Format Discussion Pokemon Sun/Moon Random Battle sets

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Adeleine

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both sound fine for random so long as you aren't rolling sash+recovery

If we set specific items for specific random battle mons I'd prob prefer lo since Gogoat's speed can make setup hard in a non-Preview format but since we don't both are adequate
 


Celesteela with only physical attacks, SpA being its dominant stat, Beast Boost.

Isn't this a kind of useless set? Why not give Celesteela instead moves like Flash Cannon, Giga Drain, Fire Blast?
 


Celesteela with only physical attacks, SpA being its dominant stat, Beast Boost.

Isn't this a kind of useless set? Why not give Celesteela instead moves like Flash Cannon, Giga Drain, Fire Blast?
Well, probably because physical celesteela is standard - with the exception of earthquake over protect, that's standard doubles celesteela. Celesteela only has 6 more spa than atk, and its special moves are both weaker and worse. In doubles, special celesteela is niche and inconsistant. It does, however, seem unfortunate that it has the full ev investment considering beast boost, though.
 

Adeleine

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QT's right that phys celesteela is pretty standard. It does get Air Slash and Fire Blast as options, but you didn't happen to roll either. Heavy Slam is used over Flash Cannon bc unless/until you activate Beast Boost, the former is considerably more powerful and effective. Giga is similarly too weak and suffers from not that-impressive coverage.
 

Danuh

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I don't see the point of having Thunder without Rain Dance in the same set. It certainly creates bad matchups.
 

SparksBlade

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can we
  • get rid of carbink that never gets rocks
  • get rid of wormadam formes that never have rocks
  • get rid of screens primarina
  • get rid of mamoswine with no eq (rocks icicle crash knock shard) so klefki and camerupt don't counter it
  • add lo sigilyph
  • remove screens xatu+make it have roost
  • add soul dew latis
  • get rid of av mr mime, av donphan, hippowdown without slack off, non-protect sharpedo
i've had at least one mon that i'd expect to have rocks in each of the last 12 games or so, and it never had rocks and it's really frustrating cos rocks carbink is 100% more helpful than mostly useless screens+boom+moonblast carbink, wormadam without rocks is mostly useless etc etc. even tho randbats is just for fun it's still far less enjoyable when my mandibuzz is taunt uturn knock brave bird, or i get leftovers honchkrow, or i have cm surf roost draco mega latias

edit: and choice scarf gallade

edit2: and this ferro set
 
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Adeleine

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Guaranteed moves (like mamoswine always getting eq) aren't a mechanic currently, but the idea does have merit. Also, most items are determined by the Pokemon's moves, preventing item changes on specific mons from being possible (usually). Some of these suggestions make such moves more common, though.

Suggestions:
Remove Explosion from Carbink. (It's cool but not as useful as STABs or its utility moves, and gets in the way.)
Remove Reflect/Light Screen/Hyper Voice from Primarina, add Hydro Pump/Calm Mind/Sparkling Aria (This makes it more offensive, as its screener set is too slow and passive to be fully effective. Sparkling Aria outshines Hyper Voice in bypassing Subs and CM lets it be defensive as its typing would indicate while building offensive presence.)
Remove Taunt from Mandibuzz. (too situational for a moveset with so many tools. it gets WW anyway.)
Remove Earthquake from Sharpedo and Sharpedo-Mega. (Too niche benefit, everything else is overall better.)
Remove Superpower from Mamoswine (often redundant and even more often hard to justify)
Remove Substitute from Bisharp (cool in practice but even if it rolls with Sucker, is too difficult-to-utilize)
Remove Curse from Registeel (iron head itself is ok with stab and twave chance and whatever but curse falls too flat given general reliance on rolling resttalk and passivity/wallability)
Add Defog to Flygon. (Not the hazard removing hero the tier deserves, but the one it needs. Resistance to Stealth Rock especially valuable among Defoggers here.)
Remove Safeguard from Wobbuffet. (With Custap Berry available for use in Randoms, Safeguard is interference.)
Remove Protect from Ferrothorn. (has legitimate use, esp with leech seed, but not enough to justify it overall)
Remove Memento from Latios-Mega. (I can't fathom why you'd want to dispense of a mega evolution in this manner, even if its mega latios.)
Make Soul Dew an option for the Latis if they fulfill some set of good criteria (eg not holding mega stone / using Draco Meteor)
Add Piloswine to the NFEs eligible for selection but remove Superpower. (It's Eviolite-enhanced bulk greatly outperforms Mamoswine's and sets it apart as a noticeably bulky yet non-passive rocker.)
 

duck

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Guaranteed moves (like mamoswine always getting eq) aren't a mechanic currently, but the idea does have merit. Also, most items are determined by the Pokemon's moves, preventing item changes on specific mons from being possible (usually). Some of these suggestions make such moves more common, though.

