Policy Review Mega Evolution

[Bull of Heaven]

Approved by Birkal

Welcome to another of the awkward moments where CAP decides how to adjust to the times. Mega evolution is an important and entirely new mechanic, and not something that the current CAP process is prepared to handle. There are two main questions to be dealt with in this thread:

1) Will we allow CAP creations to mega evolve?
2) If so, how will mega evolution be implemented in the process?

Naturally, we'll be starting with the first of these questions, as our answer will determine whether the second needs to be addressed at all. To get the discussion started, I'll give some initial thoughts on our options and try to bring up points in favour of each.

Why disallow megas?
Mega evolution has the potential to be very disruptive to the process, while adding little value in return. Every CAP Pokemon is carefully designed to fill a specific niche, and if the base form has already been engineered to do that, it's difficult to imagine the mega form being good for the process. Since the stronger mega form is likely to overshadow the base form, it is likely that either the concept will not be properly addressed in actual battles, or the mega form will be designed to fulfill the concept and the base form will have no good reason to exist. Mega evolution might make it too easy for a Pokemon to fill roles or beat threats that are not helpful to its concept, and since CAP creations are already designed to be strong in the OU metagame, a mega CAP would likely be difficult to balance. Further, how would we decide whether a particular Pokemon gets a mega form? Would the TL choose? As it is unlikely that the addition of a second form will help us to fulfill most concepts any better than a well-designed single-form Pokemon would, it is difficult to identify any criteria by which a responsible TL would choose to give a mega form to one of our Pokemon. At the same time, an open vote on the matter would be a fanboy magnet, opening the floodgates for non-competitive input on what would absolutely be a competitive decision. On a related note, and especially considering the reputation CAP already has for making overpowered Pokemon, tempting ourselves with mega evolution could result in some creations that are bad for optics, even if we manage to limit the fanboy influence that's involved. Finally, there's some tension between mega CAPs and in-game precedence, as no current-gen Pokemon has a mega, and creating a mega would require us to create a new item.

Why allow megas?
Despite the numerous problems with allowing mega evolution, there are still strong arguments to be made in its favour. First, banning mega evolution is not without potential optics problems of its own. Mega evolution is perhaps the most exciting new mechanic in the Gen VI games, and certainly one of the most hyped. If we choose to ban mega evolution from our process, we are making a clear and rigid statement that we will ignore one of the biggest changes to competitive Pokemon in years, and not even begin to explore it. CAP is two generations old now, and we should be wary of projecting an overly conservative image, or appearing to be stuck in the past. More importantly, the problems that I identified earlier describe ways that mega evolution could interfere with our attempts to explore other parts of the metagame, but ignore that fact that mega evolution is itself an important component of the game, and something that CAP might want to study. Is it reasonable to say that this project's goal is to learn about the metagame if we refuse to tackle such an important part of it? I'm always uncomfortable with the PRC restricting CAP's options more than is necessary, and eliminating a major mechanic from the process without ever trying to include it might be going too far. As for the lesser issues of precedence, nowhere is it written in stone that a current-gen Pokemon must not have a mega, and creating an item shouldn't be an issue when the item is effectively an extension of the Pokemon, and has no other function.

What else can we do?
This paragraph is going to more clearly introduce my own opinions, as the difficulty I've had answering the question of allowing mega evolution has led me to consider the possibility of a middle ground. Given a straight choice between allowing and disallowing megas, I would likely choose to disallow them, but I'm not convinced enough that it's the right answer to be comfortable making such a harsh decision. This problem led me to brainstorm alternatives to the two most obvious options, and the best that I've come up with on my own is that mega evolution only be allowed if the concept explicitly requires it. This would allow us to study the mechanic itself without the risk of it disrupting an unrelated concept. For example, some kind of "mega evo that fills a different niche" concept would be doable (depending on the quality of the submission), but we wouldn't have to worry about whether a "Sketch Artist" concept would feature the added challenge of balancing a mega. This would likely open the door to submissions like "pure utility Pokemon that has an awesome mega," but those are already inappropriate submissions by our current standards, and the TL would presumably not slate them. This option also eliminates the problem of how we decide whether to give a mega to each Pokemon, as that would be settled in the concept polls every time.

I've now tried to provide arguments for three distinct options (though my personal favourite at this point is the third), and now it's up to the rest of you to engage those arguments and/or bring up ones I've missed. Hopefully we can reach a conclusion that satisfies as many of us as possible. Once more, for clarity, our options are the following:

1) Disallow mega evolution
2) Allow mega evolution
3) Find some kind of middle ground (e.g. "only if the concept requires it")

 

[Nyktos]

Your middle ground suggestion is more or less exactly what I intended to propose. I truly believe that Mega Evolution is an area that the CAP project can productively explore in, but it's clearly something that needs to be treated specially. I wouldn't expect us to do more than one Mega Evolution this generation, if that. But I do think that there is a good concept that can come out of Mega Evolution.

It's worth remembering that in-battle forme changes are something that has been proposed again and again and again for CAP, and rejected every time because there wasn't a sensible way to implement it (and, as far as I can tell, for no strong reason other than that). In previous generations, the only way to do an in-battle forme chance was to invent a move or ability, period. Now that we have two dozen Pokémon that transform in the same manner, we actually have the opportunity to consider exploring the topic further, or at least rejecting it based on the merits of the idea as opposed to an unfortunate incompatibility with our policy.

There are two major ways in which creating a Mega Evolution would break precedent. It would, strictly speaking, involve inventing an item, which breaks CAP precedent. Hopefully the fact that there are twenty-five canon items that are identical except for which specific Pokémon they work with makes it a little less heinous to create another one for the set. Notably there is no "freedom" in determining how the item would work; simply saying that it's "CAPXinite" competely determines its effects and even roughly what its icon would look like should we choose to make one. So I feel that it's not unreasonable to draw a distinction between that and inventing a new item out of whole cloth.

The second precedent that would be broken is the in-game one that there are no Mega Evolutions of Pokémon introduced in gen 6. I don't think this is likely to be a big concern for the CAP project, but I figured I'd mention it. I don't feel like it's a much greater break with canon than, say, a gen 5 Pokémon with two abilities but no Hidden Abilitiy, or a Flying/Fighting-type.

If we do allow Mega Evolution, we'll have to determine a process for how to handle them. The Mega form would need its own ability, stats, art, sprites, and potentially typing. All of these could sensibly be either decided at the same time as the regular forme or as an extra stage. (My inclination would be that the competitive ones should get their own stages immediately following those for the regular forme, whereas art and sprites should simply combine the two as a single submission.)

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Mega Evolution is by far the most interesting game mechanic introduced in Gen 6, and it would be irresponsible of us to disallow Mega Evolution before we even begin the generation's first CAP.

