Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon

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Nickos

Quack
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Would Rock Polish Diancie have any chance? Given it's backed up by something like Magne for the Steel-types
 
Speaking of which. Is Earth Power considered a necessity, or can a pokemon that knows Ground-type moves (Like Heatran or maybe Landorus/Hydreigon) cover for that (No tutors in S/M and I didn't have the chance to use them in ORAS)?
sorta. in ORAS hp fire diancie was sometimes run to hit scizor on the switch, which was fairly common at the time and also was a counter to hp fire-less diancie. now since protect isn't mandatory, you can freely run both, so there's no real reason to swap ep for that, especially since heatran is so good rn.
 
Considering the main target for Earth power is the incredibly common Magearna this gen... probably, as you die to her regardless. I recommend Earth Power AND Dugtrio support when using Diancie. If you missed the chance to get it, well, you better use the one you have for an UU/RU team in a support role, and find another Diancie for a mega set. You have time, the Diancite won't be released any time soon...
 
It does make some sense. Since Talonflame nerfed and the Tapu themselves scaring off Dark-types, Diancie does need another Niche.

With that said, the only other Mega with Magic Bounce is Sableye and Diancie herself can Learn Stealth Rock, so I want to ask, would this combination with offensive stats help this pokemon get a new niche?
SR is a very important niche indeed in the current meta, though Diancie herself does not feel to me like the best rock abuser tbh. It would be interesting if SR Diancie opens up whole new ways to build teams. Afterall she is still a rather busted poke.
 
SR is a very important niche indeed in the current meta, though Diancie herself does not feel to me like the best rock abuser tbh. It would be interesting if SR Diancie opens up whole new ways to build teams. Afterall she is still a rather busted poke.
What makes you so certain she's busted? I'd say she isn't as good as mons like, say, Greninja.

I'd like to hear your reasons for this.
 
What makes you so certain she's busted? I'd say she isn't as good as mons like, say, Greninja.

I'd like to hear your reasons for this.
Strong stats, broken ability, above-average offensive typing with reasonable coverage, and a usable defensive typing. Power creeps did erode on her advantage though.

Obviously pokes do not exist in a vacuum, but being a strong poke in a vacuum is always a big step into being great in the meta.
 
Strong stats, broken ability, above-average offensive typing with reasonable coverage, and a usable defensive typing. Power creeps did erode on her advantage though.

Obviously pokes do not exist in a vacuum, but being a strong poke in a vacuum is always a big step into being great in the meta.
If Pokemon battles were fought on paper then Mega Lopunny wouldn't be as bad as it is at the moment. I don't know about ladder effectiveness, but I can see Mega Diancie dropping as low as a flat A rank simply because the meta's best mons can all threaten it. Both S ranks have the potential to be a scary matchup, with AV Magearna in particular walling it forever. Celesteela and AV Tangrowth are also extremely common at the moment and can reliably switch into Mega Diancie, especially on a predicted resisted hit. Offensive counterplay to it is everywhere, with something as simple as a Tapu Koko Thunderbolt OHKOing Naive Mega Diancie after SR. Let's not even talk about the Greninja forms, who can even set up Spikes predicting Mega Diancie to flee, and Dugtrio, who does 94% min to Mega Diancie with the Diamond Storm boost if it runs Groundium Z. Beyond that, plenty of Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, VinCune, and virtually every Choice Scarf user can tank a hit / come in on the revenge and force Mega Diancie out. I believe Mega Diancie can certainly become the best Mega Evolution, but I definitely don't think it will end up broken; despite its great raw attributes, the metagame already has the tools to handle it in some capacity.
 
Strong stats, broken ability, above-average offensive typing with reasonable coverage, and a usable defensive typing. Power creeps did erode on her advantage though.

Obviously pokes do not exist in a vacuum, but being a strong poke in a vacuum is always a big step into being great in the meta.
I find these reason to be bogus.

Your entire argument revolves around Diancie being "busted" because of here "Strong stats, broken ability..." However, you fail to mention any metagame advantages or disadvantages Diancie has. It's important to mention these because, like you conveniently mentioned, "pokes do not exist in a vacuum." If you don't mention these, then all you're doing is restating facts that I already know. It's like me Kyurem-B is busted because of "Strong stats, broken ability, above-average offensive typing with reasonable coverage, and a usable defensive typing." Yes, EVERYONE here knows Kyurem-B has those assets. Say something everyone DOESN'T know. Maybe say that Kyurem-B is busted because his type allows him to fight the metagame filled with Tangrowth and Tapu Koko much more better than everyone else (in other words, handling the metagame better than usual). That will be much more meaningful.

