Metagame np: USUM DOU Stage 2 - Fat Bottomed Girls

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sam-testings

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im not agreeing to that. this is a non-argument.
when the opponent has that shit lax is very often useless. Speaking from my laddering experiences, I think it would have been easier to make reqs if i took the snorlax off of my team that was dedicated to supporting snorlax and replaced it with a random A-rank pokemon, because so many people had techs that shat all over it. (i lost to a guy with a life orb drain punch mimikyu once after setting up double lax. it was humiliating.) Snorlax is fair because bringing it to a game is a massive risk depending on what your opponent can bring, leading to a 5v6 or a clean sweep.

It's actually quite funny seeing you list all of the 'random' things you feel compelled to put on a team because of lax, because the list is so long. there are a ton of things that shit on this mon that can be used. in addition to the ones you listed, i can think of: (some of them depend on which snorlax set the opponent is bringing)
bug bite sciz
seed hoopa or any hoopa that can reliably shed its item
incinerate on an AV volc or some other mon
seeds steela or ferro
sub aegis
offensive pressure

you just can't get away with using a ton of passive mons like kyurem-b or tyranitar anymore unless they have a way to pivot or beat lax
This attitude of "nothing is broken, just prep harder" would maybe be ok in an ideal environment where you could prepare for every match and bring the perfect counter to their lax set. However, it is important to note that you usually cannot prep for ladder games and ladder does happen to fall under tiering policy jurisdiction. Also unless you are a prep god, not only do you have to predict that your opponent is bringing lax, you also have to predict the lax set. This is a lot of stuff to predict and if you predict wrong it usually makes your team weaker against non lax teams. Additionally, most of the things that you list or that anyone has been listing as ways to beat lax are pretty inconsistent, shaky at best. In your list alone here, bug bite sciz, hoopa, and incinerate all require snorlax to still have its item assuming that it hasn't consumed it yet, and steela/ferro/aegis/sciz all are weak to fire punch which is a common enough move that is run on lax. Offensive pressure is a decent answer if Snorlax wasn't bulky as hell and requires 3-4 strong hits to take it down. Snorlax is almost impossible to 2hko with any move due to its ability to heal up with pinch berries and its enourmous bulk. Offensive pressure alone is not enough of an answer to Snorlax. And finally, your closing statement is so contradictory is almost hurts. First off, kyube and ttar are not passive mons, and I have no idea where you are coming from saying this. AV Kyube maybe, but even then it still has dtail. Second off, the fact that you can say that sentence shows that lax has changed the meta so much that you cannot run any passive mons unless they beat can pivot or beat lax. This sentence alone shows how dumb preparing for lax can be.

Overall, most of your points boil down to your attitude of "nothing is broken, just prep harder" that I touched on a bit in the beggining of my post. As I stated, you have to not only predict the lax, but also predict the set if you want to properly prepare against it. But, you completely disregard the fact that prepping for lax usually will leave your team weaker against other, non lax archetypes. You even stated it yourself, you can't use any passive mons that dont pivot or beat lax and this can certainly restricts teambuilding by quite a bit. If anything, your post convinced me that lax deserves to be banned more.
 

Amaranth

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something else that i feel is worth mentioning: lax existing causes a whole bunch of counterplay to setuppers in general show up, which means all of the other setuppers, on top of being generally outclassed by snorlax, are also even weaker because everyone overpreps for them. not that this is necessarily a bad thing - mons and playstyles and sets pop in and out of viability all the time based on the environment - but i think it is significant to bring up when talking about how much snorlax warps the metagame
 
This attitude of "nothing is broken, just prep harder" would maybe be ok in an ideal environment where you could prepare for every match and bring the perfect counter to their lax set. However, it is important to note that you usually cannot prep for ladder games and ladder does happen to fall under tiering policy jurisdiction. Also unless you are a prep god, not only do you have to predict that your opponent is bringing lax, you also have to predict the lax set. This is a lot of stuff to predict and if you predict wrong it usually makes your team weaker against non lax teams. Additionally, most of the things that you list or that anyone has been listing as ways to beat lax are pretty inconsistent, shaky at best. In your list alone here, bug bite sciz, hoopa, and incinerate all require snorlax to still have its item assuming that it hasn't consumed it yet, and steela/ferro/aegis/sciz all are weak to fire punch which is a common enough move that is run on lax. Offensive pressure is a decent answer if Snorlax wasn't bulky as hell and requires 3-4 strong hits to take it down. Snorlax is almost impossible to 2hko with any move due to its ability to heal up with pinch berries and its enourmous bulk. Offensive pressure alone is not enough of an answer to Snorlax. And finally, your closing statement is so contradictory is almost hurts. First off, kyube and ttar are not passive mons, and I have no idea where you are coming from saying this. AV Kyube maybe, but even then it still has dtail. Second off, the fact that you can say that sentence shows that lax has changed the meta so much that you cannot run any passive mons unless they beat can pivot or beat lax. This sentence alone shows how dumb preparing for lax can be.

