Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

[Marigold]

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Hidden Power [Fire]

So uh... base 105 sp atk is surprisingly usable. I've been using it to muscle through mega scizor and pressure ferrothorn/forretress (lol) out from setting up spikes. Calcs for reference:

0 SpA Metagross-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 160-192 (46.6 - 55.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Metagross-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 136-164 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Metagross-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 432-512 (166.7 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Metagross-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 272-324 (76.8 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's not terribly useless outside of killing the usual megagross checks. For example, It can bring down opposing megagross into scarfchomp range.

0 SpA Metagross-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 84-100 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after the hp fire)

I used -def nature, but idk if it's better to cut that or spdef. Thoughts?

 

[latios663]

I was just wondering: OU tiering council, what are your reasons for NOT banning Landorus-Therian? It is completely unbalanced, with no major checks, other than Skarmory, is very versatile between its offensive and defensive stats, usage was over half for a time, and everyone who doesn't use one hates it. What are the reasons???

 

[Shouting]

I was just wondering: OU tiering council, what are your reasons for NOT banning Landorus-Therian? It is completely unbalanced, with no major checks, other than Skarmory, is very versatile between its offensive and defensive stats, usage was over half for a time, and everyone who doesn't use one hates it. What are the reasons???

I've been trying to get this across for a long time. It won't work for some reason. I believe that the line of thought is that we "need" Lando-T to check stuff in the metagame. But if you brought that reasoning to the genesect or phermosa suspect you get met with "Well, then we'll just ban xyz that the mon checked if they get out of control" but that logic apparently doesn't work with lando-t.

The best is that the reasoning behind BOTH the Phermosa and Genesect ban (and even greninja last gen) apply to Lando-T. There are too many sets, and the sets don't share checks. Anything that survives SD Skystrike falls to +2 Crush and vise versa, barring very niche stuff like Bronzong that doesn't fit on many play styles (and even that drops to Knock Off).

You also don't know what set it is from team preview, you could switch into Skarm thinking it is some defensive set but you eat a +2 CC that KOs.

Don't waste your breath


EDIT: It also has always been this way too basically. Even the BW analysis bluntly says there are no Lando-T counters

 

[Martin]

HP Fire Mega Metagross is literally only good for Scizor, which is already very heavily pressured to Roost just to check this thing consistently to the point that it can be easily overwhelmed if it wants to fulfill its other roles such as Defogging (especially noteworthy considering Spikes is broken) and can be pressured in a pinch by Mash atk rises (not to mention you have literally five teammates for this one threat). Forretress is bad and immensely irrelevant (not to mention v. easy to pressure and setup bait for virtually everything), Kartana and Ferrothorn already get nailed by Hammer Arm (Ferro actively takes less from HP Fire, Kartana is OHKOed by Hammer Arm w/ Rocks anyway whilst dying >50% of the time w/o hazards), and being forced to run Naive/Hasty blows 'cause it eats into Metagross' extremely solid bulk and, as such, its ability to come in on attacks to check things. This is a bad lure because it sacrifices too much for the sake of hitting one Pokemon.

 

[Leo]

I was just wondering: OU tiering council, what are your reasons for NOT banning Landorus-Therian? It is completely unbalanced, with no major checks, other than Skarmory, is very versatile between its offensive and defensive stats, usage was over half for a time, and everyone who doesn't use one hates it. What are the reasons???

If you want actual reasoning you should PM someone from the council asking them and they'll surely give you a proper answer cause I don't think they even read this thread lol

I've been trying to get this across for a long time. It won't work for some reason. I believe that the line of thought is that we "need" Lando-T to check stuff in the metagame. But if you brought that reasoning to the genesect or phermosa suspect you get met with "Well, then we'll just ban xyz that the mon checked if they get out of control" but that logic apparently doesn't work with lando-t.

The best is that the reasoning behind BOTH the Phermosa and Genesect ban (and even greninja last gen) apply to Lando-T. There are too many sets, and the sets don't share checks. Anything that survives SD Skystrike falls to +2 Crush and vise versa, barring very niche stuff like Bronzong that doesn't fit on many play styles (and even that drops to Knock Off).

You also don't know what set it is from team preview, you could switch into Skarm thinking it is some defensive set but you eat a +2 CC that KOs.

