SM OU Please help me improve my OU Team!

[LatiosGemma]

Hi! I've been using this team and having a lot of fun and wins with it, so I would like to get some of your expert advices to improve it and make it better. Please, when reading this and commenting, keep in mind that I am not a native English speaker, and that although I will do my best to communicate to the best of my abilities, I am not flawless in my English. That said, what I kind of struggle the most against are stall teams and set-up mons that break through my defensive core. I'm open to any sort of suggestion, thank you all for the help!


So, Special Defensivee Heatran is a mon that really helps the team dealing with tapu lele, especially scarf, but also specs. It resists its stabs, while also providing an amazing defensive typing for scarftana, if it's locked into smartstricke or leafblade, and it's really good against magearna, or at least some versions of it. It's meant to stop special attackers that are not specs ash greninja, and its flashfire is also very useful against the likes of Zard Y. Toxic is to break through walls, and protect is a nice way of countering mega lopunny and mega medicham's high jump kick. Lava plum is for ferro and generally to burn things, maybe a lando swtching in. Also, it's amazing when I'm able to burn a Gliscor turn 1 and that thing becomes near useless. Earth power is to deal some damage to opposing heatrans, and generally just to have coverage. Might switch that to earthquake tho, since it deals more damage to other heatrans and magearna in general.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Toxic

Up next we have my favourite mon on the team, mega latias. This set is supposed to come in on scarfed mons, or generally stuff that can't do a lot to it, set up a calm mind on the switch, and then become a problem for the enemy team, with its ability to hit almost every mon in OU for either neutral or supereffective damage. Hidden power fighting might seem weird, but I needed to hit heatran even when he used a baloon, and plus it kills ash greninja after a couple of calm minds. Barring a crit, of a physical set up sweeper (which are usually frail, and thend to die to a plus 2 ice beam), this Latias is almost unkillable. Toxic is a nuisance to this set, so I try to start setting up when the opping toxicing mon is dead, but thunder wave is also a problem, since not only does it make recover slower, but it also gives Latias a chance to stop for a turn, when it gets full parad.

Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Recover

With two walls on the team already in the form of Heatran and Mega Latias, I really needed a breaker, and I found specs Ash Greninja to suit my style really well. Surf instead of hydro because I hate missing, and being locked into a move is already an handicap in itself. Water shuriken to HOPEFULLY kill hawlucha, when it's not spedef, and also scarfed lando, and then of course dark pulse for stab and occasional flinches, when I really have no other outs. Also, I run ice beam instead of spikes because I find myself defogging hazards away way more than I find myself using them. I guess that's just one way to play. Also, Ice beam does more to ferrothorn and thornadus than surf, and it kills garchomp too. I find myself using icebeam to surpirse KO people, in general, and that usually allows me to get the Ashgreninja transformation. After that, surf is usually my go-to move.

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Surf
- Ice Beam

This boy is meant to be a physical sweeper, but he occupies the slot that I like to change, whereas the other 5 mons stay the same. I needed a physical sweeper, and I love Salamence as a mon. It has great attack and speed, but for some reason it doesn't seem to function well with the rest of the team. He also carries the z-move on the team. Stab fly is amazing on its own, and after a dragon dance boost it kills pretty much everything that doesn't resist it. Sub is to scout for moves from slower pokemon, and also for protection when causing a swap. Intimidate is used because the team doesn't have a great check against hawlucha, and in general against strong physical mons, so I figured it might help. It's also great when paired with lando's intimidate. Earthquake is obviously for coverage. Not sure about this mon tho. So please help me with this slot in the team in particular.

Salamence @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fly
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Earthquake

Ash-greninja checks, general pain to deal with, full specially defensive Magearna is really strong in my opinion. It takes hits incredibly well, switches into pretty much any special move, even some z-moves, and sometimes gets a revenge KO with either volt switch r ice beam. Fleur cannon is for stab, and focus blast is to hit incoming ferros and heatrans. When they are spdef tho, I find it hard to kill them, so I just volt out. The problem is that I always have to get the 50-50 right, if they have a lando and a heatran, between using icebeam and volt switching out. Generally love this mon tho.

