M&M Mix and Mega Resources

I think Regigigas should either be quick-banned or suspected, and I'll explain why in this post.

Oh yeah, and let me just point out Regi’s moveset before I start:

Metagrossite: Normal STAB, Drain Punch/Superpower, Earthquake/Fire Punch, Ice Punch/Stone Edge/Thunder Punch

Aerodactylite: Normal STAB, Drain Punch/Superpower, Fire Punch/Knock Off, Thunder Punch/Ice Punch

Pinsirite: Flying STAB (which is “Normal STAB), Drain Punch/Superpower, Earthquake/Fire Punch, Ice Punch/Stone Edge

other niche moves: Knock Off for Ghostceus and other ghost types; Iron Head for Mimikyu


So many people say “Oh well, Regigigas has a good amount of checks and quite decent counters. That I will not argue. Indeed it is true that pokemon like Arceus-Ghost, Primal-Groudon (etc.) can successfully check and punish Regigigas. However, we must consider one has teammates. Successful switches and hazard stacking can wear down the aforementioned pokemon, as well as a few others --- mainly because many “stallish“ pokemon can be beat by its immense coverage. A counter argument to this may be two things: 1. Regigigas can be worn down via hazards; and 2. You can run hazard removal so that Regigigas’s checks will not get worn down. For #1, it is probably the only viable counter argument for not banning Regigigas. However, Regigigas’s speed is quite fast with Metagrossite/Aerodactylite/Pinsirite [140/120/120 respectively], and so usually it can still do a decent job at wall-breaking and forcing switches. For #2, I do not think hazard removal is a viable counter argument. In fact, I’m pretty sure no pokemon learns Defog and successfully walls Regigigas except for the different Arceus forms (Skarmory can get beat by Thunder Punch). Regigigas can keep the pressure up, and do its job wonderfully by constantly forcing switches and denting holes in the opposing team. Here I have explained counter argument I constantly see, and hopefully persuaded you that Regi’s flaws are not actually that bad.

Now I will explain why I think Regigigas should be banned. First of all, Regigigas’s stats are exceptional. With a starting whopping 160 attack, 110/110/110 defenses, and a decent 100 speed, Regigigas has a good start for when it mega-evolves. It has its terrible ability removed, and gets a better one over it. This is why in generation six it was banned, and even with the addition of different ghost types, it should be banned once again. Like I said, most of the checks can be worn down. Another reason I think Regigigas should be banned is because it is versatile --- enough to the point where its coverage beats many offensive and defensive pokemon. It can run three different stones very well, and each stone does a different thing. Regigigas’s teammates usually include a hazard setter, a pivot, and two nukes. That is because of its versatility and ability to force switches.

Combine that with immense overcentralization. While you may not know it, most people have more than one check/counter to Regigigas. Why is that so? I think that is because it is very (maybe too) good and most people feel the need to doubly or triply check it. Regigigas’s usage rate is ranked #4, but it is harder to check than some of the other pokemon that have more usage than it. Now this could go either way on the opinion, as a person who thinks “do not ban” might imply that the reason alot of people use so many checks to Regigigas is because Regigigas is easily checkable. That might be the case, but let’s take a deeper look into the checks to Regigigas:


(note: this data is from the sample teams of 8 teams) (also note a check is a 3hko+ from Metagrossite [the weakest])


Primal Groudon: 7 --- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 193-228 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO (not even)
252+ Atk Regigigas Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 194-230 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

Arceus-Ghost: 2 --- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 123-145 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO

Cresselia: 2 --- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 144-169 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO

Offensive:

Pheromosa: 4 [one shots Regigigas]

note: you may find other viable checks/counters, but they most likely aren't that good


As you can see, only Arceus-Ghost and Cresselia are really hard counters. However Ghostceus usually does not run recovery, and Regi teams always have something for Cress. It just shows how many checks there really are to Regigigas (like five excluding Arceus formes) and gives a good idea on how overcentralizing it is.


As you might now know, Regigigas is broken and overcentralizing, and it requires little skill to use. I hope at least we can have a suspect on this Grains of Salt
We have already banned it, I'm afraid. Also, in the future this sort of post should og in the main thread, or when we get it the Mix and Mega Suspects and Bans thread.
 
And with that, mentions of Reigigigas from the Speed tiers is gone. Even though I have lesser power here, I can still make suggestions or that VR thing....

- Moltres (Red Orb, Absolite) should be placed at B- rank. It's very powerful, and has a good source of healing, as well as Wisp access to punish physical attackers (except those dang Facade Dragonites) along with Blue Orb mons that think they have a free pass...