It is currently CAP policy to disallow CAPs with multiple formes as well as custom items. However, this policy was implemented long before Mega Evolution was released and it's safe to say that we did not foresee something as game-changing as Mega Evolution when disallowing (or at least heavily discouraging) forme changes, in-battle or otherwise. Since Mega Evolution is commonplace in OU and dozens of Pokemon have their own custom items, neither forme changes nor custom items represents an optics disaster as they did in previous generations. As Nyktos said, there is a formula for Mega Evolution: add an item called CAPite, boost the BST by 90 or 100, and possibly change a typing or an Ability.

If we were to make a CAP with a Mega Evolution, the focus of the process would shift from the main CAP to the Mega CAP as soon as we decide that the CAP will have a Mega Evolution. However, that is not necessarily a drawback. The main CAP might not have a real "reason to exist", but we would still produce a Pokemon with just as much of a reason to exist as a regular CAP. The optics criticism, that a Mega CAP could potentially be overpowered and damage CAP's reputation, is legitimate; however, we should not shy away from Gen VI's most interesting new mechanic because we can't trust ourselves with it. If we disallow Mega Evolution because we can't trust ourselves to make a balanced Pokemon (especially when Game Freak has shown us examples of broken, balanced, and underwhelming Mega Evolutions), we have much more serious problems than allowing Mega Evolution.

I think the idea of Mega Evolution being tied to the concept is too restrictive. The decision to add a Mega Evolution should definitely not happen before Concept Assessment in my opinion. Unless Mega Evolution is explicitly stated in the concept, then we should at least use the knowledge gleaned from a Concept Assessment before deciding on a Mega Evolution. Furthermore, we do not allow specific typings or abilities to be mentioned in a Concept. Unless a move is the defining feature of a Concept, we do not allow specific moves to be mentioned in a Concept. Based on this precedent, I figure that it would not be acceptable to make Mega Evolution an acceptable Concept. This obviously needs to be further discussed, but my position is that Mega Evolution should be handled as a step in the process much like Typing, Abilities, or Stats.

As Nyktos implied, Mega Evolution should be an exception, not the norm for CAP. Most OU Pokemon do not/will not have Mega Evolution. If Mega Evolution were to be allowed in some form, it is paramount to make sure the Mega Evolution is a serious competitive endeavor with minimal fanboy influence. I believe that it should take both the permission of the TL and a majority vote from the community to implement a Mega Evolution. To facilitate this, I recommend an optional "Mega Evolution Discussion" to be added to the process. Much like Counters Discussion, this hypothetical step would only be allowed if the TL believes it is necessary. The TL would conclude the thread by either Allowing or Disallowing a Mega Evolution. If the TL allows a Mega Evolution, a Mega Evolution Poll would open and the community would elect to have a Mega Evolution or not to have a Mega Evolution. A 50%+1 majority would be necessary to allow a Mega Evolution. If the TL disallows a Mega Evolution, the process continues as normal. If this idea takes off, I would recommend this step to occur either before or after Primary Ability.

 

[Birkal]

I think it's important that we don't add frivolous steps to the CAP process. It is convoluted enough as is, so I'm not a big fan of any option that adds a stage where we're forced to discuss the pros and cons of creating a Pokemon with a Mega Evolution in mind. That being said, I'm not entirely thrilled with eliminating Mega Evolutions altogether. It is a new mechanic this generation, and if a concept calls for it, we should explore that mechanic. Off the top of my head, I can think of a CAP involving choosing which Pokemon should mega evolve, or bluffing a mega evolution, and the like. I'm sure there will be concepts out there that would benefit from having a Mega Evolution.

But with that being said, note that those sorts of concepts are few and far between. For the most part, a CAP should not need a Mega Evolution to fulfill its concept. I can't think of any recent concepts that have won that would benefit from having a mega. It's not something we need to cling to every single CAP.

Therefore, I propose that we have Mega Evolutions set to default "no" for the time being. That way, we don't have to waste a week discussing it all as a community. If the Topic Leader feels the need to have a Mega Evolution for a CAP, then they make a thread for it and discuss it with everyone. A vote can take place there if needed. But overall, we should be able to trust the TL's judgment on whether or not we need a Mega Evolution.

Once the community chooses to add a Mega Evolution, that opens a whole new can of worms in terms of process... Which is something we can (and should) discuss in this thread. But first, I think it's important for us to be on the same page of whether or not we're having Mega Evolutions. If it's not obvious, my vote to that question would be yes.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

But with that being said, note that those sorts of concepts are few and far between. For the most part, a CAP should not need a Mega Evolution to fulfill its concept. I can't think of any recent concepts that have won that would benefit from having a mega. It's not something we need to cling to every single CAP.

I was under the impression that this was not what Bull of Heaven meant when he said "mega evolution only if the concept specifically requires it". I can't quite remember which CAP it was from (it was a while back), but someone submitted a concept that necessitated a forme change - I believe it was called "Double Team" or something to that effect - where the two formes would have fundamentally different roles. While this concept was certainly interesting, it was fairly impossible to accomplish under the process rules of the day and precipitated the ban of alternative-forme concepts altogether.

Now, can this be applied to Mega Evolutions? Certainly, it's the same principle. Mega Evolutions are an interesting mechanic that allows for new concepts alike the one just mentioned to be performed, by fundamentally changing how the Pokemon works mid-game, possibly in response to an opposing team. To an extent, we've already seen this with existing Mega Evolutions (or at least, the ones that are not just a straight-up power boost). Bulky sweeper Garchomp becomes bulky tank. Special sweeper Mewtwo becomes physical sweeper. Tactical nuke Heracross becomes slightly bigger tactical nuke with weights attached. In that sense, this isn't like Multitype where every so often we had a CAP where the TL found it necessary to at least discuss the possibility for the sake of the concept; it's where the fact that the Pokemon can mega evolve is the concept.

In this circumstance, a Mega Evolution is an attractive proposition. I don't personally feel that Mega Evolutions should be allowed at all if they are not a specified part of the concept since, as everybody else has pointed out, it rather runs roughshod over the entire process, and I don't think I have to say any more on that front. Should Mega Evolutions be allowed as part of the concept? To be honest, I rather equate them with forme changes and other mechanical changes that we have ignored over the last few generations because of their potentially confusing nature, so I'm not particularly keen to see us start allowing them. That's not a reason to disallow them entirely, though. What is? Well, there's the potential for a Mega Evolution concept to do inordinately well in polls at the expense of other legitimate concepts; in a perfect world, we would do one Mega Evolution CAP this generation and then leave it alone, but given that we are a community project it does not seem fair to impose such a blanket rule on the process.

