ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

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Thisbemyalt

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Ok time for raw blasphemy, Sylv is just another specs user one that notably lacks utility outside of baton pass, is restricted to a whopping base 60 speed tier with underwhelming neutral bulk, and has hilariously weak coverage, the overhype here is real, sylv has had a metagame impact but it's very limited.

Random vests are what people who do not understand how2mons slap onto teams. There has been a noticeable but not overwhelming upswing in sylv's actual counters on stall/semi/defensive balance in the form of spdefmlix/megron/arcanine/Bliss/Rade/Fatqueen/etc but these mon's were good beforehand and saw a reasonable amount of use. Sylv is never breaking bliss on it's own unless it's like... banded double edge and the pursuit wow core functions similarly with most of the tier's other top tier specs/LO AOA users.

On offense you only need to swap into sylv 0-1 times and can flat out ignore the little shitter with strong neutral hits and mediocre bulk alongside weak resists, offense can pull this off because.... 5-6 mon's on the team team are faster than a base 60 and can either OHKO or 2hit KO the little shit while living any hit. Seriously outside of TW/TR sylv is just a speedbump for HO. It does make hydrie slightly worse offensively on this archetype and limits DD gyara but you run those on HO for the defensive utility they provide not for their overwhelming offensive presence.

A rank is already overselling it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 216-255 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 225-265 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (superpower)
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 189-223 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 15.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 300-355 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 175-208 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Superpower)
252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Stab CC)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (muh hazards)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-181 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (superpower)

Sylv is pretty pwrful but not incomparably so while on the other hand... all of these are either not choice locked, have a much better neutral bulk/resist game, have more utility, or have a stronger matchup against dedicated stall cores, and none of them are in the pitiful hell of base 60 speed.

Sylvs unique niche as a truely offensive fairy is legit, is strong, and is worthy of A-/A rank. But most of it's perceived potency comes from... ladder adjusting to new threats at the pace of a paraplegic tortoise.
Dude you literally said you wanted torn is S rank you can't say he is overhyping Sylveon lol, and you undersell the fuck out of sylveons typing and move pool in all honesty. The great thing about sylveon is it only needs what little coverage it has, sure maybe it would like a stronger fire move but it has a good enough pool to 3hko/2hko almost every mon in the meta. Also sylveon is great against stall cores all you need is to pursuit trap a blissey or psyshock a tenta or do 40 to an aggron and hvoice straight kills the team, whereas tornadus has high risk moves, which sure are fine in most cases but they can not stack up to a mon whose STAB move is much stronger with absolutely no drawbacks, no -2, no miss, no immunities. Also BP is great for gaining momentum on the few counters sylveon does have. I get saying keep it A but your argument was really poor and you posted a ton of irrelevant calcs, as always.
 

KM

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Ok time for raw blasphemy, Sylv is just another specs user one that notably lacks utility outside of baton pass, is restricted to a whopping base 60 speed tier with underwhelming neutral bulk, and has hilariously weak coverage, the overhype here is real, sylv has had a metagame impact but it's very limited.

Random vests are what people who do not understand how2mons slap onto teams. There has been a noticeable but not overwhelming upswing in sylv's actual counters on stall/semi/defensive balance in the form of spdefmlix/megron/arcanine/Bliss/Rade/Fatqueen/etc but these mon's were good beforehand and saw a reasonable amount of use. Sylv is never breaking bliss on it's own unless it's like... banded double edge and the pursuit wow core functions similarly with most of the tier's other top tier specs/LO AOA users.

On offense you only need to swap into sylv 0-1 times and can flat out ignore the little shitter with strong neutral hits and mediocre bulk alongside weak resists, offense can pull this off because.... 5-6 mon's on the team team are faster than a base 60 and can either OHKO or 2hit KO the little shit while living any hit. Seriously outside of TW/TR sylv is just a speedbump for HO it's that easy to supress. It does make hydrie slightly worse offensively on this archetype and limits DD gyara but you run those on HO for the defensive utility they provide not for their overwhelming offensive presence.

A rank is already overselling it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 216-255 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 225-265 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (superpower)
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 189-223 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 15.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 300-355 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 175-208 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Superpower)
252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Stab CC)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (muh hazards)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-181 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (superpower)

Sylv is pretty pwrful but not incomparably so while on the other hand... all of these are either not choice locked, have a much better neutral bulk/resist game, have more utility, or have a stronger matchup against dedicated stall cores, and none of them are in the pitiful hell of base 60 speed.

Sylvs unique niche as a truely offensive fairy is legit, is strong, and is worthy of A-/A rank. But most of it's perceived potency comes from... ladder adjusting to new threats at the pace of a paraplegic tortoise.
not really sure how linking calcs of other UU mons using inaccurate moves that do less damage is proving any points but

I can not stress enough that /Sylveon Does Not Have To Predict/. This is a point that y'all are missing with these irrelevant comparisons, and it's hella important. You can't consider viability in a vacuum of you predicting every switchin and move correctly, you have to look at things on a macro level in which you can be punished for clicking the wrong move. Sylveon really can't be punished for clicking the wrong move that much. Worst case scenario, it does 30-40% to a "counter" and forces it to heal up the next turn or risk getting 2HKOd the next time it tries to switch in. Compare that with nukes like Hydra, whose stabs have the potential to give offensive mons boosts and are 4x resisted or immuned by commonly used mons in the tier. Or Chandelure, whose stabs both have common immunities and can be pursuit trapped. Or literally any other special nuke than the Nidos, whose moves are inaccurate and (on a macro level) are bound to miss and lose momentum.