-Solgaleo needs to be bumped up to B+, at the very least. It's actually really incredible, not only taking hits very well, but also dishing them out. The only downside is that the best thing it can do to Zapdos is lob a Toxic at it, and it loses to Primal Groudon without a +3 Earthquake.

-Add Deoxys to the Nasty Plot section, Donphan to the Stealth Rocks, Gyaradosite, Vensaurite, and Rapid Spin sections, and remove Pheromosa from the Rapid Spin section. Add Lycanrok to the Gyaradosite and Stealth Rocks section, along as mentioning it as a viable Sucker Punch user. Add Galvantula to the Sticky Web section so we at least have one there.

E D I T: GYARADOSITE ALERT. We need more of them! The call has answered!
Add... Crobat, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Rhyperior, Hippowdon, Toxapex, and Necrozma AND MEW to the Gyaradosite list. Add all of them minus Crobat and Toxapex to the Stealth Rock list, the Nidos to the Toxic Spikes list, and Hippowdon to the Roar list. Also include Crobat in the Nasty Plot list, too.

In addition, add Rhyperior and Blaziken to the Charizardite X users. They're both surprisingly decent. (edit: maybe no Rhyperior, as it is a gimmick, but it is a good Pinsirite user, at least)

And trust me; they're all viable. To certain degrees of viability. But that list is pretty empty, so we need as many decent mons as we can muster...
 
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Alright I got some nominations.

A -> A+: Pheromosa is a monstrous threat, it has a blazing speed stat of 151 which can be boosted by Metagrossite to 191 at best allowing it to outspeed all of the relevant threats in the meta while still keeping a strong tough claws boosted attack stat of 141. If you want it to hit harder you can give it Lucarionite which gives it an attack stat of 172 and adaptability allowing it to chunk even the bulkiest of walls with adaptability high jump kicks while still having an amazing speed stat of 173. STAB High Jump Kick is going to be hurting everything it hits due to its high base power, you just have to be a little bit wary of ghost types and protect. Ice beam allows Phero to hit non Venusaurite flying types for at least neutral damage and Poison jab allows it to hit fairy types which can come in handy since Metagrossite Phero outspeeds +2 geoxern unless its running a substantial amount of speed investment. The only thing that pheromosa really has to worry about is priority and the aforementioned ghost types. For the former there is little that you can do about it but for the latter if you see one you can always scout with u-turn and gain momentum in almost any situation. This mon just has too much versatility and power to stay in A rank.

A- -> B: Albeit it is not horrible with its good speed stat and can hit decently hard under electric terrain, it is just very underwhelming in practice. Once electric terrain wears off or is canceled, it is stuck dealing with either an attack stat of 110 and a special attack stat of 95 pre mega, which even with stones is very weak in comparison to other mons. Base 140 attack with aerilate is okay, but it is still very weak due to its lack of a boosting move and wild charge is only 90 base power out of electric terrain. Its special sets are decent under terrain but again, it has to work with a base 95 s.atk stat and its only boosting move is calm mind thus making it pale in comparison to other threats. Its just far too weak to be ranked that high.

B+ -> A- or A: Magearna is a very interesting case, it has good defenses of 80/115/115 so you would think it would be a wall due to its great defensive typing but it doesn't have to movepool to be a wall. Instead it acts as a check of sorts to a lot of threats which it can switch in on and then chunking whatever switches in with its base s.atk stat of 130 combined with STAB fairy type Draco Meteor. Sablenite is my personal stone of choice which gives it sizeable boost in bulk along with a small boost in power while also gaining a way to bounce back status moves or hazards and non Mold Breaker Taunt. Avoiding Taunt is important because part of Magearna's utility comes in Heart Swap and Pain Split, which allow it to swap away its s.atk drops and possibly gain something like a Tail Glow boost. Pain Split gives it some form of longevity and can help wear down the opposing team. Magearna also has other tricks up its sleeve such as Volt Switch, Aura Sphere, Shift Gear and Soul Heart pre-mega, all of which have their own merits and can be effective in their own ways. The fact that it has that good bulk with that typing combined with a very powerful offensive presence I believe is definitely enough for a rise in rank.
 
