ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread V6

Avant Heim

formerly The Bill Cipher
Krookodile to S Rank:Agree
Krookodile is one of the most viable pokemon in UU.It can be be offensive with a Choice band or a Choice scarf,it can be a non choice attacker with Dread plate,Life Orb or a Earth plate,it can be a defensive set(i don't know with its viable is this meta).His abilitys are very good too,Intimidate to boost Krookodile's staying power as it lowers the foe's attack stat.Moxie can be used to get a late-game sweep.Krook also has a good offensive synergy with the likes of Sylveon and Kyurem,Mega Aero is krook is best partner,as krook can set up the rocks for Mega Aerodactyl.
And for this reasons,krook should be placed in S Rank
 

BlueFins

formerly xxTheBlueGalladexx
Hi there everyone, I'm more used to hiding in the back when it comes to posts in general (since ya know, first post and all that) but I feel I should give my two cents on one of the current nominations.
Gligar up to B+: Disagree
Although on paper Gligar is an excellent form of hazard removal, with its mixed defense set the more common recently after the UU Open. There are a few factors in the current metagame I feel that cannot make it rise.
1. Entei Sacred Fire everywhere
Sacred Fire is a ridiculous move, and if Entei is put out against Gligar it loses the match up because it absolutely hates the burn. Especially if the Entei player is ballsy and tosses the Sacred, the Gligar user has to immediately think:

  • Set up rocks on Entei and become crippled.
  • EQ to get Entei in range for revenge kill but then again, become crippled.
  • Hard switch into the "Entei switch in" and get hit with a potential burn.
Either way, Gligar loses a lot of momentum in this match up, since you have potentially make your hazard remover useless or serve another member of your team up for further problems. Which is rather worrying with Entei running riot.

2. Many Common Mons beat it
As obvious as it is, the higher viability mons in the current meta really damage Gligar's presence on the team. It cant stay in on Krookodile at all, since it risks getting knocked off and has a harder time in longevity and it throws another mon into it. Shuca Empoleon does not fear it. It lets Suicunes come in for free and set up, and is forced to pivot on Swamperts to not risk the burn. NP Infernape can win the 1v1 against the fully defensive spread as it two hits with EQ and Infernape can two hit with Fire Blast, although not an ideal scenario as its a 25% to OHKO ape after rocks coupled with Life Orb.

-solid Mega Aero switch
But what does Gligar do in return? Although Gligar can switch in all it can do is set up rocks and switch back out again, in that whole process if you're against Hone Claws Mega Aero you let it get to +2 for free.

Now that i've talked about its negatives that I think limit it to go to B+, I want to also cover some of the good points of Gligar in why it is where it is.

1. It pairs greatly with Steel
Mons like Empoleon, Cobalion and Escavalier go really well with Gligar in offense and balance because of the coverage the each pairing has to the table. You struggle with dark types? you pair with Coba, struggle with Sylv? add Esca, etc.

2. It has excellent bulk, to deal with many of the physical hitters in UU
Thanks to the eviolite Gligar is a menacing wall, it allows Gligar to take on the hard hitting Steel such as Cobalion at plus 2, Metagross, and non Knock Off orients of escavalier thanks to its 65/105/65. It beats common physical scarfers such as Darmanitan and Mienshao, with the mixed set being 2HKO by darm's Flare Blitz and has OHKO potential after recoil with Earthquake.

And Obviously, 3. It has great use as a defensive pivot, and as a whole a reliable defogger.

However, looking at the negatives, in the state the metagame is I don't believe it warrants a move to B+
;tldr, vague I know at moment, but i'd thought I'd say my thoughts for once
 
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Hilomilo

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The problem with the electric types of this tier is that, as you said before, both Heliolisk and Galvantula have very little to bring to a team defensively. Both can do wonders for offensive teams, but alongside their pitiful bulk, they haven't adjusted well enough to metagame trends to really warrant a rise. Heliolisk has itself in a fantastic speed tier and also possesses a respectable speed tier, but without specs, can be pressure stalled by Suicune, a pokemon that it's used to check, and is extremely vulnerable to things like Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl, and Infernape. While none of these pokemon can switch into Helio's attacks very reliably, Krookodile and Infernape aren't OHKO'd by any attack that Heliolisk commonly carries (even after rocks are up) and Mega Aero can just outspeed the first turn its in unless Helio is scarfed and ohko with an eq or stone edge. Furthermore, Heliolisk doesn't match up well against anything that dropped this may (Conk, Sylv, Celebi) and often suffers from 4mss since it has to sacrifice hyper voice/surf/grass knot for signal beam to bop Celebi. Galvantula has a lot of the same problems, bar Krook, but doesn't have the firepower it needs with or without LO and is completely overshadowed by Heliolisk and Rotom-Mow as a specs user due to its lack of bulk and speed ties with stuff that just beats it like Infernape and Stone Edge Cobalion. Overall, Heliolisk and Galvantula can be very beneficial for offensive teams, but haven't responded to many metagame trends really well and to some really poorly and are just short imo of warranting rises.