also mono fairy is the last thing from "mediocre typing" for an offensive mon. resistances to bug, fighting, and dark and weaknesses only to uncommon offensive types means sylveon can easily withstand hits from most mons and is key to its success
 
Dude you literally said you wanted torn is S rank you can't say he is overhyping Sylveon lol, and you undersell the fuck out of sylveons typing and move pool in all honesty. The great thing about sylveon is it only needs what little coverage it has, sure maybe it would like a stronger fire move but it has a good enough pool to 3hko/2hko almost every mon in the meta. Also sylveon is great against stall cores all you need is to pursuit trap a blissey or psyshock a tenta or do 40 to an aggron and hvoice straight kills the team, whereas tornadus has high risk moves, which sure are fine in most cases but they can not stack up to a mon whose STAB move is much stronger with absolutely no drawbacks, no -2, no miss, no immunities. Also BP is great for gaining momentum on the few counters sylveon does have. I get saying keep it A but your argument was really poor and you posted a ton of irrelevant calcs, as always.
When a post leads off with "welp im about to commit blasphemy" it should be reasonably clear that the poster is playing devils advocate.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 220-261 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 216-255 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

First of all, no, sylv is noticeably weaker all things equal, tornadus can just afford to run timid LO + utility. There is a really good reason half of BL consists of birds.

I nominated tornadus for A- because it's insanely threatening to everything even with heavy preparation and has high utility + strong alternate sets but is a by the numbers unstable mon that regardless of my personal opinion will be distasteful to others.

Sylv holds a unique niche but it is NOT a be all end all breaker with power above and beyond the pale.

Edit: Since you insist on comparing the nominations... I'd encourage you to try both breaker utility Torn-I and specs Sylv on the same team as ameans of direct comparison. They work well together and you can see which one puts in more work overall.
 
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Hilomilo

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I have a few noms that I think deserve at least some discussion.

Escavalier up to A- - I think this has been discussed recently, and if or if not, I definitely think Escav should rise. It's SD set is so effective in terms of applying pressure to stall and can break through common physical walls in Cune and Swampert, and it also acts as a solid check to prevalent threats in Sylveon and Celebi lacking HP fire. Great defensive typing and bulk help it to guarantee at least one SD setup, and its STAB and common coverage hit pretty much the whole tier for a ton of damage. Escav should at least be closer to the top of B+ if anything.

Infernape up to A - Nape has to be one of UU's most unpredictable mons, it's ability to pull off SO many sets SO well gives it more offensive versatility than any other mon in the entire tier. It has an amazing movepool and great speed and offenses to be able to take on its checks, and can either take a huge chunk of the tier on with a banded CC or Flare Blitz or set up with NP or SD and sweep through any kind of team. Zam's ban also takes some weight off this thing's shoulders, as it was one of the few checks Nape couldn't deal with, and other a- mons really just don't compare with this guy.

Donphan down to C or C- - I don't understand why anyone would want to use this thing over any other spinner in uu. It's outclassed as an offensive spinner by Blastosie and Tentacruel and outclassed defensively by Forretress and again, Tentacruel. Despite good attack and a fair movepool, it's god awful speed and special defense keeps it from providing offensive pressure for too long, and it can't continue to spin hazards away as reliably as any other spinner the tier has to offer.

Just a few things I thought were worth considering, or at least discussing. Tell me what you guys think!
 
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kokoloko

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Hydra is a great mon, but as a special nuke it definitely falls flat compared to sylveon due to having actual counters
hey ummmmmm its the other way around

let me list sylveon counters: SpD empoleon, blissey, AV metagross -- not many hard counters, but there are some
let me list hydreigon counters: porygon2... except not rly cause it loses to taunt and probably draco + superpower w/ some dmg

yes sylv only needs to click one move, but you're 100% incorrect when saying that hydreigon has counters and sylveon does not, its the other way around. versatily is what makes hydreigon more viable, as it fits on more types of teams. offensive sylveon fits on... offensive teams and some balances, but not many.


also did someone say scarf sylveon? i'm outta here
 

KM

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(Hydra is a great mon, but as a special nuke it definitely falls flat compared to sylveon due to having actual counters)
as a special nuke
trust me kokoloko i'm not talking about LO mixed hydra having counters, i've been around long enough to know that's not true. if you didn't remove this quote from the context of the sentences around it, you'd see that i was talking specifically about the role of a special nuke, in the context of comparing mons by role. as great as it is that hydra can run LO and donk things with iron tail or superpower, that doesn't make it a better special nuke. while hydra's versatility absolutely makes it an amazing mon worthy of S-rank and is impactful on even its special sets due to the unpredictability that stems from that versatility, that doesn't change how good hydra is as a special nuke. you can't say "florges is a better cleric than bliss because you can run cm synthesis instead of cleric" - if you're team building and looking for a cleric, you're not going to be judging based on the other sets that the mon you're running could potentially also be running. my point was that if someone were team building and wanted a special nuke, sylveon would exceed more in that role than hydra due to the spammability and unavoidability of its main stab.
 
