Project OU Underdog

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Martin

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OP (mostly) stolen from SketchUp's ORAS thread

OU Underdog

In this thread you can talk about any pokemon you think does not get enough attention. You can talk about cool sets, cores, strategies, and much more about any pokemon, as long as they are not listed on the viability rankings. You can consider this as the Metagame Discussion for unranked pokemon, but do not forget to stick to the rules:

Rules:
  • This thread is for SM OU only. Discussion not related to OU will be deleted.
  • You can still talk about pokemon that are in the viability rankings to make a comparison, but your post should mainly be about pokemon that are not in the viability rankings.
  • Make sure you have experience with the pokemon you post about. You don't have to post replays all the time, but still make sure your post isn't just theorymonning. I am aware that with a discussion focussed on unranked pokemon, theorymonning will be more common, so any measures against it will also be more common.
  • Stick to the general rules of the forum.
Feel free to use any posting template you want, but as a guidance you can answer the following questions if you start a new discussion (of course discussions aren't limited to these questions):
  • What are the best sets for this pokemon in OU and why?
  • What types of teams does it fit on?
  • What pokemon does it compete with for a spot on teams?
  • What partners work well with it?
The key difference between this thread and Creative and Underrated Sets is that this thread is more discussion-oriented whereas the other is more contribution-oriented, so feel free to reply to posts in this thread and to discuss stuff if you think you can add anything of substance.

Sample posts from ORAS thread:
Putting these here so you can get an idea for some of the different ways people have wrote posts in the ORAS thread.

Lanturn by Seth Vilo
Roserade by Starry Blanket
Stunfisk by Martin
Poliwrath by Gastro
Cloyster by A

I will be archiving what I feel to be some of the best posts in the thread (with regards to content of the body of the post moreso than the choice of Pokemon) in the second post.
 
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Right I guess I'll kick things off here with something I played around with and has some potential in the metagame.


Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast / Sludge Wave / Toxic Spikes

Right, so Nidoqueen actually has a decent niche right now. With Tapu Koko being so common in combination with VoltTurn in general being pretty good right now, Nidoqueen is a great deterrent for the playstyle thanks to being bulky enough to tank U-Turns and obviously being immune to Volt Switch. Having the choice of hazards is great, especially with TSpikes being fairly potent right now thanks to the popularity of defensive pivots such as Mew and Tangrowth and Stealth Rock allowing you to use a more offensive Landorus set. Nidoqueen's coverage is a pain in the arse to switch in to, and with the chief specially defensive mons being AV Tangrowth or Magearna, a lot of teams are unprepared for this. Zapdos' 3 attacks set is incredibly annoying to face right now too and Nidoqueen is a great stop to this.

The spread is fairly self explanatory, with the speed being adaptable to your teams needs but I prefer 48 due to it outspeeding Max/Adamant Mega Mawile, Heatran and Adamant Marowak-Alola for example. I would recommend going up to 56 if you're running Fire Blast though in order to allow you to outspeed Celesteela. The remaining HP works out quite nicely as it allows you to avoid the 2HKO from Mega Manectric, basically avoiding it from Koko and other calcs which I will show in a bit.

While this definitely has its niches, it's sometimes hard to justify its use over Nidoking, but in terms of an early game hazard setter and Volt Switch deterrent, I would argue it outclasses its counterpart marginally. Of course, if you're looking for a rocker with greater offensive presence and breaking potential then stick with King. It also unfortunately matches up relatively poorly against hazard setters; Tapu Fini has recently started to run water coverage more due to the rise of Heatran which hurts Nidoqueen slightly, while the likes of Latios, Excadrill and Mew can threaten it out with their STABs.

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 147-174 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leech Seed damage
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 221-263 (55.5 - 66%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 208 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 120-142 (32.1 - 38%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 278-328 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 208 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 159-187 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 208 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 154-182 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 208 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 163-193 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 221-265 (60.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 335-398 (111.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 208 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 226-266 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 162-191 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 103-123 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 

Roserade @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Synthesis

Roserade, despite being in the depths of RU, actually has a relatively decent niche in OU, being one of the only Pokemon capable of dealing with Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Koko (not running Brave Bird) at the same time, while also being able to handle Tangrowth and several other Pokemon. 125 Special Attack isn't anything to scoff at, and thanks to Technician its Hidden Power attacks are boosted to 90 Base Power, allowing it in some cases to serve as a shaky check to Lando-T, M-Scizor and a few others depending on the Hidden Power you run (alternatively you could run Hidden Power Fighting in conjunction with Shadow Ball for completely unresisted coverage). Sludge Bomb will be your main STAB of choice, easily outspeeding Tapu Bulu and Tapu Fini and nailing an OHKO and a 2HKO (OHKO with Rocks and still a possible OHKO without Rocks) on each of them respectively, while you resist / double resist most of Bulu and Fini's attack options (Fini never runs Ice Beam, let's be real here). Tapu Koko outspeeds, but unless it's running Brave Bird it's not going to be doing much damage to Roserade. Alternatively instead of running Shadow Ball in one of the slots, you could run Synthesis for longevity. Item depends on whether or not you're running either Leaf Storm or Giga Drain. Here's some calcs for you.

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 780-920 (277.5 - 327.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 299-354 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 471-556 (167.6 - 197.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade in Electric Terrain: 102-121 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Does more than HP Ice)
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 47-56 (18 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade in Grassy Terrain: 172-202 (65.9 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (Meaning it can come in and always outspeed afterwords with an assured OHKO regardless of what your Bulu build is.