magerna fits perfectly on stall teams and complete breaks set up mons
koko can hit hard in general even without the terrain but with pdon everywhere it does not shine as much as it should and i dont know if its just me but a mixed set is a decent (im glad this thing does not get play rough) lucaralite makes it hit very hard
i have not seen phero much my only thing is its annoying when paired with a volt switch user such as koko stab u turn into stab voltswitch hurts if you dont have something that resists both (as far as i have seen you most people do its called pdon)

and one last thing pdon is over centralized but its not over centralizing like regi correct?
What i mean is every one uses pdon cause it blanket checks alot of things so it makes team building alot easier but its not down right broken unlike regi which people used cause you basicly had to run a regi to beat a regi kinda thing

correct me if i am wrong with any of my statements please :)
 
magerna fits perfectly on stall teams and complete breaks set up mons
koko can hit hard in general even without the terrain but with pdon everywhere it does not shine as much as it should and i dont know if its just me but a mixed set is a decent (im glad this thing does not get play rough) lucaralite makes it hit very hard
i have not seen phero much my only thing is its annoying when paired with a volt switch user such as koko stab u turn into stab voltswitch hurts if you dont have something that resists both (as far as i have seen you most people do its called pdon)


and one last thing pdon is over centralized but its not over centralizing like regi correct?
What i mean is every one uses pdon cause it blanket checks alot of things so it makes team building alot easier but its not down right broken unlike regi which people used cause you basicly had to run a regi to beat a regi kinda thing

correct me if i am wrong with any of my statements please :)
Yeah, all of those observations are correct. Though Tapu Koko can strike back against Primal Groudon either with Nature's Madness or Toxic. This does mean that while Primal Groudon is everywhere, wearing it down might mean Tapu Koko has free reign over the other team, sans other speed boosting moves such as Dragon Dance.
And Primal Groudon just make teambuilding easier in general, but it has some pretty common answers, and a grand number of niche ones, too.

This is also the reason you won't see all Tapu Koko use Volt Switch, but instead use U-turn.
In my mind, Tapu Koko doesn't actually need that much damage most of the time. Its job is to shred offense, and most of the time (barring Pheromosa for obvious reasons), it can pull that off. While it's not the strongest thing around, it's very close to the fastest, making it a huge threat, as it often just pivots out, and can use Grass Knot to hurt bulky Ground types. That's why it's A-rank, and I feel that fits it perfectly. Also, if it does manage to keep itself in its base form until it needs to Mega Evolve, it also benefits from Electric Terrain, which is a big boost.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Alright I got some nominations.

A -> A+: Pheromosa is a monstrous threat, it has a blazing speed stat of 151 which can be boosted by Metagrossite to 191 at best allowing it to outspeed all of the relevant threats in the meta while still keeping a strong tough claws boosted attack stat of 141. If you want it to hit harder you can give it Lucarionite which gives it an attack stat of 172 and adaptability allowing it to chunk even the bulkiest of walls with adaptability high jump kicks while still having an amazing speed stat of 173. STAB High Jump Kick is going to be hurting everything it hits due to its high base power, you just have to be a little bit wary of ghost types and protect. Ice beam allows Phero to hit non Venusaurite flying types for at least neutral damage and Poison jab allows it to hit fairy types which can come in handy since Metagrossite Phero outspeeds +2 geoxern unless its running a substantial amount of speed investment. The only thing that pheromosa really has to worry about is priority and the aforementioned ghost types. For the former there is little that you can do about it but for the latter if you see one you can always scout with u-turn and gain momentum in almost any situation. This mon just has too much versatility and power to stay in A rank.

A- -> B: Albeit it is not horrible with its good speed stat and can hit decently hard under electric terrain, it is just very underwhelming in practice. Once electric terrain wears off or is canceled, it is stuck dealing with either an attack stat of 110 and a special attack stat of 95 pre mega, which even with stones is very weak in comparison to other mons. Base 140 attack with aerilate is okay, but it is still very weak due to its lack of a boosting move and wild charge is only 90 base power out of electric terrain. Its special sets are decent under terrain but again, it has to work with a base 95 s.atk stat and its only boosting move is calm mind thus making it pale in comparison to other threats. Its just far too weak to be ranked that high.

B+ -> A- or A: Magearna is a very interesting case, it has good defenses of 80/115/115 so you would think it would be a wall due to its great defensive typing but it doesn't have to movepool to be a wall. Instead it acts as a check of sorts to a lot of threats which it can switch in on and then chunking whatever switches in with its base s.atk stat of 130 combined with STAB fairy type Draco Meteor. Sablenite is my personal stone of choice which gives it sizeable boost in bulk along with a small boost in power while also gaining a way to bounce back status moves or hazards and non Mold Breaker Taunt. Avoiding Taunt is important because part of Magearna's utility comes in Heart Swap and Pain Split, which allow it to swap away its s.atk drops and possibly gain something like a Tail Glow boost. Pain Split gives it some form of longevity and can help wear down the opposing team. Magearna also has other tricks up its sleeve such as Volt Switch, Aura Sphere, Shift Gear and Soul Heart pre-mega, all of which have their own merits and can be effective in their own ways. The fact that it has that good bulk with that typing combined with a very powerful offensive presence I believe is definitely enough for a rise in rank.
I agree with the first two, but wouldn't support Mag going to A (I'm fine with A- though). It is a decent enough pivot (and can even run surprise sets such as Absolite AoA, Red Orb, and [probably] Pinsirite decently well) but it's main niche of being a great Kyub check and being a great GeoXern check are hurt by the fact that Kyub was banned and most Xern are scarf anyway. It also can't do much to Fire-types. So yeah it's a good pivot but not worthy of higher than A- imo.
 