Because sylveon is a highly centralizing mon that teams have to bring checks for, you can readily expect to see the same checks 99% of the time. Almost every high-ladder balance / offense team I've seen is running some combination of Entei / Nidoqueen / M-Agg / Empoleon / Metagross / Arcanine / Rotom-Heat as a desperate attempt to stop offensive Sylveon from literally just clicking HV and killing shit.
Offense and even balance to an extent can afford to use Pokemon like Entei and Nidoqueen as checks to Sylveon because they probably will never have to switch into Hyper Voice more than once. Sylveon's typing and bulk are good for an offensive mon, but that doesn't prevent it from getting worn down by hazards and chip damage from the attackers that it can come in on - even defensive Pokemon that it switches in on wear it down in the long run (Chesnaught: Leech Seed or Spikes to limit future switchins; Sableye: puts Sylveon on a HEAVY timer or outright cripples it; etc). There's nothing wrong with having to switch your Entei into Sylveon once as long as you aren't locking a Scarf Hydreigon into Draco Meteor multiple times in the early game. On more defensively oriented/stall teams, Blissey/Aggron/SpDef Empoleon/Arcanine/Bronzong are fine, obviously Sylveon will pressure these archetypes more than others, but it's still not unmanageable and certainly not enough to push Sylveon all the way up to S.
The pressure difference is immense - let's take Entei as an example. Entei is 2HKOd by Sylveon's Hyper Voice after Rocks, so it can switch in and threaten to OHKO with sacred fire. However, sacred fire is not a 0-risk nuke like Hyper Voice. If the Sylveon user is running something like Chandelure or Doom or Arcanine, the entei is then forced to make a prediction. If it makes the wrong choice, it either risks losing the momentum and giving a flash fire boost or losing the entei and doing ~50% damage with Stone Edge or ESpeed.
Switching Chandelure and Houndoom and even Arcanine into Entei is a LOT riskier than switching Empoleon or whatever into Sylveon. I would say that Entei is definitely the more "viable" wallbreaker because Sacred Fire is so good in forcing damage onto Entei's and Entei's teammates' checks and counters, much better Speed meaning it performs a lot better against anything offensive, and even additional "defensive" utility in Extremespeed.
I'm just trying to show that, unlike other nukes, Sylveon's counters are not hard counters even if they predict correctly, and they must also continue to predict correctly once they switch in in order for their countering to be successful.
You can't consider viability in a vacuum of you predicting every switchin and move correctly, you have to look at things on a macro level in which you can be punished for clicking the wrong move. Sylveon really can't be punished for clicking the wrong move that much. Worst case scenario, it does 30-40% to a "counter" and forces it to heal up the next turn or risk getting 2HKOd the next time it tries to switch in.
Again, you're forgetting that Sylveon is also getting worn down while it's Hyper Voicing its counters. It's not like Sylveon can come in over and over risk free and keep taking chunks out of the Steel type until it faints; every time it switches in it's taking damage from the stuff I mentioned earlier. For the last part, that's literally how a Pokemon counters any other Pokemon, i.e. that's the same way Cresselia counters Nidoqueen or Slowking counters Entei.
Another great option for Sylveon is to run Scarf Sylveon in conjunction with NP-Pass Celebi. When you're outspeeding everything below 113+ Spe, there's very little that can take it, and even littler that can take it and kill you and return. On top of being a huge nuke with momentum in b pass, Sylveon also has huge bulk and can take many of the hits from the things that can "deal" with it.
I'll just state the obvious, even +2 Scarf Sylveon isn't breaking through its usual offensive checks, eg Entei Nidoqueen Metagross and all those live a hit after rocks a kill it in return. Not to mention that aside from Hydreigon and a few other minor ones, all the Pokemon that threaten Celebi also threaten Sylveon, so you're gonna have a tough time BPing into Sylveon from Steel-types, Fire-types, Mega Aero/Crobat, etc. Sure you might pick up a surprise kill but now you're running a Sylveon set that requires so much more support than any other set.

All that being said, I do agree that Sylveon /overall/ is deserving of a higher rank than Florges, so I wouldn't be opposed to moving Florges to the bottom of A or the top of A-.
also Mamoswine to S Rank
unless you completely fuck up mamoswine is just ridiculously good. it's a SR setter with insane offensive presence and its offensive and defensive typing allows it to stay relevant throughout the match by blocking volt switches and also preventing S-tier threats like Salamence from setting up due to Ice Shard. it also threatens S-tier threat Tornadus ;)

on the real tho this thing is restrictive in team building and wrecks shit independently of any other mon and yeah
Mamoswine isn't a great Stealth Rock user since it has a very hard time setting up SR and doing the breaking that it should be doing. Sacri's post summed the rest up nicely. It has basically zero defensive utility outside of checking things with Ice Shard, and there's a fair amount of Pokemon that can eat up a few hits and force it out (stuff like defensive Swampert and Forry). I don't see how it's restrictive to teambuilding at all, actually the fact that Salamence is still unquestionably an S-tier Pokemon despite Mamoswine being so good should prove that it doesn't stop anything from being viable and therefore is not restrictive.

Now that that's over with:

Changes:

Mega Ampharos: B to B-
Tentacruel: B+ to A-
Metagross: B to B+. Wasn't a whole lot of discussion on this but Metagross has emerged as a great offensive SR user with the ability to check a lot of key threats

Nominations:

Mega Sharpedo: A to A-. Definitely not as effective or reliable a cleaner as it seemed to be a few months ago, still really threatening late-game to offense but maybe not consistent enough to stay in A (also 2 more checks)
Florges: A to A-
Cresselia: A- to A. Huge threat to offense with its CM set, capable of switching into and beating both NP Celebi and Sylveon with the right investment (max HP, 230 Speed for Crawdaunt, a little bit of Sdef investment with the rest in Def) and a solid answer to Conkeldurr as well. Overall an extremely solid sweeper capable of countering some of the biggest threats in the tier, which it always has been, but it's definitely more comfortable in the bulky offensive environment that UU's currently in.