Edit: Ignore the Metagross nom that was here before, another user that I'm related to accidentally used this account instead of their own to make the nom, sorry!
 
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Current Slate:

up to S Rank: I was really on the fence with this one, but with Christo's post I'm definitely agreeing with it moving up. Krookodile is definitely S Rank potential, with two really good sets its role compression in some teams as a Pursuit trapper, wallbreaker and Stealth Rock setter is invaluable for some offense squads. Its Choice Band set is not walled at all by Hydreigon like people are saying, due to Superpower, what also invalidates the argument that says that Shuca Berry Empoleon can stop Krookodile. Knock Off is probably the best move in the game actually and Krookodile abuses of it very well, since Pokémon like Sylveon, Conkeldurr, Hydreigon and [insert Pokémon that resists Dark here] can't switch safely in Knock Off due to how they can't abuse of they items. One good example is Sylveon, that is being very vulnerable to any physical or special attacker with its Leftovers removed. I don't think that I need to talk about how Earthquake is ridiculously good. The Stealth Rock set is really good right now too since it can run Taunt to worn down common physical walls like Sylveon and Cresselia or Pursuit, to defeat Chandelure and other frail Pokémon on the switch, not to mention that Rocky Helmet is really good to absorb some physical attacks like Wing Attacks from Mega Aerodactyl or Knock Offs from opposing Krookodile or even Conkeldurr.

up to A-: I was going to agree, but I changed my opinion after reading Panther's post about it. It really struggles against fat teams, and bulky waters like Suicune and Swampert(-Mega) can use it as a setup bait and spread burns without many efforts, I'm not saying that they must rely on Scald to defeat it since its Specially Defensive set is always going to take 3 or 4 hits from them. Its weakness to Fire-types sucks too, what is kind of a really bad thing actually even if its best teammates are Water-types. Imo what maintains Forretress in the B+ rank in the Viability Ranking is the ability of spinning hazards while using Volt Switch to avoid common threats like Entei and Hydreigon, and this is probably one of the only niches that it has over Tentacruel aside of defeating Cleric Sylveon and Celebi in the same Pokémon slot. Thus, Forretress must stay in B+ since the A- rank doesn't really reflects what is in the metagame actually.

up to B+: I'm really agreeing with this nomination. I saw a lot of Open battles with Gligar (specially Killintime battles), and it provides a lot of role compression, just like Empoleon does. Saying that it's not good due to how it's reliant on Eviolite is not wrong, but it isn't a good argument too. Entei is reliant in Choice Band to wallbreak effectively, and it is a S Rank right now. This may not be the best argument, but they are very similar things. Gligar is very effective as a Stealth Rock setter and as a Defogger, not to mention that it is an exceptional check to Fighting-types and even Ground-types, acting as a pivot to strong attackers and/or wallbreakers, such as Celebi, Mega Aerodactyl and Crawdaunt. It has reliable recovery too, what's huge for a hazard setter/remover because they must have longevity. So yeah, I think that a rise to B+ is needed.

up to B: Before Zapdos' rise, Dugtrio was just not good, but right now the metagame has a lot of trends that are favorable to Dugtrio, like Tentacruel's spike in usage, Celebi forcing Pokémon like Entei and Metagross being more used and a lot of other things. This is really good to some offensive archetypes, specially if you are using slow U-Turn/Volt Switch support from Pokémon like Uxie, Gligar, Mandibuzz and Forretress. If you wanna use bulkier archetypes with Dugtrio, Xatu + Shedinja squads are really funny to use, specially when you are using BP Shedinja, what allows the team to have less problems with Entei and Tentacruel. If you wanna have a shorter explanation: Trapping is broken rise Duggy to B. Also I'm tagging PinkDragonTamer here because Dugtrio can't trap Chandelure and Doublade because they are Ghost-types, and Ghost-types can't be trapped by Shadow Tag and Arena Trap (what's unfortunate), and Dugtrio runs Sludge Wave too, so it traps Whimsicott too!