So, then, what's my position? Bull of Heaven's compromise is really the ideal solution, if indeed we do want to have Mega Evolutions in some capacity. Mega Evolutions break the rules of CAP in that they necessitate both changing the game mechanics and introducing a new item, for the benefit of being able to investigate a style of concept that was banned outright several years ago. The idea to create an optional Mega Evolution addition stage is nice in theory but poor in practice; I really don't think we want to be encouraging the addition of Mega Evolutions. More to the point, I'd argue that it is actively damaging to introduce Mega Evolutions where an ordinary Pokemon could work just as well, as this is setting a precedent which is undesirable.

In short, then: If we ever make a CAP involving Mega Evolution it should be for sake of investigating Mega Evolution as a concept and for no other reason.

 

[paintseagull]

I'm in support of the "only if the concept requires it" position on this. I definitely think it shouldn't be banned, but it's also not a good thing to have to consider every CAP.

That said, I think we will get a lot of Mega Evolution concepts for the first CAP of Gen 6, and such concepts can expect to have a lot of support. It looks like we're tending to lean towards not banning MEvos, so if we go that way we ought to be prepared to have a formal way to implement them in the process right away. We could do something like.. ban them for the first Gen 6 CAP but if the community wants this and we can figure out how it can work in a positive, educational way then let's just go for it.

I don't think having a MEvo would overwhelm our process, but one negative consequence I can see is a huge increase in the time for completion, since we'd need 2 artworks, an extra ability stage, an extra (or more complex) stats stage... so we need to decide if that's something we can accept.

In the past when such things were suggested (like forme changes), they were things that weren't really seen competitively, so it was easy to ban it as something excessively complicated with little merit. Now, though, it's the norm, and we would be doing a disservice to our project's mandate if we disallowed it.

In summary, it's probably going to be a huge pain but we gotta suck it up.

 

[Bughouse]

For me the problem with any sort of Mega Evolution CAP is that any time you have a form that gains 100 BST, it's either going to just be flat out better than its base form in many notable ways or be so debilitated by the lack of an item/changed ability/retyping that it's an inferior form than before the switch. There are indeed several already existing Pokemon that do walk the line, such as Venusaur or Tyranitar, but this is not the norm.

I don't anticipate the CAP community successfully being able to walk this line in a fair and balanced way. Anyone who thinks the base CAP was built too weak will want a stronger Mega Evo. And anyone who thinks the base CAP was strong enough already will want a weaker Mega Evo. These discussions are bad enough when it comes to just giving a secondary ability, and adding the possibility of re-questioning Ability, Stats, and Typing (thankfully not Movepool) seems an awful idea to me. I have zero faith in our ability to execute even a standard Forme-change project, much less one where so much is radically changed.

Not to mention that adding a Mega Evo necessitates the creation of a new item. Game Freak did not make one item named Mega Stone. They made Gengarite and Mawilite. And I don't think we should be in the business of making CAP3ite.

I am in favor of outright banning Mega Evolutions from the CAP process.

What I will propose, however, is a Mega Evo workshop alongside the Prevo project in which post-CAP we can have a vote on Mega Evos and run additional side flavor projects and even retcon Mega Evos for old CAPs, if that's what people want.

 

[paintseagull]

I don't anticipate the CAP community successfully being able to walk this line in a fair and balanced way. Anyone who thinks the base CAP was built too weak will want a stronger Mega Evo. And anyone who thinks the base CAP was strong enough already will want a weaker Mega Evo. These discussions are bad enough when it comes to just giving a secondary ability, and adding the possibility of re-questioning Ability, Stats, and Typing (thankfully not Movepool) seems an awful idea to me. I have zero faith in our ability to execute even a standard Forme-change project, much less one where so much is radically changed.

This is really unhelpful. Like, I get that sometimes we have a hard time agreeing on what's OP and what's not, the past couple times we've actually managed to come out with something balanced in the end despite disagreements. Sure, sometime we are wrong, but the point is to learn something. If we think that MEvos are too nuanced for our community/process, we should discuss what extra checks we need to help us through this. Giving up without even trying is so against what the CAP community is all about.

 

[Nyktos]

I disagree with the suggestions that "Should we have a Mega Evolution?" become its own stage or part of concept assessment rather than being attached to the concept itself. While I can respect the idea that maybe a concept that doesn't inherently require a Mega Evolution might work well with one, I feel that it's not really all that likely. Furthermore, even if it's made clear that Mega Evolution CAPs will be very rare, the idea that it's theoretically a possibility for any concept is going to lead to people trying to make cases for it in every single concept assessment, no matter how inappropriate it may be for the concept we've chosen. I expect that if we do Mega Evolution, regardless of how exactly we determine that we're doing one, it's going to be because we chose a concept that is all about Mega Evolution. Explicitly restricting it to such concepts just saves us work.

On the topic of paintseagull's concerns about the amount of time it would take, I have some ideas as to how that could be mitigated but I feel they're more appropriate for once discussion moves onto the topic of how the process will work. That in mind, there's a fairly large amount of variance in how long CAPs take already, and I think that with appropriate precautions take a Mega Evolution CAP can be made to fall into the normal range (albeit probably toward the high end).

 

[jas61292]

Let me start off by saying that I disagree with srk1214's implications that we would be unable to toe the line that is necessary to actually make a Mega Evolution worth it. While I question whether or not we could myself, I have more than enough faith in the CAP community to believe that we could certainly do this if necessary. Even so, I honestly feel that this is irrelevant to the decision we need to make here, and I personally feel very strongly that we would be doing the best thing for the CAP project overall by simply banning Mega Evolutions outright.

The problems with Mega Evolution CAPs are numerous, while the benefits are, in my mind, nonexistent. First off, there is very, very few ways that a project requiring a mega evolution could ever be conceived within the rules of the CAP project. "Do X with a Mega Evo" would be a straight up illegal concept as far as I am concerned, and the vast majority of probable concepts fall into this mold. Even if simplified down to just "Mega Evo" itself, a concept would still be flat out an awful concept, if not STILL illegal. In fact, as bugmaniabob pointed out, I think the only possible way that you could even do a concept like this and even have it BE a legal concept is if the concept itself is about studying the mechanic itself and its effect on the metagame. Even ignoring all the other problems I have with mega evolutions, is it really worth letting a million and a half illegal concepts and fanboy suggestions to be thrown around every single project just so that one individual concept can be submitted and resubmitted every single time until it is selected, keeping in mind that the bad parts will never go away, even after said project where it is selected? I certainly don't think so.

