Monotype Suspect: Hoopa-Unbound (again)

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Just here to drop my 2 cents, typing from mobile so I will write it short and summarised.

First of all I want to say I agree with Dream Eater Gengar and his arguements, I don't think hoopa is broken at all on dark. But on the other side what do we lose by banning it? Eien made a great point saying Hoopa isn't really always doing what it supposed to do on dark. Fighting has adapted to Hoopa and Fairy can wall choice locked Hoopa with Klefki since Hoopa runs no coverage for that on dark.

Now let's see Hoopa on psychic. How many teams run Hoopa only because it is so strong, especialy the specs set? How many people wanted to run a scarfed Gardevoir but chose Hoopa because there is no drawback? How many run Hoopa because they really need it?

I myself was against a Hoopa ban in the beginning, but I realised the metagame will become so much healthier without it. We will finally see some creativity and innovation on psychic teams and I believe dark will struggle only against water, but it usually lost to Swift Swim anyway.
 
Reply a DEG (lol at this reply combo XD)

I used the specs set like example because I found it on the ladder, but I can use the most common Hoopa U set like example too:

96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Whimsicott: 121-142 (46.3 - 54.4%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO

Like you see just spamming Dark Pulse is enough to win again grass, even whimsicott the dark resist is 2HKOed; bulky Megasaur tanks 2 Dark Pulses but the psychic STAB destroy it. Unsure about how zapdos check it either, unless u are relying on a discharge paralysis.

Anyyways i think we both demostrated our points, so gonna let it rest for the moment (btw gonna read the true lycan post)
 

TheAce22

Banned deucer.
I myself was against a Hoopa ban in the beginning, but I realised the metagame will become so much healthier without it. We will finally see some creativity and innovation on psychic teams and I believe dark will struggle only against water, but it usually lost to Swift Swim anyway.
So.. Losing Hoopa improves the matchup against types like Fairy and Fighting, Idk if I'm misreading or u didn't phrase that right but I don't understand that lol
 
So.. Losing Hoopa improves the matchup against types like Fairy and Fighting, Idk if I'm misreading or u didn't phrase that right but I don't understand that lol

ikr
Not what I meant lol. I was basically saying dark will be pressured a lot by fighting and fairy but not really more than it already did. Hoopa is obviously not a switch in to fighting nor fairy, and those types still hit dark hard, with or without Hoopa.

Edit: To tie this up to our last suspect (sablenite), Sableye was both a defensive switch in and also put pressure with the CM set which is why I considered dark will be hurt a lot even if Sableye was broken. Hoopa won't be too much of a loss IMO.
 

DEG

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You're wrong vlmufa Dark will not only struggle against Water, it will struggle against most types. Do you know that Grass, Electric, Water, and Steel usually have the advantage vs Dark? I'm not saying it's a bad matchup but they do have a slight advantage after recent suspects, do you really want to erase a balancing type in the metagame just for the sake of nerfing Psychic just a little bit, It won't be funny when you play dark and face any of these types adding Fairy and Fighting and know that you have to outplay the mind out of your opponent to win even Psychic has an advantage against Dark so how is that even going to change when you remove Hoopa-U?

If the Hoopa-U is in fact Life Orb it's a hundred time easier to revenge kill, if it's scarf it's walled easier, what's the point? Hoopa-U will be a crucial loss, no need enter the suspect test with that mentality, it's true Mega Sableye was a really solid defensive backbone but it was truly broken like it destroyed so many types unlike Hoopa-U.
 

Confluxx [Old]

Banned deucer.
Just here to drop my 2 cents, typing from mobile so I will write it short and summarised.
Now let's see Hoopa on psychic. How many teams run Hoopa only because it is so strong, especialy the specs set? How many people wanted to run a scarfed Gardevoir but chose Hoopa because there is no drawback? How many run Hoopa because they really need it?
Scarf Hoopa-U on Psychic is a horrible set, and teams with megas that aren't Gardevoir do run a Choice Scarf Gardevoir, or should run it at least, there is nothing stopping them. As far as creativity goes, people will most likely go back to running Meloetta, there won't be a big change in Psychic teams.
 
scipinion said:
These Pokemon aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
I'm pretty sure that in Monotype, that has to be tweaked. Note these examples:

Bug: Volcarona
Dragon: Kyurem-Black
Electric: Zapdos
Fairy: Azumarill, Klefki
Fighting: Keldeo
Fire: Charizard-Mega-Y
Flying: Skarmory
Ghost: Gengar
Grass: Ferrothorn, Venusaur-Mega
Ice: Kyurem-Black
Normal: Staraptor
Poison: Gengar
Psychic: Victini
Rock: Tyranitar, Terrakion
Steel: Heatran, Skarmory

All of these pokemon have >90% usage on their respective types*

scipinion said:
Hoopa is just like Greninja
Nah, I think that 80 speed and 123 speed is a big difference. Greninja can also pivot with U-Turn, making it much more versatile.

