Drifblim as a spinblocker and didn't mention Gourgeist (;-;), but ok. Also, Prinplup's niche is not Defiant: in fact, it's the role compression it has between Defog and Rocks (no, it's not both either, as this combo is incompatible) but let's go straight into facts. All of those reasons you gave could also be given to the mons you mentioned. Why use Lumineon when Pelipper and Swanna have grass neutrality and resist water anyway, while having recovery? Wartortle's niche here is being a bulky hazard remover that can't just be blocked. Thanks to Foresight, it can't be spinblocked. It's also the only viable spinner in the tier without a weakness to rocks, which grants it a niche.



Another mon you've underrated a lot. I wonder what are some guys definition to 'outclass'... Just because Klang/Muk/whatever can also do set up + RestTalk it doesn't mean anything else is outclassed at that role, lol. Carbink's got a plethora of resistances that let it check and use as set up fodder dangerous threats such as most Normal- and Flying-types (barring SubSD Bouffalant), which is a huge and unshared niche. It also doesn't need its item, meaning it can act as a Knock Off fodder thanks to its typing and defenses (Klang dislikes losing eviolite, Muk's defense uninvested doesn't allow it to tank strong Knock Offs). The inability to beat CroMuk 1v1 unless it runs Power Gem (which even then may lose) and the presence of steel-types to shut it down a bit, though. But if Clefairy hasn't dropped even though it suffers the same problems (in terms of checks), I don't see why this should drop either.
 
Thought I might share some of my thoughts:
Solrock's one of those mons that has been slowly and slowly dipping in terms of effectiveness and viability. On one hand you have the slightly above average physical bulk as a wall, but on the other hand very subpar special bulk. What this means is that whereas bulky Stealth Rockers such as Golem, Metang, Stunfisk, Clefairy and Probopass, some of the best Rockers right now, can take on a lot of special attacks, Solrock is left having to heal with Morning Sun almost constantly after being hit with practically any special attack such as Volt Switch just so it can check what it actually needs to. Solrock's immunity to ground and ability to burn and recover is nice, but this doesn't negate the fact that metagame trends has not been so kind to it lately. People have been using other better rockers in Solrock's place and have been using ground resists instead of ground immunities such as Leafeon, Gourgeist or Vibrava which generally better support teams. Not only is Solrock susceptible to residual damage such as Toxic (meaning it has to recover more and often lose more momentum), it also has to either run items like Colbur Berry to tank on Dark attacks from the things it's trying to switch into, otherwise, running lefties means it is susceptible to Dodrio's Knock Off, Stoutland's Crunch, Ursaring's Crunch, etc. And it should be noted that running Colbur means no residual recovery on a wall that doesn't exactly survive very long in the first place. Lastly, Solrock's STAB move is not very spammable. Whereas mons like Clefairy can freely spam Moonblast or Thunder Wave, or Golem which sports power EQs and Stone Edges, or Probopass which can gain momentum or hit decently hard with Flash Cannon, Solrock either has to run Zen Headbutt or Rock Slide, which means different mons can take advantage of Solrock not having the other STAB move or vice versa (case in point: running Zen Headbutt can't hit Darks or Flyings vs. running Rock Slide means you can't hit grounds (the mons you want to check)). Not to mention Zen or RSlide is generally pretty weak.

TLDR: there are better rockers, poor bulk for wall meaning it has to recover often, weak STAB, Solrock should move down to B-


Carbink currently sits at C- right now, meaning that it has more than just a niche, which is characterized by those in D rank. Sporting really high defenses and a manageable HP means that it can switch into a lot of normals (better than Solrock actually), birds, fires and bugs which are pretty common in PU. The ability for it to reliably set up the sun, set up Trick Room while setting up rocks and booming means that it does its job quite well for a mon in C-. CroBink also shouldn't be dismissed as it is a legitimate threat just as CroMuk is, as you all should know. Although Carbink doesn't have great offenses and requires more support than other RestTalk mons, it still holds its place in the meta and should not be overlooked. Overall, Carbink isn't really outclassed by much, if anything, and should retain its place in C-.