Before I go any further on this, I would like to take a step back. As you can tell from the above paragraph, I think that mega evolutions can only fit in the CAP project in one specific concept, and that it is not worth it to allow it for that one concept. As such, I just want to take a second to address why I think it would be an absolutely terrible idea to allow Mega Evolutions OUTSIDE of a concept. As has been pointed out by others, allowing mega evos outside of concepts would cause massive problems with the established process. And, while we can adapt the process, no matter what we do, by adding it on, post concept, a mega evolution will cause certain other portions of the process to have their importance completely ignored. To make a comparison to our other open PR thread, mega evolutions would cause the exact same problems that led to us creating a BAN list for abilities. The things that it does are a huge detriment to the process and something that we should avoid at all costs. This is not even getting into the fact that mega evolutions are a fanboy magnet, and any "vote" on whether or not to have one would just be a facade for the TL's decision that we should have one. Besides, on a non-Mega Evo concept, how can one possibly argue that we need a Mega Evo? That we need versatility? More competitive abilities? Better stats? Bullshit. That is what any such argument would be. Bullshit. We have gone through 17 CAP projects, mostly successfully, and when it comes to this kind of stuff, has it ever been needed to complete a project? No. Hell, as far as versatility and abilities go, we STRAIGHT UP BANNED having three competitive abilities because it was BAD FOR THE PROJECT. Do you really think that suddenly, now, this gen, we will need an extra form when we never did in the past? Do you think we will need to break our established ability rules to be successful? No. We never will. If we have a mega evolution it will never do anything that we couldn't have done with a non-mega Pokemon. The only, ONLY, time where a mega evolution would be even remotely acceptable within the CAP project would be in the aforementioned concept exploring mega evolution itself.

So, with that said, let me go a little more into why I think it is a bad idea to even leave this one avenue for mega evolution open. I have already addressed why I think allowing such concept submissions is bad, but I think the problems go even deeper into what will happen if such a concept is selected. One very important thing is that there are no rules when it comes to mega evolutions. So, we give it +100 BST. But wait, what about Alakazam who only has +90? We can change an ability. But wait, not all mega's do change ability. And what about our CAP rules against more than 2 competitive abilities? Does this mean one on each? Or does it circumvent the rules? Type stays the same. Or changes a type. Or adds a type. Or loses one. Oh, and when making that +100 (+90?) stat change, some stats can drop, so really, we are not all that restricted at all. Honestly, the more you look at it, the more you realize the only actual rule we know of is that you must have a mega stone. Now, sure, we could make up some rules, but then, are we really exploring mega evolutions the way that the only legal concept about them wants us to? Frankly we would be just as well off making two completely unrelated Pokemon as we would be making a Mega Pokemon, with the only real difference being that when making two Pokemon we wouldn't have to deal with awful fanboy opinion and project optics concerns and we could actually focus on learning something.

Speaking of which, what exactly would we be looking to learn by making a mega Pokemon. As I have already said, doing one in any capacity except to study the mechanic itself is simply against everything we have established here. But, even when looking to study the phenomenon of Mega Evolution, is there really anything we can get out of it? We can look at OU and easily see that there are some cases where Mega Pokemon far outstrip their normal selves. There are cases where Mega's pale in comparison, as well. And still, there are cases where both Mega and standard Pokemon can compete on equal footing in the OU metagame. So, with all that easy to tell with a bit of OU experience, what exactly would we be looking to learn by studying mega evolution? This is the epitome of a "give a Pokemon X and make it work in OU" concept." I have always thought, and made it known, that concepts such as these are some of the worst kind of concepts we can have. We get them every time, and some even win from time to time, and we make the best of them, but they all have one major fundamental flaw: a lack of learning goals. Can we learn things along the way? Sure. But we can also learn things by making Pokemon without a concept and just yelling at each other until someone gets the most votes. The key is, what we are learning is not what we set out to learn. What makes this situation even worse than other "give it X" concepts is that, its all be done. Sure, other things had Belly Drum, but none made it work. Smeargle had Sketch, but it didn't have the ability to do much with it (also for what its worth, while I have always been outspoken about disliking the Sketch Artist concept, it is kinda an exception to the rule here, as the concept is not so much about "give it sketch and make it not broken" as it is a study of Pokemon movepools and coverage). But unlike those, mega evolutions of all kinds exist AND work, and the only things that you could possibly want to study about Mega Evolutions are not things we have to create a Pokemon for.

If you'll remember back to Malaconda's concept submissions, I made a HUGE deal about questions to be answered for this very reason (see bottom of this post). Questions for a good concept should be things we have to answer ourselves through discussion, debate and testing, not things we find out automatically as a natural result of the project, regardless of how shitty the discussion is. For this reason, I never even considered slating any concepts that were of the "make a Pokemon with X" variety, since I do not believe that concepts like that facilitate the kind of learning we want. You give the Pokemon X and you make it work, and maybe you learn a lot along the way. But what you learn, and what discussion you have does not have anything to do with the concept itself. Only when you have set things that you are out to learn can discussions really be focused, and a great (not simply good) process be had.

This is what I see when I look at mega evolutions: a mechanic so all encompassing that it would be nearly impossible (and very irresponsible of us) to do in any way other than with a dedicated concept, yet so well covered already that to delve into them would be to show a lack of regard for our project's roots in learning. The downsides are gargantuan, and the upsides are next to nothing, if they exist at all.

While it may seem to be a shame to cut off this awesome and new mechanic before even giving it a shot, when it comes to the purpose and goals of this project, mega evolution has absolutely no place, and we would be much better off cutting it out before it has a chance to establish itself in people's minds as a part of what we do.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

What I will propose, however, is a Mega Evo workshop alongside the Prevo project in which post-CAP we can have a vote on Mega Evos and run additional side flavor projects and even retcon Mega Evos for old CAPs, if that's what people want.

Very quickly: I really don't like this idea, even if we do decide we aren't going to be doing a competitive Mega Evolution concept. The flavour projects are all very well, but they're a drain on time and don't seem to garner much attention from what I've seen. More to the point, having existing CAPs be retconned is something of a recipe for disaster in and of itself before we've begun discussing revisions, but I'm not certain that there will be much support for this idea, so I'll leave it there for now.

