Milotic (Analysis)

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Updated with JC104's check... getting to the others! Just confused--am I supposed to use my better judgment regarding multiple, contradictory checks? I've implemented Somailas brief check, too...

 

[jc104]

If in doubt you should go with the official checker, but we all make mistakes, so do so within reason. Also dont hesitate to ask if there is something you aren't sure about.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I've actually gotten around to testing the second set and I'm starting to feel in favor of 252 HP/252 Defense/4 Speed/Special Defense for the Rest-talker! With Marvel Scale activated, the evs make Milotic far bulkier than Skarmory with plenty of special defense (286), As nice as balanced defenses are. 394/42?/286 defenses let you comfortably take care of most physical threats. If I change the spread for one set, does that mean I have to play the QC game all over again?

 

[RazeHell]

I'd like to throw in this set for consideration:

[Overview]
Milotic is gifted with above average Special Defense, Marvel Scale, and Recover. These traits allow Milotic to play as a powerful staller.

[set]
name: ToxicStall
item: Burn Orb
ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 156 def / 102 spdf
nature: Bold
move 1: Recover
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Surf
move 4: Fling/Light Screen

[Set comments]
Not much to say here. Milotic uses Toxic/Recover (in the case that opponent might make an attack) on the first turn. Milotic then uses Fling/Light Screen, allowing Milotic to minimize chances of defeat (Of course, Fling is entirely situational). Milotic then proceeds to attempt to stall with Recover and Surf.

[Checks and counters]
Obviously, anything with Rest will have an easy time surviving Milotic's annoying tactics. In addition, Steel types like Metagross can easily scare away Milotic, once it is rid of its Burn Orb. Also, anything with high Attack stats will break through Milotic's defenses and deal a lot of damage.


Any criticism? I just thought this up and I think it might work.

EDIT: apparently I have no idea what is going on. Copyediting means that you aren't taking any more sets?

 

[Zystral]

[Overview]

<p>Milotic moves into the new generation retaining her status as the only pure bulky, pure Water-type with instant, self-sufficient recovery. Above-average HP, excellent Special Attack, and phenomenal Special Defense allow Milotic to function as a great mixed wall that is also capable of dishing out its own damage. Marvel Scale remains a unique, defensive ability that sets Milotic apart from the other bulky Water-types as a status absorber or a Sleep Talk user. Despite only a minute increase to its already shallow movepool, Milotic has some new toys to play with in Generation V. Scald is a welcomed asset, burns helping protect Milotic's weaker defensive stat and Dragon Tail gives it much-needed phazing. Since these options are TM-based, Milotic is one of the few Pokemon who can enjoy the generational transition with no detrimental impact. In a chaotic, new world dominated by offense, Milotic establishes itself as a moderate defensive check, not supporting the team so much as disrupting the opponent.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Recover
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Dragon Tail / Toxic / Haze
item: Leftovers
ability: Marvel Scale
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes advantage of Milotic’s access to Recover, which frees up an extra moveslot for both offensive and support moves. The defensive EV spread makes the most of Milotic's mixed wall potential, providing her with solid 394 HP and 280+ defenses. Scald and Ice Beam allow Milotic to exercise her robust 100 base Special Attack. Scald's 30% burn chance means that most physical sweepers must be wary of switching in, lest they be crippled. Ice Beam rounds out Milotic's coverage, notable targets including Garchomp and Haxorus especially in the realm of dragon-slaying. The 4 offensive EVs guarantee Ice Beam's OHKO on Salamence without any defensive investment.</p>

<p>The choice of support move is at the player’s discretion, each having its own merits; Toxic allows Milotic to make short work of her fellow bulky Water-types and works well with Recover-stalling, whereas Dragon Tail allows Milotic to bounce away setup sweepers and inflict extra damage through entry hazards. It also bypasses Taunt, but unlike Haze, it is liable to miss, albeit rarely, and fails to get rid of opponents behind a Substitute.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Toxic can be used over Ice Beam which would allow Milotic to shuffle status across an opponent's team with Dragon Tail. If one is turned off by the idea of conflicting statuses, then Surf can be used over Scald. However, most opponents will enjoy neither burn nor Toxic, ensuring that rendering Surf's additional base power is not worth it an inferior choice. Milotic can fit on both bulky offensive and pure stall teams as both welcome a defensive pivot with the potential to hit back. Entry hazard support is always welcome. Milotic enjoys being part of a Fire/Water/Grass core; Ferrothorn, Roserade, and Erufuun come to mind as worthwhile Grass-type partners, especially with the entry hazard potential of the first two. Heatran and Chandelure are great Fire-type choices as in most cases Milotic can pave the way for their sweep by eliminating enemy Water-types.</p>