Also, some other relevant calculations

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 268-320 (66.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 442-520 (128.8 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Roserade Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 598-707 (187.4 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'd also like to mention it gets access to a few other nifty moves such as Dazzling Gleam, Extrasensory, Sleep Powder, Spikes, Stun Spore, Sweet Kiss, Toxic Spikes, and Weather Ball if you're running this on a Weather team. I'm just saying, give Roserade a shot. It's definitely got its uses in OU.

Mod edit: wayyyy too many slashes. I cut down on them
 
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Well, since this is all about underdogs, let me talk about the original dog, my boi Arcanine:


Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

So you may be wondering why exactly someone would use SpDef Arcanine, well in the first place, it beats many trending threats in the SM OU Metagame, such as Calm Mind Shift Gear (or CMSG for short) Magearna, Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Mawile and Icium Z Kyu-B. Thanks to Intimidate, decent bulk and reliable recovery it can act as a hard check to all Pokemon listed in the calcs below. It is quite similar to Zapdos in a way, it has average natural bulk, so not really suited for a wall, but its defensive typing is just so unexplored that most Wallbreakers in the tier actually fail to break past it.

Okay, now let's talk a bit about its moves: Flare Blitz is preferred over Flamethrower since not only Arcanine has naturally a higher Attack stat, but also Quiver Dance Volcarona, Calm Mind Magearna and Calm Mind Mega Zam could be a little more troublesome to reliably check, the recoil can be a little bit painful in some cases, though. Extreme Speed is quite powerful and picks off weakened foes, specially since without Attack investment many of the Pokemon it checks are barely OHKOed, hence the need for Speed to pick them off. Wisp and Morning Sun are obvious. Also, the spread is pretty basic, but its honestly the best combo of Defense and Special Defense as evidenced by the calculations.

Looking for teammates? Hazard removal is necessary, if you take a look at the calcs, about half of the 3HKOes turn into 2HKOes with Stealth Rock or a couple of Spikes, Mew, Fini and Zapdos can turn out to be great teammates. Also having partners weak to Volcarona / Zard Y / Magearna is no big deal, as Canine can reliable check them.

I don't have any replays or anything right now, so I'll wrap this up with the calcs (warning, there are a hell of a lot of them, I WARNED YOU!!). HF using Arcanine btw :)
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 89-105 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine in Sun: 130-153 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 4 Atk Charizard-Mega-Y Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 128-151 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 174-205 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 117-138 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 126-150 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 11.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 141-166 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 175-207 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 147-174 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 63% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 172-203 (44.9 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 168-198 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 110-130 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 115-136 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 234-276 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine in Grassy Terrain: 203-239 (53 - 62.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine in Electric Terrain: 178-211 (46.4 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 193-228 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 170-200 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 199-235 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 89-105 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
*Blitz into Speed does 92.5% min
 


Araquanid @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Liquidation
- Scald
- Leech Life
- Toxic / Power Split

Wait, hear me out.

This is something I started playing around with because I'm a memelord I was having trouble with Volcarona and Zard-Y's omnipresence, and it's actually... Good. Really good. Water Bubble is one of the most broken-ass Abilities in the game, and in a meta overrun by powerful Fire-types and Lando-T, this unassuming little spider can wreck face.

Liquidation, Scald and Waterium Z are all obvious, taking full advantage of Water Bubble to drop both physical and special nukes. Leech Life, while comparatively weak, provides decent recovery, snacking on bulky Psychics and Grasses and 2HKOing Ash Greninja. The last move cripples switch-ins, with Toxic being Toxic and Power Split acting as a pseudo-Memento, working especially well with the lack of offensive investment. It's admittedly gimmicky, but it's kind of hilarious to - for one example I wish I'd saved - catch a Mega Gyarados on the switch and sweep with Water Bubble Liquidations off the equivalent of a Base 128 Attack. The spread simply maximises bulk on both sides of the spectrum while giving any stray Download Porys a useless Attack boost; its Water STABs hit so fuckdiculously hard that offensive investment isn't really necessary.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Water Bubble Araquanid in Sun: 121-144 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 168-196 (56.5 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 312-372 (105 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Araquanid: 78-92 (23 - 27.1%) -- 50.7% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Araquanid: 117-138 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Araquanid: 226-266 (66.6 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 388-460 (124.7 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Heatran Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Araquanid: 159-188 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 264-312 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Araquanid: 169-201 (49.8 - 59.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 256-304 (98 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 256-304 (79.2 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Araquanid: 132-156 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Araquanid: 198-234 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 126-150 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 236-278 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Araquanid: 202-238 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 240-288 (75.2 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Scald vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 232-280 (60.8 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 468-552 (122.8 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for team options, its best partner is easily Mold Breaker Excadrill; not only do the two have flawless defensive synergy, but Exca provides reliable hazard control, which is always necessary for a Rocks-weak tank. All in all, don't sleep on the spider.
 
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Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Well, since this is all about underdogs, let me talk about the original dog, my boi Arcanine:


Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

So you may be wondering why exactly someone would use SpDef Arcanine, well in the first place, it beats many trending threats in the SM OU Metagame, such as Calm Mind Shift Gear (or CMSG for short) Magearna, Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Mawile and Icium Z Kyu-B. Thanks to Intimidate, decent bulk and reliable recovery it can act as a hard check to all Pokemon listed in the calcs below. It is quite similar to Zapdos in a way, it has average natural bulk, so not really suited for a wall, but its defensive typing is just so unexplored that most Wallbreakers in the tier actually fail to break past it.