I also have no clue where you got the "usable defensive typing" idea from. What makes you think Rock/Fairy is a "usable defensive typing?" Rock is a completely SHIT defensive typing. The only reason Tyranitar can even do work is that's he so fat that Earthquake can't OHKO. However, that is not the case here – Diancie isn't that ridiculously fat (and a good thing, too, or she'd be overpowered). A simple rule of Pokemon is: if you have Rock as one of your types, that automatically disqualifies any "good defensive typing" label.

If you bother to read posts made in the past, you can see that two people here (Scarf Nihilego and Spohky) all agree that the metagame is currently revolving against Diancie; mons who can stop her are all over the place. If anything, Diancie is anything but "busted" because SM OU introduced more mons than usual who can handle Diancie, no problem.
 
I find these reason to be bogus.

Your entire argument revolves around Diancie being "busted" because of here "Strong stats, broken ability..." However, you fail to mention any metagame advantages or disadvantages Diancie has. It's important to mention these because, like you conveniently mentioned, "pokes do not exist in a vacuum." If you don't mention these, then all you're doing is restating facts that I already know. It's like me Kyurem-B is busted because of "Strong stats, broken ability, above-average offensive typing with reasonable coverage, and a usable defensive typing." Yes, EVERYONE here knows Kyurem-B has those assets. Say something everyone DOESN'T know. Maybe say that Kyurem-B is busted because his type allows him to fight the metagame filled with Tangrowth and Tapu Koko much more better than everyone else (in other words, handling the metagame better than usual). That will be much more meaningful.

I also have no clue where you got the "usable defensive typing" idea from. What makes you think Rock/Fairy is a "usable defensive typing?" Rock is a completely SHIT defensive typing. The only reason Tyranitar can even do work is that's he so fat that Earthquake can't OHKO. However, that is not the case here – Diancie isn't that ridiculously fat (and a good thing, too, or she'd be overpowered). A simple rule of Pokemon is: if you have Rock as one of your types, that automatically disqualifies any "good defensive typing" label.

If you bother to read posts made in the past, you can see that two people here (Scarf Nihilego and Spohky) all agree that the metagame is currently revolving against Diancie; mons who can stop her are all over the place. If anything, Diancie is anything but "busted" because SM OU introduced more mons than usual who can handle Diancie, no problem.
I mean if you read carefully enough I was at no point claiming that Diancie would be amazing at the current meta, I was claiming Diancie is a mon we should always watch out for because she is a busted mon in a vacuum. ICYMI we are NOT at the viability thread, so I see no reason to not talk a bit more than just the current meta, and I see even less reason to get chased after by patch purist for doing so.

Also, check dictionary for the word "usable" before you start going offensive. Obviously being hit SE by water/ground are super annoying, but they are still easier to work around than things like a rock (thx god GF has been nerfing SR for a couple of generations straight) weakness. Plus, the rofl OP fairy definitely helps out quite a bit in this regard (even though it end up sucks to have to compete against the tapus).
 
I mean if you read carefully enough I was at no point claiming that Diancie would be amazing at the current meta, I was claiming Diancie is a mon we should always watch out for because she is a busted mon in a vacuum. ICYMI we are NOT at the viability thread, so I see no reason to not talk a bit more than just the current meta, and I see even less reason to get chased after by patch purist for doing so.

Also, check dictionary for the word "usable" before you start going offensive. Obviously being hit SE by water/ground are super annoying, but they are still easier to work around than things like a rock (thx god GF has been nerfing SR for a couple of generations straight) weakness. Plus, the rofl OP fairy definitely helps out quite a bit in this regard (even though it end up sucks to have to compete against the tapus).
Whoa, there. Ease up on the gas pedal, wasn't trying to be "offensive."

That being said, I find the reasoning to be mildly confusing. You were saying Diancie was "busted" but now you're saying she's not "amazing at the current meta." The contradictions there should be clear. "Patch purism" or not, there's a huge hole in logic there that needs to be fixed. And like I said, it's pointless discussing facts we already know (Diancie's stats/ability in this case), hence me turning to the meta (because that is something that is not immediately obvious). That being said, if you can give me a good reason to restate facts we already know over and over again, I'd be willing to listen.

And I feel the need to remind you that it was you who said Diancie had a "usable defensive typing." I'm not really sure why you're bringing up dictionaries and "usabie," your reasons for doing so aren't very clear.

And also, where on Earth did you get the idea that Stealth Rock was being nerfed? The only real nerf I can think of is the buffing of Defog, but that matters little seeing as hazard removal is in a shoddy state in S/M (namely, almost no good Defog/Rapid Spin users in S/M).