Other:

Leaving Tornadus where it is, I feel that it fits perfectly near the top of B+. Very threatening once it's on the field, and great utility as always, but not "splashable" to make it up to A- if you consider the other mons in that rank. Also, its unreliability does have to be taken into account here.

Leaving Lucario in B+ as well, although I did move it up to the top of B+ because I think it's pretty close to Infernape, but I think Lucario's checks for either set are common enough to prevent it from rising.

Leaving Escavalier and Shaymin where they are[/quote]
 
Offense and even balance to an extent can afford to use Pokemon like Entei and Nidoqueen as checks to Sylveon because they probably will never have to switch into Hyper Voice more than once. Sylveon's typing and bulk are good for an offensive mon, but that doesn't prevent it from getting worn down by hazards and chip damage from the attackers that it can come in on - even defensive Pokemon that it switches in on wear it down in the long run (Chesnaught: Leech Seed or Spikes to limit future switchins; Sableye: puts Sylveon on a HEAVY timer or outright cripples it; etc). There's nothing wrong with having to switch your Entei into Sylveon once as long as you aren't locking a Scarf Hydreigon into Draco Meteor multiple times in the early game. On more defensively oriented/stall teams, Blissey/Aggron/SpDef Empoleon/Arcanine/Bronzong are fine, obviously Sylveon will pressure these archetypes more than others, but it's still not unmanageable and certainly not enough to push Sylveon all the way up to S.
Switching Chandelure and Houndoom and even Arcanine into Entei is a LOT riskier than switching Empoleon or whatever into Sylveon. I would say that Entei is definitely the more "viable" wallbreaker because Sacred Fire is so good in forcing damage onto Entei's and Entei's teammates' checks and counters, much better Speed meaning it performs a lot better against anything offensive, and even additional "defensive" utility in Extremespeed.
Again, you're forgetting that Sylveon is also getting worn down while it's Hyper Voicing its counters. It's not like Sylveon can come in over and over risk free and keep taking chunks out of the Steel type until it faints; every time it switches in it's taking damage from the stuff I mentioned earlier. For the last part, that's literally how a Pokemon counters any other Pokemon, i.e. that's the same way Cresselia counters Nidoqueen or Slowking counters Entei.
I'll just state the obvious, even +2 Scarf Sylveon isn't breaking through its usual offensive checks, eg Entei Nidoqueen Metagross and all those live a hit after rocks a kill it in return. Not to mention that aside from Hydreigon and a few other minor ones, all the Pokemon that threaten Celebi also threaten Sylveon, so you're gonna have a tough time BPing into Sylveon from Steel-types, Fire-types, Mega Aero/Crobat, etc. Sure you might pick up a surprise kill but now you're running a Sylveon set that requires so much more support than any other set.

All that being said, I do agree that Sylveon /overall/ is deserving of a higher rank than Florges, so I wouldn't be opposed to moving Florges to the bottom of A or the top of A-.
Mamoswine isn't a great Stealth Rock user since it has a very hard time setting up SR and doing the breaking that it should be doing. Sacri's post summed the rest up nicely. It has basically zero defensive utility outside of checking things with Ice Shard, and there's a fair amount of Pokemon that can eat up a few hits and force it out (stuff like defensive Swampert and Forry). I don't see how it's restrictive to teambuilding at all, actually the fact that Salamence is still unquestionably an S-tier Pokemon despite Mamoswine being so good should prove that it doesn't stop anything from being viable and therefore is not restrictive.

Now that that's over with:

Changes:

Mega Ampharos: B to B-
Tentacruel: B+ to A-
Metagross: B to B+. Wasn't a whole lot of discussion on this but Metagross has emerged as a great offensive SR user with the ability to check a lot of key threats

Nominations:

Mega Sharpedo: A to A-. Definitely not as effective or reliable a cleaner as it seemed to be a few months ago, still really threatening late-game to offense but maybe not consistent enough to stay in A (also 2 more checks)
Florges: A to A-
Cresselia: A- to A. Huge threat to offense with its CM set, capable of switching into and beating both NP Celebi and Sylveon with the right investment (max HP, 230 Speed for Crawdaunt, a little bit of Sdef investment with the rest in Def) and a solid answer to Conkeldurr as well. Overall an extremely solid sweeper capable of countering some of the biggest threats in the tier, which it always has been, but it's definitely more comfortable in the bulky offensive environment that UU's currently in.

Other:

Leaving Tornadus where it is, I feel that it fits perfectly near the top of B+. Very threatening once it's on the field, and great utility as always, but not "splashable" to make it up to A- if you consider the other mons in that rank. Also, its unreliability does have to be taken into account here.

Leaving Lucario in B+ as well, although I did move it up to the top of B+ because I think it's pretty close to Infernape, but I think Lucario's checks for either set are common enough to prevent it from rising.

Leaving Escavalier and Shaymin where they are
Tbh I really agree that although Sylveon has almost no counters on balance, it's got plenty of switch ins that can live a hypervoice in a pinch, these checks means you just have to pressure Sylveon, without the added bulk and slow speed tier pressuring it from dropping nukes over and over again shouldn't be To hard.

