ORAS Ubers Analysis Index (See Post #394)

Aberforth

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Yo Lead Exca has no analysis. I'll take it if its approved, but with the spoiler being the other options, it could probably do with a full revamp.

 
in light of the ou suspect requesting a hoopa-u reservation should it be banned; it performs well vs more defensive teams and can pose a big threat with adequate team support
 
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i've had a couple people ask me about reserving potentially banned ou mons and i said "nothing until its banned" so it would be unfair to give you it

so i gotta just say wait till the suspect result is announced, first to reserve after its confirmed banned can write, those that missed can provide input in the thread for it

sweep/fireburn can add their input if they want cause idt we have a specific rule for it

although i do appreciate the enthusiasm!
 
Hi! I don't know much about current Ubers analysises, so I'm going to post a mon I think should get one who are not blacklisted here. I'm short on time ATM, so I'll post some more later.

Because of this set


Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake/Sleep Talk
- Iron Head

Defensively, Terrakion is the Ubers equivalent of Abomasnow because of its typing. Offensively, however, Terrakion can take out a large majority of the tier 1 on 1, then switch out for use later. Though Close Combat's stat drops are left out of the calcs I made, this mon can, with its coverage, KO a lot of significantly threatening mons. I'll show some calcs. Reliance on stone edge let it down, as does its def, but I still think its worth it.

Adamant Terrakion, after rocks, has a 75% chance to OHKO E-killer, can 2HKO all mence versions (and Jolly isn't far behind but also outspeeds after DD meaning it usually wins 1 on 1.) OHKOs Ho-oh always, outspeeds and destroys all Darkrai without an unbroken sash, defeats gengar upon mega evo with e-quake, and even does reasonable damage against P-don, potentailly 2HKOing certain variants and picking the rest off after spikes or previous damage quite well.

I'll do some more calcs in my (hopeful) next post, but seeya for now!



EDIT: (Only minor so I'm doing it as an edit instead of a post) Slashing sleep talk with E-quake. Sleep talk allows a Darkrai switch, but makes it weaker against G-don and potentailly fail at OHKOing Gengar. Thanks to the reply for this.
 
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i'd need to see some discussion from other qc as i have not personally used terrakion or even watched it being used successfully. made 0 appearances in upl afaik and has featured on one rmt on a team stacked with gimmicks so saying "holy shit, thats a goof" as if to say this mon is very good and should have had one by now is uhhh... not enough to prove any points.

And trust me, Terrakion is unranked for a reason. If you don't believe me, take a moment to consider what will happen if you ever click Close Combat against your typical HO team (Mega Mence DDs, you lose) or balance team (Hex MGar gets a free switch, you most likely lose).
fireburn doesn't seem to like it.

hack also called it a gimmick mon in that thread.

i'm gonna have to talk with other QC or see if they post here before considering this, as im on the fence myself.
 

Fireburn

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re: Hoopa-U

It blows pretty hard against everything but stall so save the analysis for when/if it actually is banned.

re: Terrakion

I just can't recommend it as a "good vs HO Scarfer" when said teams have so many ways to punish choicelocked Fighting attacks (Xern, Mence, Gar, SD Ghostceus, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, take your pick really), which is what you will want to be using most of the time so you don't get swept by dudes like EKiller and Darkrai. The fact that PDon can set up on it regardless of what move it decides to use is also a point against it, and its performance is pretty garbage against all the balance squads with PDon + bulky Arceus + Ghost. Not seeing the appeal on this one.
 
re: Hoopa-U

It blows pretty hard against everything but stall so save the analysis for when/if it actually is banned.

re: Terrakion

I just can't recommend it as a "good vs HO Scarfer" when said teams have so many ways to punish choicelocked Fighting attacks (Xern, Mence, Gar, SD Ghostceus, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, take your pick really), which is what you will want to be using most of the time so you don't get swept by dudes like EKiller and Darkrai. The fact that PDon can set up on it regardless of what move it decides to use is also a point against it, and its performance is pretty garbage against all the balance squads with PDon + bulky Arceus + Ghost. Not seeing the appeal on this one.