Interesting Note: Rampardos has no switch ins on any type.

*1760 Usage Stats
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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I'm pretty sure that in Monotype, that has to be tweaked. Note these examples:

Bug: Volcarona
Dragon: Kyurem-Black
Electric: Zapdos
Fairy: Azumarill, Klefki
Fighting: Keldeo
Fire: Charizard-Mega-Y
Flying: Skarmory
Ghost: Gengar
Grass: Ferrothorn, Venusaur-Mega
Ice: Kyurem-Black
Normal: Staraptor
Poison: Gengar
Psychic: Victini
Rock: Tyranitar, Terrakion
Steel: Heatran, Skarmory

All of these pokemon have >90% usage on their respective types*



Nah, I think that 80 speed and 123 speed is a big difference. Greninja can also pivot with U-Turn, making it much more versatile.

Interesting Note: Rampardos has no switch ins on any type.

*1760 Usage Stats
You're welcome to argue why those are broken. There is a difference between being a staple on a type and too good relative to the whole metagame, though. Each one of those in your list fits the first distinction, but not the latter. Hoopa-U fits both. You forgot to quote the first part of the definition of broken, which qualifies the statement you quoted.

Rampardos KO's itself w/ an inaccurate STAB move and has an awful speed tier (among other drawbacks). By your logic, my Greninja comparison is dubious. Using the same logic, this Rampardos comparison is far worse.
 
scipinion said:
Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
Because Hoopa's speed and pitiful defenses are so low, I feel that Hoopa does still require skillful play to play correctly. Greninja's speed allows it to just click the correct move, not worrying about predictions at all. Hoopa's hard to switch into, but after it's choice locked, it can easily be beaten due to its slow speed.

Rampardos KO's itself w/ an inaccurate STAB move and has an awful speed tier (among other drawbacks). By your logic, my Greninja comparison is dubious. Using the same logic, this Rampardos comparison is far worse.
Rampardos is not a serious threat, and neither was my suggestion that Rampardos is broken.
 
You're wrong vlmufa Dark will not only struggle against Water, it will struggle against most types. Do you know that Grass, Electric, Water, and Steel usually have the advantage vs Dark? I'm not saying it's a bad matchup but they do have a slight advantage after recent suspects, do you really want to erase a balancing type in the metagame just for the sake of nerfing Psychic just a little bit, It won't be funny when you play dark and face any of these types adding Fairy and Fighting and know that you have to outplay the mind out of your opponent to win even Psychic has an advantage against Dark so how is that even going to change when you remove Hoopa-U?

If the Hoopa-U is in fact Life Orb it's a hundred time easier to revenge kill, if it's scarf it's walled easier, what's the point? Hoopa-U will be a crucial loss, no need enter the suspect test with that mentality, it's true Mega Sableye was a really solid defensive backbone but it was truly broken like it destroyed so many types unlike Hoopa-U.
My point however is that the weakness to types like grass or electric can easily be covered by a Hydreigon, which rarely sees usage with Hoopa being in the metagame (another case where people always choose hoopa).

Scarf Hoopa-U on Psychic is a horrible set, and teams with megas that aren't Gardevoir do run a Choice Scarf Gardevoir, or should run it at least, there is nothing stopping them. As far as creativity goes, people will most likely go back to running Meloetta, there won't be a big change in Psychic teams.
I wasn't talking about scarf on psychic, I meant that Hoopa in general affects psychic teambuilding by too much.
 
vlmufa said:
I wasn't talking about scarf on psychic, I meant that Hoopa in general affects psychic teambuilding by too much.
So... Other pokemon do not affect teambuilding as much? Perhaps these Pokemon I mentioned also affect Psychic teambuilding:

Catalystic said:
Bug: Volcarona
Dragon: Kyurem-Black
Electric: Zapdos
Fairy: Azumarill, Klefki
Fighting: Keldeo
Fire: Charizard-Mega-Y
Flying: Skarmory
Ghost: Gengar
Grass: Ferrothorn, Venusaur-Mega
Ice: Kyurem-Black
Normal: Staraptor
Poison: Gengar
Psychic: Victini
Rock: Tyranitar, Terrakion
Steel: Heatran, Skarmory

All of these pokemon have >90% usage on their respective types*
Interestingly enough, Hoopa doesn't even have 90% usage on Psychic at 1760 Glicko.