I agree with the first two, but wouldn't support Mag going to A (I'm fine with A- though). It is a decent enough pivot (and can even run surprise sets such as Absolite AoA, Red Orb, and [probably] Pinsirite decently well) but it's main niche of being a great Kyub check and being a great GeoXern check are hurt by the fact that Kyub was banned and most Xern are scarf anyway. It also can't do much to Fire-types. So yeah it's a good pivot but not worthy of higher than A- imo.
It has a very weak shift gear physical pinsirite set but it falls flat in comparison. You would be surprised at how much fleur cannon does to fire types though. A- is a good spot for it.
 
I'd agree with Magerna going A- instead of B+. It has really great bulk in combination with Sablenite, amazing type combo that allows it to come in to alot of stuff, including very important switch ins to priority users such as Weavile, Dragonite and Genesect. It can also play mind games with Primal Groudon if it hasn't set up Stealth Rocks. Infact, I think with Magic Bounce, an amazing type combination and good offenses and somewhat of an unpredictability should make Magearna A. It glues teams, allows safe switch ins, reflects Stealth Rock and Toxic, etc.
 
Just a question, why does Ferrothorn not have a rank?
It hasn't had enough high level use for us to be aware of how functional it is in the current metagame. If you have used it successfully, feel free to show some replays or explain why it should be ranked a certain place.


As for myself, I feel like magearna is somewhat overhyped. Primal Groudon just laughs at almost anything it does, even stealing momentum on volt switch, and it doesn't wall -ate either. While it can check some threats such as Tapu Lele and stops some setup sweepers, others such Dragonite or Arceus-ghost can instead bypass it. It also struggles with staying healthy to check what it needs to, as pain split is far from reliable. I wouldn't oppose A- overmuch, but I feel as though full A oversells its niche.
 
Looking purely at the usage statistics...

Ferrothorn
Raw count: 1279
Avg. weight: 0.0843915650822
Viability Ceiling: 84

Ferrothorn probably deserves around a B, from B- to B+, depending on how everyone feels about it.
It is inevitably going to be compared to Scizor, Skarmory, and its brother Celesteela. There are a few things that differentiate it from the other main Blue Orb Steels.

- Like Celesteela, it has no reliable recovery, so is vulnerable to getting worn down, but also has Leech Seed to mitigate this, also like Celesteela.
- Has access to Stealth Rocks and Spikes as well, sharing this trait with Skarmory.
- Unlike the rest of these Steel types, it gets Power Whip, and has STAB on it, which seriously hurts Primal Groundons that decide to switch in on Ferrothorn, and anything else that thinks it's passive. Only Celesteela can damage Groudon as much.
- Gyro Ball from Ferrothorn also hurts, but only on faster offensive threats.
- On a similar note, it has some pretty strange moves in its repertoire... including Thunder and Bulldoze, which can be used to make Ferrothorn an incredibly sneaky lure to certain threats. I don't recommend this unless you know exactly what you want Ferrothorn to do.
- Ferrothorn notably lacks Defog. Keep that in mind when picking, as well.
- All of them except for Celesteela can learn Swords Dance, meaning they could break walls if they wanted to.

So yeah. For something called the plague of OU by certain groups of people, it's rather versatile. I'll have to use this myself to get a more informed opinion about it now. On the surface, it seems like the Blue Orb Steel with the most standalone offensive potential, but easily the hardest of them to use....
 

Fardin

Tournament Banned
Yveltal from B- to A-
I think most mnm players already know that yveltal does not belong in a low rank such as B-...lo yveltal is able to ohko or at least 2ko almost everysingle A and all S rank poke. it also has the bulk to live at least a hit so it could finish up its opp the next turn by either using obvlivion wing to get some health back, or a dark arua boosted sucker punch depending on the situation. even its most popular check(other than fairy ceus) mage is not that reliable of a switch in since it has heatwave
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 114+ SpD Magearna: 164-195 (45 - 53.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Sablenite)
I dont think i need to go into it any further...
 
I'm going to second here Pheromosa to A+; it's one of the best offensive mons rn, and since you need -ate support tha's not even an issue. It just does so much; fast strong uturn is a godsend for every setup sweeper in the metagame, and while it has checks it excells at wearing them down. It has pretty much the same checks as dnite, so when they try and switch in their fairyceus or zapdos you can happily wear them down for a dnite sweep - especially with hazards up. I'd almost go for S, but one step at a time.