TLDR: consistent rocker, weather or TR setter, decent typing/resists, more than 1 niche, Carbink should stay in C-

Now for one of my nominations: Bronzor is a mon that I've explored quite a bit and I do believe it holds a valid niche in the meta, especially on defensive or stall teams. Bronzor functions a lot like a cross between Metang and as a "poor man's Solrock", but what it does better than Solrock is its plethora of resistances or immunities (11 to be exact). Not only does Bronzor check normal types (albeit being weak to Knock Off), it checks Golem (or grounds), Dragons in Altaria and Fraxure, Poisons in Arbok and Muk (which can't touch it at all, really), Fairies such as Mr. Mime and Mawile not carrying Fire Blast, most Psychic types, Ice types such as Regice or Lapras, and a lot more that I can't recall atm. It fits well on defensive or stall teams in the sense that it hard checks the mons it's suppose to check, and most of its counters such as Pawniard, Cacturne, Monferno, etc are taken care of fairly easily on these team archetypes. It synergizes well with mons like Muk on defensive teams, or mons like Altaria which can take on a lot of the darks and fires of the tier. Let's not forget the fact that Bronzor is customizable in the sense that you can run it fully physically defense to check certain mons, or fully specially defensive to check other mons. Either way, you retain Bronzor's excellent bulk and defenses. Its ability to use Psywave means that it has an effective way to weaken or straight up 1v1 many low HP mons of the tier, not to mention Bronzor check some of the biggest threats to defensive teams in Duosion and Clefairy, among others -->

+6 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 55-64 (17.3 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 102-120 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 82-97 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 136-160 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD or 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature or Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Rest
- Sleep Talk



Basically, Bronzor is pretty on par with many other mons in D right now, with its niche in typing + ability which grants it a lot of useful resistances in the meta, ability to actually deal non passive damage for defensive teams, and being a reliable Stealth Rocker, and thus should rise to D.
 
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Now for one of my nominations: Bronzor is a mon that I've explored quite a bit and I do believe it holds a valid niche in the meta, especially on defensive or stall teams. Bronzor functions a lot like a cross between Metang and as a "poor man's Solrock", but what it does better than Solrock is its plethora of resistances or immunities (11 to be exact). Not only does Bronzor check normal types (albeit being weak to Knock Off), it checks Golem (or grounds), Dragons in Altaria and Fraxure, Poisons in Arbok and Muk (which can't touch it at all, really), Fairies such as Mr. Mime and Mawile not carrying Fire Blast, most Psychic types, Ice types such as Regice or Lapras, and a lot more that I can't recall atm. It fits well on defensive or stall teams in the sense that it hard checks the mons it's suppose to check, and most of its counters such as Pawniard, Cacturne, Monferno, etc are taken care of fairly easily on these team archetypes. It synergizes well with mons like Muk on defensive teams, or mons like Altaria which can take on a lot of the darks and fires of the tier. Let's not forget the fact that Bronzor is customizable in the sense that you can run it fully physically defense to check certain mons, or fully specially defensive to check other mons. Either way, you retain Bronzor's excellent bulk and defenses. Its ability to use Psywave means that it has an effective way to weaken or straight up 1v1 many low HP mons of the tier, not to mention Bronzor check some of the biggest threats to defensive teams in Duosion and Clefairy, among others -->

+6 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 55-64 (17.3 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 102-120 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 82-97 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 136-160 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Basically, Bronzor is pretty on par with many other mons in D right now, with its niche in typing + ability which grants it a lot of useful resistances in the meta, ability to actually deal non passive damage for defensive teams, and being a reliable Stealth Rocker, and thus should rise to D.
What is your bronzor set if you don't mind me asking?
 

LordST

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What is your bronzor set if you don't mind me asking?
It's usually something like this:

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psywave
- Rest
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
As specified in Slowbroths post above, max spdef can also be run to better check Psychic and Ice types. Bronzor is a huge asset to stall-oriented teams. It can just 1v1 a large amount of threats that can destroy stall like Duosion/Clef, Np Mime, Muk, etc. I feel Bronzor definitely deserves a place on our VR and should at least be D rank.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Big S-rank change!!
Muk A+ to S
Monferno S to A+
Cacturne S to A+
Golem S to A+