Edit: The argument that it's a must include or limits teambuilding does not stand for Monotype, and instead, we should focus on whether Hoopa in itself is broken.
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
Well first of all, I don't see how hoopa is suddenly broken af, as it does the same stuff it did earlier, yeah its powerful with specs but, still that set is like really slow and isn't difficult to revenge for most teams + as far as electric and some other types they lose to psychic most of the times anyways. And tbh meleotta is no way a replacement for hoopa(though forcibly it is), I mean there is a huge difference between melo and hoopa(170 and 128 spl attacks duh). It obviously destroys stall waters and steels but against rest of the match-ups like bug, fighting and even dark, it isn't exactly solid. As far as people are hoping to see some creativity in psychic teams, as a former psychic user, there isn't much scope for creativity in psychic teams anyways, if you experiment too much with stuff like siglyph and stuff then your team just under performs in most of the matches unless your opponent allows some of your mons to get up to +3 or something.

Well, coming to dark teams, seriously if you are saying scarf hoopa doesn't help dark you are just lying to remove hoopa from the metagame. Just with the loss of mega sableye dark teams have sufferred against so much specially against mons that can hit all the mons pretty hard like specs keldeo or terrakion(specs keldeo earlier too but whatever). So, making dark that much harder to use just doesn't make sense and that is no way to make a metagame healthier.

Ok, hoopa is stupidly powerful but remember there are lots of mons who are almost impossible to switch-in but that is how this game is built just because something hits hard doesn't mean it should be banned, considering how horrible it is defensively(physical) and slow af.
 
So... Other pokemon do not affect teambuilding as much? Perhaps these Pokemon I mentioned also affect Psychic teambuilding:



Interestingly enough, Hoopa doesn't even have 90% usage on Psychic at 1760 Glicko.
I can't really tell if you are against the ban or not. Are you trying to tell those pokemon are as good as Hoopa or that it makes psychic play differently? I'm confusd.
 

truedrew

Banned deucer.
Hoopa U is broken. zzz seriously people? can anyone actually provide a line of thinking that does not revolve around "omg team backing is op" "omg its greninja bad speed" "omg it has infinite potential on psychic" "omg + random comparison + my opinion so it is right".



Firstly, i would like to congratulate the council for listening to the community as there has been so many instances where people call out the council for not listening and only suspecting what they felt was broken and also claims that various leagues influence the council and that the council is only focusing on making monotype official... Guys stop. The council consists of in my opinion the most competent group of individuals at this point in monotypes development. Whether it changes or not only time will tell and i openly dare anyone to show how they could run things differently. On the other hand the council still needs to be more transparent about how they arrive at certain choices and decisions like when they posted each council members reasoning for some previous suspect (idr which one).

Secondly, Hoopa-U is a pokemon banned in OU if we use their definitions, suspect testing method and clauses why can we not use their reasoning to justify a hoopa ban? OU arguably has many more checks to hoopa still they banned it by a strong majority iirc thus showing that in a metagame where team building is so restricted it is even worse.

 
idk if it's really appropriate to post here considering that i'm not interested in the suspect ladder, but how does hoopa-u restrict teambuilding? i don't think i've ever heard someone say "poison fang nidoqueen is a check" like with mega sableye. the "restrictions" are that dark tends to run it because it improves the matchup against several types like water and fairy. hydreigon can't really be compared to hoopa-u, since flash cannon is its only possible defence against fairy, and most fairies can usually eat that. (plus the fact that it's 4x weak tof airy but hey, it's dark) hydreigon isn't anything near hoopa-u's role on dark. as much as i love the dragon, it really isnt. it's still going to have to run scarf to get something close to like with hoopa-u, and a special steel attack won't really help against fairies. plus the fact that it has mostly entirely different coverage from the standard hoopa-u set on dark