Okay, now let's talk a bit about its moves: Flare Blitz is preferred over Flamethrower since not only Arcanine has naturally a higher Attack stat, but also Quiver Dance Volcarona, Calm Mind Magearna and Calm Mind Mega Zam could be a little more troublesome to reliably check, the recoil can be a little bit painful in some cases, though. Extreme Speed is quite powerful and picks off weakened foes, specially since without Attack investment many of the Pokemon it checks are barely OHKOed, hence the need for Speed to pick them off. Wisp and Morning Sun are obvious. Also, the spread is pretty basic, but its honestly the best combo of Defense and Special Defense as evidenced by the calculations.

Looking for teammates? Hazard removal is necessary, if you take a look at the calcs, about half of the 3HKOes turn into 2HKOes with Stealth Rock or a couple of Spikes, Mew, Fini and Zapdos can turn out to be great teammates. Also having partners weak to Volcarona / Zard Y / Magearna is no big deal, as Canine can reliable check them.

I don't have any replays or anything right now, so I'll wrap this up with the calcs (warning, there are a hell of a lot of them, I WARNED YOU!!). HF using Arcanine btw :)
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 89-105 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine in Sun: 130-153 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 4 Atk Charizard-Mega-Y Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 128-151 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 174-205 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 117-138 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 126-150 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 11.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 141-166 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 175-207 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 147-174 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 63% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 172-203 (44.9 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 168-198 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 110-130 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 115-136 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 234-276 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine in Grassy Terrain: 203-239 (53 - 62.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine in Electric Terrain: 178-211 (46.4 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 193-228 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Arcanine: 170-200 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 199-235 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 89-105 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
*Blitz into Speed does 92.5% min
If we're gonna talk about Arcanine, I remember one of the big things that it had going for it last gen came from its ability to function as one of the more consistent defensive stops to Mega Mawile in the game with a physically defensive set. Between Intimidate, decent all-around bulk, and its pure Fire typing, it can very consistently switch in on anything that Mega Mawile can carry, unlike Heatran it doesn't just die when switching in on variants which run Focus Punch, and unlike both Tran and Lando-T, access to reliable recovery does wonders for not being worn down by this thing; it can punish people who try to hinder its healing with Tyranitar by crippling them with Close Combat, and even if it lacks CC (which IDT it should in the current metagame) it pairs very well with Dugtrio due to the more balanced nature of the types of teams it fits on, with Duggy being able to trap and remove it so that Arcanaine can regain its easy healing later on to continue defensively checking Mawile for as long as it is impractical to go for a Duggy trap on it.


Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

The listed EV spread allows Arcanine to outrun timid Heatran and KO it with Close Combat, which also serves a variety of other purposes including outrunning jolly Tapu Bulu and KOing it with Flare Blitz, forcing jolly Bisharp to use Sucker Punch if it wants to stay in on Arcanine, and outrunning jolly Tyranitar that switch in on its Blitz, Wisp, or Morning Sun, allowing Arcanine to KO them with Close Combat. Beyond just defensively countering all Mawile variants, Arcanine has a lot of generally really useful traits defensively, including its ability to take on any Bulu lacking jolly Continental Crush (which needs to be at +2 to OHKO and can be scouted by partnered Rock-type reisists like Ferrothorn, Magearna etc.), taking on non-Electrium CM+SG Magearna if it isn't weakened too much, it can take on non-HP Ground Volca nicely as long as it is healthy. More specially defensive variants are also an option if you don't mind being 1-shotted by jolly Continental Crush after Stealth Rock damage, although I'm sure that there is a middle-ground variant which aims to balance its ability to check stuff at the cost of guaranteed consistency on both sides.

The big thing about Arcanine is that, a lot of the time, a big part of its niche comes from compressing roles that practically be distributed across multiple team slots. While counters to Mega Mawile are certainly few and far between, you can generally get away with two or three checks to it on bulkier teams or even by running something like Eject Button Pex/Mola+Sub Groundium Dugtrio to remove it Bulu can be covered or pressured by running things like TSpikes/multiple Toxic users/Toxic Duggy etc. In fact, a lot of ___+Duggy cores are able to keep a lot of the things that it aims to check in a bit of a bind in general, with the key opportunity cost to using Arcanine coming from the fact that you are giving up a team slot to run a defensive SR-weak Pokemon which is trapped by Dugtrio and has 8 PP+weather dependence on its only form of recovery outside of Leftovers. You need a very good reason to use this Pokemon on any serious team, and it needs a lot of support to function consistently throughout the match to the point that it usually isn't worth running.
 
So here is a mon that I have been using that has been surprisingly effective.

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge / Bulldoze

With Fire being such a great offensive typing atm, Banded Entei actually finds a way to be a neat Pokémon in OU. Not only is Entei unique as a physical Fire type breaker, Entei also has a spammable move in Sacred Fire. Sacred Fire has good accuracy, great power backed with CB, and a 50% burn rate. This means that many Pokémon that may want to take hits from Entei like Defensive Lando, Ttar, Zygarde, and Garchomp all cannot come in safely because of Sacred Fire's burn chance, making this mon a nuisance for teams to switch into at times. Entei also boasts a form of priority in Espeed, which is nice for revenge killing certain faster Pokémon like Gren, or potentially for cleaning up late game. Flare Blitz is there for the extra power when Sacred Fire doesn't do the job. It also has more PP than Sacred Fire in-case you need to preserve Sacred Fire PP. Stone Edge is the option I prefer as it hits Pelipper, Mantine, and Zard X. Bulldoze is an option to kill Heatran that may want to get Flash Fire boosts off of a Sacred Fire/Blitz. Entei can take advantage of popular Pokémon in the meta such as Mew, Ferrothorn, Bulu, Clefable, and AV Mage, and use them all to fire off free CB fire attacks. Also, many defensive cores consisting of Mew + Celes + Tang will get shredded by Entei. Overall, Banded Entei is a really hard hitting and unique breaker in the OU tier.

