ORAS Ubers Analysis Index (See Post #394)

[Hack]

I did a sweep of what we currently have on site and here are the things I found worth bringing up. I am not arguing for their viability, merely pointing out things that are commonly used (or what should / can be used) that aren't reflected in the analyses.


Arceus-Normal: No Adamant slash or mention of Adamant + Life Orb, no Recover slash or moves mentions

Arceus-Dark: The recently finished Perish set is not up yet

Arceus-Dragon: The introduction is a weird copy paste of the two introductions that were made for it: the original which was done from the perspective of its offensive sets and the new one that was written for the support set. The introduction should be re-written so that it flows much better and communicates that the support set is somewhat common while the offensive sets are rare and often unexpected threats

Arceus-Fairy: Slashing Toxic after Earth Power on the Recover + 3 Attacks set (requires the set name to be changed as well)

Arceus-Fighting: Making Stone Edge mandatory and slashing Ice Beam with Thunder Wave

Arceus-Ghost: Ordering the sets as SD > CM > Support. Redoing the CM set to feature Substitute

Arceus-Grass: Adding a set that is 4 Attacks or Recover + 3 Attacks. It has a CM set that may want to be replaced by this

Arceus-Ground: No moves mention of Extreme Speed, no Judgment + Ice Beam set

Arceus-Water: No Timid Slash

Blaziken: Slashing Life Orb over Mega Stone, moving Baton Pass from moves to a slash

Darkrai: Slashing the final moveslot as Thunder / Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast. Slashing Focus Sash after Life Orb. Sucker Punch in OO

Deoxys-A: Eliminating HP Fire slash and moving it to OO. Making Ice Beam the first slash on 3rd moveset. EV spread changed to 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe / Rash slashed with Naive (current spread is slower than Mega Gengar when using a SpA+ nature). This one may require a full revamp

Dialga: Making the offensive set the first, then the support set second. The Choice Scarf set should have Sleep Talk unslashed. No Trick Room set (it is in OO at least)

Giratina-O: Toxic slash with Draco Meteor on the Hex set

Primal Groudon: This could benefit from a full revamp, the content isn't blatantly wrong but I think the sets and all the EV spreads / move sets could be reorganized. Also no SpD spread and no use of Rest outside of OO

Ho-Oh: Tweaking EV spreads. No mention of Substitute

Mega Kangaskhan: No Adamant slash (should be first). Slashing Crunch before Sucker Punch

Klefki: No Dazzling Gleam mention not even OO

Primal Kyogre: Making the order of sets Defensive > CM > Physical. Slashing Ice Beam before Blizzard on CM. Slashing Thunder Wave on CM. Perhaps a full revamp of the CM set instead and renaming it Offensive

Mega Mawile: No mention of Foul Play outside of OO

Mega Salamence: Doing a full revamp. Otherwise cleaning up the EV spreads and move sets a bit and updating descriptions on a whole

Xerneas: Update the coverage slashing for the first set. Sweep rejected the idea of Rest + Geo getting a set, but at the very least it should be in OO (set apart from the Block mention)

Yveltal: Moving Knock Off to moves or even a slash on the first set

I just saw this and while I ageee with some of it there are things that are incorrect here as well.

Focus blast is not slash-worthy on darkrai.

4 atk grassceus is not only bad (ofc since grassceus sucks), it is certainly worse than ib+se+recover+gknot anyway. Fire blast only hits targets easy to exploit anyway and there are still variants of mons (such as pdon w/o fire move) that grassceus wall. Take special note of its match up vs diancie, why go all dong when there is stuff you can handle?

I would probably even unslash blazikenite tbf.

Scarf dialga shouldn't even be a set imo.

Idk what to feel about rest xern. For me it's more of a poor excuse to try to cheese autowins vs some teams (and having really horrible match ups vs others) than anything. A good player can utilize a set with more options without having to be bad in as many match ups. Rest talk xern doesn't really fit on as many teams as people think. It is still used shitloads which makes for an interesting situation here. Ill go through nayrz comment later

 

[Minority]

Assuming we agree on revamping Primal Groudon I would like to write it. Please comment on the set order I've come up with so far:

~ Offensive Stealth Rock
~ Defensive Stealth Rock
~ Rock Polish
~ Mixed Rock Polish
~ Paradancer
~ Swords Dance + Stealth Rock
~ Rest

Non Primal Groudon in OO

 

[Sweep]

~ Offensive Stealth Rock
~ Defensive Stealth Rock
~ Rock Polish
~ Swords Dance + Stealth Rock
~ Mixed Rock Polish
~ Paradancer
~ Rest

Is how I have it. I really am not impressed with paradancer, as much as I like TWave on primal groudon, it can break through stuff like Water Arceus and potentially Lugia without Thunder Wave and SR is too good to pass up on sets lacking RP IMO.