Speaking of hazards, Deo-S need to go to at least A-, probably flat A. It's the best hazard setter bar maybe pdon for rocks, has taunt+magic coat to screw over other rockers, has decent offensive prescence, and a goddamn amazing speed tier that outpaces pheromosa for offense. On any HO team it's a must have, and it makes setting rocks so easy to do. It also just invalidates most other leads, as stuff like Mandibuzz with a 4x SE uturn just does 57%.

It's also about time Genesect and Dragonite switch places. Genesect is a decent wallbreaker, but Rockceus and Zapdos just shit on it, while the commonality of SPD pdon and rocks gives it lots of issues. It's not bad, especially when you have download boosts or use it to pivot with the threat of mega evolving, but S rank material it is not. Dnite, meanwhile, is just about the most dangerouns wincon in the meta. Where gene struggles, it excells; EQ for rockceus, edge for zapdos, return for Groundceus, etc... it can bypass almost any answer and just sets up so easily. As far as support goes, hazards+pivots is all it needs, and it needs them far less than genesect, which also needs lures for those sweepers and copious hazards. Dnite is just so insanely splashable, dangerous, and useful that not putting it S would be a travesty.
 
It's also about time Genesect and Dragonite switch places. Genesect is a decent wallbreaker, but Rockceus and Zapdos just shit on it, while the commonality of SPD pdon and rocks gives it lots of issues. It's not bad, especially when you have download boosts or use it to pivot with the threat of mega evolving, but S rank material it is not. Dnite, meanwhile, is just about the most dangerouns wincon in the meta. Where gene struggles, it excells; EQ for rockceus, edge for zapdos, return for Groundceus, etc... it can bypass almost any answer and just sets up so easily. As far as support goes, hazards+pivots is all it needs, and it needs them far less than genesect, which also needs lures for those sweepers and copious hazards. Dnite is just so insanely splashable, dangerous, and useful that not putting it S would be a travesty.
I fully agree with the rest of what you say, but Genesect should also stay as an S-rank.. it also has ways to circumvent its counters. U-turn is a simple get away button, and it has answers for all of its defensive counters... Flash Cannon for Rockceus (though it still wrecks Genesect if it's Mega Evolved), Ice Beam for Zapdos (especially if it's coming in not Mega Evolved), and Thunderbolt for those Steel/Flying types. Pair this with Techno Blast nuking just about every physical wall that doesn't resist it and Extreme Speed making it an incredibly potent revenge killer, and you have something that can, and does, shape a tier. And it can Explode if it really needs to, but that's typically a bit of a waste unless you want something dead immediately. Its biggest fault is losing to Extreme Speed itself, something it has in common with Pheromosa.

Anyways, nominations:

Mew for B/B+: We need Mew somewhere, if only as a placeholder for later. It's way too good to not include, as akin to Arceus, it can pick what deals with it. While it can't really handle U-Turn often, it still has the option to resist it. What we said about Mew is still true now; unless you know the person, the best you can do with Mew is guess what it is... which is enough time for it to get the upper hand.

Ferrothorn for B+: I don't know why it took me this long to find out that Ferrothorn is good. Blue Orb variants (the only one, in my book) deal with so many meta threats... Tapu Koko, Zapdos, can annoy the heck out of Primal Groudon... add this to the fact that its STABs hurt, and can OHKO frailer threats, and you have something that is good on defense. It's bad against Sablenite walls, but it is much better against offensive teams.

Dialga from C to ?: Dialga's clearly improved from the flak it received from me back in Gen 6. Perhaps it has something to do with the Fairypocaplse becoming a thing, but Dialga's type is suddenly far better than before. Steel and Dragon also hit a fair few of the defensive walls around the tier, and it can set Stealth Rocks, too. ...I'll get a more definitive answer to how much it needs to rise once I test it out.

Lycanrok-Midday to C/B-: I'm leaning towards B- with this one, but maybe C is a good place, too. It seems to me that it has found a clear niche as either a fast lead or a revenge killer with the option to boost, which is rather important in Mix and Mega. It also resists Extreme Speed from Pinsirite, and has exclusive access to Accelrock, which can revenge varous flying types (and Genesect). It benefits the most from Scizorite and Gyaradosite, but either way, its low bulk and somewhat shallow offensive movepool lets it down.

Celesteela from C to B/B- (add Venusaurite to suggested stones): Surprising even me, Celesteela has seen relative success in Mix and Mega, even surpassing Xurkitree's performance. There's probably also the fact that it can utilize Leech Seed much like Ferrothorn, and also has a wide variety of attacking moves, allowing for it to be versatile in the method it takes on offensive mons. I don't buy all of the hype right now, but a modest increase should work... Venusaruite is mainly due to that Ice resistance, which makes it a good Weavile switch-in, as well.