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt switch
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam

Defensive landorus is the last mon on the team. With intimidate and this spread, it comes in on most physical attackers, if they don't have an ice type attack, and 252 in health allows it to live hidden power ice from most opponents. Defog is to remove hazards, earthquake is for stab and to kill magearna, mostly assault vest or non defensive variants, and knock off is to get rid of opposing eviolites, assoult vests, toxic orbs on the switch, maybe some reckless choice scarf switch ins. I thought about using a scarf lando as some more physical prowess for the team, but I would always find myself locked into a move and forced to switch out into one of my defensive pivots, so I really can't decide myself on what changes to make on this mon to make it better suit the team. He's also the designated stealth rocker for the team

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off

I'm looking forward to reading all of your suggestions and trying them out. Thanks a lot!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The first thing I'd change is a very minor optimization: Roost instead of Recover on Latias. I'm pretty sure it won't let you temporarily reap the benefits of terrains due to Levitate, but it's less likely to get blocked by Imprison. Roost + Imprison is only available to Swoobat, while Recover + Imprison is available to Sableye, Reuniclus, and Beheeyem, with Imprison actually listed under Sableye's other options in its OU analysis.

There are a few changes you could make to Salamence. The first option would be to change its ability to Moxie. This worsens your matchup against Hawlucha, but makes it a more effective sweeper. The second option would be to change Salamence to Gyarados. Gyarados may be slower, weaker, and have marginally lower physical bulk, but it is generally considered superior thanks to its higher special bulk and better typing. It also has the same abilities as Salamence, so you can still have the double Intimidate if you want.

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie / Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Earthquake / Taunt / Substitute

While Intimidate on regular Gyarados is generally considered inferior to Moxie, it does have the neat effect of making the opponent think you're running Mega Gyarados, as Intimidate is the preferred ability on the mega. The presence of Latias somewhat undermines this trick, but Scarf Latias with Healing Wish is a viable, if incredibly niche, set.

Another option would be to replace Salamence with Tapu Koko. Koko isn't nearly as effective a sweeper, but it's a more effective Hawlucha check, as it can live a +2 High Jump Kick and OHKO back with an Electric move of your choice.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 210-248 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only time an Electric move won't KO is if you go for Volt Switch against a +SpDef seed Hawlucha.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Volt Switch vs. +1 132 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha in Electric Terrain: 270-318 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LatiosGemma]

The first thing I'd change is a very minor optimization: Roost instead of Recover on Latias. I'm pretty sure it won't let you temporarily reap the benefits of terrains due to Levitate, but it's less likely to get blocked by Imprison. Roost + Imprison is only available to Swoobat, while Recover + Imprison is available to Sableye, Reuniclus, and Beheeyem, with Imprison actually listed under Sableye's other options in its OU analysis.

There are a few changes you could make to Salamence. The first option would be to change its ability to Moxie. This worsens your matchup against Hawlucha, but makes it a more effective sweeper. The second option would be to change Salamence to Gyarados. Gyarados may be slower, weaker, and have marginally lower physical bulk, but it is generally considered superior thanks to its higher special bulk and better typing. It also has the same abilities as Salamence, so you can still have the double Intimidate if you want.

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie / Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Earthquake / Taunt / Substitute

While Intimidate on regular Gyarados is generally considered inferior to Moxie, it does have the neat effect of making the opponent think you're running Mega Gyarados, as Intimidate is the preferred ability on the mega. The presence of Latias somewhat undermines this trick, but Scarf Latias with Healing Wish is a viable, if incredibly niche, set.