<p>Milotic works wonderfully in tandem with sweepers that fear Ice-, Water-, or Fire-type moves; Latios, Dragonite, Garchomp, Scizor, Lucario and most other Dragon- and Steel-types work as teammates. They allow Milotic to avoid getting into stall wars with the most resilient of walls. With Poison Heal, Gliscor or Breloom can switch in and absorb threatening Toxic and Electric-type moves. Milotic can happily switch into an opponent’s attempts at set-up and status; an activated Marvel Scale gives Milotic the potential to exceed Skarmory’s Defense. Opposing Scalds, the first layer of Toxic Spikes, and Will-O-Wisp all provide optimal opportunities to switch in and grab the defensive boost.</p>

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Scald
move 4: Dragon Tail
item: Leftovers
ability: Marvel Scale
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The fabled strategy of RestTalking is definitely still viable on Milotic because she is the only Pokemon that receives a defensive reward for using Rest, through Marvel Scale. Scald, again, is the primary STAB because of its chance to enhance Milotic's walling ability. Dragon Tail finally allows Milotic to join the phazing ranks of Gyarados and Swampert, becoming a team player of sorts as it can hamper opposing efforts to setup or spread status. With Sleep Talk, Dragon Tail loses its negative priority, allowing Milotic to phaze slower opponents before they even have a chance to move. Milotic is a solid choice over Gyarados in this niche because of its lack of Stealth Rock weakness, better Special Defense, the boost from Marvel Scale, and lack of an easily exploitable 4x weakness to Electric-type moves.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread and nature take advantage of the 50% defensive boost of Marvel Scale, giving Milotic greater Special Defense as Milotic's physical walling capabilities will be heightened most of the time. Enjoying respectable defenses of 394 HP/ 254 Def/319 SpD before sleeping, While Marvel Scale is inactive, Milotic sits at 394 HP, 254 Defense, and 319 Special Defense. After using rest, Milotic's physical defense soars to 381 under status. Rest and Scald actually allow Milotic to handle any of the five major statuses and restore itself to full health. An Attack-lowering nature is used because Dragon Tail is being used to phaze rather than as a legitimate attacking option. Before choosing this over Gyarados, one has to consider defenses, damage roll, and burn chance. Marvel Scale also makes Milotic a viable choice over Suicune, but as always, one must weigh the many pros and cons of Dragon Tail vs Roar.</p>

<p>Entry hazards of all kinds are welcome, although at least two are recommended to make full use of Milotic's phazing powers., but One should probably take into account the fact that Toxic Spikes is somewhat counter-productive with Scald, however. As Milotic is still effectively acting as a mixed wall, it's a good idea to have Pokemon in the wings who are entirely focused on one defensive stat, such as Blissey or Snorlax and Hippowdon or Skarmory. Like Jellicent, Milotic has high Special Defense and the power to burn its foes, but the sea serpent isn't Pursuit weak and boasts superior physical defense, even before it is augmented by Rest and Marvel Scale. As Milotic and Jellicent have similar niches, it is recommended that one relies on other spin-blockers such as Spiritomb, Chandelure, or Dusclops.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>With Scald disabling physical sweepers, Milotic can try Mirror Coat to nail Special Attackers as well. For this, a spread focusing on Special Defense is recommended as Milotic needs all the investment it can get to survive and reflect the most powerful of special moves. Light Screen, when combined with Scald, can be used to increase Milotic's overall defenses. A Calm nature with 252 HP/200 Defense/56 Special Defense makes a good balance, but Milotic will want to focus most of its EVs on physical Defense this generation to differentiate itself from Jellicent</p>

<p>Hidden Power Electric and Hidden Power Grass are offensive alternatives to Ice Beam or the support options on the Recover set, but Milotic won't be doing as much damage to its fellow Water-types as it would with Toxic. Hidden Power Fire is another option to deal with Ferrothorn, but doesn't offer many other benefits. A Life Orb set is also a possibility, but difficult to run as although Milotic has great Special Attack, barely better-than-average Speed, a poor offensive movepool and no stat-boosting move leave it to coverage-based tanking at best.</p>