Overall, most of your points boil down to your attitude of "nothing is broken, just prep harder" that I touched on a bit in the beggining of my post. As I stated, you have to not only predict the lax, but also predict the set if you want to properly prepare against it. But, you completely disregard the fact that prepping for lax usually will leave your team weaker against other, non lax archetypes. You even stated it yourself, you can't use any passive mons that dont pivot or beat lax and this can certainly restricts teambuilding by quite a bit. If anything, your post convinced me that lax deserves to be banned more.
just gonna respond to some random points in your post without formatting correctly because internet is out and im on my phone.
it seems you think you should be able to win every single game. this is ridiculous. im fully aware that you are going to lose to lax sometimes no matter what you do. and im ok with this. youre also going to lose to kingdra or camerupt or some other shit sometimes no matter what you do. yes lax checks depend on the set your opponent is running. im pretty sure i said that in my post.
how is my last statement contradictory? im defining passive mons as: mons that are setup fodder for lax. in a different circumastance something else would b considered a passive mon. there SHOULD be a way in the metagame to punish passive strategies. and it does but youre trying to kill it. i bet you can't wait to go back to fini zap durdle squads. no?

uhh what else
>prepping for lax leaves your team weaker to something else
ok how about..
"prepping for trick room leaves you weak to something else"
"prepping for charizard leaves you weak to something else"
"prepping for tapu lele leaves you weak to something else"
there is no perfect team in the metagame that gives you good matchups all around. if there was, then there would be a problem.

>overall, most of ur points boil down to nothing is broken, prep harder

you forgot git gud.
 
I feel like there is ALOT of counter play to Snorlax. Snorlax tends to be on Trick Room teams, which aren’t too hard to stop since most TR setters are Psychic, and Psychic types generally don’t like Aegislash or Tyranitar, both of which are pretty strong and somewhat common in the meta. Outside of Trick Room, he’s eating a lot of damage and attacking last, not giving him much time to set up Curse without having to heal up (assuming the Snorlax has Recycle). Although Fighting types are a little scarce thanks to Fairy types, Snorlax is strongest in TR, without it, his Defensive stats don’t make up for it perfectly. I don’t want to see the Big Belly Gansta gone since there is counter play against him and the counters do fit on a myriad of playstyles and he’s really fun for me to fight against as well as use.
 

GenOne

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I'll try to git gud and stop using durdle squads, but I have a feeling that won't solve all my problems. High-level play (especially SPL) has already demonstrated a significant shift away from passive Fini/Zap/AV squads over the past few months to more aggressive builds with Koko/Metagross cores, fullroom offense, etc. and yet we're still noticing a significant gravitational pull from Snorlax.

Sassy opening paragraph aside - if some people don't think Snorlax lacks counterplay options, that's a completely respectable stance and I can see things both ways, especially when you look at Snorlax's usage rates and win rates. Stats aren't always everything, despite being an essential piece to informed decision making, so let's flesh out the counterplay options on a bit of a deeper level.

Specifically, I'm going to talk about the Belly Drum set since (imo) that's the problematic one:
  1. Belly Drum Snorlax's strategy is to max out its attack using Belly Drum, then proceed to OHKO a target every turn through a combination of Frustration/Return and either High Horsepower or Fire Punch - either of which give Snorlax nearly "perfect" coverage
    • Normal-type attacks hit all but three types (Rock, Steel, and Ghost) for neutral damage. Ground-type coverage is able to hit all three of these types for neutral or super-effective damage, while Fire-type coverage beats would-be switchins like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. This perfect coverage, in tandem with +6 attack, solos most of the metagame and is a big driver to why DrumLax is broken.

    • There may be other offensive breakers / wincons out there that can be equally devastating in some matchups, but none of the other current ones have perfect coverage that allows them to plow through an opponent's team without regards for the type chart. STAB attacks from the likes of Stakataka and Camerupt (as two examples of other TR sweepers) can be switched into with little consequence with a good prediction and some common sense. Ferrothorn still gets 2HKO'd by a resisted attack from DrumLax.

    • Because Snorlax's advantage comes from a stat boost, you can invalidate its win condition by hazing it with Clear Smog or Haze, or by forcing it to switch out through techs like Dragon Tail, Roar, or even Toxic. Burning it with Will-o-Wisp will also make its attacks manageable. However, Snorlax has enough bulk to set itself up more than once in a game (more on that below), and assuming Trick Room has been set, your only real chance to execute any of these techs is on the turn Snorlax tries to set its Belly Drum - after that, it can simply OHKO your hazer, phaser or statuser before it has a chance to move. This brings me to discussion point #2:
  2. Snorlax usually relies on a Trick Room setter to give it the speed advantage, although in some mid- to late-game scenarios, it can still apply enough pressure outside of Trick Room as well.
    • Snorlax almost always moves first under Trick Room, which means it can either take out a target before the opponent gets a chance to move, or it can recover 50% of its HP using Recycle before it has to absorb a hit

    • This would suggest that one viable counterplay strategy would be to KO or pressure the Trick Room setter(s) first, that way Snorlax never gets the speed advantage