And you go ahead and say Diancie is a "rofl OP fairy" but never really give any reasons why. In fact, throughout all of your posts, you never really gave any reasons aside from citing "Strong stats, broken ability, above-average offensive typing with reasonable coverage, and a usable defensive typing." Again, you need to go into more depth than that (you're just restating facts we already know). Otherwise, it'd be like someone saying "Kyurem-B is overpowered because of strong stats, good ability, good offensive typing with excellent coverage, and a usable defensive typing." Especially considering that S/M introduced a plentitude of mons who can handle this "rofl OP fairy," I see even less reason why it's "rofl OP."

Overall, I find your post to be an...interesting one.

P.S.: I'm not really sure where you were going to with this statement:
Obviously being hit SE by water/ground are super annoying, but they are still easier to work around than things like a rock (thx god GF has been nerfing SR for a couple of generations straight) weakness."
I find the sentence structure to be slightly off-putting, and what I find even more baffling is why you brought up a rock weakness and nerfing Stealth Rock. Those were completely unrelated. Not too sure why you brought those up.
 
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If mega altaria is ever released, could it be any good? I could see a dragon dance/roost/return/earthquake set working but teams have more counterplay to fairy types now due to tapu omnipresence. Being a fairy weak to fairy does not help matters.
 
If mega altaria is ever released, could it be any good? I could see a dragon dance/roost/return/earthquake set working but teams have more counterplay to fairy types now due to tapu omnipresence. Being a fairy weak to fairy does not help matters.
I seriously doubt it'll be that threatening. Altaria's issue last gen was that it wasn't really that good at anything in particular. Offensive sets were slow and not very powerful outside of Pixilate STAB, while defensive sets were extremely prone to chip damage and getting worn down while inviting in Steel types for free. Not having as much burn spreading will be nice for it but its going to struggle in the exact same ways it did last gen, except that Celesteela and Magearna are gonna be a pain as well.

Also this whole "teams are prepared for fairy-types because Tapus are common" thing needs to stop. Fini is barely worth defensively prepping for, Bulu doesn't even get a Fairy move, and Koko's Dazzling Gleam is both relatively weak and uncommon. The only one that regularly runs Fairy STAB is Lele. The actual reason for mons with Fairy-type STABs being unfavorable is because Steel-types have an insane amount of resistances, including Fairy, and are nearly mandatory on every team.
 

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If mega altaria is ever released, could it be any good? I could see a dragon dance/roost/return/earthquake set working but teams have more counterplay to fairy types now due to tapu omnipresence. Being a fairy weak to fairy does not help matters.
No, it's just going to flat-out suck. The pixilate nerf hurt, yes, but what really does is the rise of the fantasy core (steel/dragon/fairy). Most steels wall this thing to hell and back - physical sets are laughed at by Celesteela, Ferro and Scizor-Mega. Special sets with Fire Blast get walled by Heatran and AV Magearna and Sp Def Celesteela check it anyways:
AV Magearna:
164+ SpA Altaria-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 128-152 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 446-528 (125.9 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Sp Def. Celesteela:
164+ SpA Altaria-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 158-186 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 240-284 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Did I forget about the Tapus? They all beat it. Lele and Koko ofc click moonblast and d-gleam (though koko does have HP Ice and it can U-Turn), respectively. Fini also clicks moonblast, and as for Bulu,
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 186-219 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
One can figure from this that Wood Hammer is a clean OHKO.

Literally nothing has changed for it to be better this generation. Not many Dragons roam the realm of OU for it to beat, and Darks and Fighting mons have also been left behind. Honestly 110 unboosted base attk and sp atk really sucks this generation. DD sets have a terrible defensive typing and +1 80 is mediocre and leaves it wide open for most Scarfers to revenge. Special attacking sets have to deal with being walled by Heatran and not really beating Magearna or Celesteela. Finally, defensive sets have a terrible defensive typing. So, tl;dr it has a terrible typing, it can't beat most steels, the Tapus destroy it and the power creep has left it in the dust. Altaria-Mega is just going to suck this generation.
aaaaand before I could even finish I got sniped. :(
EDIT FOR BELOW POST: There really aren't many steel or fairy megas but Zard Y notably beats both typings. Mega Maw is both fairy and steel and is a godly wallbreaker. I'll think of more later when it's not late at night.
Also, when I meant fantasy core, I meant as in not team cores but metagame cores, kind of like NU's fighting/psychic/dark core (where those types dominate the meta).
 
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You know the Power Creep in Pokemon has gone out of control when Dragon, the classical Infinity+1 type, combined with Fairy, the new and rising Infinity+1 type, is considered a terrible defensive typing...

Altaria's potential is amazing, what happens is that people only considers the option to megaevolve Altaria right away and forgets that her base Dragon-Flying with Natural Cure form has some crucial advantages. Altaria is better left unevolved while you use Dragon Dance, or any other move not named Hyper Voice, Facade, or Return, to make sure Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge, etc do not ruin your day. If an enemy Scizor or Excadrill awaits, again do not press megaevolution right away. Wait until he dies. Mega Altaria must be played like Mega Slowbro: pivoting on the base form, and reserving the megaevolution until you really need it.
 