Another option would be to replace Salamence with Tapu Koko. Koko isn't nearly as effective a sweeper, but it's a more effective Hawlucha check, as it can live a +2 High Jump Kick and OHKO back with an Electric move of your choice.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 210-248 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only time an Electric move won't KO is if you go for Volt Switch against a +SpDef seed Hawlucha.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Volt Switch vs. +1 132 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha in Electric Terrain: 270-318 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thank you for your suggestions. I never taught of imprison but I've changed recover to roost right away.
About gyara, it was indeed an option but I found it to be kind of lacking, sometimes in speed and sometimes in attack. It never gets the chance to set up a Dragon dance. I tested it a lot and it only killed weak stuff that would have been killed by a regular attack of any other mon.
About koko. If I added him, I would have to make him physical because I am lacking physical power on the team. My Lando is very defensive. Maybe I could change it to be more offensive, so that I have room for Koko. Hawlucha does run poison jab tho, and that OHKO koko.
Any other suggestion or more specific Koko spreads, maybe a physical one or a more defensive one, to then make Lando more offensive, would be very appreciated. Thank you.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Thank you for your suggestions. I never taught of imprison but I've changed recover to roost right away.
About gyara, it was indeed an option but I found it to be kind of lacking, sometimes in speed and sometimes in attack. It never gets the chance to set up a Dragon dance. I tested it a lot and it only killed weak stuff that would have been killed by a regular attack of any other mon.
About koko. If I added him, I would have to make him physical because I am lacking physical power on the team. My Lando is very defensive. Maybe I could change it to be more offensive, so that I have room for Koko. Hawlucha does run poison jab tho, and that OHKO koko.
Any other suggestion or more specific Koko spreads, maybe a physical one or a more defensive one, to then make Lando more offensive, would be very appreciated. Thank you.

Hawlucha does occasionally run Poison Jab, but it's pretty rare. According to the most recent usage stats, about 13% of Hawlucha run Poison Jab in the 0 and 1500 weighted stats, and when you go higher into the 1695 and 1825 stats, it runs Poison Jab so infrequently that it's lumped in "other". Basically, you shouldn't be all too worried about Poison Jab from Hawlucha.

As for the Koko set, your team would probably benefit the most from the Z Wild Charge set.

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Wild Charge
- Hidden Power Ice
- Taunt
- U-turn

This set aims to lure in some of Koko's usual answers like AV Magearna, Chansey, Sp Def Jirachi, and Sp Def Heatran, and should be played more as a support Pokemon that paves the way for its teammates, instead of acting as an independent sweeper. Your two main sweepers (Latias and Greninja, especially Latias) really appreciate those Pokemon being weakened or removed.

For a more in-depth explanation of the set, check out Koko's OU analysis, which I mostly just paraphrased.

Z Wild Charge calcs

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 348-411 (95.8 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 520-613 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 393-463 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 375-442 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[LatiosGemma]

Hawlucha does occasionally run Poison Jab, but it's pretty rare. According to the most recent usage stats, about 13% of Hawlucha run Poison Jab in the 0 and 1500 weighted stats, and when you go higher into the 1695 and 1825 stats, it runs Poison Jab so infrequently that it's lumped in "other". Basically, you shouldn't be all too worried about Poison Jab from Hawlucha.

As for the Koko set, your team would probably benefit the most from the Z Wild Charge set.

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Wild Charge
- Hidden Power Ice
- Taunt
- U-turn

This set aims to lure in some of Koko's usual answers like AV Magearna, Chansey, Sp Def Jirachi, and Sp Def Heatran, and should be played more as a support Pokemon that paves the way for its teammates, instead of acting as an independent sweeper. Your two main sweepers (Latias and Greninja, especially Latias) really appreciate those Pokemon being weakened or removed.

For a more in-depth explanation of the set, check out Koko's OU analysis, which I mostly just paraphrased.

Z Wild Charge calcs

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 348-411 (95.8 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 520-613 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 393-463 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 375-442 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

I cannot thank you enough for this. I will most definately try this koko out since it seems so good and capable of dealing damage. I was wondering if other adjustments or changes could come to mind, so please let me know.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I cannot thank you enough for this. I will most definately try this koko out since it seems so good and capable of dealing damage. I was wondering if other adjustments or changes could come to mind, so please let me know.

The only other things I can think of is that your Heatran and Latias run much less speed than usual.