Pinsirite Zygarde from B to A: Zygarde's a monster, and is one of the trio of Extreme Speeders that remained on the board, as opposed to Arcanine, which has partially dropped off, and Entei, which seems to have fallen off of the map the month. Zygarde has both Coil and Dragon Dance Extreme Speed sets, and while it is the weakest of the main users, this snake is also far and away the bulkiest of them, making it easy to nab at least one boost. Thousand Arrows is also a very good buff to Zygarde, allowing it to nail Celesteela, Zapdos, and Skarmory easier. Played well, Pinsirite Zygarde is pretty much guaranteed to get at least one KO and some damage on another thing at worst. At best, it sweeps teams. It's enough to show me that Pinsirite Zygarde is equivalent to Zygarde-Complete...
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.

A -> A+: Agree

Pheromosa is a staple threat on practically all offensive builds and can dictate the pase of the match at any given moment thanks to its incredible offensive stats and unrivaled speed stat. Once -ates/priority is gone, Pheromosa can really just proceed to at least 2HKO the majority of S-A ranks bar Zapdos, Golissopod, Arceus-Fairy, Arceus-Ghost, and Xerneas really. It basically necessitates these checks in order for a team to actually be effective in the current metagame honestly. Some Pheromosa have even been starting to run Pjab, Sub, Or Quiver Dance to bypass these checks. Its really the prime example of a glass cannon that applies the right amount of pressure to make up for the lack of any defensive synergy really, which is why I agree it should rise.



S -> A+: Disagree

I still believe Genesect is just too versatile and threatening to warrant it leaving its S-Rank status. While I will admit it does need hazard removal support and has some trouble breking through common walls such as Zapdos, Blissey, and Arceus-Fairy, Genesect still should stay where it is due to how it can act as a wincon, offensive pivot, and mixed wallbreaker all in one teamslot. While it has a slight 4MSS (mainly when picking between U-Turn, Shift Gear, Tbolt, and Ice Beam), the fact that Genesect has access to all these options at its disposal without having to forego that much opp cost is just insane. Especially when you look at the current meta, where bulky offense builds remain to be the most consistent playstyle, Genesect can capitalize on this by virtue of all the offensive tools in its kit (mainly its ability to hit from both sides and to boost + its outstanding coverage). The decline of offensive Fires bar Primal Groudon (which it can always comfortably 2HKO) also benefits Genesect even more. I find the meta shifts have just been in Genesect's favor too much for it to drop right now.



A+ -> S: Agree

I have been using Dragonite extensively ever since it came back into the meta and straight up its really dumb. Bulky DD sets have been my proffered way of sweeping as of late with the use of Stone Edge to target its checks in Zapdos and Mandibuzz. Really Dragonite requires minimal support to just clean sweep (with only hazard removal being nice to keep Mscale in tact). Flying + Ground + Rock coverage hits every important meta threat relatively well and it can also check a bunch of threats itself in Primal Groudon, Golissopod, Lucario, offensive Zygarde-C, and Venusaur (which I will touch upon later). Dragonite is one of the main proponents as to why we are seeing a meta where Flying-resists are vital components to any defensive core. It can even go around its checks with Frustration for Arceus-Fairy, Stone Edge for birds, and I have been even starting to see Ice Beam to hit defensive Zygarde-C as of late. Its really a meta defining threat as it was last gen and should rise to S.



B- -> B+/A-: Agree

B- is criminally low for Yvetlal lol. Even though it loses the viability of one of its standard sets in Choice Band, Mixed Life Orb and Choice Specs Yvetal still remains to be the hidden threat to all balance/bulky offensive teams due to Dark resists being so scarce atm bar Arceus-Fairy (which is 2HKOed by SPecs Hurricane), and Magearna (which gets roasted by Heat Wave). Liek Fardin had mentioned, Yveltal can 1v1 many of the top meta threats such as Hoopa-U, Arceus-Ghost, and Lunala comfortably. It applies great offensive pressure while also providing good defensive synergy on teams as well. It has a hard time breaking through Blissey, but besides that it really should rise to at least B+.


Two of my own noms:



B -> A-/A

Mega Gengar is probably one of the best balance breakers in the current metagame. With Shadow Tag, it can trap so many threats such as Zapdos, Arceus-Fairy, Arceus-Water, Skarmory, and Cresselia, which can be really important for offensive teams. Its ability to force matchups coupled with the support it provides offensive mosn who love their checks to be gone is currently undisputed in Mix and Mega. It enables many threats such as Pheromosa, Manaphy, and Zygarde to have a much more easier time setting up and can provide such an annoyance to bulkier teams. The main drawback it has is the prevalence of Sablenite Blissey (which can wall it), but Mega Gengar offers too much to stay in the B ranks imo, and definitely should rise.