I have no opinion on Mega Banette because I never used it. But if it's being added, C- is the biggest rank that it could reach imo.

Other Nominations:

up to A: I'm definitely disagreeing with this one. Infernape may be good on paper: 105 Attack/Special Attack, 108 Speed and a wide movepool, but it's good only in specific archetypes; the more offensively orientated ones. As a Nasty Plot user, its only advantage over Celebi is having Fire STAB and more speed, but Celebi has a better defensive typing, better bulk and more coverage options than only Grass Knot (that is needed to OHKO some Water-types after one boost). In my opinion what maintains Infernape in the A- Rank is its Choice Band and Choice Scarf set, that are really good right now due to how they abuse of Infernape's Speed and its fast U-Turn, but it isn't enough to push it to the A Rank. It just isn't at the same level of Pokémon like Tentacruel, Cresselia and Mamoswine. It should stay A-.

My Nominations:

up to A: I was thinking to do this nomination a long time ago, but I completely forgot to do it. Swampert is really, really good right now and it's on the most of my teams actually. It's a solid Stealth Rock setter that's able to check most of the spinners and defoggers due to strong STAB moves and Scald. So spinners and defoggers such as Tentacruel, Forretress, Empoleon and Gligar are easily defeated by Swampert. It's probably the most easily fitted Entei answer on offense teams, being able to check it and a plethora of offensive menaces just like Mega Aerodactyl, Cobalion and Gyarados. It's incredibly useful due to how it fulfills roles with ease. Access to Stealth Rock, a great physical bulk and really good STAB moves are pushing Swampert to a higher ranking, and I think that it is enough to an A Rank.
 
krookodile up to S: I, among many other players, have been using Krook more than anything else in the tier and I felt like sharing my thoughts on this nomination despite my rusty english skills and limited time. Krook has been one of the best wallbreakers in the tier for several reasons and the most important one is its ability to support its teammates like no other:
  • Outside of maybe aqua tail mega Aerodactyl, there is no viable fairy or flying resist that Krookodile isn't, in theory, able to remove or severely weaken for its teammates. Its cb set is without a doubt the most effective and simple way of removing and weakening many checks and counters of its teammates, who, with the somewhat recent drops in Sylveon and Celebi, have gotten better and more threatening than ever. Also mega Aerodactyl, yet another S rank mon has been one of the best offensive partners for Krook for a long time, too.
  • Krookodile can also be very threatening just by itself because there are very few mons who can repeatedly switch into banded krook throughout the battle. Mons like Alomomola, Chesnaught, Mandibuzz rip Tangrowth and Gligar can reliably switch into Krookodile but they hate losing their items and, like Christo stated, it is easy to predict what your opponent is going to switch into and you can act accordingly. Those aforementioned mons are also limited to certain types of teams, and offensive teams usually have only Blastoise and whimsicott at best to check it, and luckily for krook, whimsi has recently lost some of its viability due to common trends. Because offensive teams tend to lack krookodile switchins, it manages to get the kills it needs to almost inevitabably.
  • I don't shuca berry Empoleon, Hydreigon and piority mach punch are too troublesome for krookodile because it usually carries superpower to surprise those Empoleon and broken dragons anyways, and krookodile is always paired with either sylveon or crobat to check Conkeldurr and with something to check gyarados and megapert who could set up vs krook. I think the increaced usage of fast Tentacruel is only an indication of how threatening krook has been for the past few months.
  • I don't think Krookodile's speed tier is too big a downside for it, because outside of celebi, it still outspeeds most of the mons it needs to, like Entei, Nidoking, Toxicroak, jolly lucario, Roserade and non scarf chandelure.
  • unlike Entei, it has more than just one viable set and I think its stealth rocks + taunt + rocky helmet set deserves more attention for its ability to cripple Mandibuzz, Gligar, defensive Moltress and it also can prevent forretress (and donphan lol) from spinning and/or setting up some layers of hazards. I would post some replays of this set doing a lot of work, but I didn't have many good ones. You can still search for them with my name if you please, though.
The main reasons for it to potentially stay in A+ however, is that it cannot safely switch into many of the mons it wants to pursuit trap, namely Entei, metagross, nidos, roserade and it needs to be very healthy to trap darmanitan and beedrill, and it needs some investment in defense to trap the latter ( and needs to be non choiced to always trap drill.). Luckily for krook, everyone on the ladder leads with scarf darm and drill.