Heatran usually runs either 76 or 128 speed EVs (OU analysis recommends 76, but other sources like the OU speed tiers and the damage calc list 128). 76 lets you outspeed uninvested Rotom Wash (a strange benchmark if you ask me), while I'm not sure what 128 outspeeds (I think it might be outdated). In any case, I think you should run at least 40 speed EVs, which is enough to outspeed Adamant Mega Mawile.

Mega Latias, on the other hand, usually runs max HP and speed, with a Timid nature. This allows it to outspeed stuff like Garchomp and Kartana. This of course comes at a moderate drop in physical bulk, so I've done some calcs, and I'll leave it up to you to determine if you want speed or bulk.

List of things you outspeed with max speed but don't without investment

Mega Diancie (speed tie)
Mega Gallade (speed tie)
Non-scarf Gengar (speed tie, Scarf is Gengar's most common item, until very high ladder, going 19% -> 27% -> 38% -> 10%)
(Mega) Latios (speed tie)
(Mega) Latias (speed tie)
Non-scarf Kartana (Scarf is Kartana's most common item, with the chances going 47% -> 52% -> 48% -> 37%)
Alolan Ninetales
Non-scarf Keldeo (Scarf is fairly uncommon, with the chances going 18% -> 19% -> 18% -> 10%)
Non-scarf Terrakion (Chances of Scarf: 31% -> 28% -> 19% -> 9%)
Blacephalon without a speed boost (you can't touch Blacephalon anyway, so you really shouldn't stay in)
Mega Pinsir
Mega Sharpedo without a speed boost
Hawlucha if it loses its Unburden
Non-scarf Garchomp (Chances of Scarf: 15% -> 16% -> 15% -> Other)
Thunderous-T without a speed boost (Chances of Scarf: 16% -> 17% -> 15% -> 16%, chances of Agility: 18% -> 19% -> 17% -> 23%)
Mega Charizard X before a Dragon Dance
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Medicham
Manaphy without a speed boost (Chances of Rain Dance: 22% -> 24% -> 19% -> Other)
Salamence before a Dragon Dance
Victini without a speed boost (you can't touch Victini anyway)
Volcarona without a speed boost (can't touch anyway)
Non-scarf Hydreigon (Scarf is the most common item in 0 and 1500, chance of scarf: 30% -> 29% -> 12% -> 9%)
Mimikyu (has Shadow Sneak, which 2HKOs regardless)
Mew without a speed boost (Offensive Mew rarely carries a move that can touch Latias)
Gliscor running enough Speed investment (Chances are difficult to determine because half the spreads are classified as "other")
(Black) Kyurem
Non-scarf Tapu Lele (32% -> 33% -> 27% -> 26%)
Mega Garchomp
Scarf Alolan Golem
Offensive non-scarf Landorus-T and probably some speedy defensive ones (Half the spreads are classified as "other")
Standard Moltres
Excadrill outside of sand
Kommo-o without a speed boost
Nidoking
(Mega) Gyarados before a Dragon Dance
Non-scarf Hoopa-U (Scarf is rare)
Mamoswine
Tapu Fini
Offensive Heatran
Kingdra outside of rain
Qwilfish outside of rain (not sure why this guy's still listed on the speed tiers)
Bisharp (situation is complicated by Sucker Punch)
Mega Swampert outside of rain
Non-scarf Volcanion (scarf is rare)
Dragonite before a Dragon Dance

Calcs

Notable hits can you avoid by investing in speed:

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 249-293 (68.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 396-468 (108.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 288-340 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 373-439 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 355-418 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 174-206 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Toxic is bad

0 SpA Kommo-o Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Notable hits you tank better by investing in bulk (only if you can retaliate):

252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 116-138 (31.8 - 37.9%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 416-492 (114.2 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 375-442 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 409-483 (112.3 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LatiosGemma]

The only other things I can think of is that your Heatran and Latias run much less speed than usual.