    • Preventing TR from being set is easier said than done - people wouldn't use it in this meta if the success rate of a Trick Room set wasn't high. If your plan for beating Snorlax is to beat Trick Room, you might want to analyze the success rate of a Trick Room setter setting it during a match.
      • For a semiroom team, you generally don't bring in the TR setter or attempt to set TR until you have a favourable position to do so, and finding this position isn't hard to do when half of your team is perfectly capable of fighting outside of Trick Room. The fail rate for a TR setter is a bit higher than on fullroom teams, but a semiroom team doesn't really care if TR never goes up.
      • For a full-room team, you're kidding yourself if you think Trick Room isn't going up at least once during the game, unless you brought really hardcore checks to Trick Room. High-level players that frequently use fullroom are hyper aware of the techs that can stop a TR set, and they'll build and play around them more often than not (the average balance-oriented team is usually better off just making sure their team doesn't completely crumble under TR).
    • Even if you do manage to prevent Trick Room from being set, that doesn't stop Snorlax from setting up Belly Drum and attacking you. It does, however, give you a window of opportunity to double target it and take it down, or at least damage it faster than it can recover HP with its pinch berry. This brings me to point #3:
  3. Outside of Trick Room, Snorlax leverages its very high bulk to weather through a storm of attacks each turn and will Recycle its berry if firing off a +6 attack will leave it susceptable to a KO on the following turn. (Sometimes Lax runs Protect instead, bluffing Recycle).
    • Snorlax naturally avoids a 2HKO from most special attackers, thanks to a base 160 HP stat and base 110 SpD stat. A base 65 stat makes Snorlax's physical bulk a little bit more penetrable, but most teams will mitigate this through the use of one or more Intimidate users like Mega Manectric and Landorus-T. Snarl is also sometimes used (usually by Mega Manectric) to further weaken opposing special attacks.

    • Snorlax EV spreads can vary, but they are generally built to withstand OHKOs from would-be breakers like Landorus-T Tectonic Rage and Deoxys-A Psycho Boost / Superpower

    • Mono Normal-typing leaves Snorlax with only one weakness (to Fighting-type attacks) which is hardly exploitable due to the influx of top-tier Fairies in this metagame

    • Other comparable Trick Room breakers like Mega Camerupt, Stakataka, Abomasnow and (maybe) Mawile lack the sheer bulk, recovery option, and lack of exploitable defensive typing that Snorlax has access to. Fast breakers like Kingdra and Deoxys-A definitely lack all of the above.

    • If you don't run "fini zap durdle squads" chances are you'll have at least one strong breaker on your team that can push Snorlax past its limit for an eventual double-targeting KO. This depends a lot on positioning, but it is doable. That said, Snorlax's partner also essentially gets a free turn for as long as Snorlax pressures you into double-targeting it.

    • Because Snorlax relies on its pinch berry for Recovery, you might have a shot at destroying its berry via Knock Off or Magician before it has a chance to consume it. However, this logic really translates better to dealing with CurseLax sets; DrumLax's berry is consumed by default once Belly Drum sets up, and in most cases if it feels the need to click Recycle, it will already be below 50% HP by the time Recycle is executed
  4. Because of Snorlax's intrinsic bulk and recovery, there is generally an ample window of opportunity for its partners to get away with additional support techniques that, while not necessary to Snorlax achieving its win condition, definitely can go a long way in assisting:
    • Trapping and taming: A popular support strategy with DrumLax is to utilize a Shadow Tag user (usually Gothetelle) to trap the opponent while Intimidate and Snarl supporters like Mega Manectric and Landorus-T are brought in to reduce the opponent's damage output. With the right plays and positioning, you're able to weaken the targets to a point where double-targeting isn't likely to do more than 50% damage to Snorlax, and you just keep the weakest target trapped while Snorlax solos the stronger one each turn.

    • Heal Pulse: Instead of wasting a turn clicking Recycle, Snorlax can outsource its 50% recovery to either Gothitelle and Tapu Fini while Snorlax proceeds to OHKO a target each turn. The Heal Pulse users in themselves are hard to take down, even through double-targeting, unless you can score a super-effective hit.

    • Fake Out: Outside of Trick Room, you can still cancel out a 1-vs-2 scenario for a turn by buying a turn with Fake Out users like Mew or Scrafty. It really only takes one turn for Snorlax to gain back any momentum it lost, either by Recycling or by KO'ing a troublesome attacker.

    • [insert other stuff here]: This isn't an all-inclusive list. I'm just making a point. There are a lot of support techniques that definitely help Snorlax achieve its wincon, but that aren't nessesary for achieving it.
Conclusion:

So in conclusion, there are a number of factors at play that, when factored in as pieces of a bigger picture, lead myself (and most likely other players) to believe that Snorlax is overpowered in this metagame and lacks counterplay.

Snorlax has nearly unresisted offensive coverage, can set up its win condition in a single turn, and has enough bulk to push past unfavourable positioning. Trick Room is needed to unlock its full potential, but it still puts in work if Trick Room is thwarted, and Trick Room is pretty darn difficult to thwart in high level play. Additional support options like Shadow Tag and Shadow Pulse are exceptionally good techs for supporting Snorlax, but they aren't intrinsic to the success of Snorlax in a game.

If you've read / understood the points I made above and still believe Snorlax is healthy for the metagame, I fully respect that. Despite everything Snorlax has going for itself, its not like its winning a disproportionate amount of high-level games, and that's probably the strongest arguement I've seen for why Snorlax should stay.

However, tournament usage/success is dependent on a number of un-quantifiable factors as well (e.g. maybe SPL players just didn't feel like building around Snorlax every week and playing Snorlax mirrors) so it shouldn't be used as the sole metric for whether or not Snorlax is a good presence in our metagame.
 
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I'll try to git gud and stop using durdle squads, but I have a feeling that won't solve all my problems. High-level play (especially SPL) has already demonstrated a significant shift away from passive Fini/Zap/AV squads over the past few months to more aggressive builds with Koko/Metagross cores, fullroom offense, etc. and yet we're still noticing a significant gravitational pull from Snorlax.

Sassy opening paragraph aside - if some people don't think Snorlax lacks counterplay options, that's a completely respectable stance and I can see things both ways, especially when you look at Snorlax's usage rates and win rates. Stats aren't always everything, despite being an essential piece to informed decision making, so let's flesh out the counterplay options on a bit of a deeper level.