There is still a lot I would love to say but I'll end it here.​
 

Hogg

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I've mentioned this elsewhere, so I'll c/p some chunks of my arguments there re: Krookodile, Entei and others.

Most of the arguments I've seen for Krookodile rising focus on how easy it is to fit Krookodile on teams, how it puts in work versus most matchups. I've got no argument there. Yes, there's practically no drawback to putting Krook on a team, and it fits on a myriad of playstyles. The same is true about Sylveon, which is probably the single most splashable Pokemon in the tier right now, and almost every argument I've seen for Krook being S-rank would apply to Sylveon as well. To be honest, I think Krook, Entei, Sylveon and (sorta) Conkeldurr are all really hovering in an odd space right now - they're better than the rest of A+, but not as good as the mainstays of S (in particular Hydreigon, Celebi and Suicune - I'll get to MAero in a bit).

Regardless of how good Krook is, I don't think it's at all quite at those levels. The issue to me is not that Krook & Co. are all suddenly S-rank, but that there's a growing gap in the A+/lower S ranks. If we're keeping the ranks as they are, then we're in this sort of odd position where either Krook, Entei and Sylveon stay in the same rank as Mega-Beedrill and Gyarados (which feels wrong), or we move them up and put them in the same rank as Hydra and Celebi (also feels wrong), or we shift the rankings downward and move stuff like Mega-Bee down (which will make many people think we're saying that they got worse, when really it's that the others got better).

But anyhow, while things like Krook and Sylveon are incredibly good at getting their jobs done, and are really crazy splashable, they just plain don't do what Hydreigon/Celebi/Suicune do, which is shape the goddamned metagame around themselves. Hydreigon is just about the hardest Pokemon to switch into in the game, offensively checks a major portion of the tier and more or less singlehandedly forces teams to run a Fairy or trade with Hydreigon every time it comes in. Celebi is the single most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier, has completely changed how every team operates right now, and has the tools to beat just about every one of its "counters." Suicune is rivaled only by Sylveon in the amount of crap it shuts down, while ALSO being probably the second most threatening setup sweeper after Celebi.

As for Mega-Aero... I never thought I'd say this, but Mega-Aerodactyl is kind of suffering right now. It's funny because I still use it more than any other Mega, and it's still crazy good, so it's really hard for me to say that it's getting worse. If anything, you'd think that the rise of things like Celebi would really help it. Pursuit is still a crazy-busted move (let's be real, Pursuit is the only reason anyone should ever be considering moving Krook to S rank), it still checks a ton of shit. So what's the problem? Well, the issue is twofold. First, the kind of HO teams that Mega-Aero particularly excelled against have really started to dwindle in favor of BO teams that are way less threatened by it. Second, there are things that Mega-Aero should check, but it just doesn't. In particular I'm talking about Celebi and Conkeldurr, which take anything Aerodactyl can throw at them when healthy. The fact that they're both popular SHOULD be a selling point for Aero right now, but in practice you need to stack redundant checks to those two because if either of them are healthy, Aerodactyl doesn't actually beat them. It means that Aerodactyl is no longer the emergency button it once was, and often I find I have to sack something else to get chip damage off on Celebi/Conk before I can bring in Aero to revenge. It's still really really amazing, better than anything in A+, but I don't think it's quite at the level of Celebi/Hydra/Suicune.

Speaking of Suicune, here we have the opposite issue. By any reasonable metric, the rise of Conk and Celebi SHOULD mean Suicune drops, but in practice, I've actually found Suicune if anything better than it used to be. Part of this is because unlike Aero, Suicune was actually able to adjust to these drops so that neither one necessarily checkmates it. In particular, more offensive Suicunes have been growing more popular, especially SubCM (including variants such as Vincune, Ice Beam Cune and SubCM Roar), which don't necessarily counter Celebi/Conk but at least mean that Suicune isn't setup bait. Also, teams have been slapping on a Celebi or a Conkeldurr and assuming that they're covered against Suicune, which is something that a well-built team can really take advantage of. As I said above, I think Suicune is the second most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier, and I feel like I've won more games lately with Suicune than with any other Pokemon. It helps that Suicune never really was expected to check shit like offensive Grass types to begin with, so it doesn't actually strain teambuilding to account for Celebi when you're building with Suicune.