Glalie C to C+
Luxray C- to D
Bronzor unranked to D
Frogadier from unranked to D

The S-rank changes may seem a bit odd and sudden but just hear me out. Basically, the S-rank was quite filled up with 5 Pokemon, which can be alright, but as we were talking about a possible Muk promotion to S-rank we felt that having a large S-rank wasn't representative of the metagame (if you need reasoning for Muk this post sums up its positives well). Ultimately, we felt that Monferno, Cacturne, and Golem were just not on the level of the other S-ranks, and though they are on level higher than A+, it makes more sense to be stricter with S-rank. Cacturne has had trouble with recent meta trends such as the huge rise in popularity of Sdef Clefairy and Muk, while offensive teams got more prepared with Sucker Punch by using Pokemon like Rapidash. Monferno's counters such as Lumineon and Vibrava are decently common, and importantly a good amount of what it checks has become less popular like Cacturne and Regice, meaning it is less splashable than what it was. Golem's promotion to S-rank was already controversial, but now it no longer fit in with the new S-rank, as with all its weaknesses it is hard to put in as much work as you would like. Stoutland and Rotom-F remained as their primary sets (band and scarf respectively) are still amazing in this metagame, and there hasn't been many metagame changes effecting their viability greatly (though our decision on Rotom was slightly conflicted). For a more TL;DR version as to why Muk rose, its specially defensive set can wall the majority of special attackers in the tier, and sweep with easily with support while still performing well without.

Bronzor was added as it can wall a large amount, such as Muk, Golem, and Regice, which no other Pokemon can wall, and doesn't even care about trappers, whereas Frogadier is a solid wallbreaker and has access to Toxic Spikes. Keep in mind that D is just provisional and they might move further up in the future.

Discussion list:
Rotom-F S to A+
Munchlax C to C+
Servine C to C+
Bronzor D to higher
 

HotFuzzBall

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Bronzor D to higher - Disagree for now

I have tested just a small handful of games using Defensive Bronzor (NU set) as my "Muk+Trapper" core check. On paper it looks like an amazing counter to Probopass, Trapinch and Muk since Bronzor has Levitate which none of the Steel-types in this tier have access to (unless you count Magnet Rise); but, the main problem for me is there isn't much Bronzor can do back to those mons in particular. Probopass is immune to Toxic (Psywave can do some good damage though), and it usually just boils down to a PP stall war with Trapinch and Muk due to Psywave's unreliability. Running a more offensive set is also not the best due to Bronzor's lack luster offensive stats (24/24) but, I'll most likely change my mind if a more innovative set does surface.

Rotom-F S to A+ - Neutral, leaning towards disagree

Rotom-F has been a fairly consistent mon throughout most of the meta fluctuations in PU. I feel like the reasons for a drop come from Blizzard's unreliability (70% accuracy is risky at times) and also the rise of Probopass and Muk. I think Rotom-F is still a good mon mainly since offense seems to be the popular style of choice currently, meaning it can easily revenge kill the majority non-scarfed mons. Also Monferno seems to be on the decline which helps out Rotom-F and it is also fairly hard to switch in due to its great dual stab combo as well.

not sure about Servine or Munchlax as I have not used them on a serious team.
 
I don't really like contributing anymore but I happened to see this nom and thought I'd chime in.
to D

There is literally no reason this shouldn't move up to D or even C- / C or something, as this thing has the ability to wall the majority of teams easily, while it also straight up walls CroMuk and isn't trapped by Trapinch. The biggest competition this thing faces is from Metang, which runs a somewhat similar set and has niches over Bronzor such as Pursuit and some more offensive capability, but Bronzor also walls the shit out of Golem, which is super nice for a Steel-type, giving you a great multiple-mon check in one Pokemon.
Bronzor D to higher - Disagree for now

I have tested just a small handful of games using Defensive Bronzor (NU set) as my "Muk+Trapper" core check. On paper it looks like an amazing counter to Probopass, Trapinch and Muk since Bronzor has Levitate which none of the Steel-types in this tier have access to (unless you count Magnet Rise); but, the main problem for me is there isn't much Bronzor can do back to those mons in particular. Probopass is immune to Toxic (Psywave can do some good damage though), and it usually just boils down to a PP stall war with Trapinch and Muk due to Psywave's unreliability. Running a more offensive set is also not the best due to Bronzor's lack luster offensive stats (24/24) but, I'll most likely change my mind if a more innovative set does surface.
I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here, as Probopass does a maximum of like 12 to Bronzor, and Bronzor can consistently and easily beat Probopass with Psywave. Muk literally has no means of touching Bronzor, and Psywave eventually KOs Muk, and even if your opponent attempts to PP stall you with it, you have much more PP and you can just keep clicking rest. The best Trapinch set right now (Earthquake / Quick Attack / Toxic / Rest) is only able to hit Bronzor with Quick Attack, so it's the same situation with Muk here, as you eventually beat it or can easily PP stall it, so I have no clue how this is keeping it from moving up. I'd also consider Bronzor a staple on stall at this point, as I've found it even better than Metang in most cases.