Specifically, I'm going to talk about the Belly Drum set since (imo) that's the problematic one:
  1. Belly Drum Snorlax's strategy is to max out its attack using Belly Drum, then proceed to OHKO a target every turn through a combination of Frustration/Return and either High Horsepower or Fire Punch - either of which give Snorlax nearly "perfect" coverage
    • Normal-type attacks hit all but three types (Rock, Steel, and Ghost) for neutral damage. Ground-type coverage is able to hit all three of these types for neutral or super-effective damage, while Fire-type coverage beats would-be switchins like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. This perfect coverage, in tandem with +6 attack, solos most of the metagame and is a big driver to why DrumLax is broken.

    • There may be other offensive breakers / wincons out there that can be equally devastating in some matchups, but none of the other current ones have perfect coverage that allows them to plow through an opponent's team without regards for the type chart. STAB attacks from the likes of Stakataka and Camerupt (as two examples of other TR sweepers) can be switched into with little consequence with a good prediction and some common sense. Ferrothorn still gets 2HKO'd by a resisted attack from DrumLax.

    • Because Snorlax's advantage comes from a stat boost, you can invalidate its win condition by hazing it with Clear Smog or Haze, or by forcing it to switch out through techs like Dragon Tail, Roar, or even Toxic. Burning it with Will-o-Wisp will also make its attacks manageable. However, Snorlax has enough bulk to set itself up more than once in a game (more on that below), and assuming Trick Room has been set, your only real chance to execute any of these techs is on the turn Snorlax tries to set its Belly Drum - after that, it can simply OHKO your hazer, phaser or statuser before it has a chance to move. This brings me to discussion point #2:
  2. Snorlax usually relies on a Trick Room setter to give it the speed advantage, although in some mid- to late-game scenarios, it can still apply enough pressure outside of Trick Room as well.
    • Snorlax almost always moves first under Trick Room, which means it can either take out a target before the opponent gets a chance to move, or it can recover 50% of its HP using Recycle before it has to absorb a hit

    • This would suggest that one viable counterplay strategy would be to KO or pressure the Trick Room setter(s) first, that way Snorlax never gets the speed advantage

    • Preventing TR from being set is easier said than done - people wouldn't use it in this meta if the success rate of a Trick Room set wasn't high. If your plan for beating Snorlax is to beat Trick Room, you might want to analyze the success rate of a Trick Room setter setting it during a match.
      • For a semiroom team, you generally don't bring in the TR setter or attempt to set TR until you have a favourable position to do so, and finding this position isn't hard to do when half of your team is perfectly capable of fighting outside of Trick Room. The fail rate for a TR setter is a bit higher than on fullroom teams, but a semiroom team doesn't really care if TR never goes up.
      • For a full-room team, you're kidding yourself if you think Trick Room isn't going up at least once during the game, unless you brought really hardcore checks to Trick Room. High-level players that frequently use fullroom are hyper aware of the techs that can stop a TR set, and they'll build and play around them more often than not (the average balance-oriented team is usually better off just making sure their team doesn't completely crumble under TR).
    • Even if you do manage to prevent Trick Room from being set, that doesn't stop Snorlax from setting up Belly Drum and attacking you. It does, however, give you a window of opportunity to double target it and take it down, or at least damage it faster than it can recover HP with its pinch berry. This brings me to point #3:
  3. Outside of Trick Room, Snorlax leverages its very high bulk to weather through a storm of attacks each turn and will Recycle its berry if firing off a +6 attack will leave it susceptable to a KO on the following turn. (Sometimes Lax runs Protect instead, bluffing Recycle).
    • Snorlax naturally avoids a 2HKO from most special attackers, thanks to a base 160 HP stat and base 110 SpD stat. A base 65 stat makes Snorlax's physical bulk a little bit more penetrable, but most teams will mitigate this through the use of one or more Intimidate users like Mega Manectric and Landorus-T. Snarl is also sometimes used (usually by Mega Manectric) to further weaken opposing special attacks.

    • Snorlax EV spreads can vary, but they are generally built to withstand OHKOs from would-be breakers like Landorus-T Tectonic Rage and Deoxys-A Psycho Boost / Superpower

    • Mono Normal-typing leaves Snorlax with only one weakness (to Fighting-type attacks) which is hardly exploitable due to the influx of top-tier Fairies in this metagame

    • Other comparable Trick Room breakers like Mega Camerupt, Stakataka, Abomasnow and (maybe) Mawile lack the sheer bulk, recovery option, and lack of exploitable defensive typing that Snorlax has access to. Fast breakers like Kingdra and Deoxys-A definitely lack all of the above.

    • If you don't run "fini zap durdle squads" chances are you'll have at least one strong breaker on your team that can push Snorlax past its limit for an eventual double-targeting KO. This depends a lot on positioning, but it is doable. That said, Snorlax's partner also essentially gets a free turn for as long as Snorlax pressures you into double-targeting it.