Anyhow, that was a really long and convoluted way of saying that I think the rankings look something like this in my head:

BEST OF THE BEST: Celebi, Hydreigon, Suicune
ALMOST THE BEST OF THE BEST: Aerodactyl-Mega
REALLY GODDAMNED GOOD: Sylveon, Krookodile, Entei, Conkeldurr
VERY GOOD: Everything else in A+/A
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So I agree with Hogg completely on the current issue between some of the current A+ mons being better than the rest, but are not quite comparable to the current S-Ranks (ie: Krokodile, Sylveon, Conkeldurr, and Entei mainly) and as such I believe we could possible create either an S- Rank or like a A++ Rank or something. I feel this is plausible due to the fact that the VR should reflect the true comparison between the mons within their respective ranks, and creating a separate rank to help compensate for this disparity. Ik its rather unconventional, but I feel this is an exception to the norm in this case. My current proposition would be as followed:
S Rank:
Hydreigon
Celebi
Suicune

S-Rank:
Mega Aerodactyl
Entei
Krookodile
Sylveon
Conkeldurr

Rest of list....


What are others thoughts?
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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Why does a separate rank need to be made? If the consensus is those pokemon really are better than what's below them but not as good as those above them, and the pokemon above them don't have anywhere to move up to then it's surely logical everything else move down... I don't see the sense of making the rankings look convoluted for something that the ranking is supposed to do, rank pokemon based on their effectiveness to each other. The only time I find an exception to that is in cases of primal groudon in Ubers where something is so obviously out on it's own it needs it's own tier to be accurate.

Also why is mstoise A-? I haven't seen anyone use this in yonks even with how shite hazard removal is in the tier currently because of how lacklustre it tends to play in practice. It's accepted now that the majority of balance will run a fairy, therefore giving them a natural check to stoise, against stall you must be joking if it's doing anything other than spinning as blissey comes in to set rocks back up before dying in a fairly unspectacular manner, offense isn't an awful matchup as played correctly it'll get at least one kill or the spin or both but it's hardly setting the world alight. This would be ok if it brought defensive utility but you can't ever really rely on it to check anything defensively and to spin which is what makes it so lacklustre for me. I just honestly don't see a build that makes me ever think holy shit I wanna use stoise here it's the perfect fit.
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
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Why does a separate rank need to be made? If the consensus is those pokemon really are better than what's below them but not as good as those above them, and the pokemon above them don't have anywhere to move up to then it's surely logical everything else move down... I don't see the sense of making the rankings look convoluted for something that the ranking is supposed to do, rank pokemon based on their effectiveness to each other. The only time I find an exception to that is in cases of primal groudon in Ubers where something is so obviously out on it's own it needs it's own tier to be accurate.

Also why is mstoise A-? I haven't seen anyone use this in yonks even with how shite hazard removal is in the tier currently because of how lacklustre it tends to play in practice. It's accepted now that the majority of balance will run a fairy, therefore giving them a natural check to stoise, against stall you must be joking if it's doing anything other than spinning as blissey comes in to set rocks back up before dying in a fairly unspectacular manner, offense isn't an awful matchup as played correctly it'll get at least one kill or the spin or both but it's hardly setting the world alight. This would be ok if it brought defensive utility but you can't ever really rely on it to check anything defensively and to spin which is what makes it so lacklustre for me. I just honestly don't see a build that makes me ever think holy shit I wanna use stoise here it's the perfect fit.
Because if the differences are notable enough, an additional tier can add objective clarity to conversations such as Krook to S rank.
 

Sam

i say it's all just wind in sails
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Mega Stoise is actually really, really good right now. I don't get you saying it can't check anything reliably when the main selling point is that it can check just about anything. If you can keep it healthy it will win 1v1 vs the majority of the tier. Sylveon exists but it doesn't take Hydro's nearly as well as you think it can and Scald burns annoy it. And why is spinning on Blissey such a bad thing? At least you're gaining something instead of doing 20% to it and switching out.
 