Edit: ALSO it beats CM + AA Duosion, unlike Metang.

tl;dr move it up to D or C-
 
I don't really like contributing anymore but I happened to see this nom and thought I'd chime in.
to D

There is literally no reason this shouldn't move up to D or even C- / C or something, as this thing has the ability to wall the majority of teams easily, while it also straight up walls CroMuk and isn't trapped by Trapinch. The biggest competition this thing faces is from Metang, which runs a somewhat similar set and has niches over Bronzor such as Pursuit and some more offensive capability, but Bronzor also walls the shit out of Golem, which is super nice for a Steel-type, giving you a great multiple-mon check in one Pokemon.

I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here, as Probopass does a maximum of like 12 to Bronzor, and Bronzor can consistently and easily beat Probopass with Psywave. Muk literally has no means of touching Bronzor, and Psywave eventually KOs Muk, and even if your opponent attempts to PP stall you with it, you have much more PP and you can just keep clicking rest. The best Trapinch set right now (Earthquake / Quick Attack / Toxic / Rest) is only able to hit Bronzor with Quick Attack, so it's the same situation with Muk here, as you eventually beat it or can easily PP stall it, so I have no clue how this is keeping it from moving up. I'd also consider Bronzor a staple on stall at this point, as I've found it even better than Metang in most cases.

Edit: ALSO it beats CM + AA Duosion, unlike Metang.

tl;dr move it up to D or C-
I agree with this nom. Bronzor is a cool little mon that can counter a large portion of very hard to counter metagame threats and I feel as that alone has enough merit to pull it to D rank or higher. You could also run sleep talk in the last slot if you wanted it to function as a non-passive jumpluff counter so I'm on board with this.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Guys Bronzor is already D rank, the discussion point was whether or not to bump it higher. Also I dont like raising Servine in this Muk dominated meta, it's better than most of the rank but also p much worse than all of C+ and fits well with Munchlax. One potential thing would be raise servine and munchlax and drop leavanny and mightyena, but I'm just throwing around some ideas, the point is there's some weirdness in C/C+ still thanks to inflation.

Vibrava B- to B
This should be fairly straightforward, it's just gotten so much better recently with phys def becoming a thing. Being the only defogger to check Muk is something, Rapidash and Monferno are incredibly powerful and popular and it's pretty much the best general fire counter, and beating golem is beating golem. I know I wanted this to drop pretty far pretty recently, but Muk and phys def have turned this into the practically irrelevant falling defogger into something that should go on the same level as other mons that have very solid unique attributes that carve out a really unique niche in the meta like Solrock and Gorebyss. Also I have no evidence to back this up other than my own bit of experience, but I'm pretty sure it gets the most usage out of the whole rank by far (maybe chinchou? i doubt it) which should speak to how much easier it is to justify on a team.

Simisear B to B-
On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I have a really hard time justifying this mon over Rapidash and Monferno anymore. Its main allure is wallbreaking, but not only do we have a lot of other wallbreakers that arent so frail and easily checked, rap and monf are pretty strong in their own right. Shifts haven't exactly been kind to this with additions like Muk, Cacturne (grass that it can't actually revenge), and Pelipper, we've seen Politoed and Lumineon getting quite a bit better recently along with other checks like SpDef Clef, and the rise of all these random checks makes it a lot less effective when trying to get it to break in practice even if in theory it can do plenty of damage to most of these mons, knock off clef, etc. Also the 4mss is a bit annoying, it can function while lacking a move but there's enough coverage needed that you'll notice when you really needed HP Electric or whatever. I know it'd be placing this in the same rank as Ninetales, but I no longer think that's a misrepresentation of their effectiveness. Both of them used to be top tier (s/o S rank Ninetales) but I think it's finally time to shift Simisear below B.
 
