Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

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There is this replay from Eternal Spirit's recent WCOP game which shows off the set well. It was hyped up very early on in the meta and kinda fell off from usage due to being generally easy to scout for, but it's certainly still a solid set to run in the meta nonetheless.

My problem is, what do you need Iron Head for at all? Z-Freeze Shock hits just about everything else you would need Iron Head for, and I would never give up having Ice Beam, as even without investment/a boosting item, Ice Beam along with Fusion Bolt is still great neutral coverage.

Subject 18 Edit: This is a WCOP replay not SPL
Sorry I was being a bit unclear, I was asking specifically for the Iron Head set. I've seen SS Kyu-B but never that particular set, and wanted to see it's efficacy.
 
Excadrill @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin / Swords Dance

Volcarona @ Charti Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Quiver Dance

I'm finding this to be a really underrated offensive core. Exca can deal with most Volc counters, such as Heatran, Nihilego, and Toxapex, while Volc does the same to Exca, breaking Rotom-W, Landorus-T, and Skarmory. There is a little defensive synergy as well, since Exca is immune to Toxic and Volc is immune to burns, and Exca can easily take Rock attacks aimed at Volc. Exca does leave a bit to be desired as a hazard remover, and you need the sand to be up, so it does require quite a bit of team support. However, once you get it moving, this core can be hard to stop.
 
I just want to give a prediction that Marshadow will be sent to Ubers in no time flat.

Marshadow @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat / Force Palm / Rolling Kick
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch

It will serve as a counter to set-up sweepers of the physical kind. Swords Dance? Spectral Thief. Bulu? Poison Jab. Lando-T? Ice Punch. It has coverage for all of its weaknesses and even takes out Magearna with CC. Scarf also outpaces Shift Gearna even at +2.

252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I just want to give a prediction that Marshadow will be sent to Ubers in no time flat.

Marshadow @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat / Force Palm / Rolling Kick
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch

It will serve as a counter to set-up sweepers of the physical kind. Swords Dance? Spectral Thief. Bulu? Poison Jab. Lando-T? Ice Punch. It has coverage for all of its weaknesses and even takes out Magearna with CC. Scarf also outpaces Shift Gearna even at +2.

252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just a heads-up in that Ice Punch is a terrible move on Marshadow.

Hidden Power Ice deals more damage on its intended targets. Without investment. Just use a Hasty nature as Defense is its weakest stat.

Also, no Shadow Sneak is a waste on Marshadow (though I guess there 'can' be sets that can forgo the move).

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power Ice
- Shadow Sneak

Only superbulky things like Toxapex are not 2HKOed by anything here.

You could run something like Poison Jab or Thunder Punch but IMO HP Ice and Shadow Sneak are non-negotiable.
 
Just a heads-up in that Ice Punch is a terrible move on Marshadow.

Hidden Power Ice deals more damage on its intended targets. Without investment. Just use a Hasty nature as Defense is its weakest stat.
Oh right, I forgot about that. I assumed it was better since it was physical lol. Still, Marshadow is not lasting long in OU.
 

Indigo Plateau

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Just a heads-up in that Ice Punch is a terrible move on Marshadow.

Hidden Power Ice deals more damage on its intended targets. Without investment. Just use a Hasty nature as Defense is its weakest stat.

Also, no Shadow Sneak is a waste on Marshadow (though I guess there 'can' be sets that can forgo the move).

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power Ice
- Shadow Sneak

Only superbulky things like Toxapex are not 2HKOed by anything here.

You could run something like Poison Jab or Thunder Punch but IMO HP Ice and Shadow Sneak are non-negotiable.
...what? Ice Punch is by no means a terrible move. It deals significantly more damage to both Zygarde and Garchomp and basically everything else it's hitting super-effectively lol. If by intended targets you mean Lando-T, then yes, HP Ice deals more than Ice Punch at -1. It is by no means a terrible move..

EDIT: Please disregard everything I said as I completely forgot about HP Ice being boosted by technician :toast:
 
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I just want to give a prediction that Marshadow will be sent to Ubers in no time flat.

Marshadow @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat / Force Palm / Rolling Kick
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch

It will serve as a counter to set-up sweepers of the physical kind. Swords Dance? Spectral Thief. Bulu? Poison Jab. Lando-T? Ice Punch. It has coverage for all of its weaknesses and even takes out Magearna with CC. Scarf also outpaces Shift Gearna even at +2.