Avant Heim

formerly The Bill Cipher
to B Rank:Agree
At first,i was going to Disagree,but,after reading Mr. Highways's post,i changed my mind.Duggy traps and kills many threats in this meta,some exemples are:Entei,Cobalion,Tentacruel,Infernape,Empoleon,Mamoswine and many others.A mension should be made to the fact that duggy gets Sludge Wave,so he traps Whimsicott
So,for this reasons and Mr. Highways's post,dugtrio should go to B rank
 

Kodiene

Banned deucer.
Does anybody have an opinion on a potential Haxorus rise? It is easily the single most dangerous dder in my opinion, and can shred teams with a single turn. At the same time, I'm newer to this, so not sure.
 

Hilomilo

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Haxorus is a really good pokemon in the current meta, but it also suffers a bit in that it hasn't responded super well to some metagame trends. Before a DD boost, its outsped by Hydreigon, who threatens to OHKO with draco, and is also outsped at +1 by scarf Hydra, which is about as present as LO. Hax is also hurt by the tier's prevalence of fairies, as Sylveon and Florges can come in on an outrage (though you may have to sack something to bring them in safely) and KO with stab fairy attacks. Bulky steels are also on the rise, and a lot, like Escav/Forretress/Aggron, can tank a +1 eq and do major damage back, and then there's the rise in priority espeed, mach punch and shadow sneak that just takes advantage of the thing's low HP which sort of negates its decent physical bulk (theres also intimidate everywhere nowadays). Hax is by no means bad, but can't take on whole teams by itself unless it gets like, 3 dragon dances under its belt, which is definitely a hard thing to do. It's fine where it is, but it's great that you're starting forums here and already sharing your opinions! Keep it up :toast:
 

Pearl

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Hey there! Me and the rest of the team went through the rankings in order to solve some of the current issues with them. We managed to come up with a pretty nice solution, but since it's sort of massive, I feel like it's better to refrain from updating the thread until the next tier shift, since it's the last one before we're done with ORAS and there's a slight chance it ends up changing the metagame a lot, which could invalidate many of the changes that were made.

So yeah, there won't be any updates for a couple of days guys. Sorry about that and thanks for all of the feedback you've been giving in the meantime!
 
I don't quite understand what you guys mean. Are there to be rises or drops before the tier shifts or not? Regardless, you guys have been doing great with the thread, but just wondering if the change in subranks you guys decided to make later is going to keep any changes from happening till then.
 

Josh

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I don't quite understand what you guys mean. Are there to be rises or drops before the tier shifts or not? Regardless, you guys have been doing great with the thread, but just wondering if the change in subranks you guys decided to make later is going to keep any changes from happening till then.
They're waiting to see if anything drops that will majorly affect the vr and make a lot of their changes redundant. Seeing as its only a couple of days away there's no point in massively changing stuff just to have it changed again 2 days later
 
Also why is mstoise A-? I haven't seen anyone use this in yonks even with how shite hazard removal is in the tier currently because of how lacklustre it tends to play in practice. It's accepted now that the majority of balance will run a fairy, therefore giving them a natural check to stoise, against stall you must be joking if it's doing anything other than spinning as blissey comes in to set rocks back up before dying in a fairly unspectacular manner, offense isn't an awful matchup as played correctly it'll get at least one kill or the spin or both but it's hardly setting the world alight. This would be ok if it brought defensive utility but you can't ever really rely on it to check anything defensively and to spin which is what makes it so lacklustre for me. I just honestly don't see a build that makes me ever think holy shit I wanna use stoise here it's the perfect fit.
I just so happen to have that Blissey argument on a replay lol.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-463495438

Bad team and low ladder (LOL) but conceptually, I hope it shows off what it's meant to. Some notes of interest:
1. He lost Chestnaught vs Blastoise not knowing I had Ice Beam. He didn't have to and could've just brought in Blissey. But then would that had given me too much momentum bringing in Entei/Hydreigon vs Blissey?
2. In case you were wondering if Hydreigon was a different set.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 239-282 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As mentioned, Blastoise wins a lot of 1v1s. Thus forcing switches. He can spin WHILE punishing spin blockers (ghost types) and isn't crippled by burn from Will-o-Wisp. That makes him have a niche (and arguably better) vs spinners like Donphan or Tentacruel. In the case of Blastoise vs bulky offensive mons, Scald becomes easily spammable, especially against mons lacking power to KO back. Last note, Lead Blastoise isn't too bad either, he forces switches, leading back to Scald spam.
 