    • Because Snorlax relies on its pinch berry for Recovery, you might have a shot at destroying its berry via Knock Off or Magician before it has a chance to consume it. However, this logic really translates better to dealing with CurseLax sets; DrumLax's berry is consumed by default once Belly Drum sets up, and in most cases if it feels the need to click Recycle, it will already be below 50% HP by the time Recycle is executed
  4. Because of Snorlax's intrinsic bulk and recovery, there is generally an ample window of opportunity for its partners to get away with additional support techniques that, while not necessary to Snorlax achieving its win condition, definitely can go a long way in assisting:
    • Trapping and taming: A popular support strategy with DrumLax is to utilize a Shadow Tag user (usually Gothetelle) to trap the opponent while Intimidate and Snarl supporters like Mega Manectric and Landorus-T are brought in to reduce the opponent's damage output. With the right plays and positioning, you're able to weaken the targets to a point where double-targeting isn't likely to do more than 50% damage to Snorlax, and you just keep the weakest target trapped while Snorlax solos the stronger one each turn.

    • Heal Pulse: Instead of wasting a turn clicking Recycle, Snorlax can outsource its 50% recovery to either Gothitelle and Tapu Fini while Snorlax proceeds to OHKO a target each turn. The Heal Pulse users in themselves are hard to take down, even through double-targeting, unless you can score a super-effective hit.

    • Fake Out: Outside of Trick Room, you can still cancel out a 1-vs-2 scenario for a turn by buying a turn with Fake Out users like Mew or Scrafty. It really only takes one turn for Snorlax to gain back any momentum it lost, either by Recycling or by KO'ing a troublesome attacker.

    • [insert other stuff here]: This isn't an all-inclusive list. I'm just making a point. There are a lot of support techniques that definitely help Snorlax achieve its wincon, but that aren't nessesary for achieving it.
Conclusion:

So in conclusion, there are a number of factors at play that, when factored in as pieces of a bigger picture, lead myself (and most likely other players) to believe that Snorlax is overpowered in this metagame and lacks counterplay.

Snorlax has nearly unresisted offensive coverage, can set up its win condition in a single turn, and has enough bulk to push past unfavourable positioning. Trick Room is needed to unlock its full potential, but it still puts in work if Trick Room is thwarted, and Trick Room is pretty darn difficult to thwart in high level play. Additional support options like Shadow Tag and Shadow Pulse are exceptionally good techs for supporting Snorlax, but they aren't intrinsic to the success of Snorlax in a game.

If you've read / understood the points I made above and still believe Snorlax is healthy for the metagame, I fully respect that. Despite everything Snorlax has going for itself, its not like its winning a disproportionate amount of high-level games, and that's probably the strongest arguement I've seen for why Snorlax should stay.

However, tournament usage/success is dependent on a number of un-quantifiable factors as well (e.g. maybe SPL players just didn't feel like building around Snorlax every week and playing Snorlax mirrors) so it shouldn't be used as the sole metric for whether or not Snorlax is a good presence in our metagame.
I’ll go through every point you mentioned here:

1. From the looks of it, it feels like you really hate Belly Drum in general but Taunt and a more common move, Knock Off, does hurt him a lot since he won’t have access to heal and and if you use Knock Off, It’ll hurt Snorlax (Assuming Snorlax goes after the Knock Off user). And let’s not forget that Intimidate is very strong in the meta and with Landorus T popping up a lot, you can eventually weaken him and trust me, BD snorlax won’t go for a second Belly Drum since it will leave him open unless he recycled AND had over 50% health beforehand.

2. I did mention this this in my post beforehand but without Trick Room, he will have to eat whatever is thrown at him. And Snorlax does somewhat fear Tapu Lele outside of TR since Tapu Lele can run Focus Blast (Generally for Steel types) and put a HUGE dent in him. And TR setters generally have one weakness, Dark and Ghost types since the strongest TR setters like Cresselia will eat up a ton of damage and if Aegislash were there:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Cresselia: 492-582 (110.8 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A Cresselia genneraly wouldn’t run protect so a unconventional mean such as Ally Swap or Switching out would be necessary to avoid it. And TR users that aren’t immune to Fake Out can be picked off pretty easily since the TR user will be targeted after the Fake Out and the turn after.

3. Knock Off ensures that Snorlax can’t use Recycle to get the Berry back. Also, without boosts, he’s just a tank that really isn’t too threatening. You throw a move that does some damage to Snorlax and Snorlax will throw a move that honestly doesn’t mean much. Therefore, take away his boosts or Use Knock Off + Intimidate to neuter his damage output and Snorlax will be scared to use BD since he’ll just be killing himself.

4. Yeah,dealing with Snorlax’s support does depend on what you have entirely since he has a ton of viable options for support but since you can preview what Pokémon your opponent is bringing, you’ll have a general idea of what the support Pokémon is gonna do and you can use that info to switch out mons in time so that you have an advantageous position.

My Conclusion
Snorlax was monster that was born when Marshadow was banned to the shadow realm but simple answers are still there. As Hashtag said, you can’t win against every team. No team has a 100% win rate and people have to understand that. There are answers to him and if you don’t want to get whopped by Snorlax, prepare for him, but you will still have a weakness to another play style Look at Landorus T. You see him a lot and people tend to expect him and generally have some answer to him. I generally use rain teams and I have a pretty good win rate (51 W and 36 L) but when I see Zapdos, it honestly makes me want to scream to the top of my lungs. It’s nice to win but you can win em all but you can catch em all
 

Darkmalice

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I’ll go through every point you mentioned here:
I haven't played DOU for a few months, and don't have an opinion on whether Lax is broken or not, but there are some things that alarm in your post, coming from someone who has used Lax before in DOU and in VGC.