I'll argue some more for Terrakion ;). It is definitely good vs HO as a scarfer (IMO better than things like Ditto, which are already analysed) but I'll try to find some more stuff. First of all, it can potentially win Lugia 1 on 1 if it doesn't roost after stealth rock by 2HKOing it with a jolly set or OHKOing it (30 % chance) with adamant. Veeeery good that (it sounded better in my mind ;) ). However, scarf probably isn't the most amazing set (but usable) so I'll look for some more:



Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake/Sleep Talk
- Iron Head

Not my main point, but this thing can wreck certain teams. After rocks you'll find it OHKOing Lugia after rocks or 2HKOing including multiscale, 2HKOing P-don variants, 50% OHKO chance on Zekrom, doesn't even need e-quake for gengar anymore, defeats all dialga in a hit, RIP E-killer and Kangaskan, Klefki bites the dust, 1-2 hitKOing all Kyogres, and OHKOing megamence. Even Skarmony dies...


Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Taunt/Sleep Talk/Substitute/Coverage

Welp, Excadrill has lead potential so.... Fairly simple and explanatory lead, good in practise, too. E quake is and option for P-don too.

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 28 Def / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Taunt

This is my set-up set thing. Swords dance and stabs (potential e-quake here) and anti-stall make it quite effective. Set up should only be done if you're against Ho-oh or something that'll switch out. The speed allows it to outspeed neutral speed arceus, to ko with close combat. The set can be adapted to an adamant nature too.

Those are my sets so far. Terrakion has a sense of unpredictability, which can make it very dangerous due to the sets beating certain mons which you may usually use. Please, think carefully about this (or I'll post an assault vest set or whatever ;) )
 
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No, scarf is the only thing that would ever be considered for an analysis. It's niche stems from being able to check Darkrai, Arc-Normal and some Mence in the same slot. Any other set removes from this niche. It might be slightly forgiveable if it could switch into Ho-oh Brave Bird but its Fighting typing sadly prevents that. While CB admittedly hits very hard, the same things as before take advantage of Choice locked Terrakion especially when it's locked into Close Combat(Mence, Gar, Xern) and it now doesn't really offer any checking duties.

I don't even think Scarf has enough niche for an analysis because I simply can't imagine how I'd fit this on a team and cover all the avenues for potential set ups without saying "I'm not gonna give those away" which never really works out in practice.
 
No, scarf is the only thing that would ever be considered for an analysis. It's niche stems from being able to check Darkrai, Arc-Normal and some Mence in the same slot. Any other set removes from this niche. It might be slightly forgiveable if it could switch into Ho-oh Brave Bird but its Fighting typing sadly prevents that. While CB admittedly hits very hard, the same things as before take advantage of Choice locked Terrakion especially when it's locked into Close Combat(Mence, Gar, Xern) and it now doesn't really offer any checking duties.

I don't even think Scarf has enough niche for an analysis because I simply can't imagine how I'd fit this on a team and cover all the avenues for potential set ups without saying "I'm not gonna give those away" which never really works out in practice.
Admittedly, scarf is probably the best but I still think any of the sets have the ability to be used well. Also band an lo defeat arceus-n, band is better on mence due to OHKoing it and most of the sets can run sleep talk as a replacement. Scarf-wise, the choice-lock is a problem and I'd suggest having a bulky mon so you can switch out to reset it or simply stating to be careful spamming the stabs. The choice sets are better late-game once the mentioned mons are gone, or as a lure for them. I really feel Terrakion deserves analysing, especially over things like forretress and ditto.
 

Fireburn

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Admittedly, scarf is probably the best but I still think any of the sets have the ability to be used well. Also band an lo defeat arceus-n, band is better on mence due to OHKoing it and most of the sets can run sleep talk as a replacement. Scarf-wise, the choice-lock is a problem and I'd suggest having a bulky mon so you can switch out to reset it or simply stating to be careful spamming the stabs. The choice sets are better late-game once the mentioned mons are gone, or as a lure for them. I really feel Terrakion deserves analysing, especially over things like forretress and ditto.
Band Terrakion is slower than Jolly EKiller and Salamence after DD and will simply die to them. It does not check them at all.