Suggestions:
Remove Explosion from Carbink. (It's cool but not as useful as STABs or its utility moves, and gets in the way.)
Remove Substitute from Bisharp (cool in practice but even if it rolls with Sucker, is too difficult-to-utilize)
Remove Curse from Registeel (iron head itself is ok with stab and twave chance and whatever but curse falls too flat given general reliance on rolling resttalk and passivity/wallability)
Add Piloswine to the NFEs eligible for selection but remove Superpower. (It's Eviolite-enhanced bulk greatly outperforms Mamoswine's and sets it apart as a noticeably bulky yet non-passive rocker.)
Explosion carbink is ok to prevent to be set upped on with sub and also to set up screen, die and let a teammate set up. IMO
Sub bisharp is meh expecially with LO but it's overall ok because bisharp causes many switches
Rest talk curse registeel is a monster in random. REEEALLY hard to beat if you haven't any good special attacker fella.
IIRC NFE were allowed if they were at least ru. But I know that Piloswine is really nice. I'd love to see him around.
 
I would like to throw my support behind guaranteed moves. Not all Pokémon need them (something versatile like Kindgra or Virizion can get by without guaranteed moves), but on top of my head, some examples might include:

- Earthquake on Mamoswine/Garchomp
- Knock Off on Weavile
- Roost on Gligar/Skarmory/Lugia/Mandibuzz
- In general recovery moves on anything defensively focused (Slowbro, Hippowdon...)

On the other hand, some Pokémon might use some more variety. Sigilyph can do something different from Cosmic Power/Stored Power/Roost/Psycho Shift. That's a guaranteed SET, 100%. I also support less Screens on everything that gets screen. Primarina, Bronzong, Meganium... they're Screens (or even just 1 screen) a good majority of the times.

Likewise, guaranteed abilities would also be nice. I just got my last Hyper Cutter Gligar (Immunity is way better). Guaranteed abilities seem to be a thing already: Poison Heal Gliscor, Thick Fat Mamoswine/Snorlax, Drizzle and Drought on who gets them, etc.

Guaranteed items also seem to be a thing. Does every Victini ever need to be AV? I mean, it's OK(...ish) but Band, Scarf, even Flame Plate would be fine. On the other hand, Leftovers Deoxys-N/Greninja )and my old nemesis, Life Orb Bronzong) we can get rid of.

P.S. Super minor, but can maybe Unown use some Hidden Power other than Psychic? I know STAB and all, but it's basically inviting anything Psychic immune/resistant to set up in your face. At least different HP would give it a bit of surprise effect.
 

duck

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...
- Roost on Gligar
- In general recovery moves on anything defensively focused (Slowbro, Hippowdon...)
...
On the other hand, some Pokémon might use some more variety. Sigilyph can do something different from Cosmic Power/Stored Power/Roost/Psycho Shift. That's a guaranteed SET, 100%. I also support less Screens on everything that gets screen. Primarina, Bronzong, Meganium... they're Screens (or even just 1 screen) a good majority of the times.

Likewise, guaranteed abilities would also be nice. I just got my last Hyper Cutter Gligar (Immunity is way better). Guaranteed abilities seem to be a thing already: Poison Heal Gliscor, Thick Fat Mamoswine/Snorlax, Drizzle and Drought on who gets them, etc.

Guaranteed items also seem to be a thing. Does every Victini ever need to be AV? I mean, it's OK(...ish) but Band, Scarf, even Flame Plate would be fine. On the other hand, Leftovers Deoxys-N/Greninja )and my old nemesis, Life Orb Bronzong) we can get rid of.

P.S. Super minor, but can maybe Unown use some Hidden Power other than Psychic? I know STAB and all, but it's basically inviting anything Psychic immune/resistant to set up in your face. At least different HP would give it a bit of surprise effect.
Recovery on recovery mons has always been a huge problem for me. Swlobros can kinda make it up with regen, as well as other regen mons, but Gligar, Lugia and stuff like that needs it. I agree.

For screen recently, some user like primarina had their screens removed. Sigilyph it's a forced set like air baloon rotom fan, and even if the majority of user are on board to changing it or at least not make it the only set, I think they won't be changed for "old meme" reasons.

Hyper cutter Gligar is worse than Immunity, but the problem is the abilities have like a rank score so altering that mean it can save potentially gligar but fuck up other mons. You percieve Drizzle is guaranteeded but it is because it has a much hight score than water absorb, so it will always be picked.