more of the arguments seem to be more on looking at its 160/170 offences and its very usable movepool, despite the fact that scarfed sets usually only run the same few coverage moves, and it's easily worn down by hazards if you recklessly switch it in and get choice locked into something that the other team has an ez switchin into. on psychic i agree that it's a different story, but lbr psychic will just replace hoopa with another stupid powerful mythical pokemon, and might even find a perfect replacement in gen 7. it won't drastically change teambuilding composition on dark or psychic other than probably making dark use mega houndoom or a poison/dark mon for a better fairy matchup or making psychic pick up something with a lot of special attack (hoopa-u can't really be replaced but psychic can probably find something on a similar level as someone else commented)

tl;dr i feel that hoopa-u doesn't truly restrict teambuilding in itself, since dark uses it as a key offensive role that can't be substituted, and psychic has all the legends funnelled into it anyway so it will find a comparable pokemon to fill that role, and no team seriously considers running overspecialised checks that are bad in almost every other matchup like the mega sableye argument.
 
Hoopa in itself has always been a controversial mon to begin with, and with good reason. It has amazing offensive stats that one could only dream of prior to its release, so it has the ability to effectively run a mixed set, or just go solely onto one side. It's also blessed with a plethora of good coverage attacks to fit teambuilding needs. These were some of the main reasons why it was suspected the first time around. Now, all the sudden Choice Specs gains usage, which on paper should be worse than running mixed, since you're limited to only Special Attacks for the most part and you're choice locked, and that's the different* reason as to why its being suspected again? I truthfully don't see the logic behind that, especially saying in the ladder thread to come up with good, different reasons as to why it should be suspected a 2nd time, and squat came up there. Either I'm missing something, or something else is up with that.

Now, I think the argument of "Hoopa having almost no switchins" is being exaggerated. If I was to come up with a few on the bat, I'd say Klefki (HP Fire atm is only at 13% usage, and towards the lower part of the list of moves it uses the most), Physical Defensive Chansey, Dragonite (who also has the ability to quite easily revenge kill it thanks to Extreme Speed), Gliscor (depending on the set), this is just to name a few. There's also the fact that Hoopa-U is not the only pokemon that has little to no switchins. Kyurem-B is someone that also has very little switchins (LO especially). You could also count Volcanion, Mega Medicham (especially when running Thunder Punch to hit Slowbro, and Psychic Coverage), Mega Pinsir, and if you didn't realize, they all have correlation. All of these examples (and I'm probably forgetting some) are all common Wallbreakers. How is Hoopa then any different from any of these? In fact, some of these are actually faster than it, and often carry priority. If they have the ability to break most walls, of course they're gonna be difficult to switch into! You'd probably have to revenge kill them in order to check them 9 times out of 10, correct? That's exactly how Hoopa is, there are plenty of Pokemon that have the ability to outspeed it (and mons that you don't have to run weird/strange sets for like some argued for Mega Sableye, they;re usually fast revenge killers you commonly see as it is) and easily revenge kill it. As for Psychic/Darks defensives cores that are often pivoted to to help keep Hoopa around, from there it's just how you play--none of them are overly difficult to break once so ever. We're talking about Hoopa and Hoopa alone, NOT Hoopa and team support.

There's also the fact that even if it was banned, as I've mentioned already, Psychic isn't gonna be affected (if you look at the stats prior to Hoopa's release, it shows that Psychic was, and still is, one of the most dominant types in the metagame). Dark is gonna be taking the major blow, and at what costs? So we lose a pokemon that is quote on quote "hard to switch into?" That's it? I think it is clear that there are much more minuses than pluses from banning it, therefore I believe it would be wise to leave it be.

Tl;Dr If you care about our metagame, you can take the time to read this.
 
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DEG

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Secondly, Hoopa-U is a pokemon banned in OU if we use their definitions, suspect testing method and clauses why can we not use their reasoning to justify a hoopa ban? OU arguably has many more checks to hoopa still they banned it by a strong majority iirc thus showing that in a metagame where team building is so restricted it is even worse.
No just no, can we not compare Monotype to OU, both are two different metagame. By nature OU is waaaaaay more passive than Monotype, the latter is more offensive allowing to easily check Hoopa-U. Also in OU, Hoopa-U has different teammates that shields its weaknesses which isn't really present in Monotype since the team shares the same weakness. Can we stop comparing both metagames? Thanks.


e: if we wanna use OU as reference lol let's just go with OU Monotype again and forget that it's a different metagame.
 