UR -> B-

I have been using Red Orb Venusaur a lot recently and it should definitely be ranked on the VR. Growth sets can demolish defensive teams as both Cresselia and Blissey fear of begin 2HKOed by a +2 Weather Ball under the Sun. It also checks a bunch of threats such as Pheromosa, Manaphy, Xerneas, Kartana, and Magearna. It does not like the prevalence of Fire resists such as Dragonite, Zygarde, and Arcanine, but it still can be a great asset for balance teams needing a solid wallbreaker.

Replay of it in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-529197558


Also agree with Mew nom, reg Zygarde can stay where it is for now
 

nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Ok so I told people I would make a big update and provide an overhaul as well so here it goes.

Changes
Rise
A+ to S
A to A+
B+ to A-

Drop
A- to B+
C to UR

Discuss
B to A-
C to B-
B+ to A-/A
B- to B+/A-
UR to B-
UR to ???
UR to B/B+
UR to ???

As you can see, we have gathered quite a few discussion points (that don't have enough support or opposition to warrant being moved on my own volition) so I felt like it was a good time to start shaping the VR now that the metagame has started to settle. I took a bit of liberty with some of the mons that were in the VR such as normal Groudon and Lucario as I felt they were ranked in places they shouldn't be or outclassed by other Pokemon. This means I need your guys's help in determining where these Pokemon will ultimately end up and hopefully make the VR as up-to-date as possible.

To start this off, I have a nomination of my own that I want some discussion on:

Zygarde-Complete: A --> A+
This beast, introduced in Generation 7, has become a major threat in not just Mix and Mega, but nearly every other OM as well. Particularly in Mix and Mega, Zygarde-Complete uses its fantastic 216 / 121 / 95 bulk to completely wall a lot of powerful threats such as Primal Groudon and Lucarionite Terrakion. It also has a wonderful versatility in its movesets as it can be a good physical wall or even a great win con. Furthermore, Thousand Arrows allows it to only have the need to run one attacking move as it doesn't have to worry about Flying-types or Levitate mons. The reason it deserves a rise, however, is because of what mons it checks coupled with the freedom to run essentially whatever it wants. With Primal Groudon opting for Rock coverage to take on Golisopod and Venusaurite Zapdos, Zygarde-Complete has become the go-to PDon hard check as it walls its STAB moves as well as its common coverage. Its versatility is unmatched as well since there isn't a viable Pokemon that has the ability to run one STAB move and be so threatening. While Zygarde-Complete does suffer a Speed drop upon transforming, it doesn't matter as it has enough to outspeed common Sablenite mons even without investment while also having a good enough Speed tier to even use unorthodox sets such as RestTalk DD.

Some replays featuring both "standard" sets:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-526961802 RestTalk + Coil
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-517050467 Physically Defensive

As for those that have to be discussed:

B to A-
Agree

Mega Gengar has always been a great asset to any offensive team (and even balance or stall) as it can be tailored to take care of any of its partner Pokemon's checks and counters by trapping them and subsequently getting rid of them. While it is fairly frail and lacks a solid Speed stat for an offensive mon, it does help ease issues for certain teams by eliminating things that may stop Dragonite or Terrakion from sweeping.

C to B-
Agree

I have been trying out Venusaurite Celesteela as of late and it hasn't disappointed. While it lacks reliable recovery unlike its fellow Steel/Flying Pokemon, Skarmory, it makes up for it by having better all-around bulk and a reliable STAB move in Heavy Slam (Brave Bird on Skarmory makes it wear down itself while Iron Head isn't as strong). Celesteela also has a bit more versatility to it as it has a plethora of weird moves (Leech Seed, Flamethrower, etc.) which allows it to be a big annoyance to some teams.

B+ to A-/A
Disagree

Deoxys-Speed is the only truly good entry hazard setter on offensive teams due to the nature of Mold Breaker thanks to Gyaradosite. Its access to SR, Spikes, Taunt, and Magic Coat all allow it to be a fantastic lead as well as anti-lead as it can force Sablenite Pokemon, who generally try to bounce back hazards, to attack while setting down entry hazards in their face. This does, however, make Deoxys-Speed a bit predictable, meaning that a well-versed opponent knows how to take care of it to where it won't be able to set up as many entry hazards as it would like or any at all. Also, Deo-S only truly fits on offensive builds which, while common, don't appreciate the lack of bulk most offense tends to have in Mix and Mega.
 
I am aware I talked about mot of these, but I want to talk about the others, too.