Rotom-F to A+ DISAGREE : I think Rotom-F should stay in. It is an extremely good revenge killer and a great pivot with volt switch (on scarf set). It can outspeed some of the fastest mons in the meta, like Floatzel and Zebrastrika, and give the user nice momentum with volt switch or do alot with its stab tbolt or blizzard. It has nice alternative sets with subwisp and subsplit. Although these sets are not quite as good as the scarf set, they can come in useful at times (eg. subsplit on sand teams) and they can be a great suprise factor at times. Now obviously if you switch in on rocks you reveal lefties or with life orb sub split, whenever you attack you reveal subsplit set making it a situational surprise factor, but none the less its pretty neat.

Servine to C+ AGREE : Servine is just one of those Pokemon that can be a problem. After it gets a sub up, you have a problem. It's late game potential to sweep is extremely nice with contrary and with access to synthesis good luck taking this thing down. When used with eviolite it has some nice natural bulk to tank a few hits. It gets completely walled by fire types, but after they are eliminated it can put in alot of work (and even sweep!). It is outsped by a few mons and doesn't really appreciate some mons with sap sipper, like Bouf. It may be easily beaten but it definitely something that you should be prepared for when building teams, so I think it fits nicely in C+ rank.

Munchlax to C+ AGREE : This Pokemon, although walled by ghost types, can be a really neat Pokemon to add to your stall teams. It benefits greatly now, because we only have 1 fighting type (Monferno) in the tier that can deal super effective damage on it. And tbh Monferno doesn't even want to switch into this, especially if its vs a stall team. It can act as a nice late game sweeper with restalk curse or act as a neat pp staller if you need to stall out another mon's PP for whatever reason. Overall this mon is just an extremely nice add onto stall teams and desserves C+.

Bronzor to higher than D (DISAGREE) : Ok so I get that Bronzor is great and all, resisting and being immune to alot of different mons in the tier, but this thing is also extremely passive. The set runs toxic to try to not be setter fodder for anything, but it doesnt really have a way to deal with Pokemon that use Sub or Taunt, like Gourgeist Small and Probopass. It is definitely setup fodder to mons like: Bouf, CM Grumpig and Servine. Bronzor may be worthy for D, but I definately think not any higher than D.

Simisear to B- AGREE : Simisear is a weak enough wallbreaker and is a poor nasty pot set up sweeper. When teambuilding, I feel that Simisear isnt really a Pokemon i need to be too worried about, as it can be easily beaten by mons with fire immunity or water types. It can also be easily revenge killed due to its weak defenses. Being the only viable mon to get access to knock off is extremely nice, so I do see reason to use this, however most of the time I feel I would rather use other fire types such as Monferno or Rapidash.

Vibrava to B leaning towards DISAGREE : I dont really see many times when Vibrava is good. It is a really nice pivot and being a defogger that resists rocks damage and is immune to ground types is really nice. Like most defoggers it gets access to recovery with Roost, however, I do think Vibrava is lacking too much offense to get to B rank. It cant touch Pokemon which are immune to EQ, like Rotom-F, Swanna and Misdreavus, which can put you into some horrible situations. The right predictions are vital here. I also feel like this mon slowly loses in most battles that i have seen it being used. It gets worn down a bit faster then it can recover, at least the Sp Def set does. I would also find it hard to put on my team because usually I would use a ground type Rock Setter. Having two ground types in this meta is pretty bad, due to common weaknesses but i guess something like Defensive Vibrava + Sp Def Cam could work (although as you can see it loses to water types with ice beam, like Floatzel). For the moment i disagree but after further persuasion I could end up changing my mind.
 
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Josh

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Rotom-F to A+ DISAGREE : I think Rotom-S should stay in. It is an extremely good revenge killer and a great pivot with volt switch (on scarf set). It has nice alternative sets with subwisp and subsplit. Although these sets are not quite as good as the scarf set, they can come in useful at times (eg. subsplit on sand teams) and they can be a great suprise factor at times. Now obviously if you switch in on rocks you reveal lefties or with life orb sub split, whenever you attack you reveal subsplit set making it a situational suprise factor, but none the less its pretty neat.