Speaking of which, what exactly would we be looking to learn by making a mega Pokemon. As I have already said, doing one in any capacity except to study the mechanic itself is simply against everything we have established here. But, even when looking to study the phenomenon of Mega Evolution, is there really anything we can get out of it? We can look at OU and easily see that there are some cases where Mega Pokemon far outstrip their normal selves. There are cases where Mega's pale in comparison, as well. And still, there are cases where both Mega and standard Pokemon can compete on equal footing in the OU metagame. So, with all that easy to tell with a bit of OU experience, what exactly would we be looking to learn by studying mega evolution? This is the epitome of a "give a Pokemon X and make it work in OU" concept." I have always thought, and made it known, that concepts such as these are some of the worst kind of concepts we can have. We get them every time, and some even win from time to time, and we make the best of them, but they all have one major fundamental flaw: a lack of learning goals. Can we learn things along the way? Sure. But we can also learn things by making Pokemon without a concept and just yelling at each other until someone gets the most votes. The key is, what we are learning is not what we set out to learn. What makes this situation even worse than other "give it X" concepts is that, its all be done. Sure, other things had Belly Drum, but none made it work. Smeargle had Sketch, but it didn't have the ability to do much with it (also for what its worth, while I have always been outspoken about disliking the Sketch Artist concept, it is kinda an exception to the rule here, as the concept is not so much about "give it sketch and make it not broken" as it is a study of Pokemon movepools and coverage). But unlike those, mega evolutions of all kinds exist AND work, and the only things that you could possibly want to study about Mega Evolutions are not things we have to create a Pokemon for.

Bearing in mind that I am ambivalent as to whether or not we actually do decide to allow Mega Evolution as a concept, I feel that this assessment of how much we can learn from a potential Mega Evo CAP is somewhat lacking; or, rather, seems to be missing what could potentially be done. The (pretty much only) interesting part of Mega Evolution as distinguished from any other kind of forme change is that it involves a decision-based activation system which may or may not be selected given the correct situation. See Mega Pinsir and potentially catching Rotom-W with a Mould Breaker Earthquake before Mega Evolving; or, no, this example is somewhat misleading. What we have here is two potentially very different Pokemon and a decision that has to be made on which one is to be used; this is something that no previous CAP has touched on, and I confess I am very intrigued by the possibility of, say, a base Pokemon that performs better against offensive teams but loses to stall teams, versus a Mega Pokemon that performs the opposite way around - the possibilities for such a decision-based system are rather vast. What questions will we be answering? Well, there's how we make two Pokemon that fit different roles but with the same or similar typing and moveset, how we make both base and Mega as viable as one another given the lack of an item, and how it operates in practice - I feel these are questions which could not be answered simply by the theorymon of individuals. As such, I do think that a Mega Evolution CAP has the potential to teach us something, albeit - and this is a very big "albeit" - only if the concept, or the assessment of the concept, is far more focused than simply "make a Mega Evolution", and it is making something that does not exist in OU currently - two forms where one is not simply a power boost for the other, but where there is a definite decision to be made regarding "to Mega Evolve or not to Mega Evolve", et cetera.

Now, having said that, the cut and thrust of your post was more akin to "why should we bend over backwards to accomodate this one concept, among the thousands we could potentially be doing", and, well... I don't have a good answer for that. We didn't have a good answer back when forme-change CAPs were first suggested. Mega Evolutions, as nice as they are, are an extremely limited pool when compared to the diversity of concepts in toto. Certainly not enough to justify codifying a largely new process to make it work, at least to my mind. And yet, if anyone more on the side of the Megas does have a good answer for this question, besides "why not", then sure, Mega Evolution CAP would be worth all the hassle, I think.

 

[ginganinja]

Mega Evolutions are an interesting mechanic, since you can have a 'base form' CAP, and then explore options such as a typing / stat / ability change and look at the impact it would have on the CAP, or mons trying to check / counter it, or the CAP 'meta' as a whole. That said, I would really want to avoid us throwing in mega evos for the hell of it, it seems to me something that the TL or TL council would have to think is necessary in regards to concept and function, before it would actually be an option for a particular CAP. Basically, im agreeing with Birkal in that I believe that a Mega Evo could add something interesting to a particular CAP creation, but its not something I really want to be regularly seen in the CAP process without undo cause.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I do not think Mega Evolutions serve any useful purpose in the regular CAP process, and I think they would be a huge distraction to building pokemon to fit a competitive concept. Others that have posted against Megas have done a good job of saying what I would say in that regard, particularly jas61292. I won't repeat it all again. I do have a lot more to say on the topic, but regardless of what else follows, I want to be clear that I don't think we should have Mega Evolutions allowed at all for our new Gen 6 pokemon creations.

However...

I do completely agree with Bull of Heaven's OP statement that Mega Evolutions are a huge new mechanic in XY, and may turn out to be THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of the 6th Generation of pokemon games. Who knows? Only time will tell. But it does seem irresponsible if the CAP project summarily sweeps Mega Evolutions under the rug before 6th Gen Create-A-Pokemon even gets started.

I hate binary decisions, and when faced with them, I typically try to find a third option (or more). And that's what I am trying to do here. I think we have another avenue to consider.

Gamefreak only gave Mega Evolutions to pokemon from previous gens, so perhaps that is what CAP should do too. Consider the following:

• CAP has been wrangling with "Evolve-A-Pokemon" proposals since the early DP days. The notorious "EVO Project" is the most famous, but definitely not the only time we have considered or tried to evolve existing pokemon.
• CAP has done "revisions" to our previously created pokemon, to make them more powerful and more relevant in the competitive metagame. The results were generally considered to be not great, and we decided to roll all pokemon back to their originally created state. Since that time, there have been numerous requests to update past creations.
• There have been multiple suggestions to do a "Create-An-Uber" project at various times in CAP history. These were generally positioned as "fun projects", but also were meant to experiment with pokemon power levels above the OU norm.

Perhaps Mega Evolution is the vehicle to tie this all together in a way that Create-A-Pokemon can actually use as the basis for a community project?

We should make Mega Evolutions for past CAP creations. I don't know if we should Mega Evolve our weakest past mons or our strongest -- Gamefreak seems to have done BOTH. I don't know if we should seek to stay consistent with the past pokemons' general competitive concept, or if we should change their concept significantly -- Gamefreak seems to have done BOTH. I really don't know what the rules should be, but I think it would be fun to try put some definitions in place, and then try to Create-A-Mega Evolution.

I make this proposal with the caveat that only past CAP creations should be allowed to be Mega Evolved here in CAP. This eliminates the possibility that we create a Mega Evolution that conflicts with any future Megas to be made by Gamefreak. This also eliminates a lot of stupid discussion about which actual pokemon "really need a Mega Evolution" and the like. Let's stick to our knitting here.

We do not have to do a Mega Evolution project right off the bat. In fact, I highly suggest we don't. I see a Mega Evolution project as something separate from a regular CAP project, meaning we don't use the normal CAP process or competitive assumptions. I think we would need a new process that probably looks a lot like the Prevo process we use today. If we intend the Mega Evolutions to be competitive (in Ubers or in OU, TBD), then additional controls would need to be introduced, since Prevos are purely "flavor".