B to A-
Agree

Mega Gengar's pretty good at hurting stall teams badly, thanks to no part with Perish Song. It also has good speed and power to take out bulky and frail threats alike, making sure they can't run away after Gengar has gotten to them.. It isn't as scary as Pidgeotite Gengar was, but it can trap Blissey, which is important. Sadly (or fortunately, depending on who you ask), it has no boosting moves. It also takes a ton from Extreme Speed in general, and is just quite frail for Mix and Mega standards.

B+ to A-/A
Unsure

On one hand, Deoxys-S is the fastest hazard setter around, and is also able to utilize Nasty Plot for a more offensive role. On the other hand, it has pretty bad 4MSS, at least if it's offensive. There's several forms of coverage Deoxys-S wants to run, along with Taunt and hazards, maybe a status move... It's a good supporter, but it wants some HP investment as well... 50 base HP is not enough to take the hits. There's also the fact that Mew might just outclass it in everything except being very fast.

B- to B+/A-
Agree

Yveltal was mainly held back by Fairy Extreme Speeders last time. They don't exist right now. As such, Yveltal is good. He'll become markedly worse when they do begin to exist. For now, he's an incredibly solid choice for offense and defense alike.

UR to B-
Agree

Having used and seen Venusaur in the past (with a variant that's awful now), I can tell you that Red Orb Venusaur is pretty viable, having its main competition with Raikou and Roserade. Compared to Roserade, Venusaur is slower, but studier. Both of them are not nature-locked using Weather Ball, either. Grass/Fire is also a nice typing that resists a great amount of threats, also dealing with Tapu Koko and Xurkitree handily. Venusaur does okay against Pheromosa, though Roserade simply gets OHKOed by High Jump Kick.


Because we didn't have enough discussion points...

Crobat
This is one of those Pokémon that appeared as a part of a successful team out of the blue. I think it's worthy of a rank, using primarily Gyaradosite. I saw you using one of these, nv. I have a question: how is Salamancite Crobat? It seems better than Lucarionite. Interestingly, Red Orb is the mot common set. But is it good compared to the other sets?

Raichu
Known as a bad Extreme Speeder in the past, Raichu also was part of a successful team. I am less sure about adding this to the VR, but it seems Nuzzle gives it a niche as an annoyer...? Discuss.
 
I honestly think Shaymin-Sky should get more recognition in this tier. It works great with Lucaronite or Absolite. I can get replays of it doing well against skilled players (people with over 1300 points). If you want proof in a real battle then my PS name is Huntress_Of_Rooted. Challenge me to Mix and Mega if you like. Here are the sets I run. Try them out if you want.

Shaymin-Sky @ Lucarionite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 3 Def / 252 SpA / 3 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Shaymin-Sky @ Absolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 3 Def / 252 SpA / 3 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
 
Nominating Zoroark to C
With red orb and webs support, it's one of the best set up sweepers imo. Only thing that's been holding this monster back was it's low speed and bad bulk which makes it hard for it to set up, but Illusion(yh, it works even with Red Orb) and webs solves those problems..it def deserves at least a C for sure considering that it swept 2 MnM open finalists who shall remain nameless >,<

E. It gets Nasty plot + flamethrower which hits incredibly hard under sun
I prefer Absolite it can use the extra Speed plus Magic Bounce. Trust me on this it would do horrible in the meta against Rock Arceus, Lando, and what ever else there is.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I prefer Absolite it can use the extra Speed plus Magic Bounce. Trust me on this it would do horrible in the meta against Rock Arceus, Lando, and what ever else there is.
Its not strong enough to sweep with it, and the extra Fire covargae is very useful..also rock ceus and lando are very rare these days
What I agree and want to add:
* Zoroark's already-strong offensive stats are even better paired with Absolite, allowing it to do absurd damage with Nasty Plot and with its phenomenal movepool.
* Red Orb turns Zoroark into a monster and allows it to take priority moves a little better thanks to Red Orb providing a little defense, but this does not grant additional speed and ruins the Illusion immediately.
* Illusion, with appropriate mind game, may give Zoroark an opportunity to set up and this is very devastating to opposing team, especially if they are defense-oriented.
* Magic Bounce after Mega Evolution also allows Zoroark to set up on passive threats or even bait for status / hazard control moves.

What I do not agree:
* Rock Arceus is one of the best checks for Defoggers (bar other support Arceus forms). Since most of them are Flying-types, Arceus-Rock can force them out and spread status to next switch-in, or smack them with Judgment and force them to use recovery move while Arceus can switch into ally and keeping momentum, or simply force them out after attack and discourage them from switching in again until passive foe is on the field.

Overall Zoroark is pmuch Hoopa-U with more speed, lack of dual typing, and worse special bulk. I might wanna call it a 'dangerous gamble'.
 

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