Banded Entei is really the only set Entei should ever be using imo, as it gives a crucial boost to its base 115 Attack. Entei fits onto bulky offense/offense teams that appreciate its great breaking power. Entei has to compete with other strong physical breakers in general as it is hard to fit onto teams. Here are some good teammates for Entei:
Hazard Removal is crucial for Entei, as it is weak to rocks and is affected by spikes and tspikes.

Entei loves duggy support, as duggy traps and removes Pokémon that annoy Entei like Toxapex, Heatran, and Ttar (though ttar has to fear a sacred fire burn)

Pokémon with Volt Switch and U Turn really help Entei as they can get Entei in for free potentially.

Late game cleaners in general really appreciates Entei's breaking power.

Here are some calcs to show Entei's breaking capabilities.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 225-266 (75.7 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 327-385 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mantine: 146-172 (39 - 45.9%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 135-159 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 182-215 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 208-246 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 211-250 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Bulldoze vs. 232 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 376-444 (98.6 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Pelipper: 248-294 (76.7 - 91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Unfortunately, I am terrible at remembering to save replays, so I only have one saved, and its not a full game. Regardless, here it is.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-607182446

(also sorry for the lower ladder game, I tilted and lost like 10 straight)

Overall, I really enjoy using Entei in OU, as it is a unique breaker that is hard to switch in to at times. I highly recommend you give this thing a try. Enjoy :]
 

p2

Banned deucer.
speaking of fire types

CB DARM (Darmanitan) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk

I think darms more effective in terms of being a nuke everything breaker as opposed to entei, faces a ton of competition from victini but blitz is actually spammable compares to vcreate so you can just constantly dmg things like defensive lando instead of v-creating once and then getting outsped and then being forced to forfeit all momentum as lando now gets free sr or a free eq/uturn, theres not much in terms of fire resists that beat darm anyway so if you pair w/ lots of hazards, its gonna be in a position where it can 2hko alomomola of all things with blitz, granted its easier said than done. very fun mon to use regardless

CB DARM
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Please don't delete this post, it is serious! Here comes my soul, the spirit of Hail, Icy Rock Abomasnow!



KTUT (Abomasnow) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Base Stats
HP 90
Attack 92
Defense 75
Sp. Atk. 92
Sp.Def. 85
Speed 60


Intro
Ok you are going to say I'm crazy. Wait! Abomasnow has a niche in OU! At first glance it has a terrible typing, poor stats and isn't a threat. Well! I love using hailstall (I've been playing hailstall in SM OU non stop and got to 89% gxe in ORAS OU with two hail quickstalls). So take this seriously please!


Its role
Why Icy rock Abomasnow>Mega Abo? Because Mega Abo is selfish.
...
I mean, it has only 5 turns of hail, so his team doesn't benefit from the hail. It's like calling a scarf pelipper a rain team: NO! It's barely semirain, you can't rely on the weather.

So with my abomasnow (that I always lead with), you have 8 turns of hail. What for? As long as hail falls, you can switch mons, recover, roost, softboil and people can't say you are doing nothing: meanwhile, your opponent slowly loses its HP.


What playstyles does it fit on
Balance needs some offensive power and is often fast paced, so you had better have a phonecall with fellow -Snow and use Mega Abo and spam blizzard (but the hail ends very quickly, I don't like this). However, in a very defensive team, you can take advantage of this to wear your opponent down, it also helps ppstalling MegaSableye, Chansey.. Stuff like magearna hate taking hail damage too. Don't be fooled: Abomasnow is a support pokemon and shouldn't be used as a tapu koko counter or tapu fini counter: it is a check, but its recovery and bulk isn't that great as you can see. However it is a great check/counter to Zygarde, hard counters Manaphy (which is a rare but terrifying nightmare for stall teams). It's also an emergency check to SD garchomp, dragonite, thundurus, curse gastrodon (lol), CM taunt tapu fini, and is really, really welcome versus Rain+Specs Kingdra when your waterresist is toxapex for exemple.
-Snow's SM OU MegaAbo team: Snow's interview


Competition for its spot
There isn't!! And that's why it is unique, absolutely unique. Why? Because of its typing and movepool. First of all it is the only true hailsetter (nineteales vanilluxe and aurorus are just opportunists with their abilities -.-). Anyway, you only have one Snow Warning user able to take hits: abo! Thanks to its grass type, it takes on water, ground, dragon mons; its good attack stat allows it to use Ice Shard very effectively; and last but not least, it has Leech Seed which is my favourite form of active recovery.
Set: max atk so as to hit as hard as possible and stop manaphy dragonite garchomp tapufini easily. Max spdef is an option but the lack of power led me to dozens of defeats with it. Adamant woodhammer does a ton of damage to Sableye Mega and Chansey too.

Manaphy:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS
252+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 338-402 (98.8 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Zygarde:
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
VS
252+ Atk Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 196-232 (54.7 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Sableye Mega:
252+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

Dragonite:
252+ Atk Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 240-288 (74.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Z LandorusT:
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
VS
252+ Atk Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 252-300 (78.9 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Tapu Koko:
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow in Electric Terrain: 123-144 (32.1 - 37.5%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO
VS
252+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage


Best partners
Top1: Skarmory
Access to defog, ground immunity and spikes allow it to both block rocks from the topOu rocks user, Landorus, so Abomasnow can come easily. It eats rock and fighting moves easily, and takes about 4% from uturn that people spam against abomasnow. Spikes+Hail is a nightmare (for the opponent !_! )

Top2: Clefable
Clefable under hail is like a joke: you recover health with MAgicGuard+Leftovers while your opponent (say Ferrothorn) can't heal and can't leech seed, use wow or toxic. Clefable is the key to win a hailstall battle!