Mega Evolutions are a big deal in Gen 6, and should be a big deal in CAP. We do not need or want Megas in our regular CAP process, and if we do so, it will be a distraction AND inconsistent with the real game. But by making an official CAP Mega Evolution side project for our past creations, we can do something the community has been clamoring for for a long time AND do something that is perfectly aligned with the direction and example of the actual Pokemon game.

 

[Nyktos]

I very, very strongly dislike the idea of creating Mega Evolutions for past CAPs, especially if they're meant to be competitive in XY OU or Ubers. While I respect that Doug knows and understands the principles of CAP better than anyone, I am really struggling to see how we can possibly justify making post-facto modifications to a past project, which is exactly what adding a Mega Evolution is doing. Every CAP is created to exist in a specific metagame at a specific time. By creating a "competitive" Mega Evolution, all we'd be doing is shoehorning it into another metagame than the one it was built for by jacking up its stats. What point is there is that? If the learning goals of the past project are no longer relevant, then we certainly won't learn much by creating a Mega. If the learning goals are still relevant, the correct way to explore them in a new metagame is to create a new CAP with a similar concept. That way, we can learn from the mistakes that were made before, and we can customize the CAP to best explore its concept in the metagame it's being built for.

Alternatively, we could do the Megas "for fun". This isn't as bad, but still rubs me the wrong way. I don't see why we would put the required effort into something that's not even a real CAP project. Sure, we do it for prevos, but those are more of an extension to the existing project than anything. An extra, really long flavour step. Prevos in the real game are generally not competitively relevant, so we can justify not including them in the playtest or CAP meta. That most definitely does not apply to Mega Evolutions. Nobody is going to want to create a Mega and not be able to play with it. If we make them legal in the CAP metagame, we're right back to the original issue of modifying an already-completed project after the fact, and forever changing the way it plays in the CAP meta. (That's not even getting to the fact that it's completely bizarre to create a Mega without otherwise updating the CAP for gen 6, something that we've in the past resisted doing. Or the fact that if the Megas are legal in the CAP meta, people are undoubtedly going to point to that as a reason to make prevos legal as well, and they'll have a point when they do.) If we don't make them legal, nobody will be satisfied.

While I do appreciate the logic behind doing Mega Evolutions in a way that's both less process-disrupting and more true to the game, we should let sleeping projects lie. Making a Mega Evolution of a past CAP could be fun as an IRC flashcap or a fun little flavour thing in the Kitchen, but giving it the legitimacy of a real process doesn't have a good outcome that I can see.

That out of the way, jas's post has gone a long way toward eroding my support for doing Mega Evolution CAPs in the originally-suggested fashion as well. If a poll were to be held right now I would likely still vote in favour of allowing them, but I doubt I'll be arguing strongly in favour from this point forward.

 

[Deck Knight]

A few thoughts.

Bullet Points:
1. Mega Evolution inherently creates a dual dynamic in the CAP Process that greatly hinders focus if not properly managed.
2. Mega Evolution for past CAPs is impossible without updating past CAPs, something we have agreed numerous times not to do.
3. While Mega Evolution is incredibly metagame relevant, our choices would need to be oriented exclusively to the Mega Pokemon, and what or how its base form contributes to it (example: Intimidate -> Huge Power Mawile. Intimidate/Moxie -> Mold Breaker Gyardos)

Expanded Comments:

1. Mega Evolutions that are effective at present often have abilities that aid in the process of setting up Mega Evolution, and this interaction is something well within the realm of exploring on that basis. However, a problem presents itself in doing offensive and defensive calculations. On a flavor note, we would also need to decide if artists dual-submit, or if one artist submits a Mega and the other the base, and in which order. As such, Mega Evolutions should be considered very carefully, if at all.

2. The history of CAP revisions and reversions is a long one, and we've decided not to tread those grounds again. CAP is a competitive project, and old CAPs have the glaring problem of being Generation locked, such that Gen 4 CAPs do not have Gen 5 or Gen 6 TMs, new egg moves, Fairy-type coverage, etc. It is best to let sleeping dogs lie, and not go through the Pandora's Box that updating old CAPs would present. It's fun to do the CAPs, but we're not a project about doing fun things, we're a project about analyzing competitive Pokemon and we have fun in the process of doing that.

3. I feel that if we are going to do a Mega Evolution, everything we do should be oriented towards that, and our discussion of the base form should revolve solely around what it can offer in assisting the Mega Evolution. This allows us to create a singular focus, set upon specific maximum and minimum calculations, which our base will by its nature by less effective. This is the only plausible way I can see any such project taking shape, with the capabilities of the base form being a question of what our Mega Form sacrifices, or what our base can do to support the Mega.

 

[darkie]

As the TL for the aborted EVO1 project, this is the thread I've been waiting for.

My initial reaction based on the idea of Mega Evolutions and our history with EVO, I came into this thread to give a flat out no to Mega Evolution. While the idea is interesting, something like a Mega Evolution probably needs to be carefully and meticulously designed and a community with hundreds to thousands of individual voices and ideals is not entirely conducive to that. We saw that with EVO and we would probably see it again with a Mega Evolution process. Since CAP is founded on the ideals of being community led, this clash is decided in favor of the community. I do have faith that we could do it given enough tries, but it would not be ideal and we would probably see a few failed batches before we came up with a good, balanced Mega Evo.




Doug's idea of allowing past CAPs to be Mega Evolved is an interesting proposition, and would allow Mega Evolutions to be contained to a separate process, which is good. The limited number of CAPs is also a good thing for this. The big question with this is: if we do allow Mega Evolutions for past CAPs, are they just for fun? or would actually use them and battle with them? If we do battle with them, would we just Mega Evolve them as is; i.e. not update their movepools, abilities, etc.? Would the Mega Evolution be able to use new abilities introduced since BW and DPP?

While this addition would open a writhing can of worms, if we can adequately answer the questions brought upon by the addition, I am perfectly OK with doing a Mega Evo process separately for past CAPs.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I really would like to just say no to Mega Evolutions completely and move on. No matter how we structure it, I honestly do not see us learning anything particularly useful that we cannot more easily explore with a normal CAP, and I see it being a fanboy nightmare. Mega Evolutions just don't fit into the Create-A-Pokemon project.

But because Mega Evolutions appear to be such a significant new advancement in Pokemon, I really think we need to figure out a way to make it fit in CAP. Unless it would do significant damage to the community, I feel like we should stretch ourselves and figure out a way to make Megas fit here. We need to adapt. Keep in mind, we are not being forced. No one is pointing a gun at our head. We can do whatever we damn well please. But this is a case where I think we need to move outside our comfort zone and think creatively about how to make it work.