As for Psychic/Darks defensives cores that are often pivoted to to help keep Hoopa around, from there it's just how you play--none of them are overly difficult to break once so ever. (1) We're talking about Hoopa and Hoopa alone, NOT Hoopa and team support.

There's also the fact that even if it was banned, (2) as I've mentioned already, Psychic isn't gonna be affected (if you look at the stats prior to Hoopa's release, it shows that Psychic was, and still is, one of the most dominant types in the metagame). Dark is gonna be taking the major blow, and at what costs? So we lose a pokemon that is quote on quote "hard to switch into?" That's it? I think it is clear that there are much more minuses than pluses from banning it, therefore I believe it would be wise to leave it be.
1- If that was the case, then loads of pokemons that are banned today wouldn't be ban-worthy. The way the pokemon interacts with its core is definitely something that shouldn't be left unnoticed.

2- The argument that Psychic won't be affected isn't true, and as I have stated before, I am pretty sure most of the types (this includes the ones in the bottom of the ladder) would rather face a Meloetta team than Hoopa.

Hoopa in itself has always been a controversial mon to begin with, and with good reason. It has amazing offensive stats that one could only dream of prior to its release, so it has the ability to effectively run a mixed set, or just go solely onto one side. It's also blessed with a plethora of good coverage attacks to fit teambuilding needs. These were some of the main reasons why it was suspected the first time around. Now, all the sudden Choice Specs gains usage, which on paper should be worse than running mixed, since you're limited to only Special Attacks for the most part and you're choice locked, and that's the different* reason as to why its being suspected again? I truthfully don't see the logic behind that, especially saying in the ladder thread to come up with good, different reasons as to why it should be suspected a 2nd time, and squat came up there. Either I'm missing something, or something else is up with that.
The fact Choice Specs set proved to be viable serves as the exact reason on why it should be suspected. In fact, that's what makes the pokemon so unpredictable, regardless if its better or worse than the mixed set, since the ways of handling both of them are different. And to make things worse, these two sets aren't even the only viable options: Hoopa-Unbound can run the nasty substitute set which can be very hard to counterplay should you get caught offguard.

I am not going to mention comparison such as Rock Polish Landorus that I have seen in other posts because they are clearly not the same case as the one of Hoopa's. Landorus will be very fast at +2 boost but its fairly easy to get around should you survive a hit (which's already easier in first place than Hoopa).
 

DEG

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1- If that was the case, then loads of pokemons that are banned today wouldn't be ban-worthy. The way the pokemon interacts with its core is definitely something that shouldn't be left unnoticed.

2- The argument that Psychic won't be affected isn't true, and as I have stated before, I am pretty sure most of the types (this includes the ones in the bottom of the ladder) would rather face a Meloetta team than Hoopa.
I agree with the number point but the second point applies to a ton of Pokemon in the metagame, most of the types would rather face any other mega than Mega Gyarados, any other Pokemon than Landorus. Meloetta is also way more different than Hoopa-U it hits more types due to its insane coverage, yes it might not have the same offensive stats but still it can hit a good portion of the metagame with its coverage moves.

The fact Choice Specs set proved to be viable serves as the exact reason on why it should be suspected. In fact, that's what makes the pokemon so unpredictable, regardless if its better or worse than the mixed set, since the ways of handling both of them are different. And to make things worse, these two sets aren't even the only viable options: Hoopa-Unbound can run the nasty substitute set which can be very hard to counterplay should you get caught offguard.

I am not going to mention comparison such as Rock Polish Landorus that I have seen in other posts because they are clearly not the same case as the one of Hoopa's. Landorus will be very fast at +2 boost but its fairly easy to get around should you survive a hit (which's already easier in first place than Hoopa).
Uh, the fact Choice Specs is so mediocre in usage doesn't really mean it should be suspected, I could go to usage stats pull a set which have <10% usage and say "omg that Pokemon is unpredictable it can run a lot of sets" that makes no sens. And can we please stop naming random sets just to say "omg it's so broken and unpredictable" it comes with a huge opportunity cost "Guys Hoopa can run Black glasses double dark STAB, please ban it I can't deal with that". Uhh? Sorry? Surviving a hit from Hoopa-U is easier than Landorus? Check back your coverage.


e: fixed typo
 
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I agree with the number point but the second point applies to a ton of Pokemon in the metagame, most of the types would rather face any other mega than Mega Gyarados, any other Pokemon than Landorus. Meloetta is also way more different than Hoopa-U it hits more types due to its insane coverage, yes it might not have the same offensive stats but still it can hit a good portion of the metagame with its coverage moves.