Top3: KyuremB/Kyurem
That thing is a monster under hail. Blizzard is cool but has 8pp, however it benefits from the hail very differently. With hail active, magearna, scizor, ferrothorn, chansey have a lot of trouble taking its hits (hail damage). In additon ground types are bad in hail teams and kyurem is a great Boltbeam absorber. But the funniest is: dugtrio can't counter kyuremB under the hail (bye 1% focus sash+reversal ) so you just have to bring Icy Rock Abomasnow and start spamming ice beams and outrages vs stall teams!


Replays (1800 to 1900 ranked battles)
Everyting I said is shown in this stall battle : How to win a stall battle with Hail
Replay showing Ktut-Rex (SubRoost Kyurem) quickly stalling the opponent under the hail lategame : Ktut-Rex


I hope you enjoyed my post, I know nobody will ever use Icy Rock Abomasnow because it is extremely hard to use it, but it deserves this, because Hail Stall has once existed in gen4 and, at least with me, lives on. Here is the post you deserve so much, my fellow Abo :3
 
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Choice Specs Empoleon.

Empoleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpA / 16 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Flash Cannon
- Scald
- Ice Beam/HP Fire

I mean.... why is this good at all? Why is Empoleon good in this metagame? Well it's a number of reasons. Empoleon's exclusive typing is one of the only type combinations that resists Hydro Pump, Hidden Power Fire, Ice Beam, Extrasensory, Gunk Shot, and U-turn. Sound like any Pokemon would carry all of these? You guessed it, Greninja's presence has declined a little bit it seems in favor of pure bulky pokemon like Magearna and Celesteela, but Empoleon can safely say that it resists all of its moves save for the Dark Pulse, making it easily the best Protean Greninja switch in.

Generally speaking, while on the field, Empoleon can wall break very hard with Choice Specs Flash Cannon and Scald, which easily 2hko's offensive Magearna. Ice Beam on the other hand OHKO's Latios after Stealth Rocks, 2HKOs AV Tangrowth cleanly. This Pokemon also has a good matchup against AV Magearna, which is 4HKO'd by the noncommittal Scald, which is highly spammable. Hydro Pump on the other hand Easily 2HKos Mew, which has to spam Roost and hope for a miss in order to live 4 turns of it. The only real stop to this thing is Chansey, Toxapex, and Ferrothorn if not opting for HP Fire.

Why it is not used is understandable: It's weak to a bunch of threats in the Metagame like Tapu Koko, Gigavolt Havoc Magearna, Focus Blast on Tapu Lele, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, and Dugtrio to name a few. It has its weaknesses, for sure. But let's not forget that it hosts 11 resistances and 1 immunity, maning that while it cannot take all these Pokemon all at once, its plethora of resistances allow it for tactical switch ins to Choice'd moves and force the opponent into using risky situations where they must attack with powerful coverage lest they be KO'd themselves (ie. HJK on Medicham when you may carry a Ghost type, wasting Magearna's Z move, forcing a Choice Specs Focus Blast on Tapu Lele).

This Pokemon is the ultimate bait and switch tactical Pokemon. It's not to be underestimated in its ability to find itself switching into a move that was otherwise thought to be powerful, and then forcing the opponent into a sticky situation. And if mispredicted, this Pokemon will punish you.
 
I realy like this idea and the thread so far, so I wanted to post something I came up with:



Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Seed Flare/Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Earth Power

I was looking for an alternative for Tangrowth, since I don't like that but it's kinda necessary to not auto loose to Lando-T, Zygarde, Greninja etc.

The most notable advantage over Tangrowth is Natural Cure, so Toxic Banded Zygarde is not a problem anymore. Same goes for Scalding Mons like Keldeo or Toxapex with burns. Synthesis provides reliable recovery and is not so heavily pressured by stacked Spikes and Stealth Rocks like Regenerator. Earth Power has pretty much the same usage as EQ on Tangrwoth, but Shaymin is able to 1v1 SG Magearna (without CM). Leech Seed in general is quite annoying to deal with and helps to chip at everything (except grass types of course^^). The last advantage over Tangrowth imo is that Shaymin is infinitly cuter :)
Disadvatages are loosing Knock Off utility and HP Fire/Ice coverage and that Shaymin is slower to play, since Synthesis needs an own turn while Regenerator doesn't. Which one is truly better depends on the situation.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this set :)
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
I realy like this idea and the thread so far, so I wanted to post something I came up with:



Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Seed Flare/Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Earth Power

I was looking for an alternative for Tangrowth, since I don't like that but it's kinda necessary to not auto loose to Lando-T, Zygarde, Greninja etc.