252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you want to use Marshadow to revenge kill Magearna, it's better to use Spectral Thief, as at +1(which you will steal from the Shift Gear) it deals more damage and also it will remove the boost from Magearna, making it easier to revenge kill even if it is healthy and can't be brought down by Marshadow.
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 190-225 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

earl

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...what? Ice Punch is by no means a terrible move. It deals significantly more damage to both Zygarde and Garchomp and basically everything else it's hitting super-effectively lol. If by intended targets you mean Lando-T, then yes, HP Ice deals more than Ice Punch at -1. It is by no means a terrible move..
The only reason you're running Ice Punch is to hit the 4x weak (lando, Zyggy, Garchomp) which are all more physically bulky and take more from a technician HP ice than an ice punch.
4 SpA Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 280-332 (73.2 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 172-204 (45 - 53.4%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 248-296 (69.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 272-324 (75.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Given, Ice Punch hits zygarde marginally harder, but all that matters is the guaranteed 2HKO.
 
...what? Ice Punch is by no means a terrible move. It deals significantly more damage to both Zygarde and Garchomp and basically everything else it's hitting super-effectively lol. If by intended targets you mean Lando-T, then yes, HP Ice deals more than Ice Punch at -1. It is by no means a terrible move..
Well, perhaps I was overreacting a little, but from what I've seen, Coil Zygarde is pretty much the only 4x weak-to-Ice Pokemon that takes much less damage from HP Ice than from Ice Punch (BTW, it's still 2HKOed by HP Ice, and with Marshadow's immunity to Extreme Speed, it ain't going nowhere). The others are in a ~9% range of reduced damage, which is still almost always an OHKO with Life Orb.

For example...

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 354-421 (98.8 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 322-385 (89.9 - 107.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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If you want to use Marshadow to revenge kill Magearna, it's better to use Spectral Thief, as at +1(which you will steal from the Shift Gear) it deals more damage and also it will remove the boost from Magearna, making it easier to revenge kill even if it is healthy and can't be brought down by Marshadow.
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 190-225 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh lol forgot Shift Gear raised Attack. Still, Marshadow isn't lasting two weeks in OU.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
So with perfect coverage with Spectral Theif and Close Combat, Marshadow has two slots to basically do whatever.

The set previously suggested (Spectral/CC/HP Ice/Jab) has a few 'checks': Toxapex, Buzzwole, Venusaur-Mega, Suicune, Gyarados, Skarmory, Alomomola and Zapdos. Right now, physical Tapu Koko looks like an amazing partner, with Wild Charge and Brave Bird to beat all of them. Or you could run Thunder Punch for coverage.

I also think Sub+Bulk Up sounds decent with Spectral and CC. You can set up on Pex, Skarm and Alo in exchange for no Ice coverage. Wisp could be a decent option to increase set up opportunities against physical attackers.

You could also try something like a special set with Sub/CM/ShadowBall/Blast. Probably outclassed, but you do have the options of setting up on something like Mantine.
 
Alright, so another crazy fact about Marshadow is that if it snags a Shift Gear from Spectral Thief (or a DD on Scarf), it outspeeds the entire metagame. Seriously.

766 / Marshadow / 125 / +Spe / 252 / +2

Meanwhile, +2 Scolipede hits 710.
 
Gentle reminder that Marshadow is faster than practically all set-up sweepers.

With it on your team, you can lure Pokemon like Garchomp or Landorus-T to Swords Dance, only for Marshadow to switch in while they do so. With its very high Speed, it OHKOes with Spectral Thief thanks to the stolen boosts.

Remember Imposter Ditto? Well, it has a cousin who is a little shy, but you don't want to fight it.

Alright, so another crazy fact about Marshadow is that if it snags a Shift Gear from Spectral Thief (or a DD on Scarf), it outspeeds the entire metagame. Seriously.

766 / Marshadow / 125 / +Spe / 252 / +2

Meanwhile, +2 Scolipede hits 710.
Magearna will want to start running Fleur Cannon on the Shift Gear set if it doesn't want to give Marshadow a free switch-in.

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 144-169 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 331-390 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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A fun but probably not too viable Marshadow idea is Z-Work Up, which acts as a Swords Dance while also raising your Special Attack 1 stage for if you run HP Ice. Then just run Shadow Sneak/Spectral Thief, Close Combat and HP Ice and kill stuff.
This set has trouble with other Marshadows, though. You could also run Z-Bulk Up which raises Defense instead of Special Attack and also gives you the option to use All-Out-Pummeling with CC.
 
I feel Magearna's gonna have to start running Fleur Cannon on Shift Gear sets as a safety precaution for Marshadow. Otherwise, it won't kill with +0 BoltBeam and have its stat boosts taken away.
 

Stellar

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I've been trying out this set and it has been working pretty well. It sets up against a lot of the common stall PKMN/status.

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Spectral Thief
- Substitute
- Bulk Up

I'd like to have Leftovers, but the raw power of SSSSS is too good to pass up. You could run CC over Drain Punch to be more immediately threatening, but you lose a bit of longevity.
 