That's an important difference between Hydreigon and Sylveon, Hydreigon has great speed and invests in it. Sylveon chooses to invest in its bulk since it is slow regardless. The former really helps versus balance, making it harder to adapt to any situation that might arise
 

Manipulative

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The only one of the new noms that I'm on the fence about is Mega Sharpedo. I'm actually leaning more towards disagreeing with this one. Yeah, two new checks in Sylveon and Conk have dropped, but there's actually a lot that Mega Sharpedo has going for it as well. The metagame has shifted away from more defensive or balance builds and much closer to offense, which Mega Sharpedo has its best matchup against. The standard FlorgCune or Pert/Forry/Florg Balance teams that were being used consistently in the pre-drop meta, and with a pretty good matchup against Mega Sharpedo, get demolished by NP Celebi. We've been seeing much less of Florges and Whimsicott, and a lot of Specs Sylveon now, which is something that Mega Sharpedo appreciates as Florges was one of its biggest stops. Sylveon wants to run heavy speed investment to outpace things like Conk and Crawdaunt for example, and I personally think that it's best for Sylveon to simply have max speed investment with a Modest nature. In turn, Mega Sharpedo's task of achieving a late game sweep becomes much more plausible as it needs significantly less prior damage on Specs Sylveon than it did on Florges.

252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 139-165 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 216-255 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This, along with the more offensive metagame, is why I believe that Mega Sharpedo needs a bit more time before being considered for a drop. Of course, there's also Sylveon's Cleric set that has been seeing some usage, but not nearly as much as its Specs set has. Conk certainly hinders Mega Sharpedo's viability as well. Though, the last of the recent drops, Celebi, increases Mega Sharpedo's viability, and in more than one way. For one, with Celebi being on a really good amount of teams, Mega Sharpedo now has one more really important threat that it can check. Celebi coming into the tier also means that Mega Sharpedo has a new strategy (CelePass) in which it often plays a very important role. That's not to say that CelePass is some ridiculously efficient strategy to use or anything, but it's very threatening and surely can be considered viable, so I think it's something that should be taken into consideration. Lastly, some of the mons that we've been seeing a rise in recently, such as Mega Sceptile and Cresselia, also make for another reason to use Mega Sharpedo. I think that for the time being we should keep it at A.



Cresselia has definitely been getting a lot better with recent metagame changes and all of the recent drops. It's just able to check a plethora of threats due to its massive bulk while making for a pretty good CM sweeper. I'm fine with moving it up to A.

I'm also in agreement with Florges dropping for the same reasons that have already been discussed in this thread. Specs Sylveon has been taking over, and its Cleric set is more efficient than Florges' cleric set as well. The only sets that Florges has going for it is CM+Synth and Wish+Synth. The first of which just isn't as good as it once was. The latter is incredibly rare and has a specific enough niche so that it would only fit on few teams anyway. Florges and Sylveon shouldn't be of the same rank, so it would be fine to move it down to A-.



A nom of my own that I would really like to see discussion on is Bronzong to B+. The reasons I think that Bronzong deserves a rise is similar to the reasons that Metagross rose, except from a more defensive standpoint. Specially Defensive Bronzong is something that has been finding its way into some of my teams lately due to how much pressure it takes off of the rest of the team with that one teamslot. It provides the team with a solid switch into Specs Sylveon's Hyper Voice, a Stealth Rock user, and a blanket check to a plethora of threats. With a standard set of Steel-type Attack / Earthquake / Toxic / Stealth Rock paired with Levitate, Bronzong is able to put a stop to many other top tier threats such as Mega Aerodactyl, DD Mence, and two other mons that have been rising lately in Mega Sceptile and Cresselia. Mega Sceptile in particular has proven to be quite threatening, especially with Florges being on the decline, and having Bronzong as a stop to it can be huge for certain teams. The resistance to Flying lets it be a good check to and keep Rocks up against Crobat, which has also been on the rise. Levitate gives Bronzong a niche that no other Steel-type in the tier has, allowing it to effectively stop threats such as the Nidos and Kyurem. You also have the option to swap either Earthquake or Toxic for another move if it better suits your team. One of the most notable alternatives right now, in my opinion, is Signal Beam. It turns Bronzong into one of the only counters to non-HP Fire Celebi, which could be pretty huge for defensive and balance teams. Overall, Bronzong has a great amount of defensive utility in the tier and seems much more splashable than most, if not all, of the other B ranked mons.
 
One thing I don't like about Bronzong as a counter to Sylveon though, is that it basically is bait for Sylveon's best partner atm Krookodile; Sylveon+Krookodile actually pressures Bronzong a lot, although on paper its definitely a really solid counter to Sylveon, in practice it doesn't always work out. In general I think offensively pressuring Sylveon works out way better, than trying to have a counter to it; because all of the counters lose to Sylv+Krook(well this is ignoring any prediction arguments or anything).

I also want to say that Florges should have moved down a few ranks the moment Sylveon came out; because Wish+Synth or Synth/CM definitely doesn't put it on the same rank as Sylveon; which if it chooses can outclass Florges in every other role. Also want to note that in practice when phsy def is fully invested for Sylveon its only barely more bulky than Florges, and if sp.def is fully invested(not to say that such a set is good for either Sylveon or Florges) it is like 1% more frail on the special side. So able to tank Flash Cannon/Iron Tail better/worse arguments aren't really that relevant. Sylveon running speed is more for its offensive sets, and shouldn't really be brought up when Sylveon is being compared to Florges as a cleric, because in the wallbreaking department there is no comparison at all to be made.
 
Now that Alakazam is ded, could we unrank Jolteon? Now that there's no relevant base 120 Speed mons, I see very little reason to use it over Heliolisk- the only thing I can really think of is that it speed ties with CB Crobat and has a neutrality to Infernape's Mach Punch, but the former's not very relevant when they both have about the same amount of Physical bulk, resist its main STAB and take neutral damage from its secondary STAB, whilst I just can't see the ability to live a priority move from one Pokemon that doesn't define the meta being a reason to rank something. In return, Heliolisk has Dry Skin, dual STABs, and coverage moves like Grass Knot, Focus Blast and Surf to hit stuff like (Mega) Swampert and M-Steelix, both of which just end Jolteon, and only 1 point less in Special Attack. All in all, I just don't see a reason to keep it ranked when it's almost completely outclassed by Lisk.
 