Heatran usually runs either 76 or 128 speed EVs (OU analysis recommends 76, but other sources like the OU speed tiers and the damage calc list 128). 76 lets you outspeed uninvested Rotom Wash (a strange benchmark if you ask me), while I'm not sure what 128 outspeeds (I think it might be outdated). In any case, I think you should run at least 40 speed EVs, which is enough to outspeed Adamant Mega Mawile.

Mega Latias, on the other hand, usually runs max HP and speed, with a Timid nature. This allows it to outspeed stuff like Garchomp and Kartana. This of course comes at a moderate drop in physical bulk, so I've done some calcs, and I'll leave it up to you to determine if you want speed or bulk.

List of things you outspeed with max speed but don't without investment

Mega Diancie (speed tie)
Mega Gallade (speed tie)
Non-scarf Gengar (speed tie, Scarf is Gengar's most common item, until very high ladder, going 19% -> 27% -> 38% -> 10%)
(Mega) Latios (speed tie)
(Mega) Latias (speed tie)
Non-scarf Kartana (Scarf is Kartana's most common item, with the chances going 47% -> 52% -> 48% -> 37%)
Alolan Ninetales
Non-scarf Keldeo (Scarf is fairly uncommon, with the chances going 18% -> 19% -> 18% -> 10%)
Non-scarf Terrakion (Chances of Scarf: 31% -> 28% -> 19% -> 9%)
Blacephalon without a speed boost (you can't touch Blacephalon anyway, so you really shouldn't stay in)
Mega Pinsir
Mega Sharpedo without a speed boost
Hawlucha if it loses its Unburden
Non-scarf Garchomp (Chances of Scarf: 15% -> 16% -> 15% -> Other)
Thunderous-T without a speed boost (Chances of Scarf: 16% -> 17% -> 15% -> 16%, chances of Agility: 18% -> 19% -> 17% -> 23%)
Mega Charizard X before a Dragon Dance
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Medicham
Manaphy without a speed boost (Chances of Rain Dance: 22% -> 24% -> 19% -> Other)
Salamence before a Dragon Dance
Victini without a speed boost (you can't touch Victini anyway)
Volcarona without a speed boost (can't touch anyway)
Non-scarf Hydreigon (Scarf is the most common item in 0 and 1500, chance of scarf: 30% -> 29% -> 12% -> 9%)
Mimikyu (has Shadow Sneak, which 2HKOs regardless)
Mew without a speed boost (Offensive Mew rarely carries a move that can touch Latias)
Gliscor running enough Speed investment (Chances are difficult to determine because half the spreads are classified as "other")
(Black) Kyurem
Non-scarf Tapu Lele (32% -> 33% -> 27% -> 26%)
Mega Garchomp
Scarf Alolan Golem
Offensive non-scarf Landorus-T and probably some speedy defensive ones (Half the spreads are classified as "other")
Standard Moltres
Excadrill outside of sand
Kommo-o without a speed boost
Nidoking
(Mega) Gyarados before a Dragon Dance
Non-scarf Hoopa-U (Scarf is rare)
Mamoswine
Tapu Fini
Offensive Heatran
Kingdra outside of rain
Qwilfish outside of rain (not sure why this guy's still listed on the speed tiers)
Bisharp (situation is complicated by Sucker Punch)
Mega Swampert outside of rain
Non-scarf Volcanion (scarf is rare)
Dragonite before a Dragon Dance

Calcs

Notable hits can you avoid by investing in speed:

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 249-293 (68.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 396-468 (108.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 288-340 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 373-439 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 355-418 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 174-206 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Toxic is bad

0 SpA Kommo-o Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Notable hits you tank better by investing in bulk (only if you can retaliate):

252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 116-138 (31.8 - 37.9%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 416-492 (114.2 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 375-442 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 409-483 (112.3 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I read everything and I think you're right about latias. I thought all that defensive bulk was really making a difference, but calcs show that for common threats it's not.
Wouldn't I be lacking a physical wall then?
The eves in speed on heatran is something that I have to check, because I mostly want to be able to outspeed stuff like Magearna or mawile, so I'll look into that.
You were really specific and said a lot of useful things, I'm thankful for your help.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Wouldn't I be lacking a physical wall then?