This is literally the 3rd time someone moved Entei up to S, and if history has taught us anything, it will drop back to A+ in a week or two (dingbat ).

Literally very little has changed in the metagame that ultimately justifies an Entei rise. For most, if not all, of Gen VI, Entei has been defined by its CB set and only its CB set, which means it really doesn't have many secondary options to bypass its fundamental checks and counters. GC's post validates Entei's position in A+ (something we've known for a long time already), but not for S.

One thing that really hampers Entei is that it needs hazard control to actually maximize its effectiveness. As a Pokemon that will switch out often to switch moves (note its two most important moves, ESpeed and Sacred), it needs no hazards on its side of the field to max its effectiveness. This in turn limits what type of teams it can be on and is not as flexible of a pick for wallbreaker/stallbreaker as the rest of the S, even with Sacred Fire.

The ability to hit things hard with STAB and then potentially burn them afterwards certainly is a redeeming quality that is highly-valued, but its one-dimensional existence is what breaks the deal. Maybe if it had secondary types, better coverage, or just some actual variation in its utilization, then maybe it deserves a spot in S.

and as dod said, please don't bandwagon just because a good UU player made the nom. pif wants U-Turn banned as a move and Lucario at A+ or S because it's "technically uncounterable", but you don't see people jumping on those ideas.


Also, nomination: Swampert to B+:

For the longest time, I've always thought regular Pert and MegaPert occupied two extremely different niches. The former operated as a tank while the latter a late-game sweeper. I've been out of the meta for roughly two months (post-Mence ban), but I can still pick up pretty easily because this tier virtually never changes.

Back to the point. As I was perusing through some of the Showcase teams as well as some interesting ladder matchups, MegaPerts seem to be used more defensively now. Although there's the whole argument of "it takes up a Mega slot yada-yada", I really think that MegaPert somewhat outclasses its base form when it comes to the role of a bulky Water.
 
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Yanmega to C+ or B-

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this when I'm relatively new to the forums, but...

I strongly feel that speed boost Yanmega is less situational than Zoroark, Weezing, Linda, Hoopa, Slurpuff, and Umbreon in this meta. Let's look at S Rank and A+, which are spammed to a ridiculous extent on the ladder. For the sake of my argument, I'll be using

Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain

It always scares out LO and specs Hydreigon and can't be revenged by scarf due to the +1 when Hydra comes in. You beat celebi every time(even with HP investment and tanga berry). You beat cune at +0 or +1 with giga drain. You oho all non-sash krook's with bug buzz and all but max hp rocky helmet with giga drain. Banded Entei takes 56-65% from air slash, thus needs very little chip after rocks. To be fair, if rocks are up on both sides, it has a 68% chance of getting the espeed kill(which is still not very reliable). Bee can mega on you but is then scared out. Even with rocks, yanmega revenges Conk easily. I don't advocate running AV conk, but even that still takes 7x-8x from an air slash, and +6 bulk up does about 24% max with mach punch. Due to usage, I think Cresselia and Cobalion need to be mentioned as well. Air slash 2hko's cobalion while it can't 2hko back without stone edge. +0 Defensive CM Cress takes 6x-8x from bug buzz as well.

Cleaning with this set is ideal, but I feel scaring out most of the biggest threats in the meta, being extremely fast with decent hard-hitting coverage, and being able to beat a lot of it's checks with chip deserves some recognition.

I am not advocating Yanmega for even flat B, i just think it is more viable than a lot of C+ and a few B- mons in this meta. I have reached 90 gxe with yanmega teams on the ladder in xy, and mence ORAS meta. I haven't finished laddering, but I've currently peaked with a Yanmega team at 1720, 86.7gxe in the current meta on "Coming Up Tho". I primarily run it as a less slow (than sylveon) conkeldurr check or to clean against HO.

Entei:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 207-243 (55.7 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 149-176 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Suicune:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 126-148 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Celebi:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tanga Berry Celebi: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 195-229 (62.3 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (accounting for scarf sets)


Hydreigon:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 424-502 (130 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Conkeldurr:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 216 HP / 236+ SpD Conkeldurr: 307-367 (75.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 16 Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 66-78 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 307-367 (74.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Cresselia:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 307-367 (69.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
I feel like goodra should drop to ru since not only is it not used that much, but its really outclassed by alot of mons in this meta. Although it has good spe def, other mojs like snorlax also have good sped def and are better in other stats than goodra. plus, other dragons such as hydregon and haxourus are more commonly used in this meta than goodra will ever be.
 