Dodmen just forgot my Toxicroak nomination :(((((((((((((((((
Ok, let's talk about some noms

From A- to A: Agreed

Cresselia is one of the most influential Pokémon in the metagame, because if you haven't a Dark-, Ghost- or Bug-Type, you have 0 answers to this, both Offensive and Defensive. Cresselia fits well on both Balance and Bulky Offense builds, and it has a lot of advantages on both of these playstyles. In Balance builds, Cresselia has Florges to hold Knock Off users and Status, and it is a secondary win condition since it can use almost almost any Pokémon as a setup fodder and sweep the mid game. In Bulky Offense Builds, Cresselia can be very useful since it resists a ton of dangerous stuff like Aerodactyl-Mega, thanks to the utility move Thunder Wave. It can also use Lunar Dance to restore the life of a unhealthy Pokémon, so yeah, a thing that threats the most of the metagame needs to rise.

From B to B+: Disagree

Bronzong is a good Pokémon, but I'll explain the why I think that it doesn't deserve this rank. First of all, Bronzong becomes a deadweight if there is Krookodile on in opponent's team, since it is easily Pursuit-trapped. As a Stealth Rock user, Bronzong always lose to the most of the Spinners/Defoggers, just like Tentacruel, Empoleon and Salamence, due to it's lack of reliable recovery. Bronzong loses a ton of momentum too, because if you run the standart set, you are smashed by both Gyarados and NP Celebi, and if you use HP Electric/Signal Beam or any other coverage move instead of Toxic or Earthquake, you are a setup fodder to Slowking, Cresselia, Suicune and Swamper (Normal and Mega) if you are lacking Toxic, and if you are lacking Earthquake, Fire-Types can OHKO you, not to mention that Reuniclus and Sableye can defeat Bronzong 1v1 with any set. Of course that Zong lose one hard check (Zapdos) and gained Sylveon and Celebi, but both of these drops haven't turned Zong into very useful Pokémon, like Slowking, Mienshao and Crobat.
 

Manipulative

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I don't agree with the Krookodile argument. Bronzong gained a pretty good niche with Sylveon dropping into the tier, but it seems you guys are arguing that its ability to check Sylveon, or its viability as a whole, should be overlooked because Krookodile is more common and makes for a good partner for Sylveon. There's a reason two pokemon make for a good pair; they'll do well in dealing with each others checks and counters either offensively or defensively. Krookodile makes for a good partner for Sylveon because of how well it deals with a good portion of Sylveon's checks and counters, but that doesn't really take away anything from Bronzong, or any of the Steel, Poison, or Fire types that become better due to Sylveon's presence. It would be like taking away from Heliolisk's ability to counter Suicune in the previous meta just because Florges made for an excellent partner for it. Or saying that Escavalier shouldn't have been credited for being a hard check to Mega Sceptile just because Gyarados was commonly paired up with it. If you're saying that Bronzong straight up doesn't deserve to rise because of the rise of Krookodile, then Metagross shouldn't have deserved to rise either by that logic. Metagross faces nearly the same exact problem against Krookodile, but its ability to switch into and check Sylveon is still the main reason it has gotten better in this metagame and deserved to rise.

In general I think offensively pressuring Sylveon works out way better, than trying to have a counter to it; because all of the counters lose to Sylv+Krook(well this is ignoring any prediction arguments or anything).
This applies to many of Sylveon's offensive checks as well. Entei, the Nidos, Toxicroak, Roserade, and Metagross all lose to Krookodile. It's part of why Sylveon and Krookodile are good together.

As a Stealth Rock user, Bronzong always lose to the most of the Spinners/Defoggers, just like Tentacruel, Empoleon and Salamence, due to it's lack of reliable recovery.
Except that this is completely wrong. Bronzong takes Tentacruel and Empoleon just fine with Earthquake, despite the risk of getting Scald burned. That would be unfortunate, but if a mon has to rely on a Scald burn to deal with a threat, then it doesn't deal with that threat very well. Let's look at the other hazard removers in the tier. Bronzong handles Crobat perfectly fine, and also has a decent matchup against Gligar and Mandibuzz (which Metagross does not btw) thanks to Levitate and Toxic. Bronzong doesn't struggle with Forretress anymore than Metagross does, and both of them have a poor matchup against Salamence and Mega Blastoise.

you are a setup fodder to Slowking, Cresselia, Suicune and Swamper (Normal and Mega) if you are lacking Toxic, and if you are lacking Earthquake, Fire-Types can OHKO you, not to mention that Reuniclus and Sableye can defeat Bronzong 1v1 with any set.
Obviously Bronzong is going to have different counters depending on its moveset. Metagross is also setup fodder for and loses to Slowking, Cresselia and Swampert without Toxic, which isn't even a standard move on it. Both Metagross and Bronzong do nothing against Suicune with their standard sets. Any relevant Fire-type will outspeed both of them and win 1v1. They also both get countered by Reuniclus and Sableye bar hax.


I've been bringing Metagross up for comparison with Bronzong because I think that they're both pretty similar in a lot of areas despite one being used for offensive purposes and the other for defensive ones. They share the same typing, have very similar standard movesets, and either check or get checked by many of the same things. Both are Stealth Rock users who can switch into and check Sylveon, and that was the main idea behind Metagross' rise I assume. I don't see why Bronzong shouldn't be able to rise for the same reason, especially when it has the ability to counter some other highly relevant threats in the metagame right now like Mega Sceptile, Cresselia, and the Nidos, as well as Celebi if it opts for Signal Beam.
 

