Metagame np: NU Stage 13 - Don't Stop Me Now

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erisia

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Honestly I wouldn't be against banning Baton Pass globally. You don't even have to pass stat boosts for it to be effective; Substitute + Baton Pass lets you get a free turn a lot of the time if played correctly. Some mons such as Musharna would miss it as a pivoting move but this is a minor issue at best. Sure not every Baton Pass user is broken but there are so many individual cases that I think it would be much cleaner and clearer to new players to just ban the move outright. Gen 7 will probably only make this worse unless they change its mechanics in a big way.
 
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I was being ironic with my post because some of the dynamic punch arguments were "but it's not broken on every user !!!" argument. And honestly this place shouldn't really be the thread to discuss it, set up a policy review if you intend to take this further. But yeah i agree with the majority that speed boost + baton pass is a really shitty gay strat that has been going on long enough.
It's consistently gay with near any viable counters and it should fuck off in its entirety.
 

yogi

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Well, though I'd post 'bout this whole thing, not that I normally care but this seemed kinda interesting :3 It's written like a short article but meh, idc.

Is Speed Boost + Baton Pass broken?


Recently in the NU metagame, after the last shifts and bans, another mon has been subjected to questioning on whether it is broken or not; enter Combusken. As a standalone mon it isn’t essentially broken, instead being a decent addition to the other fire types that dominate the A ranks with an ability that enables it to outpace the metagame after two to three turns. The problem lies in its access to baton pass, enabling it to pass speed boosts to other teammates. This isn’t just a problem that has arisen recently though, as baton pass plus shell smash was a combo that was banned in NU a while back due to it being too overwhelming (along with baton passing any other stat with speed), putting massive strain on team-building as a result.

Now passing speed to most ‘mons makes them more dangerous, be it from immediate power or set-up opportunities; however, the recent outcry about ‘chickenpass’ has to do with two mons primarily, Malamar and Xatu.




Xatu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Signal Beam/Heat Wave
- Roost
- Stored Power



Malamar @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Both of these mons are dangerous as standalone mons due to contrary and magic bounce being great abilities, with xatu also having access to a wide special movepool. However, when passed one or two boosts they can become almost unstoppable as low speed is what often holds them back, allowing them to outspeed their usual checks/counters (e.g. at +2 Malamar outspeeds Scyther). This makes them potent to teams that don’t bring more than one way of dealing with chickenpass, putting a certain amount of strain on team-building that almost borders on unhealthy.

Does this mean that Speed Boost + Baton Pass is a broken/unfair strategy?

This is where the problems lie. It’s not something that can be simply solved with a ban, because none of these mons are inherently broken, meaning that there cannot be a justifiable reason to ban them. Xatu is a great offensive measure of dealing with hazards, being the only mon in the tier that can punish hazard setters immediately and Malamar is a massive answer to bulkier teams, with the ability to demolish stall.

So… then speed boost + baton pass should be banned? Well, no. Whilst this combo is a powerful one, which can easily threaten most teams, it isn’t broken like shell smash passing because it doesn’t instantly make everything deadly, but instead gives crucial outspeeding options or ability to set-up (like with Xatu and Malamar). It also isn’t nearly as powerful on the other two mons, Whirlipede and Ninjask, due to both having crippling weaknesses to stealth rock and Whirlipede being naturally slow.

In my opinion, the best case scenario that can come from this is banning baton pass on Combusken… But if bans were to get this specific as to affect moves, that means that it could influence how future tests were to be approached.
 
[...] it isn’t broken like shell smash passing because it doesn’t instantly make everything deadly, but instead gives crucial outspeeding options or ability to set-up (like with Xatu and Malamar). It also isn’t nearly as powerful on the other two mons, Whirlipede and Ninjask, due to both having crippling weaknesses to stealth rock and Whirlipede being naturally slow.
While I agree with a lot of what you typed up, this particular notion seems fishy to me - because first of all, speed passes are not exactly useless on Xatu, and second of all, Xatu WILL set up unless it is immediately being heavily threatened. .
I see how it is a big difference whether you get passed +6 speed, or +2 speed and +2 SpA in terms of raw power on most pokemon. Xatu on the other hand gets stored power which immediately makes those speed boosts not only respectable, but actually threatening in themselves.

0 SpA Xatu Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 166-196 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (that is with speed bossts only)

vs

0 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 106-126 (33 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

Not a relevant matchup, just to show the sheer power difference in Psychic and +6 Stored power.


The issue now is though that you HAVE to have an answer in Haze, Clear Smog, Roar, or Malamar or Skuntank, as every other relevant Dark type in the tier takes a LOT from Heatwave after a +1, which Xatu can generally set up very easily. Because if you don't stop it IMMEDIATELY, it spirals out of control very quickly. There is no such thing as quickly sacking a mon to get your answer in safely, because Xatu just clicks set up moves in that case. Sure, it does take Xatu time to set up, longer than all setup sweepers I can think of, but in reality, very, very few things can reliably break through the combination of +6 speed, Roost, CM and Kee Berry, so roaring it out / using Haze / Clear smog is the best option.

Personally, I don't think that makes Chickenpass broken per se. It is an annoying strategy, but it does have its counterplays. I just dislike the fact I have to have another thing checked when building teams, but really, that does not really warrant a ban in my opinion, because you don't have to resort to outlandish stuff like SpD Rotom-F to beat this strategy.

I'll just be building stall teams around Dragon Tail Zweilous until speedpass gets banned.
 
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