Don't waste your breath


EDIT: It also has always been this way too basically. Even the BW analysis bluntly says there are no Lando-T counters

I don't think you understand the difference between mons like Mosa and Gene and Lando-T. Basically, Pheromosa and Genesect restricted teambuilding in a way that you needed to carry specific answers for them to not outright lose to them with very little to no counterplay. That's why mons like Marowak were everywhere back then and why Pex Offense became a thing. On the other hand Lando-T does have counterplay and doesn't force you to carry Skarm on any team because its offensive sets are way easier to offensively check and play around than stuff like QD Mosa or LO Genesect (even Protean Gren I'd say but that's still in the tier lol). In a real game scenario you don't outright lose from matchup if you lack a specific Lando-T answer whereas you will struggle a ton against aforementioned mons

 

[Shouting]

If you want actual reasoning you should PM someone from the council asking them and they'll surely give you a proper answer cause I don't think they even read this thread lol

I don't think you understand the difference between mons like Mosa and Gene and Lando-T. Basically, Pheromosa and Genesect restricted teambuilding in a way that you needed to carry specific answers for them to not outright lose to them with very little to no counterplay. That's why mons like Marowak were everywhere back then and why Pex Offense became a thing. On the other hand Lando-T does have counterplay and doesn't force you to carry Skarm on any team because its offensive sets are way easier to offensively check and play around than stuff like QD Mosa or LO Genesect (even Protean Gren I'd say but that's still in the tier lol). In a real game scenario you don't outright lose from matchup if you lack a specific Lando-T answer whereas you will struggle a ton against aforementioned mons

The bold is super, super vague. I would argue that Genesect is about as easy to offensively check as Lando-T. They have similar speed, bulk, etc. Genesect may have priority, but the most popular sets were choiced (which you could play around). Lando-T hardly carries a choice item

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Tangrowth is on nearly every single Bulky Offense Build. Yes, it may have to do with Mega-Meta, but is a very common check to Lando-T as well.

As far as "playing around" it, that goes for basically every single pokemon. You can theoretically play around anything (maybe Beast Boost, but that is just a ability)


BUT regardless, this won't change anything because Lando-T will forever remain in the metagame as far as I can tell. So I'm going to go back to lurking.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Thing is lando is handled by one way or another with most archetypes, stall may have the sea cucumber, sharm, mega sableye(lando can't be out vs full hp without being burned and sword dance loses to foul play), gets bodied by switching into Zap using hp ice, chestnaught is something I've debated using.

I run shed stall and the only set that breaks my team is sword dance Z rock, settle rocks earthquake.

But it gets handled by a lot of fast waters I feel or anything with speed like rain teams/TR

Greninja is a bigger problem currently even if lando is just aso unpredictable

 

[Scribble]

The difference between Lando-T and mons like Genesect or Pheromosa is that the measures you take into stopping Lando-T are measures you're gonna be putting on the team anyway.

Every team (bar like super HO) should have a Ground resist, as well as a Rock resist. Every team should have a way of killing Ground types. Common revenge killers like Keldeo, Ash Greninja, etc, aren't put on the team specifically to deal with Lando-T, but to deal with Ground types and other mons as a whole.

Toxapex Offense existed purely because of Pheromosa, as it was the one reliable check to it. Tangrowth Bulky Offense doesn't exist purely because of Lando-T, it exists because Tangrowth acts as a blanket check for metagame threats such as Zygarde, Tapu Koko, Ash Greninja, and non z-Fly variants of Lando-T.

It's also not hard to tell what set Lando-T is based on the other members of their team. If they have other Stealth Rock mons like Garchomp or Ferrothorn, you can put Double Dance on your radar. If they don't, it's probably Stealth Rock. Mons like Genesect and Pheromosa are incredibly hard to tell because of how many different sets they could run and how splashable all of them were.

Just because something has "no true counters" like Lando-T cause of its multitude of sets (See: Bronzong) doesn't mean it's broken, either. Look at Kyurem-B and Hoopa-U, it's incredibly hard to switch into either of them, but their other flaws keep them balanced.