Scarf is not worth using when so many things turn it into a liability. At least Ditto actually has a good matchup against the types of teams it is designed to beat (mindless HO).
 
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Band Terrakion is slower than Jolly EKiller and Salamence after DD and will simply die to them. It does not check them at all.

Scarf is not worth using when so many things turn it into a liability. At least Ditto actually has a good matchup against the types of teams it is designed to beat (mindless HO).
I, for one, run adamant e-killer-is jolly popular? Terrakion still beats adamant and jolly without earthquake. It can also ohko mence, but needs to switch in on a roost or refresh before setup. For what you said about many things making it a liability, Xern, Mence, Gar, SD Ghostceus, Mewtwo and Rayquaza can switch into close combat, yes, but mence and quaza dislike stone edge which can lure then, Gengar before mega doesn't seem to punish a switch unless I'm missing something (I heard shadow tag doesn't work turn 1, but havent tested), and since terrakion A) should be used late game imo and B) one of its main switches is to stop e-killer, ghostceus is usually easy to predict and punish on switch. Mewtwo and xern are problrms, but Mewtwo has quite a few common checks you can use for team support with Terrakion to switch and Xern can almost always be predicted and iron-headed or switched. Another option is to run roar on one of the other sets, and screw it over post-geomancy. Again, I suggest careful usage of the stabs. Terrakion requires prediction and skilful playing (and stone edge hax occasionally), but it is a worthy teammember to consider.
 

Fireburn

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I, for one, run adamant e-killer-is jolly popular? Terrakion still beats adamant and jolly without earthquake. It can also ohko mence, but needs to switch in on a roost or refresh before setup. For what you said about many things making it a liability, Xern, Mence, Gar, SD Ghostceus, Mewtwo and Rayquaza can switch into close combat, yes, but mence and quaza dislike stone edge which can lure then, Gengar before mega doesn't seem to punish a switch unless I'm missing something (I heard shadow tag doesn't work turn 1, but havent tested), and since terrakion A) should be used late game imo and B) one of its main switches is to stop e-killer, ghostceus is usually easy to predict and punish on switch. Mewtwo and xern are problrms, but Mewtwo has quite a few common checks you can use for team support with Terrakion to switch and Xern can almost always be predicted and iron-headed or switched. Another option is to run roar on one of the other sets, and screw it over post-geomancy. Again, I suggest careful usage of the stabs. Terrakion requires prediction and skilful playing (and stone edge hax occasionally), but it is a worthy teammember to consider.
Jolly EKiller has been significantly and consistently more common than Adamant EKiller, on ladder and tours. Earthquake is also its most common coverage move. The odds of beating a random EKiller with non-Scarf Terrakion are quite poor.

Yeah you can click Stone Edge, but that doesn't really address the issue. The problem with using Scarf Terrakion against offense is:

1) Terrakion needs Close Combat to do its primary job (kill Arceus/Darkrai) since Stone Edge kills neither
2) Choiced Close Combat is not safe to use because of all the dangerous crap that can punish it on offense teams (could mean giving Gengar a free Mega, Salamence a free DD, etc)
3) Pretty much every team has one Pokemon that can punish Terrakion regardless of what it decides to do (Primal Groudon)

The inability to use Close Combat safely directly inhibits Scarf Terrakion's usefulness. It is inferior to other Scarfers since it lacks consistent methods of becoming setup fodder (U-turn) and does not have a safe, accurate STAB move to spam (Xerneas). It cannot do its primary job reliably due to the massive risks involved with Choice-locked Fighting attacks in the metagame, the ultimate result being that Terrakion opens up more holes than it patches up which is why it sucks.
 
Jolly EKiller has been significantly and consistently more common than Adamant EKiller, on ladder and tours. Earthquake is also its most common coverage move. The odds of beating a random EKiller with non-Scarf Terrakion are quite poor.