Adaam

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Problem with Bronzong (at least the defensive set) is that it is so much easier to switch into than Metagross is. Their revenge killers share a lot of overlap, but I can throw so many more threats at Zong since it misses out on a lot of OHKOs. Explosion is also really useful to circumvent slow defoggers/spinners from removing hazards while Bronzong can only watch as the rocks go away since its way too slow.

The Krookodile problem is actually huge if you run Defensive Zong since you are unable to set up SR until Krook dies. For Metagross, Clear Body + massive Attack means Krooker isn't switching on a Meteor Mash. Metagross also risks Krookodile staying in and hitting it with MM if it Pursuits, whereas Bronzong does zero back with Gyro Ball/Iron Head.

That being said, I agree it should rise based on the OTR set. Blanket checking so many threats to offense while not being passive trash + pseudo speed-control is a godsend
 

YABO

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Theres a key difference between the examples listed and Bronzong's situation. Like Adaam said, Bronzong really can't fight back vs the typical partners brought alongside the rising threat it's supposed to answer. On the contrary, Escavalier could pursuit Zam or Knock Off the Gyarados, which would make the Escavalier unnecessary or more threatening later on and Heliolisk can easily Volt out of Florges preserving momentum. Bronzong can either SR, Toxic, or Iron Head a predicted Krook and then proceed to be trapped by Pursuit. So despite being a good answer to Sylveon in a vacuum, it's an incredibly shaky one from a teambuilding perspective as you'll be shit outta luck when you see Sylveon and Krook loaded onto the same team. While typical partners shouldn't be the only factor looked at in determining viability, it is definitely something to take into consideration, particularly in cases where Pursuit is involved. With all this said, I think Bronzong is fine where it's at. It's a pokemon with easily exploitable flaws but several solid reasons why you'd want to run it on certain teams. It's by no means something to be ignored but is often very disappointing in certain matchups. This closely aligns with my perceived definition of B viability.
 
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Hilomilo

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Cresselia from A- to A: Definitely Agree
Cresselia has become such a centralizing pokemon over the last few months, as any team without a bug, dark or ghost type has no way of dealing with it, and even then, Cresselia's fantastic bulk allows it to at least get a (possibly CM boosted) psychic or moonblast in on anything that could potentially counter it. An amazing defensive mon, there are very few ways to reliably deal with Cress and it's super deserving of A rank.

Florges from A to A-:
Undecided
On one hand, Florges can serve as a great team cleric with aromatherapy and reliable recovery in wish and synthesis. On the other hand, it's now rather outclassed as a wish passer by Sylveon, which has a higher HP stat and more of an offensive presence, even when just supporting a team. I guess the two are a bit different in that Florges sets up with CM, but it definitely isn't the staple it was before the Sylv drop. Right now I'm just not sure though.

Mega Sharpedo from A to A-:
Agree
This thing is absolutely deadly late game, but even upon mega evolving, it's hindered by abysmal bulk and relies on entry hazards up and protect to be able to sweep. With many adaptable mons in the tier, strong priority moves in mach punch, vacuum wave, and extreme speed roaming the tier AND the drops of Celebi, Conkeldurr and Sylveon, Mega Sharpedo doesn't pose as much of a threat as it used to and takes up a mega slot you could be using on more reliable sweepers such as Beedrill and Sceptile.

As for pokemon just moving up and down within their respective rankings, I'm a little shocked to see Infernape move closer to the bottom of A- than the top of it. Nape's insane offensive versatility makes it a nightmare in terms of trying to predict, as it can either turn into a frightening sweeper with NP or SD, outpace even Mega Aerodactyl with choice scarf, or punch holes in unprepared teams with a choice band. Pokemon that check Infernape are still at risk, as its insane movepool allows it to deal with almost all of its checks bar psychic types. I always thought Infernape should move to A or the top of A-, and I'm also going to advocate for rising Escavalier to the top of B+, as its SD set can threaten out anything that isn't a fire type. Just my personal thoughts on everything that's been going on with the thread, tell me what you guys think!
 
A to A- Disagree

No. I'm sorry, but just fucking no.

Nothing has changed for Mega Sharpedo to get worse. Mega Sharpedo still does its job the same as it used to, cleaning late game. And it does that job fantastically. And I'm sorry again, but Hilomilo's arguments. You say that it's hindered by bulk when Mega Beedrill. Mega Sharpedo's job isn't to tank hits. Mega Sharpedo is weak to those priority moves you mentioned, but it's also resistant to Aqua Jet, one of the most common priority moves in the tier.

Celebi my ass.

252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Celebi: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And then you mention that it takes up a Mega Slot and that you could be using Beedrill or Sceptile. Bullshit. With one single Speed Boost Sharpedo outspeeds both of them, and Sharpedo's ability allows it to hit just as hard as both of them.

Tl;dr: Sharpedo is still a threat, it's still on par with Beedrill and Sceptile



I agree with the rest of the slate minus Bronzong.
 

Hilomilo

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I guess I can understand that those weren't my best arguments, but things definitely have changed for it, at least to an extent. The drops of Conkeldurr and Sylveon don't help Mega Sharpedo, as damage calcs suggest that both score a guaranteed OHKO with either specs hyper voice or LO drain punch (or hammer arm) without getting KOed by stab waterfall, and the prevalence of both these threats since their drops just has made an impact on Sharpedo's ability to sweep. A leaf storm from Celebi (which I have been seeing lately) is also a guaranteed OHKO. And your speed boost argument can easily be countered with the fact that choice scarf users in Hydreigon, Mienshao, and Infernape can outspeed Mega Sharpedo and threaten it out with their respective stab attacks, though I see reason in all your arguments and can acknowledge that I did give some pretty shit arguments back there XD.