Moving on from that, what are people's thoughts on Kyurem-B in the Pheromosa-less meta? In theory it lost one of its best checks, but it also gained a large one with Mega Medicham. It capitalizes on the common Tangrowth/Lando-T/Zapdos/Celesteela teams you see everywhere, with its coverage able to nail all of them. It has a decent Speed tier, and has excellent bulk, but with a pitiful typing. It can run several different sets, my favorite being 4 Attacks with HP Fire. Curious to see what other people think of it, and if people think it got better, worse, or really nothing changed for it with the recent meta game changes.

 

[Subject 18]

HP Fire Mega Metagross is literally only good for Scizor, which is already very heavily pressured to Roost just to check this thing consistently to the point that it can be easily overwhelmed if it wants to fulfill its other roles such as Defogging (especially noteworthy considering Spikes is broken) and can be pressured in a pinch by Mash atk rises (not to mention you have literally five teammates for this one threat). Forretress is bad and immensely irrelevant (not to mention v. easy to pressure and setup bait for virtually everything), Kartana and Ferrothorn already get nailed by Hammer Arm (Ferro actively takes less from HP Fire, Kartana is OHKOed by Hammer Arm w/ Rocks anyway whilst dying >50% of the time w/o hazards), and being forced to run Naive/Hasty blows 'cause it eats into Metagross' extremely solid bulk and, as such, its ability to come in on attacks to check things. This is a bad lure because it sacrifices too much for the sake of hitting one Pokemon.

Okay, I can't just let this one slide. HP Fire Mega Metagross is way too useful to be considered a bad lure. Yes, it is meant mostly for Scizor, but it just does so much outside of that. Being able kill off Kartana with losing speed makes it much harder for teams to handle. Ferrothorn while it doesn't get 2HKO'd being able to hit it HP Fire means you aren't reducing your speed and most importantly you don't take Iron Barbs. Not taking Iron Barbs, keeps you from wearing yourself down for Scarf Keldeo to be able to kill you with Hydro Pump or Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt for example, which is so valuable. You only don't seem to understand or account that so many teams that use Mega Scizor to check Metagross, are under tremendous pressure if the even Mega Scizor goes down. Even if you revealed HP Fire, your opponent now knows that he can't send out Scizor to check it meaning he has to find ways to pivot around letting everything on their team take damage.

Just based on your post, I can tell that you haven't used it and you're just theorymonning against it. Instead, try using it and looking at it in the grander scheme of things because seeing uninformed posts like this just spreads incorrect information...

 

[Sun King]

I was just wondering: OU tiering council, what are your reasons for NOT banning Landorus-Therian? It is completely unbalanced, with no major checks, other than Skarmory, is very versatile between its offensive and defensive stats, usage was over half for a time, and everyone who doesn't use one hates it. What are the reasons???

Because checking Landorus-Therian is so fucking easy. Half the metagame OHKOs or 2HKOs with STAB or coverage.

 

[tenkai]

...landorus-t has no checks, besides skarmory, apparently.

And here I thought the cancer levels couldn't get any higher than people claiming gren is broken by citing max attack adamant low kick. It's never felt so bad to be wrong.

 

[Leo]

...landorus-t has no checks, besides skarmory, apparently.

And here I thought the cancer levels couldn't get any higher than people claiming gren is broken by citing max attack adamant low kick. It's never felt so bad to be wrong.

Maybe you should check out the definition of a check lol anything that outspeeds it and kos it is a check by definition. A check, unlike a counter, isn't supposed to take hits or switch into said threat but rather it has to beat it 1v1. While it has very few true counters, there are plenty of checks for it
Lol my b it's too late for me I can't notice sarcasm x.x

 

[bludz]

Pretty sure he was kidding

Anyway while Landorus-T is definitely really crazy good there's no reason for the council to be taking a look at it before stuff like Metagross and Greninja lol. Even Medicham. Lando's not like crazy restricting on team building or even in battle, it's just... super good.

 

[tenkai]

Maybe you should check out the definition of a check lol anything that outspeeds it and kos it is a check by definition. A check, unlike a counter, isn't supposed to take hits or switch into said threat but rather it has to beat it 1v1. While it has very few true counters, there are plenty of checks for it

T'was a joke, fren. Obviously our pal lando has a wide assortment of checks, hence me mocking whoever said earlier its only check was skarm and starting this cancerous ban lando fest. My apologies if I didn't make my sarcasm clear enough.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I have the slightly unpopular opinion that Landorus-T should at least get a suspect this gen, but in the event that shouldn't be discussed I'll leave it for another time.