 

[Inspirited]

Just to clarify
Offensive SR is Twave / Stone Edge or Rock Slide / Blades / SR
Defensive SR is Plume / Rock move or Dragon Tail / Blades / SR

I was kinda confused by this earlier and I am sure I am not the only one

 

[TheGooeyGastrodon]

Hi! I'm kinda new to the whole reservation thing, so please tell me if I'm doing it wrong. However, I feel that these two Pokemon deserve an analysis and, as such, I will argue for their cause. Feel free to disagree with my ideas, as they can't all be right knowing me.

Hippowdon

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Stone Edge / Toxic

Hippowdon beats most of the tier in a 1 on 1 scenario, only losing against very powerful special attackers and Bronzong. With Slack Off, Toxic and Sandstorm, Hippowdon can significantly damage opponents whilst healing its health. Essentially, a Pokemon must either 1. Set up on Hippowdon and attempt to wallbreak, which, despite Hippos low offensive presence, will usually result in one status-crippled wallbreaker or 2. Deal over 50% of Hippowdon max HP as damage to it in one turn, which is practically impossible for almost all Physical Pokemon. Hippowdon has its downsides in its SpD stat, Speed and low offensive presence, but it really is a good Pokemon, which is why I think it deserves an analysis.

Weavile

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

This Pokemon might not be as open and closed as the other, but I certainly believe that it is viable. With Rocks, this Pokemon can OHKO Shaymin-S, Rayquaza, Flygon and Lando-T with Ice Shard alone, and outspeeds and KOs Mega Salamence (and the above W/O Rocks up), too. It also does a decent amount of damage to Lugia with Knock Off, which forces it to forego Leftovers recovery. Low Kick allows Weavile to deal with Mega Kangaskan, Arceus and even Darkrai after Dark Void, KOing or dealing a large amount of damage to the above. Ice Shard is useful in general, as it allows Weavile to revenge kill a large amount of Pokemon due to Ubers containing a large roster of well-used Dragon and Flying types. Weaviles great typing let's it hit popular Pokemon including Ghost-ceus, Giratina-O and Lati@s for large amounts of damage, securing itself as a way to defeat them on teams. Although it's weak to faster mons, fighting types and priority, I feel Weavile has enough of a niche to justify an analysis.

I know neither of these mons are S rank material, but I do believe they have a place in the Ubers SmogDex. Thanks for reading!

 

[Fireburn]

Hippowdon beats most of the tier in a 1 on 1 scenario

This is pretty blatantly false, I'm afraid. You should probably downgrade "very powerful special attackers" to just "special attackers," almost anything in ORAS Ubers with a decent special attack (or Mega Sableye, or anything semibulky with Toxic) can handle Hippowdon no problem and it can't really handle the best physical Pokemon too well either:

+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 354-417 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon in Harsh Sunshine: 240-283 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 158-188 (43 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I could go on but I think you get the idea. Hippowdon is also a pretty bad Stealth Rock user since it can't threaten any Defog or Bouncers due to its poor Speed, SpD, and low offensive presence, all of which you already mentioned and all of which you admitted. Toss in competition it faces from Primal Groudon, Landorus-T, and Ground Arceus and Hippowdon just can't really find a niche, Slack Off doesn't make up for its cons. Going to have to say "no" to giving Hippowdon an ORAS analysis.

Weavile is also rather underwhelming despite what it's typing might suggest. Made of glass, damage output is disappointing (Primal Groudon is only 4HKOed, Primal Kyogre and fat Arc formes easily wall, Klefki is everywhere and easily walls), Ice Shard utility isn't as good in practice as it is on paper (Rayquaza will just kill you with ESpeed, Mega Salamence isn't reliably OHKOed with SR up...), and severe competition with Darkrai who is just as fast but packs actual sweeping potential. It really just doesn't have enough of a niche to justify wasting a teamslot on it, Deoxys-A can make room for Pursuit if you really need a fast 'n frail trapper with priority. Also:

Low Kick allows Weavile to deal with Mega Kangaskan, Arceus and even Darkrai after Dark Void

This isn't happening in a realistic scenario. Kanga and Arceus will slay Weavile with priority before it can act, and Darkrai is not only a speed tie but also isn't OHKOed at full HP while it can KO Weavile back with +2 Sludge Bomb or Thunder.

Sorry to bust your bubble but these mons just aren't good in the current metagame.

 

[soviet]

can i reserve metagross

 

[Minority]

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/metagross/uber/

 

[sammao]

Dear Uber Mod and everyone. I would like to suggest Wallceus. In fact, I have posted my explanation here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...s-sets-v4-gimmicks-not-welcome.3569569/page-2

Below is copied from what I wrote:

Arceus @ Leftovers
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Hp / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Wil-O-Wisp/ Toxic
- Judgement
- Defog/Roar/Reflect

Wallceus is Super underrated! This thing only has one uncommon weakness(fighting) and able to hold leftovers is a HUGE plus over a similar support Arceus form like Water or Dragon. It can perform the defog duties of said Water and Dragon Arceus. I usually prefer Wil-O-Wisp over Toxic as it can burn anything not name Groudon or Ho-oh, such as Mega-Kanga and Salamence, but Toxic can still be used to hit the two mons. If your team don't need defog support, you can use sth else like roar to phaze or reflect to troll physical Monster. Every time you stall with recover or switch in to shadow force, you also get Leftovers recovery. Really, I cannot emphasize how useful the leftovers is. I think the reason why this wasn't used more often is because of Taunt Mega-Gengar. But Taunt isn't very common on Gengar these day, also you should always pair this with a Tyranitar to pursuit trap it. I found this is best used in a full stall team, with Lugia as partner you theoretically wall everything physical. Also, most opponent I faced don't expect Wil-O-Wisp or a SUPER bulky Normal Arceus, and so you can surprise your opponent too.Try this on your team with Arceus Water or Dragon, you maybe surprised by its performance!