Edit: You're also forgetting to include SR damage, since it's something set up in like half of all matches you'll be in. Here's the damage calc:
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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A note to the krooksylv aficionado's if the sylv counter runs protect that wonderful core of slow dual choice locked mon's stops functioning entirely and bronzong has a weird case of 3mss so it has the luxury of running 4th slot tect. That said I'm fine with zong moving up for reasons others have stated.

On the note of shark.... it's a cleaner on spikestack offense and conk fails to ohko with non LO adamant mach punch leaving shark in the exact same "bulk tier" of requiring 2 priority hits to take down while offensive sylv has a worse match-up against shark than the preexisting faeries in the UU metagame. Spam of steel, fire, poison and cress on the ladder just makes EQ shark better, it's still suffering from... not being named Maero or Mpert but that's just the cost of being a 2nd string mega in UU.

Cress should really stay in A-, it is doing the exact same things it has always done. Still a fat duck, lunar dance wins games, and CM rolls scrubs. Sadly it's lost no checks, is still surprisingly easy to 2hko neutrally, and still vomits free turns at the opponent thanks to it's underwhelming offenses. That's not saying Cress isn't solid, still a great mon. still a nice fat blanket check, it just hasn't gained anything significant.
 
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Lord Death Man

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How does protect stop Krook from just pursuitting you? Bronzong is cleanly shut down by Krook/Sylv cores no matter what you do because you just straight up don't win unless you're like phys def Colbur Bronzong with protect. I think its fine in B personally; its got some ridiculously good matchups offset by some ridiculously horrible matchups and you're likely to face teams that have at least one of each.

I also don't quite agree with other people's perspectives on CM Florges, though I'm not opposed to it dropping; Calm Mind Florges is more of like a cleric who has options to not forfeit free turns, rather than a bulky wincon, though it can obviously function as one if you can get rid of the multiple fairy soft checks every team carries. Calm Mind helps you force out special attackers you might otherwise reach a semi-stalemate with and helps prevent people from trying to boost on you, Synthesis means you don't have to give up a turn every time you want to heal (which is HUGE), and the speed is pretty nice. The set has suffered from Sylveon's prescence because many teams now carry more reliable fairy answers, but I don't think it's suffered from competing with Sylveon at all.
 
Unranked to C

I was really fucking surprised when I found out that this thing was unranked. Celebi, Hydreigon, and Sylveon have all been very common lately. It doesn't counter them but it definitely checks them. Durant is also pretty hard to switch into, and it's able to utilize this more now since it checks those 3 Pokemon. Many things that can pretty easily beat Durant can't switch in on it. Just look at these calcs:

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 359-424 (108.4 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 541-640 (149.8 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 572-673 (203.5 - 239.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Whimsicott: 515-608 (197.3 - 232.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 390-460 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Durant is far from perfect, some common Pokemon can wall it and it doesn't have the best Speed. Good thing C is a low rank!

Durant even already has a UU analysis with 2 sets.

So why the fuck is it unranked?



Even if it were bad enough to be not worthy of being ranked, wouldn't it still have to be D along with Vaporeon anyway, since Durant can't be used in any tier lower than UU?
 
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I would like to point out that some of those calcs are unlikely to ever happen. Both Mega Beedrill and offensive Whimsicott will simply U-turn out as they outspeed, and Mega Sceptile 2HKOs with Dragon Pulse and does a minimum of 98.8% with Focus Blast.
 
I would like to point out that some of those calcs are unlikely to ever happen. Both Mega Beedrill and offensive Whimsicott will simply U-turn out as they outspeed, and Mega Sceptile 2HKOs with Dragon Pulse and does a minimum of 98.8% with Focus Blast.
Did I say that Durant could outspeed them and take a hit from them?

No.

I said they couldn't switch in on it. And with Celebi, Florges, Hydreigon and Sylveon being more common Durant can force switches more.
 

Thisbemyalt

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Did I say that Durant could outspeed them and take a hit from them?

No.

I said they couldn't switch in on it. And with Celebi, Florges, Hydreigon and Sylveon being more common Durant can force switches more.
Yeah but the calcs are still irrelevant because no one finds it impressive that durant can ohko a beedrill even tho it will never get the chance. If you want to use a series of calcs to prove a point then use relevant calcs against walls or tanks or at least against offensive mons that durant might actually be getting a hit on. However I will say durant's good speed tier with the power it has does warrant C- or C imo, durant has the ability to outspeed and ko a good amount of offensive threats such as sylveon, coba, hydrei, etc. while also having access to hone claws which allows durant to be a late game cleaner or punch holes early on. While I don't find durant to be amazing I can agree that it certainly should be ranked.
 

YABO

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Some good things to post Calc vs would be Doublade, Salamence, Suicune, Swampert, Cobalion, and Entei or something. Showing that you can one shot some of the most frail mons in the tier doesn't accomplish much for your argument because those die to any STAB attack from an offensive pokemon. Be sure to accentuate it's other attributes such as its good typing and speed tier but don't downplay it's weaknesses too much, namely its terrible hp and SpD stats alongside its reliance on 80% accurate moves. Touching on these points while discussing how durant fits onto your teams and maybe a few replays displaying its strength will be the best way for your nomination to gain traction.
 
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