On another note, I'd like to bring up something that I haven't heard talked about in detail much since the start of the gen (and appreciates the Mosa ban a ton), that being Hoopa-U.

A mon shafted and banned within a month of it's release back in ORAS... and yet is down in B tier this gen (if i'm not mistaken). Now, don't get me wrong - it's not like I don't understand why this thing has dropped from the radar. The mega buff allows a lot more things then usual to check it; The Tapus running around don't help it's fairy weakness any; 80 speed is meh; actual soft counters have surfaced in the form of Muk-A and Magearna; and Duggy has this thing cursing it's Indian lungs off at the mere thought of it (not to mention VoltTurn is bloody everywhere). I understand that Hoopa-U isn't brilliant in a hyper offensive meta such as this because of it... but I find it an interesting case study comparing ORASs' "free kill" mentality to SM, where the format of the power creep isn't even too dissimilar (if that made sense).

For comparison, it's strengths back in ORAS was it's ability to invalidate Stall (as they lacked good trappers) and gave Balance teams a fair few headaches - all thanks to it's 160/170 offenses. With this, it leaves me scratching my head how it can't still do some of the same things it used to, utilizing Z-moves (Z-Snatch, anyone?) alongside the coverage it has. It does also make me curious how Balance was so hard pressed to run VoltTurn... but that's besides the point.

I did catch wind of a Sash set that was used to combat Baton Pass teams, but I've never thought much of that (Baton Pass is BS anyway).

Anywho, thoughts?

 

[Sun King]

I have the slightly unpopular opinion that Landorus-T should at least get a suspect this gen, but in the event that shouldn't be discussed I'll leave it for another time.

On another note, I'd like to bring up something that I haven't heard talked about in detail much since the start of the gen (and appreciates the Mosa ban a ton), that being Hoopa-U.
View attachment 80771
A mon shafted and banned within a month of it's release back in ORAS... and yet is down in B tier this gen (if i'm not mistaken). Now, don't get me wrong - it's not like I don't understand why this thing has dropped from the radar. The mega buff allows a lot more things then usual to check it; The Tapus running around don't help it's fairy weakness any; 80 speed is meh; actual soft counters have surfaced in the form of Muk-A and Magearna; and Duggy has this thing cursing it's Indian lungs off at the mere thought of it (not to mention VoltTurn is bloody everywhere). I understand that Hoopa-U isn't brilliant in a hyper offensive meta such as this because of it... but I find it an interesting case study comparing ORASs' "free kill" mentality to SM, where the format of the power creep isn't even too dissimilar (if that made sense).

For comparison, it's strengths back in ORAS was it's ability to invalidate Stall (as they lacked good trappers) and gave Balance teams a fair few headaches - all thanks to it's 160/170 offenses. With this, it leaves me scratching my head how it can't still do some of the same things it used to, utilizing Z-moves (Z-Snatch, anyone?) alongside the coverage it has. It does also make me curious how Balance was so hard pressed to run VoltTurn... but that's besides the point.

I did catch wind of a Sash set that was used to combat Baton Pass teams, but I've never thought much of that (Baton Pass is BS anyway).

Anywho, thoughts?

People think of Hoopa as a one mon answer to stall, which is frankly stupid and wrong because you should never hedge your counterplay to an entire play style on one mon. It can punch holes in stall for sure, but it needs support to do so. That said, I agree it appreciates the Phero ban because Bug STAB isn't omnipresent, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Hoopa is really that great post Phero ban. It's still super easy to check and wear down, and getting it in safely this gen is either via double switch (skill) or on the revenge. So basically I'd argue that it's really effective in the right hands, but it is not a mon to use if you don't have a lot of battling knowledge because the skill cap is really high.

I'd also challenge your calls for a Landot suspect. It's literally super easy to check. Just because it's really highly used doesn't mean it's unhealthy for the meta. Yes, it's a central force, but not an unhealthy one--it's not holding back a massive chunk of the meta like Aegislash.

(if you want to respond to the landot thing, just hmu in private discussion. Don't derail the thread).