1. From the looks of it, it feels like you really hate Belly Drum in general but Taunt and a more common move, Knock Off, does hurt him a lot since he won’t have access to heal and and if you use Knock Off, It’ll hurt Snorlax (Assuming Snorlax goes after the Knock Off user). And let’s not forget that Intimidate is very strong in the meta and with Landorus T popping up a lot, you can eventually weaken him and trust me, BD snorlax won’t go for a second Belly Drum since it will leave him open unless he recycled AND had over 50% health beforehand.

3. Knock Off ensures that Snorlax can’t use Recycle to get the Berry back. Also, without boosts, he’s just a tank that really isn’t too threatening. You throw a move that does some damage to Snorlax and Snorlax will throw a move that honestly doesn’t mean much. Therefore, take away his boosts or Use Knock Off + Intimidate to neuter his damage output and Snorlax will be scared to use BD since he’ll just be killing himself.
Good Snorlax users use Belly Drum before it gets hit by Knock Off i.e. after its used its Berry. This is easy to do if TR is up. If it's going to be targeted before it can Belly Drum, expect a switch out and to see it come back in play when it doesn't get hit by Knock Off. It puts pressure on Lax, but it can work around it. Taunt is in a similar boat. It still stops Lax from using Recycle even if it hits Lax after the Drum, though with the opportunity cost of not using a damaging move on the same turn as Taunt, Lax will likely have enough durability to last until Taunt expires especially considering that it will be OHKOing things in the meanwhile.

Intimidate is a terrible answer to BellyLax. A +5 Snorlax will still OHKO Landorus, every other Intimidate user, and most of the metagame. You'll need a ton of Intimidates to actually make a noticeable difference, but with all the free switches you'll be doing, Snorlax will have taken down a couple of Pokemon, Recycled back its berry, and even reset Belly Drum to render those Intimidates useless. Oh, and Intimidate doesn't even work if you switch it in the turn Lax sets up Belly Drum.

2. I did mention this this in my post beforehand but without Trick Room, he will have to eat whatever is thrown at him. And Snorlax does somewhat fear Tapu Lele outside of TR since Tapu Lele can run Focus Blast (Generally for Steel types) and put a HUGE dent in him. And TR setters generally have one weakness, Dark and Ghost types since the strongest TR setters like Cresselia will eat up a ton of damage and if Aegislash were there:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Cresselia: 492-582 (110.8 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A Cresselia genneraly wouldn’t run protect so a unconventional mean such as Ally Swap or Switching out would be necessary to avoid it. And TR users that aren’t immune to Fake Out can be picked off pretty easily since the TR user will be targeted after the Fake Out and the turn after.
This has been discussed before in the thread. TR will usually be set in the hands of experienced players despite all the available checks to it. You also need to be prepared for dealing with Lax in TR. I also smiled are your example in combination with the next sentence: Cress could Ally Switch to Lax to avoid the Never-Ending Nightmare.

You're right; Lele can majorly dent Lax even without Focus Blast (Psychic does close enough damage to Focus Blast, and Shatter Psyche even more). Lax is generally not going to set up on a Lele without scouting for its set beforehand or with some support like Rage Powder.

4. Yeah,dealing with Snorlax’s support does depend on what you have entirely since he has a ton of viable options for support but since you can preview what Pokémon your opponent is bringing, you’ll have a general idea of what the support Pokémon is gonna do and you can use that info to switch out mons in time so that you have an advantageous position.
This is a two-way argument. You can preview the support Pokemon, but the Lax user can also preview the threats to Lax and their support and act accordingly.
 

kamikaze

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Ok, so I'm just going to lay out most of the reasons people think Lax should stay in this meta, and explain why they don't make sense. I haven't played DOU for that long, but even I can see that this thing needs to go.

Mega Lopunny is a common enough mon and a good enough counter to Snorlax that it's held in check: First of all, if TR is up and Snorlax has gotten a Belly Drum off (which it usually can do if Mega Lopunny isn't switched in already) Lopunny is too frail to do anything to it. Second, it's not common at all, not in a meta where all four Tapus are viable and pretty common.

Just ban Goth/ban Snorlax and TR on the same team: Read MajorBowman's post in this thread about laddering with Gothless BD Lax. With the right support (I haven't tried Gothless Lax, but I assume something like Tapu Fini would work well) Snorlax is broken. I for one would rather see Snorlax banned then the myriad of support pokemon it can use, most all of whom are not at all broken.

(List of various random things that counter Lax): This is the definition of overcentralizing. Sure, you can run Drain Punch Mimikyu to counter it, but when the hell is that useful outside of countering Lax? The fact that people run things like that because they expect to see Lax that much is very concerning.

Most TR setters get whacked by Aegi/T-Tar: Ehh...

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Gothitelle: 218-258 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Gothitelle: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Gothitelle is very bulky, especially the Goth sets that exist to stay alive and support Snorlax. Sure, those both hurt a lot, but remember that Gothitelle can restore some health with its berry, has Recycle, and neither of those pokes are getting more than one turn on the field if Lax is set up, which it can do in one turn. Also, neither Aegislash and Tyranitar are very common in this meta, Aegislash because of Lando-T being as good as it always is, and T-Tar because fairies are everywhere, so this is just the "use uncommon techs to counter one mon" argument, which I think kills metagame diversity and teambuilding.

Run Knock Off or other ways to get rid of Snorlax's berry: Snorlax is still PHAT without that berry, it's gonna take a lot to get rid of it. Also, the most common Gothitelle set on Gothlax teams runs Heal Pulse for that reason, so that Snorlax can stay up. Even without the berry, it's gonna take out 2 or 3 pokes at least before it goes down, which is easily enough to turn the tide of a match.