Servine to C+ AGREE : Servine is just one of those Pokemon that can be a problem. After it gets a sub up, you have a problem. It's late game potential to sweep is extremely nice with contrary and with access to synthesis good luck taking this thing down. When used with eviolite it has some nice natural bulk to tank a few hits. It gets completely walled by fire types, but after they are eliminated it can put in alot of work (and even sweep!). It is outsped by a few mons and doesn't really appreciate some mons with sap sipper, like Bouf. It may be easily beaten but it definitely something that you should be prepared for when building teams, so I think it fits nicely in C+ rank.

Munchlax to C+ AGREE : This Pokemon, although walled by ghost types, can be a really neat Pokemon to add to your stall teams. It benefits greatly now, because we only have 1 fighting type (Monferno) in the tier that can deal super effective damage on it. And tbh Monferno doesn't even want to switch into this, especially if its vs a stall team. It can act as a nice late game sweeper with restalk curse or act as a neat pp staller if you need to stall out another mon's PP for whatever reason. Overall this mon is just an extremely nice add onto stall teams and desserves C+.

Bronzor to D (AGREE) or Higher (DISAGREE) : Ok so I get that Bronzor is great and all, resisting and being immune to alot of different mons in the tier, but this thing is also extremely passive. The set runs toxic to try to not be setter fodder for anything, but it doesnt really have a way to deal with Pokemon that use Sub or Taunt, like Gourgeist Small and Probopass. It is definitely setup fodder to mons like: Bouf, CM Grumpig and Servine. But since this is D rank we are talking about, and since no D rank mon is going to be perfect, I think Bronzor may be worthy for a rise. But definately not any higher than D.

Simisear to B- AGREE : Simisear is a weak enough wallbreaker and is a poor nasty pot set up sweeper. When teambuilding, I feel that Simisear isnt really a Pokemon i need to be too worried about, as it can be easily beaten by mons with fire immunity or water types. It can also be easily revenge killed due to its weak defenses. Being the only viable mon to get access to knock off is extremely nice, so I do see reason to use this, however most of the time I feel I would rather use other fire types such as Monferno or Rapidash.

Vibrava to B leaning towards DISAGREE : I dont really see many times when Vibrava is good. It is a really nice pivot and being a defogger that resists rocks damage and is immune to ground types is really nice. Like most defoggers it gets access to recovery with Roost, however, I do think Vibrava is lacking too much offense to get to B rank. It cant touch Pokemon which are immune to EQ, like Rotom-F, Swanna and Misdreavus, which can put you into some horrible situations. The right predictions are vital here. I also feel like this mon slowly loses in most battles that i have seen it being used. It gets worn down a bit faster then it can recover, at least the Sp Def set does. I would also find it hard to put on my team because usually I would use a ground type Rock Setter. Having two ground types in this meta is pretty bad, due to common weaknesses but i guess something like Defensive Vibrava + Sp Def Cam could work (although as you can see it loses to water types with ice beam, like Floatzel). For the moment i disagree but after further persuasion I could end up changing my mind.
Bronzor has psywave which is moderately strong and punishes all switchins that aren't dark types (Bronzor does not want to be in on those anyhow), without psywave it probably wouldn't even be viable. It's almost comparable to chansey in that it checks half of its respective tier but is too passive and easily abusable to be an S rank thread. I'd like to see it in C or C- though, it's definitely better than everything in D
 

ManOfMany

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The rankings look quite solid right now, mostly everything is fine and most of the recent nominations make sense. Bronzor is quite neat and definitely deserves at least C-, and Servine’s decent and should be around B- (though Muk, Monferno, and other grass resists prevent any higher). Here are my thoughts on some of the other pokemon:

Muk to S- Disagree. I don’t have much to say that’s new, but I don’t feel Muk is S-worthy. The only S-worthy set of course is Curse, but I do feel like there’s a lot of counterplay to it. Golem’s still the most common pokemon in the tier and Steel-types are also very common pokemon to add to a team. If you check the PP of the moves of defensive steel types, they will win 1v1 as since they usually have more total PP, while offensive steel types like Mawile and Pawniard aren’t concerned at all. Meanwhile it’s not like Curse Muk has an auto-win even when these pokemon aren’t on the team since it has only mediocre physical bulk before boosting and the nature of using rest means it is not that difficult to pressure with either setup sweepers or common wall breakers like Stoutland or Lapras. That’s not to say that Curse Muk can’t beat these threats when paired with Probopass or Trapinch, but the nature of such teams comes with their own set of significant flaws- being slow and very weak to mid-speed wallbreakers like Stoutland and Mr.Mime. Muk’s still amazing (and one of my fav pokemon!) but it’s not necessarily a pokemon that can put work in every match-up and I don’t consider it more threatening than Monferno, Floatzel, or Stoutland.