Items are based on moves of the sets. Ex: 4 mixed moves = Expert belt or av. Bulkmons means leftovers or av ==> victini always av or something like that. That is also the case for deo N with the amazing leftovers, because 2 status moves can put it in a "support" sets therefore giving him lefties.
I'm just explaining how does it work, it doesn't mean i agree on it.
On that note, slower mon with set up moves (like curse muk or bu hariyama) shouldn't have life orb, because they have a very limited chance to abuse it, expecially when having no priority or just non stab priority.
Life orb bad stuff, like life orb quagsire (lol flames), lo bronzong, lumineon works a little like that. 2 or 3 moves may give the possibility of life orb. The whole concept is kinda bugged.
(Also watchog with super fang may have life orb as well and that is hilarious, not because life orb watchog is shit itself because analytic return life orb hits hard, but for the super fang life orb recoil)

Finally unown is bad with every hp. I get your surprise effect but I don't think it will help that much, but that is my opinion.
 
Recovery on recovery mons has always been a huge problem for me. Swlobros can kinda make it up with regen, as well as other regen mons, but Gligar, Lugia and stuff like that needs it. I agree.

For screen recently, some user like primarina had their screens removed. Sigilyph it's a forced set like air baloon rotom fan, and even if the majority of user are on board to changing it or at least not make it the only set, I think they won't be changed for "old meme" reasons.

Hyper cutter Gligar is worse than Immunity, but the problem is the abilities have like a rank score so altering that mean it can save potentially gligar but fuck up other mons. You percieve Drizzle is guaranteeded but it is because it has a much hight score than water absorb, so it will always be picked.

Items are based on moves of the sets. Ex: 4 mixed moves = Expert belt or av. Bulkmons means leftovers or av ==> victini always av or something like that. That is also the case for deo N with the amazing leftovers, because 2 status moves can put it in a "support" sets therefore giving him lefties.
I'm just explaining how does it work, it doesn't mean i agree on it.
On that note, slower mon with set up moves (like curse muk or bu hariyama) shouldn't have life orb, because they have a very limited chance to abuse it, expecially when having no priority or just non stab priority.
Life orb bad stuff, like life orb quagsire (lol flames), lo bronzong, lumineon works a little like that. 2 or 3 moves may give the possibility of life orb. The whole concept is kinda bugged.
(Also watchog with super fang may have life orb as well and that is hilarious, not because life orb watchog is shit itself because analytic return life orb hits hard, but for the super fang life orb recoil)

Finally unown is bad with every hp. I get your surprise effect but I don't think it will help that much, but that is my opinion.
That actually explains a lot, thank you. With these mechanics I can see why fixing those isn't as easy as it sounds.

I agree with no LO on slow setup mons, it never works well.

Of course nothing can save Unown from being terrible, but as I said, super minor stuff.
 
Another mon which should never have a life orb is Gale Wings Smogonbird. Because Gale Wings only works as long as Talonflame is at full HP, the life otb recoil means that you have only one chance to abuse Gale Wings, no matter what move it uses. It should have a Flyinium Z for the priority SSS, another option would be a Flying Gem or no item for a set with Acrobatics.

Here's a replay froma randbat where my Talonflame had a Life Orb: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-632423708
 
Another thing, which is important but has not been mentioned yet:
Pokemon with Belly Drum and a berry should always be EVd to an even HP number. I encountered stuff like Belly Drum eSpeed Linoone with Gluttony and an uneven HP number, so that its berry doesn't trigger after the belly drum, which makes revenge-killing much easier as it should be.
 
Can we please nerf Xerneas? Right now it is the best mon in Rands hands down and honestly makes a game uncompetitive. It should really be a lower level. Obviously, it's rands and isnt meant to be the most competitive tier but... it's stupid overpowered. Especially since there are some attempts to balance the tier with levelling and all, I feel that there should be some nerf to Xern.

I've peaked 300ish on solo ladder and 11th on dubs so I'm not a complete nub n_n
 

Adeleine

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Intentional nerfs to specific pokemon (besides removing the mega banned from Uber) is a slippery slope we're probably not willing to go down. There'd at least need to be some kind of objective cause like there is for MRay.
 

duck

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Intentional nerfs to specific pokemon (besides removing the mega banned from Uber) is a slippery slope we're probably not willing to go down. There'd at least need to be some kind of objective cause like there is for MRay.
I can agree till a certain point, but geoxern is seriously unbalanced. In gen6 random, it was nerfed in fact, and it still was one of the most powerful mons around
 

Adeleine

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I can agree till a certain point, but geoxern is seriously unbalanced. In gen6 random, it was nerfed in fact, and it still was one of the most powerful mons around
Multiple things are seriously unbalanced. Is there an objective reason we can use to isolate xern (or xern as well as others) to make sure we don't go down a wrong track?
 
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