When I suggested we do Mega Evolutions on past CAP's, it is because that appears to me to be most consistent with the spirit of the game, AND the easiest way to adapt the CAP project structure to accommodate Megas. I do not know for sure whether Megas should be mostly a flavor exercise, or whether we should strive for some aspects of competitive relevance. I don't know how we would handle updating the target CAP mon for the 6th gen, or any other related issues with embarking on a Mega Evo project. The definitions and rules for creating Mega Evolutions for past CAPs would be a separate (and probably lengthy) discussion, I think -- but I'm sure we could come up with something generally workable and agreeable, if we put our minds to it.

I can see the merit of some suggestions that we pursue Mega Evolutions as a distinct concept unto itself in the regular CAP process. But I think the difficulty of having multiple stat spreads, potentially multiple typings, and multiple art designs and sprites -- that's a shitstorm waiting to happen. It's hard enough to wrangle all the CAP steps currently and stay focused. Adding all that additional complexity doesn't seem feasible to me. Even if you look at it from a pure timing standpoint -- do we really want to add another month or more to the existing CAP creation process? I don't. In my mind, doing Mega Evos in a regular CAP project is just not an option.

The only way I can see Megas having a place in CAP is as a side project. And for reasons stated earlier, I think the most reasonable targets for Mega Evolving are our own past creations. Yes, there are problems with it, and I can't tell you I have all the answers. We'll have to figure it out together.

If we decide to ignore Mega Evolutions in CAP, you won't see me raise a stink about it. But I have this nagging feeling this is something we should not ignore.

 

[nyttyn]

HOLD IT!

No seriously, hold the phone. There is one major, major facet to Mega Evolutions that has yet to been brought up in the thread -

Mega Evolution is a balancing factor as much as it is a power boost.

Yes, Mega Evolutions are incredibly powerful. But you can only have one on your team. It makes it incredibly obvious (almost all of the time) which pokemon on the team is the Mega Evolution, and at the same time, it forces you to make a decision. Yes, there are pokemon strong enough to be self-sufficient without mega evolution. Yes, not all mega evolutions are worth it. But by and far Mega Evolution tends to be a "ok this mon is the mega evo on the team" type of deal.

Now keep in mind as well the Mega Evolved pokemon cannot use an Item. They will have their Ability locked. We have absolute control of these two factors at all times when our selected pokemon is a Mega Evolution. We also have control of initial Base Stats and Ability in order to make it difficult OR easy to bring in (the first time). Finally, we also force teams, if they decide to choose a CAP with mega evolution, to always use the Mega Evolution slot for that mon (assuming the base form is sufficiently awful to require mega evolution), giving an enormous opportunity cost simply to use the CAP.

All of these factors combined means that Mega Evolution can very well be a balancing factor to a otherwise overtly powerful CAP. We can't very well easily just dismiss this factor without discussing it.



I would also like to note that people are instantly leaping to BAN IT, DO IT, HALF DO IT, MEGA EVOLVE OLD CAPS without even discussing things (like this) first., such as the ability swap upon mega-evolution has been shown (via Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Elektrike) to have potential interesting implications to how a pokemon plays which cannot be easily ignored. Guys before we even start talking about what we should do, we should at least discuss the topic matter first because right now everyone's just jumping straight to the finish without even running the race.

Finally, guys, please drop the concerns about "fanboys" and "public image" based solely on the power level of Mega Evolution alone. We made Aurumoth last gen, CAP is going to have the potential to make retarded pokemon regardless of if we have mega evolution or not.

 

[Qwilphish]

It seems unanimous that no one wants to have MEvos be a part of the normal CAP process, so I'm going to ignore that here.

At this point it also seems that there are three options:
1) Ban MEvos entirely
2) Allow MEvos for Old CAPs and make them competitive / official
3) Allow MEvos for Old CAPs, but make them uncompetitive / unofficial

Out of the three, I only completely disagree with the third one. Creating a MEvo, but simply make it unofficial is an absolute waste of time. MEvos are already difficult enough to try and balance (or I guess if we were to go this route, "mock-balance"), so I don't see the point in going through the trouble for something that won't matter to anyone. Assuming that these unofficial MEvos will be made on the forum (otherwise why would we be discussing this, as MEvos that are made over IRC have the same significance and notoriety as a Flash CAP), unofficial MEvos will just be distracting and confusing to new / "outsider" users who might believe these MEvos are official. No matter which way you slice it, this option is distracting and unnecessary to the CAP project.

Between the other two options, I don't have a strong opinion in favor of one over the other, so I'm just going to pose answers to some of the questions asked in this thread.

If we were to go the route of an official MEvo, then we should be allowed to use them alongside other CAPs as otherwise it would end up just like the third option just with a different title. Along with that, I agree with DarkSlay in that MEvos for Old CAPs should not alter the movepool, as there is no precedent for that in-game and also due to past precedent last gen. With that out of the way, MEvos WILL be a difficult process to balance with the process that we have now. I am not saying that I don't believe in the community (because I do), but it will require good discussion during every stage. Between the combination of a +100 BST boost, a possible new ability, and / or typing, MEvos have the potential to get out of hand.

The biggest question I have with MEvos is: What is the point of them?
Are we trying to recreate the concepts that the Old CAPs had in the new generation, or will they be an entirely new concept that is "based" upon the base form? In other words, what is the focus of the MEvos?

The answer to this question will determine my stand on MEvos in CAP. Should the answer be the former part, then I can support MEvos, but if we feel that the former part be a bad decision, then we should simply ban MEvos altogether. Creating a brand new concept for a MEvos spells disaster. For something like a MEvos, the more streamlined you can get, the better. A new concept would basically be a normal CAP process except that we already have a "base". While we can do this, in my opinion, MEvos should not be that complicated. The first part would allow for us to allow for us to satisfy the MEvo "want" as well as stay true to the CAP mission.

Of course, if the first "way" of going about MEvos is deemed not as a good option then MEvos will be banned. I know that it is wrong to have the default option be in favor for MEvos but based on the arguments presented so far, I believe it is the better default option.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

I think we've started to get ahead of ourselves here. Between allowing mega evolution in the main process and giving megas to past CAPs, we've set up two huge topics that are each distracting us from the other, and I think it's starting to harm the focus of the discussion. I'm interested in the possibility of mega evolving past CAPs, but I left it out of the OP because I believe that we should have a final answer [for this PR cycle at least] on what to do with the main process first. On that note, I think that jas61292 has asked the most important question in the thread so far:

Speaking of which, what exactly would we be looking to learn by making a mega Pokemon. As I have already said, doing one in any capacity except to study the mechanic itself is simply against everything we have established here. But, even when looking to study the phenomenon of Mega Evolution, is there really anything we can get out of it? We can look at OU and easily see that there are some cases where Mega Pokemon far outstrip their normal selves. There are cases where Mega's pale in comparison, as well. And still, there are cases where both Mega and standard Pokemon can compete on equal footing in the OU metagame. So, with all that easy to tell with a bit of OU experience, what exactly would we be looking to learn by studying mega evolution?