The most notable advantage over Tangrowth is Natural Cure, so Toxic Banded Zygarde is not a problem anymore. Same goes for Scalding Mons like Keldeo or Toxapex with burns. Synthesis provides reliable recovery and is not so heavily pressured by stacked Spikes and Stealth Rocks like Regenerator. Earth Power has pretty much the same usage as EQ on Tangrwoth, but Shaymin is able to 1v1 SG Magearna (without CM). Leech Seed in general is quite annoying to deal with and helps to chip at everything (except grass types of course^^). The last advantage over Tangrowth imo is that Shaymin is infinitly cuter :)
Disadvatages are loosing Knock Off utility and HP Fire/Ice coverage and that Shaymin is slower to play, since Synthesis needs an own turn while Regenerator doesn't. Which one is truly better depends on the situation.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this set :)
Wooow, I had never thought of shaymin as a ground absorber!! Natural cure is definitely awesome in a scald/wow metagame (and toxic banded zygarde): your pokemon actually beats mew, toxapex, sableye, celesteela and many other things tangrowth can't touch, plus checking/countering OU toptiers like greninja, zygarde and scarf keldeo. I totally agree with your idea, and would like to suggest a few things, which are only moveset/spread shifts depending on your playstyle:

1)if you plan to use your niche shaymin in bulky offense, Tailwind or Healing Wish would be faaaar better over synthesis, since leftovers +leech seed provide huge recovery. Tailwind shaymin+ZardX might be a scary BO core, tho gimmick, and you don't really miss something because synthesis is often pointless in a fast paced team!

2)then, you can also use shaymin with a three attacks set in offensive teams/balance, a bit like zapdos, with full speed, full HP or spAtk depending on its role. With the near-perfect coverage of seed flare, earthpower and hp fire (dragons are a pain, tho hp ice is good too) allows you to sweep slow tanks and walls, while synthesis or Rest is a nightmare for people trying to wear it down by voltswitches or uturn!

3)if you play defensively, you might give a try to SubSeed or SeedTect shaymin, shaymin being the best user of the old, cancer strategy of whimiscott in BW. Indeed, shaymin destroys clefable, ferrothorn and sableye, the biggest threats to a subseeder, via seedflare drops! So running Seed+Sub/protect, seed flare and Earthpower so as to cover all these targets, and in addition it kills heatran, which is better than subseeding it^^


Bulky support (Shaymin) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Leech Seed
- Tailwind / Healing Wish



Three attacks (Shaymin) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe or 252 spAtk
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis / Rest



Bulky Subseed (Shaymin) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute / Protect
- Leech Seed
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power


In short, Eyela's shaymin can be used over tangrowth and work better, by giving up the solid pivot ability regenerator for natural cure and leech seed shuffling: in addition shaymin is unpredictable, has great stats and beats every Leech seed user in OU which is definitely worth it for teams weak to them.

I really hope I contributed to bringing movesets ideas for your shaymin which is arguably a solid pokemon even in SM OU. I am open to any criticism! Btw, I am going to give a try to shaymin in OU (heat af) so I think the least I can do is to thank you Eyela for showing us this cool, niche underdog!


PS: tell me if I wrote too much, but I really wanted to highlight the possibilities hidden in Eyela 's short post!
 
Nice to see such a positive respond :D And don't worry, the amount of text is not a problem in the slightest ^^

I don't realy have anything to add to your suggestions: pick one that suits your team and playstyle ^^ Only point is, Seed Flare "only" has 40% chance of lowering SpDef, is 85% accurate and only has 8 PP. While it definitly beats Toxapex and Sableye with SpDef drops, it's not reliable enough against Ferrothorn. Here comes your 2nd spread into play. But i would say there is the true advantage of Shaymin over Tangrowth: adaptability and unpredictability :)
 
I realy like this idea and the thread so far, so I wanted to post something I came up with:



Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Seed Flare/Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Earth Power

I was looking for an alternative for Tangrowth, since I don't like that but it's kinda necessary to not auto loose to Lando-T, Zygarde, Greninja etc.

The most notable advantage over Tangrowth is Natural Cure, so Toxic Banded Zygarde is not a problem anymore. Same goes for Scalding Mons like Keldeo or Toxapex with burns. Synthesis provides reliable recovery and is not so heavily pressured by stacked Spikes and Stealth Rocks like Regenerator. Earth Power has pretty much the same usage as EQ on Tangrwoth, but Shaymin is able to 1v1 SG Magearna (without CM). Leech Seed in general is quite annoying to deal with and helps to chip at everything (except grass types of course^^). The last advantage over Tangrowth imo is that Shaymin is infinitly cuter :)
Disadvatages are loosing Knock Off utility and HP Fire/Ice coverage and that Shaymin is slower to play, since Synthesis needs an own turn while Regenerator doesn't. Which one is truly better depends on the situation.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this set :)
I like that shaymin is also faster than defensive Lando T, has a bit more bite to it with earth power and seed flare, and can leech seed, making almost SG magearna impossible to beat it. This is a pretty darn good set.
 
I like that shaymin is also faster than defensive Lando T, has a bit more bite to it with earth power and seed flare, and can leech seed, making almost SG magearna impossible to beat it. This is a pretty darn good set.
SG Mag almost always carries Ice Beam (unless there is a trend I'm not aware of). And even if Ice Beam doesn't 2HKO with Leech Seed + Lefties, SG Mag also has CM
 
SG Mag almost always carries Ice Beam (unless there is a trend I'm not aware of). And even if Ice Beam doesn't 2HKO with Leech Seed + Lefties, SG Mag also has CM
That's why I'm usually pairing Shaymin with Heatran (max speed+max hp or SpDef). Shaymin beats the Focus Blast/All-Out-Pummeling Magearna, Heatran the SGCM set and both check each others weaknesses pretty well. Additionally Earth Power does 38-45% at neutral or 26-30% at +1 Magearna. This plus Leech Seed stacks up quickly. Throw in Fini for Defog or Toxapex for more longevity and you got yourself a core that can check almost the entire OU metagame.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
That's why I'm usually pairing Shaymin with Heatran (max speed+max hp or SpDef). Shaymin beats the Focus Blast/All-Out-Pummeling Magearna, Heatran the SGCM set and both check each others weaknesses pretty well. Additionally Earth Power does 38-45% at neutral or 26-30% at +1 Magearna. This plus Leech Seed stacks up quickly. Throw in Fini for Defog or Toxapex for more longevity and you got yourself a core that can check almost the entire OU metagame.
Amazing, ShayTran is a great idea. Do you mind showing us a team built around Shaymin? I know this thread's goal is only to showcase niche sets, but I think posting a team involving them would be way more interesting : check starry blanket 's haxorus post, I just couldn't take my eyes off it! And one thing is to say: "Well I think this pokemon is ok" another one is to show a team you have used with which shaymin works ! Just put 6 sprites and an importable+little description to quickly explain why shaymin (or darmanitan etc) was chosen :) I think that we should all do this, tell me if you forbid it Martin (I guess it's ok :3)