You can preview your opponent's team to see what they're bringing and prep for it: Unless you don't have anything that can counter it. I get that not all matches are winnable, but people are losing because they don't run some random shit to beat Lax waaaay too often.

Free Marshadow: Yeah, no. There's a reason we banned that mon. Keeping some broken mons around because without them others would be broken is like what the US did during the Cold War when they supported brutal dictatorships because the alternative was communism in those countries.

There's also one thing that I don't think was mentioned enough in the thread so far, and pretty much invalidates most of the anti-ban arguments. Shadow Tag. Lax would be busted without it, and it's not that great of an ability on its own, but with it the player running Gothlax can decide exactly when they want to send in Gothitelle, trapping whatever's on the field. Lopunny can answer Snorlax, and Darks/Ghosts can shut down Gothitelle, but not if they can't switch in. Beyond that, the strategy with Gothlax is to kill the more offensive mon with Snorlax each turn, keeping in the more passive one that can't do as much damage to it, and keeping its health up by doing so.

In conclusion, the current state of the meta is one where any effective counters to Snorlax are either incredibly niche or unable to be used effectively. The amount of things that people have suggested as "counters" to Snorlax that are completely unviable outside of countering Lax just proves how overcentralizing it is. For the sake of a diverse–hell, even playable–meta, this thing has to go.
 
Ok, so I'm just going to lay out most of the reasons people think Lax should stay in this meta, and explain why they don't make sense. I haven't played DOU for that long, but even I can see that this thing needs to go.

Mega Lopunny is a common enough mon and a good enough counter to Snorlax that it's held in check: First of all, if TR is up and Snorlax has gotten a Belly Drum off (which it usually can do if Mega Lopunny isn't switched in already) Lopunny is too frail to do anything to it. Second, it's not common at all, not in a meta where all four Tapus are viable and pretty common.

Just ban Goth/ban Snorlax and TR on the same team: Read MajorBowman's post in this thread about laddering with Gothless BD Lax. With the right support (I haven't tried Gothless Lax, but I assume something like Tapu Fini would work well) Snorlax is broken. I for one would rather see Snorlax banned then the myriad of support pokemon it can use, most all of whom are not at all broken.

(List of various random things that counter Lax): This is the definition of overcentralizing. Sure, you can run Drain Punch Mimikyu to counter it, but when the hell is that useful outside of countering Lax? The fact that people run things like that because they expect to see Lax that much is very concerning.

Most TR setters get whacked by Aegi/T-Tar: Ehh...

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Gothitelle: 218-258 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Gothitelle: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Gothitelle is very bulky, especially the Goth sets that exist to stay alive and support Snorlax. Sure, those both hurt a lot, but remember that Gothitelle can restore some health with its berry, has Recycle, and neither of those pokes are getting more than one turn on the field if Lax is set up, which it can do in one turn. Also, neither Aegislash and Tyranitar are very common in this meta, Aegislash because of Lando-T being as good as it always is, and T-Tar because fairies are everywhere, so this is just the "use uncommon techs to counter one mon" argument, which I think kills metagame diversity and teambuilding.

Run Knock Off or other ways to get rid of Snorlax's berry: Snorlax is still PHAT without that berry, it's gonna take a lot to get rid of it. Also, the most common Gothitelle set on Gothlax teams runs Heal Pulse for that reason, so that Snorlax can stay up. Even without the berry, it's gonna take out 2 or 3 pokes at least before it goes down, which is easily enough to turn the tide of a match.

You can preview your opponent's team to see what they're bringing and prep for it: Unless you don't have anything that can counter it. I get that not all matches are winnable, but people are losing because they don't run some random shit to beat Lax waaaay too often.

Free Marshadow: Yeah, no. There's a reason we banned that mon. Keeping some broken mons around because without them others would be broken is like what the US did during the Cold War when they supported brutal dictatorships because the alternative was communism in those countries.

There's also one thing that I don't think was mentioned enough in the thread so far, and pretty much invalidates most of the anti-ban arguments. Shadow Tag. Lax would be busted without it, and it's not that great of an ability on its own, but with it the player running Gothlax can decide exactly when they want to send in Gothitelle, trapping whatever's on the field. Lopunny can answer Snorlax, and Darks/Ghosts can shut down Gothitelle, but not if they can't switch in. Beyond that, the strategy with Gothlax is to kill the more offensive mon with Snorlax each turn, keeping in the more passive one that can't do as much damage to it, and keeping its health up by doing so.

In conclusion, the current state of the meta is one where any effective counters to Snorlax are either incredibly niche or unable to be used effectively. The amount of things that people have suggested as "counters" to Snorlax that are completely unviable outside of countering Lax just proves how overcentralizing it is. For the sake of a diverse–hell, even playable–meta, this thing has to go.
Wow. You have incredibly strong points that I can’t even think of a counter argument at this point. Well, although it is for the better, I will miss the the Big Belly Gangsta or big nibba as some people call him He was fun at least for me to fight and even use for a little while. At least VGC18 will still let us use him.
 
I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about the current tiering system and the future state of DOU. I know it's a lot easier to ban things than unban them, and thinking back about the Marsh suspect brought a concerning thought process I feel is better shared than ignored.