I believe that Wallceus do deserve an analysis on site. However, I am not a native English speaker myself and don't feel confident to write it. If QC think this is viable, then please pass this to someone. I would love to see it onsite, thanks!

 

[aurora]

3 Attacks Arceus-Grass seems to be 'in vogue' (i.e. better than its other sets). Can I write an analysis on it? It would use Grass Knot / Stone Edge / Ice Beam / Recover.

 

[Sweep]

^ thats my nigga right there

y but slash fire blast w/ stone edge

 

[Lord Outrage]

if someone can put the hex set at the top instead of the physical set for giratina-o Nayrz. The best set by far is the special set and is what makes giratina-o so good in the meta.

 

[Minority]

If you're going to bother with a set re-order Mega Gengar needs one far more. Set order should be:

- Hex Trapper
- Hypnosis
- Offensive Trapper
- Perish Trapper

Also CB Yveltal needs an analysis.

Mega Salamence could still use a revamp.

 

[Nayrz]

submitted a bunch of stuff, changelog:

gira-o should now have the special set first
gengar got a re-order and hypnosis slashed on hex
seems that the darkrai set name reported earlier has been fixed already
ho-oh should now have its cb set first
re-ordered kyogre's sets and slightly fixed cm set slashing
moved xern's specs set above all out attacker
dialga should now have the offensive set renamed + 1st set, scarf was removed, support renamed to specially defensive
removed cm dragon arceus set

edit: these are now on site

adding things like faster/different EV spreads and other stuff like new moves that involve changing prose or adding new writing is very hard to do, as i can't just add stuff not checked by the GP team (and its a hassle for both parties to get a GP on just a few lines)

as for new stuff that needs done:

cb yveltal (set) (Fireburn has reserved)
bulky ekiller (set) < the refresh set will be removed for it once done (reserved by Californium)
mega kangaskhan (full revamp) < Still Available
blaziken (full revamp) < not exactly high priority but hey (0kay has taken this)
i think arceus-water needs a more indepth and high quality analysis, so i guess thats a revamp (Nayrz is doing this)
salamence revamp is still up there, as current onsite stuff needs a polish up for today's usage of the mon overall (WreckDra is doing this)

tagging Fireburn to double check and make sure these show on site

 

[Fireburn]

I'll do CB Yveltal.

 

[Inspirited]

I'll take the borked dragon.

 

[LucosDiCampos]

I might be able to do the kanga if you'd like Nayrz.
If so, it would be after the coming week though, very busy with rl stuff.

 

[0kay]

I can do blaziken you just gotta tell me what sets you want and in what order.

 

[oversway]

oras is drawing to a close but nominating Arceus-Poison for an sd and offensive utiliy set. The sd set can function as a late game sweeper with earthquake/espeed coverage, which hits most of the tier for at least neutral damage, and also has a nifty 30% chance to poison. An added bonus is this set counters most Xerneas sets and can 1v1 Lugia, something few physical attackers can do. if carrying recover, it can also beat most support arceus 1v1. the offensive utility set, basically ice beam over swords dance, can be mentioned in oo.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

If I wanted an sd arceus that could beat Lugia and Xerneas why wouldn't I just use Steel? Better defensive typing, and can ohko ho-oh with +2 stone edge

 

[oversway]

by needing to run stone edge you're giving up on either earthquake or espeed, which either allows pdon to easily counter it or faster attackers, such as darkrai/deo, to revenge kill you. there is also no defensive arceus that beats poisonceus that doesn't also beat steelceus (groundceus) while steelceus will have trouble breaking waterceus. a 30% chance to poison is also more useful early-mid game than a 30% chance to flinch. steelceus also packs a weakness to fire and fighting, and can't reliably deal with focus blast geoxern.

 

[Freeroamer]

Because it doesn't beat Xern, +2 Focus ends you whereas Arc-Poison whatever it's other faults, can switch into the Xern now Psyshock is obsolete as coverage. fwiw I don't think either of them are good enough to go on site but if it was one or the other it'd be Poison imo because living a hit from a +2 Xern is that huge.

 

[Cynara]

I'll write up the Bulky Ekiller set if it still needs the revamp

 

[Nayrz]

Bulky ekiller is still in the running so go ahead.

Kang seems to have been ditched by its previous reserver so that's back up for anyone

I'll grab QC opinions on SD Poisonceus and repost an approval/denial, however finding writers so late into a gen is difficult so that may influence things.

 

[oversway]

I'll do kang then