Uh, the fact Choice Specs is so mediocre in usage doesn't really mean it should be suspected, I could go to usage stats pull a set which have <10% usage and say "omg that Pokemon is unpredictable it can run a lot of sets" that makes no sens. And can we please stop naming random sets just to say "omg it's so broken and unpredictable" it comes with a huge opportunity cost "Guys Hoopa can run Black Belt double dark STAB, please ban it I can't deal with that". Uhh? Sorry? Surviving a hit from Hoopa-U is easier than Landorus? Check back your coverage.
Choice Specs might be mediocre in usage, but it has already proven to be a very viable set in Psychic teams. It is very different from an unorthodox set which's meant to check specific threats in the metagame, since it handles lots of different types quite well, while still retaining Hoopa-Unbound's job as a wallbreaker. And yes, you mentioned it yourself ''it can run a lot of sets that makes no sense'', but you can think again, and its something that we all agree on that this is not Hoopa-Unbound's case.

And yes, surviving a hit from Landorus is waaay easier than Hoopa-Unbound. Just compare the special attack/stats. And yes, the same Earth Power, Sludge Wave and Focus Blast (always miss?) set we all know (way less coverage). Also, no mixed sets.

I don't really agree with the Meloetta part. It has got some decent coverage but it is way more predictable and always sticks with the same moveset. It commonly goes for Psyshock, Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, all of which are easy to wall/take with proper prediction (and focus blast is waaay more unreliable due to its poor accuracy and PP). And it is never going with physical moves, unlike Hoopa-Unbound, which can do its job with mixed sets to get past special walls which would otherwise wall it, making it therefore unpredictable.
 
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No just no, can we not compare Monotype to OU, both are two different metagame. By nature OU is waaaaaay more passive than Monotype, the latter is more offensive allowing to easily check Hoopa-U. Also in OU, Hoopa-U has different teammates that shields its weaknesses which isn't really present in Monotype since the team shares the same weakness. Can we stop comparing both metagames? Thanks.


e: if we wanna use OU as reference lol let's just go with OU Monotype again and forget that it's a different metagame.
I used to agree with this. But in a sense we are closer to OU now than you might think. Due to the fact that we no longer care if a mon is neccesary to a type. And we no longer have type bans. The only differences with OU and us is team support and whether it destroys multiple types. To be honest if a mon is broken in OU, as long as it wasn't broken due to team support, I can't think of any possible reason why it wouldn't be banned here as well with the new precedents that have been set.

So, I'd say Hoopa -U is just as broken here as it is in OU. True, we should not be using OU's decisions as our own. But I think it could have valid influence in the type of meta that we have become.
 
Hoopa in itself has always been a controversial mon to begin with, and with good reason. It has amazing offensive stats that one could only dream of prior to its release, so it has the ability to effectively run a mixed set, or just go solely onto one side. It's also blessed with a plethora of good coverage attacks to fit teambuilding needs. These were some of the main reasons why it was suspected the first time around. Now, all the sudden Choice Specs gains usage, which on paper should be worse than running mixed, since you're limited to only Special Attacks for the most part and you're choice locked, and that's the different* reason as to why its being suspected again? I truthfully don't see the logic behind that, especially saying in the ladder thread to come up with good, different reasons as to why it should be suspected a 2nd time, and squat came up there. Either I'm missing something, or something else is up with that.

Now, I think the argument of "Hoopa having almost no switchins" is being exaggerated. If I was to come up with a few on the bat, I'd say Klefki (HP Fire atm is only at 13% usage, and towards the lower part of the list of moves it uses the most), Physical Defensive Chansey, Dragonite (who also has the ability to quite easily revenge kill it thanks to Extreme Speed), Gliscor (depending on the set), this is just to name a few. There's also the fact that Hoopa-U is not the only pokemon that has little to no switchins. Kyurem-B is someone that also has very little switchins (LO especially). You could also count Volcanion, Mega Medicham (especially when running Thunder Punch to hit Slowbro, and Psychic Coverage), Mega Pinsir, and if you didn't realize, they all have correlation. All of these examples (and I'm probably forgetting some) are all common Wallbreakers. How is Hoopa then any different from any of these? In fact, some of these are actually faster than it, and often carry priority. If they have the ability to break most walls, of course they're gonna be difficult to switch into! You'd probably have to revenge kill them in order to check them 9 times out of 10, correct? That's exactly how Hoopa is, there are plenty of Pokemon that have the ability to outspeed it (and mons that you don't have to run weird/strange sets for like some argued for Mega Sableye, they;re usually fast revenge killers you commonly see as it is) and easily revenge kill it. As for Psychic/Darks defensives cores that are often pivoted to to help keep Hoopa around, from there it's just how you play--none of them are overly difficult to break once so ever. We're talking about Hoopa and Hoopa alone, NOT Hoopa and team support.