I've been trying out this set and it has been working pretty well. It sets up against a lot of the common stall PKMN/status.

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Spectral Thief
- Substitute
- Bulk Up

I'd like to have Leftovers, but the raw power of SSSSS is too good to pass up. You could run CC over Drain Punch to be more immediately threatening, but you lose a bit of longevity.
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Unaware Clefable: 369-435 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

It has some potential.

EDIT:

252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(The combo just barely reaches 100.9% minimum)

Well, it still cannot switch in. It falls to a Protect prediction game or slim chances of survival.
 
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Hey, quick question about Marshadow: doesn't he get swagger and spectral thief? Doesn't this mean this combination would inherently make him "uncompetitive" since any would-be check would not only give him an attack boost, but also be forced to roulette a chance to attack? Just curious about this set.

Also, I would much prefer Greninja be looked at before Marshadow, since that things been such a pain to fight. Not really related to the question, I just really hate Greninja. Period.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Hey, quick question about Marshadow: doesn't he get swagger and spectral thief? Doesn't this mean this combination would inherently make him "uncompetitive" since any would-be check would not only give him an attack boost, but also be forced to roulette a chance to attack? Just curious about this set.
The issue would likely be with Swagger, not Marshadow, with this set. It'd be similar to SwagPlay and Swagger would get banned.
 
Marshadow @ Spooky Plate / Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Swagger

first i'd like to thank to ou council for suddenly releasing this piece of shit. legit has no counterplay cuz u can swagger its passive defensive measures like toxapex, physdef tangrowth, and max def scizor and fuck shit up with +2 spooky plate-boosted spectral thief. like who even need spooky plate? all i do is use marshadium z and soul 7-steal stripping attack lets u ohko pokemon such as shift gear magearna and tpau bulu which is not fair. other sets i been seeing:

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Hidden Power [Ice]

probably the most common set on the ladder. hp ice destroys landorus-t which means marshadow can come in and kill everything else with spikes support. every team can, if not is, using spikes, outside of webs. this mon capitalizes on it so much to an extent that u need damn physdef toxapex on every bulky offense u run or u lose. fyi scarf lele has become a top scarf user. this mon is so damn meta defining.
Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Rock Tomb
- Filler

i don't know much about this set outside the fact that i thought i was flexin with my +1 gyarados until it revenge killed me and swept the rest of my team. god damn it.

technician rock tomb all the way.

scarf prolly aint worth it since u might as well abuse gay ass swagger set and life orb 4 attacks with spikes
VERTECH (Marshadow) @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Laser Focus

its a basic z-move set except with laser focus since it covers toxapex and landorus-t in 1 slot. complete gimmick but hey it works and its a free kill.

252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 259-306 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 370-436 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Ice Punch

this set doesnt take LO recoil and u get a strong af close combat capable of 2hkoing fucking physically defensive tangrowth. this set is hot fire. u cannot be more serious.
other options: u can boost ur attack with work up or bulk up but using swagger is generally better since its more reliable against passive mons like pex and u get more immediate attack cuz +2 > +1 and u confuse ur opponent so toxapex might not even get the chance to haze or scald u LOL. u can run pursuit to trap mons too which opens shits like keldeo and zardy. will-o-wisp is something i saw to wear down mons like landot and outplay bish sucker punch. very nice tech and wisp is one of the best moves in the game.

now we look at defensive counterplay. does it exist? most checks lose to fucking swagger (including pex) but u atleast can pressure gay life orb sets atm with these.

- loses to z-move and swagger sets, but they take on the msot popular life orb 4 attacks set.
- if u scout z-move right, physdef sableye is good. but it only fits on stall which is unfortunate. u know what? ima start using sableye offense.

use these mons or bring ur own marshadow team and win. thats how its done boys. if u want to stunt, use trash marshadow checks like roost toxic buzzwole and tapu fini. they lose to swagger btw lol.

i dont even give this mon a week.

edit: i forgot skarmory. use this mon too.

EDIT 2
: after testing, i believe that marshadow's capabilities on paper aren't as good in practice, but it punishes the meta so much if ur using offense cuz any marshadow team gonna have spikes cuz it so easy to use and best move in the game. i won't say quickban, but i expect a suspect test to come soon.

that is all.
 
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Marshadow in a nutshell:
-Best offencive typing
-Amazing speed tier in 125 outspeeding most of the meta
-Spectral thief is kinda broken as it also goes threw sub
-Best mon that can implement swagger in its gameplay
-Technician makes shadow sneak so strong
-Has access to coverage moves such as ice punch and thunderpunch
-It revenge kills and sweeps with choice scarf
-Z-set has no real counters
 
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