Hogg

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Welcome to Smogon!

I agree that Goodra is largely outclassed in UU, especially by Hydreigon, which is why it is currently ranked C in the Viability Rankings. C rank means that something might have a niche on some teams, but often is either outclassed or requires so much support that the average team will prefer using a different 'mon. That said, unless its usage drops below its current rate, it will remain UU rather than RU, as our tier is based off of usage.

Thanks for posting, and I hope you enjoy UU.
 
Welcome to Smogon!

I agree that Goodra is largely outclassed in UU, especially by Hydreigon, which is why it is currently ranked C in the Viability Rankings. C rank means that something might have a niche on some teams, but often is either outclassed or requires so much support that the average team will prefer using a different 'mon. That said, unless its usage drops below its current rate, it will remain UU rather than RU, as our tier is based off of usage.

Thanks for posting, and I hope you enjoy UU.
thanks but isnt goodra's usgae currently around the 4 percent which i heard is around the area of a drop? just curious.
 

Kodiene

Banned deucer.
The best way to explain it is that the usage is low, so it may be eligible for a drop. However, we don't nominate it for one, it just happens due to the low usage.
 

Hilomilo

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Yanmega is by no means a bad pokemon, but it's nowhere near good enough to rise. This was just recently discussed and any recent arguments made against it rising are still relevant. Yanmega's speed boost and tinted lens sets are both pretty neat, but are riddled with flaws that keep it from being put to full use almost ever. Yanmega on your team means you'll need spinning or defog support since it has that nasty rocks weakness, which doesn't seem all to bad until you realize that it has terrible defensive synergy with almost any means of hazard control. Pairing it with literally any spinner or defogger in the tier will stack weaknesses on your team and force you to build around Yanmega and the hazard controller to find switchins to their shared weaknesses. Yanmega is also extremely lacking in terms of defensive utility for its team, as it has no access to decent bulk or status moves (unlike the better choice in Venomoth) and can't even fit status into its movepool anyway. Speaking of Venomoth, it's almost ALWAYS a better option for your team, as it has a better defensive typing, access to sleep powder/stun spore, and essentially both of Yanmega's abilities with tinted lens and quiver dance (which does more than just boost its speed). Yanmega also has a lot of bad matchups vs the tier if it's using either of its abilities. Overall, the ability to click protect on Yanmega and outspeed a large portion of the tier is pretty great, but it's terrible bulk and defensive synergy with required teammates and lack of immediate power (2hkoing Conk with stab air slash isn't all that impressive considering it's a fighting type) and a plethora of other flaws that Venomoth does a better job compensating for. Again, it isn't bad, but is perfectly fine where it is, as a 4x weakness to stealth rock and the other above-mentioned flaws should automatically make it as situational as stuff like Zoroark and Slurpuff (which are actually way easier to use and don't require as much support).

On another note, I think that a reordering of the A- ranks could be done to better reflect the current metagame. Snorlax seems a little too high, given its vulnerability to the tier's multitude of fighting types (especially the most prevalent one in Conk) and the fact that it's harder than ever for it to do its job with all the status going around right now. Infernape and Mega Blastoise should both be higher too, since Infernape's banded and scarfed sets have increased greatly in viability lately and fit well onto just about any offensive archetype (it's also the essential Ditto of UU with its multitude of amazing sets that have been consistently good), and Mega Blastoise just 1v1s so many things in the meta and forces a ridiculous amount of switches, it's just proven more effective over time. Mega Shark seems a little high, given it's inability to respond to any metagame trends well has finally started hampering it, and Crobat could also go up a place or two with its impressive diversity between offensive and defensive sets (best defogger in the tier too, which is saying something). Lastly, there's Heracross, which I already thought would have dropped to B+ by now due to how much harder its life is nowadays (@Conkeldurr) but if its not dropping it should at least go under Alo.
 
a debatably decent niche for heracross that i found a while ago is that its a somewhat decent fighting type switch in, aka can switch into conkeldurr's drain punch or knock off decently well, and start setting up with SD to threaten conk out. don't know if that in itself is even a good enough reason to use heracross LOL but interesting niche!!!
 

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