<p>Magic Coat's increased versatility this generation extends to Milotic as well, although more often than not, Milotic is happy to take a status move. Hypnosis was once a staple on Milotic last generation and it remains a viable option with the sleep counter shenanigans of Gen V, although Scald and Toxic are more consistent options.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>For all of its splendor and bulk, Milotic is easily 2HKOed by powerful Grass- and Electric-type moves. Zapdos, Thundurus, Virizion, Breloom, Celebi, Jolteon, and Lilligant can all counter Milotic quite effectively with their STAB moves, but the majority of them won't like being hit by Ice Beam or badly poisoned. Ferrothorn and Whimsicott make Milotic's life hellish as they can sap massive amounts of health through Leech Seed--Ferrothorn is especially troublesome as it can setup entry hazards. However, Scald can be troublesome as Ferrothorn will be unable to kill Milotic with Power Whip if it's burned. The RestTalker can also outrun it and, should Sleep Talk select Dragon Tail, phaze it before it gets a chance to move. If Milotic switches into either Ferrothorn's Thunder Wave or Whimsicott's Stun Spore, killing her will be much harder. Milotic needs Ice Beam to slay dragons and Grass-types, Toxic to overcome bulky Water-types, and Haze to counter Substitute sweepers. Once you figure out its support move, it's relatively simple to counter appropriately. Jellicent might have a chance if it's running Energy Ball or Toxic, but Taunt will only work on the switch-in as Milotic can easily outspeed and use Toxic itself. Out of all the other bulky Water-types, Tentacruel counters Milotic the best by either draining its health or badly poisoning it while resisting whatever Milotic tries to dish out. However, if Tentacruel is used to set up Toxic Spikes, one should be careful of a Milotic switch-in nabbing the Marvel Scale boost on the first layer.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Milotic gets the hopeless Cute Charm—more appropriately Intoxicating Body in Japan—which gives a 30% chance to inflict the Attract status on a member of the opposite gender. Given that Marvel Scale is one of the only reasons to run Milotic and Cute Charm is unlikely to go off unless your opponent runs a single gender team, there is never a good reason to play with this Dream World ability.</p>

I took this from the very first post, so any changes made between then and now are not here. If you want to adjust the EV spread AFTER write-up, then just ask a member of QC, and they'll say either yes or no. Try to avoid changing the prose if necessary. Aside from that

2/2 approved

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I'll be on it shortly... So does anyone from QC have any objections from changing the ev spread for the Rest-Talker from 252 HP/240 Defense/16 Special Defense to 252 HP, 252 Defense/4 Speed? To be honest, the original spread came from various rumors that I had heard, but in this physically based metagame, Milotic can be one of the best Status absorbers/phazers. The first spread does a so-so job at being a mixed wall--I'm not sure what the numbers do... but with 394 HP/420+ defense/286 Special Defense, it;s just great!

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I'll be on it shortly... So does anyone from QC have any objections from changing the ev spread for the Rest-Talker from 252 HP/240 Defense/16 Special Defense to 252 HP, 252 Defense/4 Speed? To be honest, the original spread came from various rumors that I had heard, but in this physically based metagame, Milotic can be one of the best Status absorbers/phazers. The first spread does a so-so job at being a mixed wall--I'm not sure what the numbers do... but with 394 HP/420+ defense/286 Special Defense, it;s just great!

Honestly, Maximum HP and Defense is fine, and I'd actually use it rather than get fancy with the extra SpD EVs. The analysis really doesn’t explain the significance of the SpD EVs, and the investment is actually minimal because it only offers 4 extra Special Defense points. Invest fully in HP and Defense, because the extra SpD investment won’t do anything significant overall (unless you have a specific example, but still).

No reason to worry about the GP checks over this either; go ahead and implement the changes.

 

[RaikouLover]

The extra SpDef lets you easily stall out LO Starmie's Thunderbolt, but that spread is better with Recover for that reason.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

The extra SpDef lets you easily stall out LO Starmie's Thunderbolt, but that spread is better with Recover for that reason.

I'll put it in AC! Going to edit the spread!

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Can I get one last check on the sections I changed? Otherwise it's done!

 

[Fatecrashers]

it would help if you told us which sections you changed!

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

it would help if you told us which sections you changed!