 

[BeardyBennett]

People think of Hoopa as a one mon answer to stall, which is frankly stupid and wrong because you should never hedge your counterplay to an entire play style on one mon. It can punch holes in stall for sure, but it needs support to do so. That said, I agree it appreciates the Phero ban because Bug STAB isn't omnipresent, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Hoopa is really that great post Phero ban. It's still super easy to check and wear down, and getting it in safely this gen is either via double switch (skill) or on the revenge. So basically I'd argue that it's really effective in the right hands, but it is not a mon to use if you don't have a lot of battling knowledge because the skill cap is really high.

I'd also challenge your calls for a Landot suspect. It's literally super easy to check. Just because it's really highly used doesn't mean it's unhealthy for the meta. Yes, it's a central force, but not an unhealthy one--it's not holding back a massive chunk of the meta like Aegislash.

(if you want to respond to the landot thing, just hmu in private discussion. Don't derail the thread).

I may be off-base in saying this, and I apologize if this something we're trying to kill discussion off, but I just want to chip in my two cents on the Lando-T thing. I agree a lot with your statement that just because it's used a lot doesn't mean it's bad for the meta. Like you said it's also super easy to check.

A great comparison that comes to my mind is Tyranitar in ORAS. Obviously it wasn't used as much, but hear me out. They're both mons with a lot of different sets (DDance, AV, Smooth Rock, Band, Scarf, Lefties, Chople), both have great stats, both deal with or greatly damage a lot of mons, and both are easily checked and played around once their sets are identified because you typically already have answers for those sets on your teams anyway. If you don't have answers for those sets on your team, then something is wrong. Neither are mons you have to build specifically for because other mons can play the roles that their sets provide. If you're planning for Z-move or set-up Lando-T, chances you're also building for other hard-hitting or set-up physical mons. It's not like you're making a dedicated Lando-T answer like you would Phero or Gene, you would be making answers for very common roles that Lando-T is able to fill.

Hopefully that made some modicum of sense.

 

[PK Gaming]

Pretty sure he was kidding

Anyway while Landorus-T is definitely really crazy good there's no reason for the council to be taking a look at it before stuff like Metagross and Greninja lol. Even Medicham. Lando's not like crazy restricting on team building or even in battle, it's just... super good.

If anything, banning Landorus-T would likely have an negative effect on the metagame, given how it's the ultimate glue.

 

[Halcyon.]

The only reason we banned Aegislash but not Lando is because it checks itself lol if it didn't we'd all be clamoring for a ban. It's exactly as restricting as Aegislash was. It has no counters depending on the set, provides defensive and offensive utility, and its usage is over 50%. That's exactly why we banned Aegislash lol. It being the "ultimate glue" should have no bearing on whether we should ban it or not, o else Aegislash would have remained OU and the Pheromosa could have as well! What an amazing tier that would be...

 

[Ashaebi]

speaking of aegislash if played properly you virtually have 150s in both offenses and defenses which makes it insanely powerful for ou. Lando t in comparison has its checks and counters and OU needs a wall like lando to balance its meta.

 

[Halcyon.]

speaking of aegislash if played properly you virtually have 150s in both offenses and defenses which makes it insanely powerful for ou. Lando t in comparison has its checks and counters and OU needs a wall like lando to balance its meta.

Landorus-t essentially has +1 defense due to Intimidate and also has 145 base attack with stronger STAB options than Aegislash did. It also has an immunity to Ground and Electric, doesn't get hit by Spikes, and is neutral to SR. It also has a much better speed tier than Aegislash did, meaning it can afford to run Scarf. It can also boost its best offensive stat with SD or its decent speed with RP or both.

Listen, I'm not seriously advocating for Aegislash to come down, I'm just saying that if you think we should have banned Aegislash for being a powerful, restrictive presence in OU, then you have no right to say that Landorus shouldn't at least be suspected lol.

Regardless, this is not the place to talk about this so sorry for keeping the conversation going mod team.

 

[Gary]

Yeah this isn't a place to discuss potential suspects or Aegislash so plz stop ty.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I guess another thing to bring up is whether some of the recently released Megas will be dropping from or staying in OU, alongside their ability here.

As much as I may be a giant weeb, even I can't deny that Mega Audino is inevitably going to drop (should just drop to NU tbh). It's movepool and supporting role may be decent, and in the lower tiers the thing pretty much doesn't die - but dropping Regenerator for a default doubles ability isn't what I would call OU-worthy. I have heard the analogy that it's the Clef' that takes up a mega slot, and while I don't quite agree with that notion (as Clef's Defenses aren't nearly as high), I do agree it's not really worth the mega stone this high up the tiers. Not much to it really, and as much as I would like to make things like Mega Audino work... I throw my hands up like Gary 's profile pic and say 'nope'.