There's also the fact that even if it was banned, as I've mentioned already, Psychic isn't gonna be affected (if you look at the stats prior to Hoopa's release, it shows that Psychic was, and still is, one of the most dominant types in the metagame). Dark is gonna be taking the major blow, and at what costs? So we lose a pokemon that is quote on quote "hard to switch into?" That's it? I think it is clear that there are much more minuses than pluses from banning it, therefore I believe it would be wise to leave it be.

Tl;Dr If you care about our metagame, you can take the time to read this.
I'm sorry but to just look at the mon and not look at its team support is ridiculous as its a factor that plays into how good a pokemon is, if we were to look at hoopa alone then we would have to ignore what it adds to dark as we have to look at what hoopa adds to what the rest of the team lacks. What you also fail to appreciate is the fact that Hoopa has the ability to carry items along with having higher attack stats on top of having an item, Pinsir is still easily walled unless it gets an SD because it will only carry Ground or Fighting Coverage which pales in comparison to Hoopa-U's coverage which is what makes it hard to switch in on. Dragonite also struggles to revenge kill against the support that Dark and Psychic have. The thing with hoopa is its unpredictable as well you cant just throw chansey infront of until you know its specs which normally results in the sacking of a mon or a protect to find out, it basically gets a kill whenever it gets a free switch in which it gets plenty of thanks to the cores of both dark and psychic which all the other wallbreakers you mention lack besides medi and at the moment we can see both medi and hoopa on the same team ripping pretty much any wall in the meta to shreds and this suspect will help to weaken that offensive core just as losing genesect weakened bugs offensive core.
Also id argue it isn't as slow as some people say Base 80 while below average is by no means slow it's still faster than the likes of Diggersby and Volcanion which both tend to have to run adamant and modest respectively unlike hoopa who is free to run timid or jolly due to its gargantuan attacking stats.
Instead of theorymoning it may be worth building dark teams without hoopa to get a truer feel for how things are I built one earlier and its working ok at the moment though tbf its low ladder and while slightly unrelated i originally though bug would be helpless without genesect however it bounced back I may not baas able with it anymore but it proved me wrong as i felt it was such an integral part of bug and I'm optimistic that dark can do the same
 

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Choice Specs might be mediocre in usage, but it has already proven to be a very viable set in Psychic teams. It is very different from an unorthodox set which's meant to check specific threats in the metagame, since it handles lots of different types quite well, while still retaining Hoopa-Unbound's job as a wallbreaker. And yes, you mentioned it yourself ''it can run a lot of sets that makes no sense'', but you can think again, and its something that we all agree on that this is not Hoopa-Unbound's case.

And yes, surviving a hit from Landorus is waaay easier than Hoopa-Unbound. Just compare the special attack/stats. And yes, the same Earth Power, Sludge Wave and Focus Blast (always miss?) set we all know. Also, no mixed sets.

I don't really agree with the Meloetta part. It has got some decent coverage but it is way more predictable and always sticks with the same moveset. It commonly goes for Psyshock, Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, all of which are easy to wall/take with proper prediction (and focus blast is waaay more unreliable due to its poor accuracy and PP). And it is never going with physical moves, unlike Hoopa-Unbound, which can do its job with mixed sets to get past special walls which would otherwise wall it, making it therefore unpredictable.
Basing your argument on a mediocre set in usage isn't really solid in my opinion as i said before because you can just throw any moveset on any Pokemon and say it's unpredictable. Also if what I'm saying isn't true why isn't your side giving counter-arguments that other that Hoopa-U is easily revenge killed, because that's true, you seriously need one switchin to automatically guess its moveset if it wasn't obvious, Choice Scarf on Dark, Steel Breaker on Psychic. Uh, no? Sheer Force Life Orb+Unpredictability and it makes use of mixed stats did you forget Knock Off and Rock Slide other than these special moves, and saying Focus Blast isn't accurate isn't a reason to say it's not good. Also Meloetta doesn't only use these moves, and can run SubCM.