Eh, you've got Lando, and even without investment, Latias, Magearna, and Heatran aren't exactly frail on the physical side. You should be fine.

You were really specific and said a lot of useful things, I'm thankful for your help.

 

[LatiosGemma]

Up:
I've noticed I'm really weak to tapufini and toxapex. In general, teams with regenerate and recovery are easily able to slowly but surely cheap away my team's health. Lando can't one hit or even two hit fini with this spread, and koko is just not enough when they can just go to their ground type on every wild charge. Also, hidden Power ice is not strong enough to punish a Lando switch in. What should I do? Should I change a lot more stuff?

Edit: I thought about thunderbolt on latias instead of HP fighting. What do you think?
I would love any suggestion. Also, does anybody have a good bulky offense to try in OU?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

It takes good prediction, but Tapu Koko should in theory be able to dismantle the combination of Fini/Pex + Ground type. If you predict the opponent to switch into their Ground, you should use HP Ice instead of Wild Charge. Even without any investment, HP Ice is strong enough to usually 2HKO the relevant Ground types.

Calcs

Offensive Lando:
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Lando:
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive Chomp:
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 192-228 (53.7 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Chomp:
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 192-228 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO

Gliscor:
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

 

[LatiosGemma]

I don't know why, but it seems to me that this was not the case with most of my encounters with these mons. Maybe I just got unlucky, but calcs don't lie so I will keep that in mind. The problem is that I need to predict right, and that's hard sometimes, because some people might just stay in on a koko with their spdef toxapex cause they know they might survive. That's just what I've seen in my games tho. I do understand now that it comes down to more prediction rather than team-building, so I will indeed try to keep up the testing and to predict better.
Thunderbolt over HP fighting does do more damage on neutral foes tho. Is that a better option, even tho I'm not super effective against the likes of bisharp, heatran and so on? Which of course I was before.

Team is really weak to ground, especially scarfed mold breaker excadrill, which bypasses latias levitating abilities.
That's why I was asking for a good bulky offense, I wanna try new, already tested teams. As always, thanx a lot for your kind help.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The problem is that I need to predict right, and that's hard sometimes, because some people might just stay in on a koko with their spdef toxapex cause they know they might survive.

A good way to get a read on your opponent's habits is to use U-turn the first few times Koko is up against a Water type.

Thunderbolt over HP fighting does do more damage on neutral foes tho. Is that a better option, even tho I'm not super effective against the likes of bisharp, heatran and so on?

Thunderbolt is a decent option, as it gives you a better matchup against the likes of Tapu Fini and Celesteela, while still hitting Heatran for neutral damage. Psyshock is also a good option. It makes your matchup against Tyrantitar and Steels a bit worse, but you already have ways of dealing with those, like Lando, Greninja, Heatran, and Koko. In return, it improves your matchup against special walls, in particular Toxapex and Chansey.

Team is really weak to ground, especially scarfed mold breaker excadrill, which bypasses latias levitating abilities.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that with Koko, half the mons on your team are weak to Ground. Still, Latias can handle most of them with Levitate and Ice Beam, while Landorus can handle most Excadrill variants. The one variant Lando struggles to deal with is Steelium-Z, as +1 (Swords Dance + Intimidate) Corkscrew Crash deals a ton of damage.

calc

+1 252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 355-418 (92.9 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Normal Greninja's Water Shuriken will deal a lot of damage in return, but needs 4 hits to actually OHKO.