Simisear to B- Disagree. Yeah, it’s a fire-type that doesn’t check the Holy Sucker Punch Trio (Cacturne, Pawniard, Mawile), which is a big reason to not use it over Monferno or Rapidash (mainly I’m talking about Special 4 attacks Simisear with Fire blast, knock off, focus blast, and hidden power electric/ice). However, it’s not as hard to play around its checks as you think- It is checked by water types, but Lumineon is 2HKOd by HP electric, which also does a lot to Politoed, and Chinchou and Prinplup doesn’t like taking Knock Off. Monferno can barely check it as it dies to Fire + Focus Blast, while other Fire checks like Vibrava and Gabite usually run physically defensive so can barely tank a fire blast, and still have to be wary of possible HP ice. In addition, Simisear’s sheer power against neutral pokemon is amazing, and its speed gives it many opportunities to put in work vs common balance teams.

Speaking of fire-types

Ninetales to B. Ninetales is too threatening of a pokemon to be in B- rank, and is probably better than Simisear in this meta. Although not possessing as much raw power, it should not be underestimated just how useful Energy Ball is. Being able to hit water-types without having to tiptoe around them like Simisear is really useful, as well as being able to use the high special bulk to boost and to check from Rotom-F. The main problem with Ninetales is that it can’t hit Grumpig, Monferno, and Gabite/Vibrava at the same time (it has to choose one of Psyshock, Dark Pulse, and HP Ice). However, the opponent usually does not have two of these pokemon, and when one gets worn down Ninetales just becomes extremely threatening. Overall it’s definitely better than the other pokemon in the B- ranks.

Rampardos to B-. This is solely based on Rampardos’ Scarf set, which I’ve been experimenting with lately. I know people will immediately jump on me and say “It’s too slow for a scarfer” but it’s not really meant to be used as a Scarfer. Rampardos with Choice Scarf hits a nice 113 speed tier, being able to revenge kill Raichu, Ursaring, Rapidash, and Jumpluff as well as several slower threats. It’s to be thought of as a Choice Band pokemon that’s also really fast, because in truth it is just as powerful as Jolly Choice Band Kabutops. Rock Slide is nice for cleaning teams and EQ provides perfect coverage alongside it, 2HKOing nearly all the steel-types that check it (so it can break its own counters and then clean later). Meanwhile neutral coverage moves like Superpower can grab people trying to predict either Rock Slide or EQ and Ice Beam does >90% to Gabite and Vibrava. Functioning as somewhat of a wallbreaker while also having such a nice speed is just really solid.

I also have some quick suggestions to some of the pokemon in the A ranking, because in my opinion there’s a bit too much rank inflation.

Vullaby to A- Okay this one might look weird considering it walls some of the best pokemon in tier in Leafeon, Cacturne, Monferno, and Grumpig. Yet I still find this pokemon extremely easy to pressure. It’s weak to Stealth rocks and having no lefties recovery, and also being weak to Knock Off and status and unable to seriously pressure most of the tier’s special attackers. All these traits make it really easy to put this pokemon in low health over the course of the match just with smart play. Also being a Defog user that loses to 5 out of 6 of the main SR setters in the tier (Golem, Stunfisk, Mawile, Probopass, Relicanth) is just a terrible trait to have, and it is certainly not A level in terms of Defogging ability.

Zebstrika to A. Zebstrika’s just not good enough for A+, it just doesn’t hit hard enough to be a consistent offensive threat in the current meta. It really struggles against Muk teams since Muk obviously walls it, and the increase in usage of ground-types other than Golem like Trapinch and Vibrava doesn’t help either. What sucks is that it can’t cover both Tank Golem as well as other ground-types unlike Raichu. And even when it has the freedom to Volt Switch there is still too much common counterplay against it even on common offensive teams such as priority, bulky threats like Stoutland, Grumpig, and Monferno and choice scarf users. Overall it’s worse than the rest of the A+ ranks except maybe Grumpig.