Many people including council members voted ban on Marshadow because they simply didn't prefer the meta. They admitted Marshadow wasn't broken, just centralizing. I was totally fine with this reasoning until I saw how unstable the meta became after losing Marsh. Snorlax became a broken threat because we banned something that wasn't broken. We don't know what the meta will look like with Lax gone, but if another threat takes its place as an unstoppable force, is it more reasonable to suspect that Pokemon or to suspect Marsh again and re-stabilize the meta?
 
I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about the current tiering system and the future state of DOU. I know it's a lot easier to ban things than unban them, and thinking back about the Marsh suspect brought a concerning thought process I feel is better shared than ignored.

Many people including council members voted ban on Marshadow because they simply didn't prefer the meta. They admitted Marshadow wasn't broken, just centralizing. I was totally fine with this reasoning until I saw how unstable the meta became after losing Marsh. Snorlax became a broken threat because we banned something that wasn't broken. We don't know what the meta will look like with Lax gone, but if another threat takes its place as an unstoppable force, is it more reasonable to suspect that Pokemon or to suspect Marsh again and re-stabilize the meta?
That’s actually a really good point. Marshadow still feared Fairy types so he wasn’t too hard to check. And Aegislash put him in his place as well. I would like them to consider un-bans to restabilize the meta they made. Let’s face it, we made lax a monster cause we didn’t want Marshadow in DOU. I know they did some suspect tests to bring back some banned mons in gen 6.
Maybe they both can come back someday...
 

GenOne

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I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about the current tiering system and the future state of DOU. I know it's a lot easier to ban things than unban them, and thinking back about the Marsh suspect brought a concerning thought process I feel is better shared than ignored.

Many people including council members voted ban on Marshadow because they simply didn't prefer the meta. They admitted Marshadow wasn't broken, just centralizing. I was totally fine with this reasoning until I saw how unstable the meta became after losing Marsh. Snorlax became a broken threat because we banned something that wasn't broken. We don't know what the meta will look like with Lax gone, but if another threat takes its place as an unstoppable force, is it more reasonable to suspect that Pokemon or to suspect Marsh again and re-stabilize the meta?
I think the tiering system itself is fine (not perfect, but fine). However, the one thing I will say is that Gen 7 in general feels like it has been a moving target since the beginning.

By that I mainly mean that we didn't have all of the Megas available at the beginning - they came in waves of about 2-3 in each increment. We had already suspected a number of Pokemon before we had all the megas, and I'd argue that some of the later Mega releases (Camerupt and Manectric for example) ended up enabling archetypes that weren't as viable previously.

Then you add Marshadow into the mix, and that complicates things further. Marshadow probably would've been a reasonable check to things like Kanagskhan and Jirachi as well, and in a way, the vice versa might have been true as well.

The fullroom teams that Mega Camerupt enables (as well as the later Gothlax builds, etc.) might have been able to shake up the Kang/Zap/Fini "durdle squads" that we got tired of.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a number of elements of the Gen 7 DOU meta that never got to interact with each other, and it's kind of a shame. That isn't the fault of the tiering system -- it works well in a metagame that doesn't shift every couple weeks thanks to new Megas filtering in -- but I just feel that if we were to reset the clock and start the suspecting process with all of the now-available Pokemon at play, we'd probably arrive at a different meta then we are at now.
 

Yung Dramps

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ok so apparently the Alola starters got their hidden abilities now, let's discuss

Long Reach Decidueye: shit

Liquid Voice Primarina: Marginally better, but still shit

Intimidate Incineroar: Now, this is exciting. Incineroar is now the only Pokemon in the metagame that has the incredible combo of Fake Out, U-turn and Intimidate. The amount of support Incineroar can provide is going to be quite remarkable, I'm sure. Even prior to this, Incineroar was already being considered to be ranked as a fairly niche mon, but ranked nonetheless. Intimidate will cause this Pokemon's viability to skyrocket. It just packs a lot of offensive and defensive utility with the aforementioned moves + Knock Off, Darkest Lariat, Taunt and more.
 
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I think the tiering system itself is fine (not perfect, but fine). However, the one thing I will say is that Gen 7 in general feels like it has been a moving target since the beginning.

By that I mainly mean that we didn't have all of the Megas available at the beginning - they came in waves of about 2-3 in each increment. We had already suspected a number of Pokemon before we had all the megas, and I'd argue that some of the later Mega releases (Camerupt and Manectric for example) ended up enabling archetypes that weren't as viable previously.

Then you add Marshadow into the mix, and that complicates things further. Marshadow probably would've been a reasonable check to things like Kanagskhan and Jirachi as well, and in a way, the vice versa might have been true as well.

The fullroom teams that Mega Camerupt enables (as well as the later Gothlax builds, etc.) might have been able to shake up the Kang/Zap/Fini "durdle squads" that we got tired of.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a number of elements of the Gen 7 DOU meta that never got to interact with each other, and it's kind of a shame. That isn't the fault of the tiering system -- it works well in a metagame that doesn't shift every couple weeks thanks to new Megas filtering in -- but I just feel that if we were to reset the clock and start the suspecting process with all of the now-available Pokemon at play, we'd probably arrive at a different meta then we are at now.
Dog I'm all for retesting Marshadow if that means that we can try Khan again. I miss her so much in Doubles that I was for a complex ban on the PBond Seismic Toss, but that's another can of worms. She was such an integral member of the Doubles meta game last generation and she had to go because Fairy types. I don't care if PBond ST gets it or not, I want Khan back in the game. And if it goes to shit again, then she'll get the boot. It's worth a shot to shake the meta up again and see where it goes
 
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