Specifically, the sentences about Sleeping Beauty's ev spread and Jellicent.
"As with the Recover set, the EV spread and nature give Milotic near-equal defensive stats. While Marvel Scale is inactive, Milotic sits at 394 HP, 282 Defense, and 286 Special Defense. However, after a Rest, Milotic's Defense skyrockets to an incredibly durable 423. It is also of interest to note that the combination of Rest and Scald actually allows Milotic to handle any of the five major statuses and restore itself to full health."

"Jellicent might have a chance if it's running Energy Ball or Toxic against the Recover set while Taunt will only work on the Rest-Talk set. Milotic can easily outspeed Jellicent and use Toxic itself while the jellyfish will find it hard to do any damage back."

 

[Fatecrashers]

well scald doesn't actually help you deal with status, and rest can't deal with freeze or sleep
so i would change that part to:

It is also of interest to note that Rest actually allows Milotic to handle burn, paralysis, and poison with ease and restore itself to full health, in addition to providing the helpful Marvel Scale boost.

also

Jellicent might have a chance if it's running Energy Ball or Toxic against the Recover set while Taunt will only work on the RestTalk set. Milotic can easily outspeed Jellicent and use Toxic itself while the ghostly jellyfish will find it hard to do any damage back.

otherwise fine

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

well scald doesn't actually help you deal with status, and rest can't deal with freeze or sleep
so i would change that part to:

It is also of interest to note that Rest actually allows Milotic to handle burn, paralysis, and poison with ease and restore itself to full health, in addition to providing the helpful Marvel Scale boost.

also

Jellicent might have a chance if it's running Energy Ball or Toxic against the Recover set while Taunt will only work on the RestTalk set. Milotic can easily outspeed Jellicent and use Toxic itself while the ghostly jellyfish will find it hard to do any damage back.

otherwise fine

Actually, Scald lets you escape freezing! So with Rest you can effectively counter any status!

 

[Fatecrashers]

ah ok my bad then

change to this:

It is also of interest to note that the combination of RestTalk and Scald actually allows Milotic to handle any of the major statuses, and restore itself to full health.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Thank you! I'll do it in a bit :)

 

[44lvlc0]

also try
moves:boiling water,icebeam,confuzeray/toxic(i suggest confuze ray 'cause boiling water will probably get the burn which will cripple the atk of opponent and this will wall Heatrans so toxic will not work)/hypnosis,recover
EV's: 200hp,58 spatk,252 spdef
item:leftys
nature:calm
abilty: marvel scale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQTewYdcspA
walls off heatrans really well :D

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

also try
moves:boiling water,icebeam,confuzeray/toxic(i suggest confuze ray 'cause boiling water will probably get the burn which will cripple the atk of opponent and this will wall Heatrans so toxic will not work)/hypnosis,recover
EV's: 200hp,58 spatk,252 spdef
item:leftys
nature:calm
abilty: marvel scale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQTewYdcspA
walls off heatrans really well :D

Actually, even without any special defensive investment, Milotic can easily wall any attacking Heatran and kill it--with the exception of the SubTorment user, who counters most bulky waters as it is!

 

[44lvlc0]

Actually, even without any special defensive investment, Milotic can easily wall any attacking Heatran and kill it--with the exception of the SubTorment user, who counters most bulky waters as it is!

nah.... i think this set works better :D

 

[Majora_younglink]

also try
moves:boiling water,icebeam,confuzeray/toxic(i suggest confuze ray 'cause boiling water will probably get the burn which will cripple the atk of opponent and this will wall Heatrans so toxic will not work)/hypnosis,recover
EV's: 200hp,58 spatk,252 spdef
item:leftys
nature:calm
abilty: marvel scale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQTewYdcspA
walls off heatrans really well :D

Easily exploited for it's low special attack and set up on by most of the metagame, also Heatran always has trouble with bulk water types so the whole point to wall Heatran is redundant as hell. This is before even mentioning that there are reasons why specially defensive Milotics aren't put in the OU analysis.

 

[Fatecrashers]

please remove any garchomp mentions

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

please remove any garchomp mentions

Oh yea, sorry! Actually do I have permission to make a minor nitpick with the set? Switching the slash between Toxic and Ice Beam, so that Dragon Tail is the main secondary option? The end of Garchomp's reign in OU actually makes Toxic better in most situations.

 

[Fatecrashers]

uploaded