Birkal and nyttyn have made the most progress so far on identifying reasons that mega evolution is worth studying, most notably bringing up the restrictions that it places on teambuilding, but I don't think I've either seen or thought of a truly satisfactory answer yet. This is the question that everyone should be considering at this point, as it will be very difficult to justify allowing mega evolution in the main process unless we can develop a stronger answer than we have had so far. I'm still inclined to believe that there is such an answer out there, but I haven't managed to find it myself. If that answer turns out not to exist, thoroughly examining the question will guide us to that conclusion. Either way, this seems to me to be the best route to a final decision about mega evolution and the main process, after which we can give the issue of past CAPs the attention it deserves.

 

[nyttyn]

Honestly, after mulling over it for a bit, I have to a conclusion - we should allow mega evolution.

Reasons why -

1. It is a major game mechanic

Mega Evolution isn't like form change, which only happens for some pokemons. It isn't a individual ability or move we can simply ban. It is a entire, rather major game mechanic that is actually fairly central to both how XY plays, and how one teambuilds in XY. Playing around and supporting the mega evolution is, in and of itself, a vital part of being successful in XY, and we would be doing the full game a injustice by ignoring such a major mechanic.

2. It is a limiting factor

See this post for my thoughts on that matter.

3. It brings a new dimension of play

To mega evolve Kangaskhan now for the Parental Bond boost and BST increase, or to keep it as regular Kangaskhan for Scrappy to be able to smack Aegislash with PUP? To mega evolve Manectric now to get Intimidate's boost, or hold off so it can serve as a strong deterrent against the opponent using Electric-type attacks? To mega evolve Heracross now for the enormous damage boost, or to hold off to try and fish for a Moxie boost? These questions, among many other questions that are raised before hitting the Mega Evolution button, showcase that the mechanic very clearly can have enormous ramifications to how a pokemon plays, and such a new dimension of play cannot simply be ignored.


However, at the same time, I acknowledge that Mega Evolution can be a major distraction, and it can severely increase how long a process takes. So I also suggest that, while we allow mega evolution, we make allowing it to either be at the TL's discretion, or something that happen every X CAPs. Also, should it be allowed, mega evolution as a concept should be flat out banned IMO, since that would make it process jumping. Instead, users should consider how mega evolution ties in with their concept, and mention if they believe it would relevant or not (EX: A pivot that can change later in the game to an offensive sweeper).

 

[Birkal]

Just because there are many interested implications of Mega Evolutions in competitive Pokemon does not mean they are worth throwing a wrench in the CAP Process to study them. The best example I can think of is Multitype. Could we learn a lot from making a CAP centered around that ability? You bet. Is it worth disbanding the CAP Process that works really well and will arguably give us more insight in order to do Multitype? I'm not convinced.

As I've readily stated on IRC, I'm against creating Mega Evolutions for Generation 6 CAPs. I can't imagine how we'd even begin to create one, to be frank. Looking at the past concepts of Generation 5, I don't see a single one that is either strongly in favor or against having a mega evolution. There is no ground for either, making the call for a Mega Evolution entirely subjective, which is bad for a competitive process. And even if we somehow had a concept that should have a Mega Evolution, we now have to deal with twice as many discussions and polls, some of which would need to run concurrently with one informing the other. All of this combined with how long the CAP Process is already taking (we're averaging two a year), I can't see any feasible way of making a Pokemon with a Mega Evolution.


I am on the fence about creating Mega Evolutions from previous CAPs. I think it gives us a sensible outlet for doing something with Mega Evolutions without killing the process or making illegal concepts. I also believe that it's a much better side project than creating a pre-evolution. I could see us forming a mega-process in which we sort of "revamp" the concept of that past CAP into a Mega Evolution. We could even give it a playtest to see how well it held up to its concept. We'd have to develop a process for this, however, which would take a lot of time and consideration. That development doesn't (and shouldn't) need to take place in this thread, but consider the vast amount of effort it would take to make that sort of a process before you are swayed to make Mega Evolutions for previous CAPs.

 

[Deck Knight]

For now I don't see a feasible way of implementing Mega Evolution for 6th Generation CAPs. Mega Evolutions for past CAP Projects is intriguing, and I would not mind it as a side project as long as it remains within the confines of competitive goals, but that is another thread.

My suggestion is this:

1) We issue a moratorium on 6th Gen Mega Evolutions until we have completed a 6th Generation project.
2) After that Pokemon's Playtest, if we want to explore the concept further, we then pursue whether a Mega Evolution would be a way to achieve that goal based on our playtest results. This prevents the main CAP from being affected by a potential Mega Evolution, and also gives a competitive purpose to the Mega project.

 

[nyttyn]

Again, as I said on IRC, I would like a more solid definition of this "wench" that Mega Evolution throws in the process. So far, I have seen that it adds steps in the process just like any other, and nobody has yet to provide any real definition (as far as I can see) of why that's so incredibly awful. What makes Mega Evolution so different from the rest of the process that it wrecks it, much less wrecks it on the same level as Multitype (which is a bloody awful example by the way, it splits a pokemon into 17 different types, Mega Evolution doesn't have nearly as many implications).

 

[Deck Knight]

Again, as I said on IRC, I would like a more solid definition of this "wench" that Mega Evolution throws in the process. So far, I have seen that it adds steps in the process just like any other, and nobody has yet to provide any real definition (as far as I can see) of why that's so incredibly awful. What makes Mega Evolution so different from the rest of the process that it wrecks it, much less wrecks it on the same level as Multitype (which is a bloody awful example by the way, it splits a pokemon into 17 different types, Mega Evolution doesn't have nearly as many implications).

CAP X - Mega Evolution Type Discussion / Poll
CAP X - Mega Evolution Ability Discussion / Poll
CAP X - Mega Evolution Stats Discussion / Poll
CAP X - Mega Evolution Art / Sprite Discussion / Poll

And that's just the stuff to get it on the server. Never mind if we want to get into the weeds of whether the Mega should fulfill a different concept than the Base form. Not to mention this assumes we don't have a separate poll for a Mega Evolution being pursued itself, but lets assume it does, we're still looking at 10 polls here, OR trying to run concurrent Type / Ability / Stat / Art / Sprite threads.

It's really more like throwing a barrel full of enraged monkeys into the process than a wrench, per se.