I used to agree with this. But in a sense we are closer to OU now than you might think. Due to the fact that we no longer care if a mon is neccesary to a type. And we no longer have type bans. The only differences with OU and us is team support and whether it destroys multiple types. To be honest if a mon is broken in OU, as long as it wasn't broken due to team support, I can't think of any possible reason why it wouldn't be banned here as well with the new precedents that have been set.

So, I'd say Hoopa -U is just as broken here as it is in OU. True, we should not be using OU's decisions as our own. But I think it could have valid influence in the type of meta that we have become.
Then why are we ever bothering and create our on banlist? If that's the case, all these suspects are useless. Let's ban Deoxys and other Ubers and bring back Mega Sableye.

I'm sorry but to just look at the mon and not look at its team support is ridiculous as its a factor that plays into how good a pokemon is, if we were to look at hoopa alone then we would have to ignore what it adds to dark as we have to look at what hoopa adds to what the rest of the team lacks. What you also fail to appreciate is the fact that Hoopa has the ability to carry items along with having higher attack stats on top of having an item, Pinsir is still easily walled unless it gets an SD because it will only carry Ground or Fighting Coverage which pales in comparison to Hoopa-U's coverage which is what makes it hard to switch in on. Dragonite also struggles to revenge kill against the support that Dark and Psychic have. The thing with hoopa is its unpredictable as well you cant just throw chansey infront of until you know its specs which normally results in the sacking of a mon or a protect to find out, it basically gets a kill whenever it gets a free switch in which it gets plenty of thanks to the cores of both dark and psychic which all the other wallbreakers you mention lack besides medi and at the moment we can see both medi and hoopa on the same team ripping pretty much any wall in the meta to shreds and this suspect will help to weaken that offensive core just as losing genesect weakened bugs offensive core.
Also id argue it isn't as slow as some people say Base 80 while below average is by no means slow it's still faster than the likes of Diggersby and Volcanion which both tend to have to run adamant and modest respectively unlike hoopa who is free to run timid or jolly due to its gargantuan attacking stats.
Instead of theorymoning it may be worth building dark teams without hoopa to get a truer feel for how things are I built one earlier and its working ok at the moment though tbf its low ladder and while slightly unrelated i originally though bug would be helpless without genesect however it bounced back I may not baas able with it anymore but it proved me wrong as i felt it was such an integral part of bug and I'm optimistic that dark can do the same
Yea, we shouldn't look at the Pokemon alone but can we stop making Hoopa-U sound like Arceus or something. And yes it can be easily revenge killed, do you understand the pressure while using Hoopa-U? Mega Pinsir deserves a topic alone, I don't see how it doesn't sweep a lot of types but yea I won't go deep in this. Even with the team support offensive pressure can actually wear down these Pokemon that backup Hoopa-U. Bug was always a good type even without Genesect so it didn't really matter. Being optimistic does sometimes help but to think about the future I'd rather look at the worse, since it's the truth and I'm not going to hide it.
 
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Yea, we shouldn't look at the Pokemon alone but can we stop making Hoopa-U sound like Arceus or something. And yes it can be easily revenge killed, do you understand the pressure while using Hoopa-U? Mega Pinsir deserves a topic alone, I don't see how it doesn't sweep a lot of types but yea I won't go deep in this. Even with the team support offensive pressure can actually wear down these Pokemon that backup Hoopa-U. Bug was always a good type even without Genesect so it didn't really matter. Being optimistic does sometimes help but to think about the future I'd rather look at the worse, since it's the truth and I'm not going to hide it.
It isn't my intention to make out Hoopa-U to be arceus and yes i do understand that Hoopa can crumble under pressure on Dark having played Dark for a while however most things that try to revenge Hoopa tend to be choice locked due scarf Hoopa being the dominant set, which means with the right predictions hoopa can be kept healthy, of course there are other threats i wont deny this however a good chunk of them can be played around. One example I can give is terrakion, Dark possesses the pokemon capable of switching into any of its general 4 moves if you can predict it correctly the dark team can gain the momentum, yes it's pressure but there is also a degree of pressure on the opponent to make the correct move. Bug is fine without genesect yes but to use a similar point that you made without it it struggled to threaten many flying teams without it just as hoopaless dark may struggle to threaten fighting but I'm sure dark will find workarounds just as bug did is all.
 
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