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (4 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 360-432 (99.4 - 119.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 270-324 (74.5 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Water Shuriken doesn't KO, Latias can usually come in and KO Drill, but it needs HP Fighting to guarantee the KO if Water Shuriken only hit twice. Additionally, if it's running max speed, you'll be taking a lot of damage from Iron Head.

calcs

0 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 123-145 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Latias-Mega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 164-194 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 229-271 (62.9 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Latias-Mega: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

However, that's just the worst-case scenario, and it assumes that Excadrill got the opportunity to set up a Swords Dance and is indeed Steelium-Z. There are a few things that make this scenario somewhat unlikely. The first is just pure statistics: Steelium-Z is rare. No matter where you are on the ladder, only about 16% of Excadrills are holding a Steelium-Z. The second is that it's pretty easy to tell if an Excadrill is potentially Steelium-Z, as they're probably going to be paired with a Tyranitar. I don't have statistics for this, but from I know of the metagame, I'm pretty sure Steelium-Z and Swords Dance are most popular on Sand Rush Excadrill, and you probably won't see Steelium-Z without Swords Dance.

As for how to prevent a possible Steelium Excadrill from setting up, lure it in with Tapu Koko, then U-turn out into Lando as Drill switches in.

 

[LatiosGemma]

So, I think that your advice about analyzing how my opponent handles water vs electric types matchups is a great tool that I will try to use. I find myself lacking a scarfer tho, so I was thinking if there is a spread to keep landorus defensive while also giving him some more speed to work with. For example: if my green doesn't get the ash form but my opponent does, I don't have anything to outspeed or force him to use water shuriken. If I'm up against a scarfer, I need to use water shuriken and always hope it kills, because bye bye gren if it doesn't. And then I have no priority to deal with the treat, and am forced to take even more damage.


I found that max speed latias is great to kill Lando and garchomp, so I guess I'll keep it that way. I got rid of lefties on heatran and replaced it with shuca, to make his match-up against grounds a little better. Which move should I use in order to deal some damage back? Maybe magma storm instead of lava plum...

Edit: also, corescrew crash excadrill doesn't worry me. What does is scarfed earthquake, or drill in general, since I can't kill it with ice beam and it does a lot to my latias. Landorus with its current spread and item is not enough of a threat to deal with all the burden the teams expects him to carry.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

So, I think that your advice about analyzing how my opponent handles water vs electric types matchups is a great tool that I will try to use. I find myself lacking a scarfer tho, so I was thinking if there is a spread to keep landorus defensive while also giving him some more speed to work with. For example: if my green doesn't get the ash form but my opponent does, I don't have anything to outspeed or force him to use water shuriken. If I'm up against a scarfer, I need to use water shuriken and always hope it kills, because bye bye gren if it doesn't. And then I have no priority to deal with the treat, and am forced to take even more damage.


I found that max speed latias is great to kill Lando and garchomp, so I guess I'll keep it that way. I got rid of lefties on heatran and replaced it with shuca, to make his match-up against grounds a little better. Which move should I use in order to deal some damage back? Maybe magma storm instead of lava plum...

Edit: also, corescrew crash excadrill doesn't worry me. What does is scarfed earthquake, or drill in general, since I can't kill it with ice beam and it does a lot to my latias. Landorus with its current spread and item is not enough of a threat to deal with all the burden the teams expects him to carry.

I think Lava Plume is probably better on defensive Heatran. Magma Storm is better on offensive sets, and/or alongside Taunt for stallbreaking.

I'm still not sure Scarf Drill is as threatening as Steelium Drill, but I've just been working in theory while you've had actual practice with the team, so maybe you're right. In any case, you could run Scarf Landorus. 232 speed EVs with a Jolly nature is enough to outrun Scarf Drill. Even an uninvested, Earthquake OHKOs Drill, so you can dump the rest of the EVs into HP and Defense. Since Stealth Rock isn't a great move to lock yourself into, U-turn can be used in its place to make Lando serve more as a pivot than a wall, and synergizes well with Koko's and Magearna's VoltTurn. As this would leave your team without a rocker, Heatran could take up the role, though at the cost of Protect or Toxic (or Earth Power, I guess, though letting in other Heatran for free sounds like a bad idea). Defog isn't the best move to be locked into, either, but it's not as bad as Stealth Rock.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 204 HP / 72 Def / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog

Give it a shot. It won't be as bulky as before, but the speed and U-turn may prove useful.

 

[LatiosGemma]

It will surely do the job. Thanks!