Yeah you can click Stone Edge, but that doesn't really address the issue. The problem with using Scarf Terrakion against offense is:

1) Terrakion needs Close Combat to do its primary job (kill Arceus/Darkrai) since Stone Edge kills neither
2) Choiced Close Combat is not safe to use because of all the dangerous crap that can punish it on offense teams (could mean giving Gengar a free Mega, Salamence a free DD, etc)
3) Pretty much every team has one Pokemon that can punish Terrakion regardless of what it decides to do (Primal Groudon)

The inability to use Close Combat safely directly inhibits Scarf Terrakion's usefulness. It is inferior to other Scarfers since it lacks consistent methods of becoming setup fodder (U-turn) and does not have a safe, accurate STAB move to spam (Xerneas). It cannot do its primary job reliably due to the massive risks involved with Choice-locked Fighting attacks in the metagame, the ultimate result being that Terrakion opens up more holes than it patches up which is why it sucks.
Admittedly, a lot of good E-killers use Jolly, but there are only just over 35% on the set usage stats (but 50% unlisted sets too due to them having different evs or nature). 75% of them do run e-quake, but, if we said 60% of ceus' were jolly and 75% run e-quake, there still is, upon estimation, a good 20% or so band terrakion stops flat (just an educated guess based on usage and what I saw in testing).

Scarf Terrakion usually needs CC, yes, and choiced CC is potentially risky, but 1) It is pretty obvious if your opponent will switch, usually and 2) If they DO keep switching on you and whatnot, you can run mons which stop them. Xerneas or Gengar trouble? Aegislash can stop them easily, alongside another dozen for each one. Ice shard mons like cloyster, sash mons, fast scarfers, klefki, aegislash again, arceus formes, dialga variants, skarmony, T-tar, lugia, even bronzong and strong priority can defeat mence or even DD rayquaza upon the switch. Mewtwo and Ghostceus also have a load of counters, and their shared weaknesses make things even easier to defeat. You can bluff choice and annihilate many of the previous when they come in with the other sets too.

Finally, though Terrakion does struggle against G-don, like a lot of the tier does anyway, I recommend using it late game anyway. Since almost three out of every five G-don run rocks, they usually are sent out and either weakened or defeated early-mid game. The rest tend to go out fairly early to switch into Xerneas or another thing it can take on or set up. Hence, practically all G-don are weak or defeated late-game, when I feel Terrakion shines and should come in to finish off the opposition. From here, since all variants should outspeed G-don, it often has the ability to finish it off (most notable on band or LO sets, but on scarf also) quickly with e-quake or CC depending on the set.

Finally, Terrakion is in no way inferior, imo, to other scarfers-I don't see Xerneas, Shaymin, most dittos or the like getting 'pivot moves' like U-turn and groudon can put an instant stop to Zekrom switching with Volt Switch, anway. Terrakion gets one strong and one accurate stab too (along with sufficient coverage which is both) so you can take your pick often and choose one fitting for the situation.
 

Fireburn

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Admittedly, a lot of good E-killers use Jolly, but there are only just over 35% on the set usage stats (but 50% unlisted sets too due to them having different evs or nature). 75% of them do run e-quake, but, if we said 60% of ceus' were jolly and 75% run e-quake, there still is, upon estimation, a good 20% or so band terrakion stops flat (just an educated guess based on usage and what I saw in testing).
Band Terrakion cannot be called an EKiller check if it is going to die 80% of the time it is matched up against one.

Scarf Terrakion usually needs CC, yes, and choiced CC is potentially risky, but 1) It is pretty obvious if your opponent will switch, usually and 2) If they DO keep switching on you and whatnot, you can run mons which stop them. Xerneas or Gengar trouble? Aegislash can stop them easily, alongside another dozen for each one. Ice shard mons like cloyster, sash mons, fast scarfers, klefki, aegislash again, arceus formes, dialga variants, skarmony, T-tar, lugia, even bronzong and strong priority can defeat mence or even DD rayquaza upon the switch. Mewtwo and Ghostceus also have a load of counters, and their shared weaknesses make things even easier to defeat. You can bluff choice and annihilate many of the previous when they come in with the other sets too.
Some inaccuracies here - Aegislash is not good against Gengar in this metagame (HexGar completely destroys it), Cloyster does not have the moveslot for Ice Shard, and bluffing Choice won't work when Terrakion has no viable sets other than Scarf (which isn't good either). Prediction goes both ways at well - they don't always have to switch if they know you can't afford to click Close Combat because doing so will get you swept by Salamence.