Roselia to A-. I think Rose was mentioned to drop several times before, but it was sort of dismissed. I think it’s time now- the offensive meta is just too hostile to Rose for it to function well. There’s just so many types of offensive pokemon that can seriously threaten it- fires, normal, flying, steel, psychic, ice are all extremely common. And while it can support the team, Tspikes has gotten significantly worse since Muk appeared, and Spikes has never been that spectacular. Rose is still fairly threatening offensively due to Sleep Powder and dual STABs, and it does check some important pokemon like Cacturne and Floatzel, so it certainly shouldn’t drop any lower than A- though


phew that'll be my VR post for the next few months. hi everyone :-)
 
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Gonna have to say, I tested servine out like 3 weeks ago for a good bit of time and it was very hard to use effectively with how many grass immunities, steels, other grasses, and poison types we have running around. That being said, it has a fantastic speed tier and after a +2 boost it's quite threatening to unprepped teams. I think it's fine where it is just judging by how it's very matchup dependent and it's kind've dead weight until you can remove the various obstacles you're bound to find on each opposing team. Keep Servine C
 

TJ

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vibrava.gif
Vibrava B- to B:
Vibrava has been genuinely good this meta, being able to check threats such as Muk, Golem, Monferno, Rapidash etc. Vibrava provides great role compression with its physical defensive set being able to check a number of threats, defogger, bulky pivot etc. Physical defensive Vibrava is able to synergize onto teams with Pokémon that desperately need hazards gone to function well, Vibrava's typing sanctions it to be immune to spikes, toxic spikes, and resist rocks giving it a niche over some defoggers and being a great teammate for most Pokémon. Vibrava is withal a good pivot that can U-turn out on threats providing teams with momentum. To wrap things up, Vibrava deserves B rank because of how versatile it is in the Meta game at the moment.
 
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I'm going to go off on a whim here and nominate Whiscash to D.
With the current lay of the meta being Muk + Trapinch / Probopass esque and phys def Vibrava being all the rage; Whiscash is in a very, very good position to capitalize. The mixed DD set breaks probo-muk apart. Muk cannot hurt Whishcash greatly, and neither can Probo or Trapinch - while Leafeon is handled with ice beam (if non-yache) after some prior damage; while things like phys-def Vibrava are bodied by ice beam. While Whiscash does have its share fair of disadvantages (namely a poor speed tier), its more than decent bulk and ability to break down Probo-muk based teams deserves at least some recognition. DD Whiscash also cannot outspeed Zebstrika after a dragon dance, however most Zeb's opt for HP-water to hit Camerupt, so Whicash fares more than well versus the current meta Zebstrika.
For these reasons, I think Whiscash deserves a place at least in D rank with other pokemon such as Bronzor - who have also come out of nowhere in relation to the current probo-muk trend.
I do not have any replays as of yet, but here are some calcs to prove its effectiveness.
252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 385-455 (92.9 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 174-211 (57.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 437-520 (143.7 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Trapinch: 304-359 (103.4 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 192-229 (70.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Vibrava: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 0 Atk Muk Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whiscash: 145-171 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Whiscash: 73-87 (20.2 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Whiscash: 110-130 (30.4 - 36%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whiscash: 141-166 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
Zebstrika to A.
I agree with ManOfMany

While I agree that Zebstrika is a wonderful Volt Switch user with it's high Speed tier I just feel that due to how frail it is and the fact that there are a large number of Pokemon in PU that don't mind switching in on it; Zebstrika should in fact be moved down a rank. It's number of walls may be quite large but that doesn't take away from Zebstrika's main purpose in the metagame. Having the second highest Speed stat in the tier it is mostly used as a revenge killer and or a pivot into Grass or Electric attacks given the chosen Ability. Zebstrika is able to fill a hole on a lot of teams however it lacks certain qualities that help every team. It cannot just be thrown on willy nilly like you can with Monferno which is currently an A+. It just isn't as good as it once was (According to the PU usage Stats). For these reasons and Probably more that I can't think of right now I must nominate it for A ranking.
 

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