I would really, really love you all if you all bring some heat team featuring your favourite underdog!!!
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
People don't really look at RMT's without great success; given that Smogon's mathematicians have proven that you can't go higher than a certain rank and GXE with unranked pokemons, trying desperately to make them work well makes no sense and therefore showing here teams built around them could help make our brains function by understanding why a "poor" pokemon can work and how!
 
People don't really look at RMT's without great success; given that Smogon's mathematicians have proven that you can't go higher than a certain rank and GXE with unranked pokemons, trying desperately to make them work well makes no sense and therefore showing here teams built around them could help make our brains function by understanding why a "poor" pokemon can work and how!
Sorry to be a little off-topic, but I'm interested in this proof, do you have a link?
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
People don't really look at RMT's without great success; given that Smogon's mathematicians have proven that you can't go higher than a certain rank and GXE with unranked pokemons, trying desperately to make them work well makes no sense and therefore showing here teams built around them could help make our brains function by understanding why a "poor" pokemon can work and how!
IK Volx has already made an example of this post, but I just want to give a formal (and hopefully informative) reply to this—because it seems to miss the point in a few ways.

Metagame evolution happens when people experiment with new things. Whether this means unexplored variants/sets of Pokemon (see: fast Heatran in ORAS, SubToxic Tran and CB Zygarde in early SM, Smack Down/Gravity on Flyinium Lando-T) or Pokemon which are considered to be "unviable" (see: Reuniclus in gen 6 (went from unranked to somewhere in the Bs within the space of one or two shifts)). If noone ever tried to make things that noone considered before work, the metagame would probably never change; the VR would be mostly fixed, Pokemon most likely wouldn't shift in and out of favor past the first few weeks etc. I'm sure you are aware of this, but I want to say it anyway as a preface for the next paragraph.

The VR is a completely arbitrary list that attempts to "order" the viability of Pokemon within a metagame so that new players have a resource to see what the key threats within the metagame are so that they are aware of what they need to keep in mind when building. There is no physical line where a Pokemon is no longer viable, but there is a point at which viability is considered to be too low to warrant listing (and there is a very big difference between "low viability" and "unviable"); while it isn't something that I'd recommend doing until you have a solid grasp of building within the tier, the idea that you can't use a Pokemon just because it isn't ranked on the VR is just idiotic stigma spouted by players who generally have no idea what they are talking about. There is no "mathematics" or "mathematicians" involved (this was the worst use of that word that I've read in a while btw—not to mention that it's blatant lying), and there are examples of unranked Pokemon doing well on the ladder for reasons other than surprise value (granted that some (keyword) of the teams posted in the RMT forum are of... questionable quality); there have also been cases of unranked Pokemon being used in tournament settings (MUCH more notable than the top of the ladder), pulling their weight, and then proceeding to be picked up by the wider player base.

The big difference between good use of an E rank and bad use of an E rank depends on whether they are being used to fill a hole that only they can fill (good) or if they are being used for the sake of using them (bad), and as much as examples are useful for obvious reasons, you don't necessarily need to show a team in order to illustrate the niche of an unranked Pokemon so much as you need a thorough explanation of its key niche which touches on the key pros and cons of the Pokemon in question (because, after all, it is a niche pick for a reason). The concept that you need an aid to allow the reader's brain "to function" is assumption of ignorance and/or stupidity, which is widely considered to be one of the sins of non-beginners' informative writing (i.e. the posting style employed in this thread). While this may read like me just picking apart poor wording, it is important that I highlight this because this is something that a lot of users (not only you) don't seem to understand and because I want to ensure that people are coming into this thread with the correct mindset.

I hope I didn't come across as harsh or anything in this post, and I don't want to discourage you from posting in this thread. I understand that you were just trying to be helpful, but in a laid back, somewhat formless thread like this I'm fine managing what people should need to post myself.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
IK Volx has already made an example of this post, but I just want to give a formal (and hopefully informative) reply to this—because it seems to miss the point in a few ways.

Metagame evolution happens when people experiment with new things. Whether this means unexplored variants/sets of Pokemon (see: fast Heatran in ORAS, SubToxic Tran and CB Zygarde in early SM, Smack Down/Gravity on Flyinium Lando-T) or Pokemon which are considered to be "unviable" (see: Reuniclus in gen 6 (went from unranked to somewhere in the Bs within the space of one or two shifts)). If noone ever tried to make things that noone considered before work, the metagame would probably never change; the VR would be mostly fixed, Pokemon most likely wouldn't shift in and out of favor past the first few weeks etc. I'm sure you are aware of this, but I want to say it anyway as a preface for the next paragraph.