The problem with using CC is that Terrakion cannot OHKO EKiller or Darkrai without it, so if your opponent knows you can't use CC b/c they will sweep easily with Salamence once you lock into it, they can stay in and just eat the Stone Edge and kill Terrakion. You should not have to play this game with a Scarfer that is supposed to be good against this type of team.

Finally, though Terrakion does struggle against G-don, like a lot of the tier does anyway, I recommend using it late game anyway. Since almost three out of every five G-don run rocks, they usually are sent out and either weakened or defeated early-mid game. The rest tend to go out fairly early to switch into Xerneas or another thing it can take on or set up. Hence, practically all G-don are weak or defeated late-game, when I feel Terrakion shines and should come in to finish off the opposition. From here, since all variants should outspeed G-don, it often has the ability to finish it off (most notable on band or LO sets, but on scarf also) quickly with e-quake or CC depending on the set.
So Terrakion can outspeed and pick off a weakened Groudon. This proves nothing. Many things can pick off a weakened mon slower than they are. This isn't unique to Terrakion.

You won't always have the luxury of using Scarf Terrakion lategame given its job is supposed to be revenge killing stuff that will otherwise sweep you.

Finally, Terrakion is in no way inferior, imo, to other scarfers-I don't see Xerneas, Shaymin, most dittos or the like getting 'pivot moves' like U-turn and groudon can put an instant stop to Zekrom switching with Volt Switch, anway. Terrakion gets one strong and one accurate stab too (along with sufficient coverage which is both) so you can take your pick often and choose one fitting for the situation.
Scarf Zekrom is not relevant in ORAS.

Xerneas has an extremely spammable, powerful STAB with no immunities whose only switch-in on the typical HO team is Primal Groudon. Most other switch-ins to Moonblast can't threaten to sweep your team in one turn like they can with Terrakion.

Shaymin-S outspeeds all Salamence, can antilead Deoxys with Air Slash flinches and has Healing Wish. It has plenty of utility.

Ditto doesn't really give free setup since it can just come back in to revenge whatever just setup. It has an extremely good matchup against hyper offense but admittedly doesn't do much against bulkier teams (but Terrakion doesn't either.)

All three of these have more utility than Terrakion.

I think it should be clear by this point that Terrakion isn't going to be approved for an analysis lol.
 
just when i thought we had some peace around here...

yes thats fine but keep the time requirements in mind - i will be enforcing them for the purposes of having a clean forum!
 
Some new stuff coming in:

Chansey is approved for an analysis, and it was agreed that Arceus-Dark needs a Whirlpool set added. Experience of some sort will be needed here!
 
Can I PLEASE delete Kyogre's Scarf set? It's OO worthy.

The Fire Arceus analysis has a number of tidbits that concerned me, such as the following:

1. Pursuit Mega Metagross and Aerodactyl mentions
2. Only 56 Speed on a Pokemon that should be hitting as hard and as fast as possible; I'd never run anything less than max speed on an Arceus without Recover
3. Primal Groudon wasn't mentioned in teammates despite Fire Arceus mandating it to deal with Kyogre
4. Questionable set (Overheat SpA drops actually invite GeoXern in considering Fire Arceus will be quite damaged by the time it uses it, and Ice Beam seems more useful than Earth Power...Primal Groudon is the only target and beats fireceus 1-1 regardless)

It's not urgent, but I'd support a revamp.
 
alright im fine with both, that analysis was done somewhat early (by me!) and the set was probably approved just to get it out of the way
 

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