Oh Mega Beedrill, how they underestimate you so... Now, I get it - with things like Ash Greninja and Mega Metagross still in the tier, the meta is at the moment not very kind to our favorite robo-wasp. However, I think people easily undermine the value of Adaptability U-turn, as well as 150 Attack and 145 Speed, allowing it to pivot (with hazards off the field, of course) like it's his day job. It's more then capable of Knocking Off helmet mons like Lando-T on the switch, and can wear down similar things like it extremely well. I know there was a lot of discussion about it on release, so I won't go into too much detail. For now, I think this thing is more than staying.

That's enough for now, actually. I was going to bring up Pidgeot-M and Steelix-M... but I don't really have much good experience with them from either side of the coin. More then likely dropping, they will - but I can't say.

(why did I sound like Yoda there? Nevermind...)

 

[Sun King]

I guess another thing to bring up is whether some of the recently released Megas will be dropping from or staying in OU, alongside their ability here.

View attachment 80823
As much as I may be a giant weeb, even I can't deny that Mega Audino is inevitably going to drop (should just drop to NU tbh). It's movepool and supporting role may be decent, and in the lower tiers the thing pretty much doesn't die - but dropping Regenerator for a default doubles ability isn't what I would call OU-worthy. I have heard the analogy that it's the Clef' that takes up a mega slot, and while I don't quite agree with that notion (as Clef's Defenses aren't nearly as high), I do agree it's not really worth the mega stone this high up the tiers. Not much to it really, and as much as I would like to make things like Mega Audino work... I throw my hands up like Gary 's profile pic and say 'nope'.

View attachment 80824
Oh Mega Beedrill, how they underestimate you so... Now, I get it - with things like Ash Greninja and Mega Metagross still in the tier, the meta is at the moment not very kind to our favorite robo-wasp. However, I think people easily undermine the value of Adaptability U-turn, as well as 150 Attack and 145 Speed, allowing it to pivot (with hazards off the field, of course) like it's his day job. It's more then capable of Knocking Off helmet mons like Lando-T on the switch, and can wear down similar things like it extremely well. I know there was a lot of discussion about it on release, so I won't go into too much detail. For now, I think this thing is more than staying.

That's enough for now, actually. I was going to bring up Pidgeot-M and Steelix-M... but I don't really have much good experience with them from either side of the coin. More then likely dropping, they will - but I can't say.

(why did I sound like Yoda there? Nevermind...)

I mean, Beedrill does kinda suck now. Part of what made it decent before was actually Pheromosa because you could pressure Landot to stay off the field and spin away hazards that Beedrill hates. Landot really fucks Beedrill up because the Rocky Helmet set puts a limit on the number of times you can click U-Turn on Beedrill, and it's free rocks for the Landot user. Beedrill is good late game, but you MUST be able to keep Landot off the field or else you end up racking up too much residual damage and that makes Beedrill that much more susceptible to any priority in the tier. Beedrill NEEDS good Volt-Turn partners to be effective, and it just lost its absolute best partner--one that probably even let it be effective in the first place.

EDIT: to put things in better perspective, the omnipresence of Landot (and subsequently free rocks against Beedrill) forces you to play your team to protect Beedrill, which gives your opponent a huge advantage. Rocks really fuck Beedrill up because Beedrill's ideally supposed to freely come in and give you momentum via strong U-Turns, and rocks cut those opportunities down to 4. They force you to get your hazard removal in, which gives the opponent a huge offensive advantage.

 

[Marigold]

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Toxic Spikes

I'm not sure if we've discussed this yet, but I think we're approaching beedrill in an unviable way for this meta. It baits a lando switch-in so easily, this is true. But... isn't this just an opportunity for toxic spike stacking? Volt-turn hazard stacking is incredible in this meta, whittling down enemy teams for a wincon as hazard control is just trash at the moment. Beedrill can not only stack tspikes, but pivot out with a strong u-turn and punish the opposing team when its lando-t switches out and gives me a potential free poison. Beedrill doesn't really strike me as a wincon itself, but I think we are heavily underestimating how well it can pave the way for another to come through.