The VR is a completely arbitrary list that attempts to "order" the viability of Pokemon within a metagame so that new players have a resource to see what the key threats within the metagame are so that they are aware of what they need to keep in mind when building. There is no physical line where a Pokemon is no longer viable, but there is a point at which viability is considered to be too low to warrant listing (and there is a very big difference between "low viability" and "unviable"); while it isn't something that I'd recommend doing until you have a solid grasp of building within the tier, the idea that you can't use a Pokemon just because it isn't ranked on the VR is just idiotic stigma spouted by players who generally have no idea what they are talking about. There is no "mathematics" or "mathematicians" involved (this was the worst use of that word that I've read in a while btw—not to mention that it's blatant lying), and there are examples of unranked Pokemon doing well on the ladder for reasons other than surprise value (granted that some (keyword) of the teams posted in the RMT forum are of... questionable quality); there have also been cases of unranked Pokemon being used in tournament settings (MUCH more notable than the top of the ladder), pulling their weight, and then proceeding to be picked up by the wider player base.

The big difference between good use of an E rank and bad use of an E rank depends on whether they are being used to fill a hole that only they can fill (good) or if they are being used for the sake of using them (bad), and as much as examples are useful for obvious reasons, you don't necessarily need to show a team in order to illustrate the niche of an unranked Pokemon so much as you need a thorough explanation of its key niche which touches on the key pros and cons of the Pokemon in question (because, after all, it is a niche pick for a reason). The concept that you need an aid to allow the reader's brain "to function" is assumption of ignorance and/or stupidity, which is widely considered to be one of the sins of non-beginners' informative writing (i.e. the posting style employed in this thread). While this may read like me just picking apart poor wording, it is important that I highlight this because this is something that a lot of users (not only you) don't seem to understand and because I want to ensure that people are coming into this thread with the correct mindset.

I hope I didn't come across as harsh or anything in this post, and I don't want to discourage you from posting in this thread. I understand that you were just trying to be helpful, but in a laid back, somewhat formless thread like this I'm fine managing what people should need to post myself.
Thank you for replaying to my post even though I don't agree at all with what you said.

First of all, I am myself always trying to make "bad" pokemons viable, and I think I can safely say that some are hopeless. The comparison between Reuniclus and stuff like Typhlosion, let's say, makes no sense simply because Reuniclus has a real and unique niche: he actually has magicguard+enough bulk/typing to wall medicham and ability to sweep stall. It was Unranked at the BEGINNING of SM, but heatran wasn't used seriously either, there was actually no real metagame. But once it has settled, I've never seen an unranked pokemon suddenly starting to shine, and if it happens like a possible togekiss comeback, it's not a miracle but rather the evolution of the metagame where trends aren't balanced towards a balanced one so togekiss becoming good is not true, it was good but everybody using HO prevented it from doing something. That's what happened I guess in ORAS with the rise of togekiss because of stall: Togekiss potential could be used since your probability of facing HO was really low, contrary to stuff like nidoqueen that can't be good by themselves in OU.

Anyway being niche doesn't mean good, but only doing a very unique little work in a SPECIFIC team. It's not in a specific playstyle, it's in a team or two, simply because your X pokemon provides almost 0 role compression so you have almost no choice if you want to make something solid around it: role compression leaves little choice when starting this way.

I don't know if you wrote this in pure theorymonning, but I've been using underdogs for 2 years and if I say these pokemons are much better explained with a team around them, it's because I'm tired to see people trying to use these niche sets in teams built like standard ones which is the biggest mistake. I've posted RMTs to explain to my friends and fans why I manage to use such pokemons successfully, like winning with pachirisu in OU regularly.

I really have no interest in seeing here posts like OK zoroark can lure threats which is awesome. That's nice on paper, try then to show me a team around it and we'll see if it has a niche: if you look at the team and find no pokemon able to replace your luvdisc or X underdog then it is a good idea! For exemple if you don't find a pokemon to pair with zoroark that has no intimidate, terrain, pressure etc (zoroark can't bluff this) well your zoroark idea won't help you. A niche pokemon is nothing in itself but helps a specific team in doing something, so showing it alone makes no sense, at least to me.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Sorry to be a little off-topic, but I'm interested in this proof, do you have a link?
I was trying to know what GXE was exactly, and found some post where a guy explains he managed to measure the max GXE RU players could have if he used some unranked pokemon and shows the list of GXEs. I found it after like 1 hour of googling "GXE" "what GXE is" etc, so I will do my best to find it as a proof but reading again all the topics I found is gonna be a pain :/
 
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Leo

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I was trying to know what GXE was exactly, and found some post where a guy explains he managed to measure the max GXE RU players could have if he used some unranked pokemon and shows the list of GXEs. I found it after like 1 hour of googling "GXE" "what GXE is" etc, so I will do my best to find it as a proof but reading again all the topics I found is gonna be a pain :/
I thought you were joking at first with the gxe thing lol, gxe has nothing to do with your team or how many unranked mons youre using so you can basically get 90 92 gxe with literally anything as long as you win (tho obviously it's harder to win with UR mons). If you want a more in depth explanation on gxe check this out http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...layers-overall-rating-than-shoddys-cre.51169/
 

cityscapes

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here is the thread in question - Viability Ceiling: A Measure of How Far a Pokemon Can Take You

basically it attempts to estimate how good a mon is by taking the highest gxe a person has gotten with it. this does not imply that it is impossible to get any higher with the mon

and to me it looks like a very undeveloped feature, like supposedly antar was going to put in something to prevent people from using an unviable mon once on a high gxe alt to skew the viability ceiling but apparently that never happened

you can find the viability ceiling of mons at http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-07/chaos/gen7ou-1825.json by using ctrl+f and searching for "viability ceiling" however be wary as the page is very large and it will take a long time to load.

hope that was helpful
 
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