You know the Power Creep in Pokemon has gone out of control when Dragon, the classical Infinity+1 type, combined with Fairy, the new and rising Infinity+1 type, is considered a terrible defensive typing...
That's not power creep. It's that the two types have rather mediocre synergy together.
 
I'm pretty sure it's an unanimous thought that Latiasite is going to be the only significant player out of these mega stones. I could see Altarianite and even Amphraosite having small niches here and there, but nothing to write home about. Having a mon like Latiasite is nice as it gives balance teams yet another sturdy Mega Charizard Y switchin (most notably, one that isn't trapped by Dugtrio!) and a solid set-up sweeper thanks to Calm Mind. I think this CM set will be the most dependable when the mega stones are enabled on SD:

Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover

You could adjust the EVs to be whatever you want, honestly. This one is meant to outpace non-Scarf Garchomp and invest the rest in to physical bulk. You could adjust this to simply outpace Zardy, Jolly Lando-T, Banded Zygarde, or just simply be max speed to tie with Latios and outpace Specs Keldeo depending on your team structure. BoltBeam coverage is a tried and true combination that hits the most things for SE damage in the meta, as can be seen in Double Dance Magearna. Its solid bulk and access to Recover/Roost give it plenty of set up opportunities when its checks have been dealt with. You could also roll with a Stored Power + Surf set or even a mono-attacking Stored Power + Refresh set if you wanted to, but those require much more set up and support, and aren't as consistent.

Latiasite will still have to deal with the many issues in the meta such as (Ash) Greninja, (Mega) Tyranitar, Toxic Heatran, Magearna, Tapu Lele, etc, which means I don't see this mega being a top tier pick, but it has potential imo
 
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I think Mega Altaria can find itself a niche as a check to some of the most prominent special attackers in the tier.

For example, it's a solid switch-in to Zard Y that don't mind Dugtrio (Cant be KOed by Z-EQ, OHKO with STAB, can Roost on Sash variant) and TTar (Crunch does pitiful damage, Roost on Stone Edge till miss or switch as TTar will be choice locked, KO with STAB)

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega in Sun: 130-153 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It's also a switch-in WITH RECOVERY to Ash-Gren. Ice Beam hurts but who clicks that anw

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega: 126-148 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It checks Volcarona rather well

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega: 257-303 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kingdra and offensive Peliper with more defensive investment too.

I don't think it will be top tier or anything but there's a niche for it.
 
I think Mega Altaria can find itself a niche as a check to some of the most prominent special attackers in the tier.

For example, it's a solid switch-in to Zard Y that don't mind Dugtrio (Cant be KOed by Z-EQ, OHKO with STAB, can Roost on Sash variant) and TTar (Crunch does pitiful damage, Roost on Stone Edge till miss or switch as TTar will be choice locked, KO with STAB)

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega in Sun: 130-153 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It's also a switch-in WITH RECOVERY to Ash-Gren. Ice Beam hurts but who clicks that anw

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega: 126-148 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It checks Volcarona rather well

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Altaria-Mega: 257-303 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kingdra and offensive Peliper with more defensive investment too.

I don't think it will be top tier or anything but there's a niche for it.
My only question with that spread is what exactly does Mega Altaria do back to Zardy and Volc? They resist each other's STAB attacks (unless Altaria uses Dragon type moves lol). I just see Volc using Mega Altaria as set up fodder, in particular.

Perhaps a defensive Toxic set or something, which I'm assuming is something along the lines of your set given the defensive investment. I don't see the past DD sets putting in any work in OU this gen. With Celesteela, Toxapex, physdef Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Mew, Clefable, Lando-T, Scarf Gunk Gren, and Scarf Tapu Lele all over the place, it just has way too many adversaries to keep in mind when running a DD set, not to mention Pixilate got nerfed this gen which only hurts its damage output.
 
My only question with that spread is what exactly does Mega Altaria do back to Zardy and Volc? They resist each other's STAB attacks (unless Altaria uses Dragon type moves lol). I just see Volc using Mega Altaria as set up fodder, in particular.

Perhaps a defensive Toxic set or something, which I'm assuming is something along the lines of your set given the defensive investment. I don't see the past DD sets putting in any work in OU this gen. With Celesteela, Toxapex, physdef Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Mew, Clefable, Lando-T, Scarf Gunk Gren, and Scarf Tapu Lele all over the place, it just has way too many adversaries to keep in mind when running a DD set, not to mention Pixilate got nerfed this gen which only hurts its damage output.
Toxic is certainly one solid way to damage Zard T and Volc.

Volcarona right now is 0 HP/ 0 Def so it is 3HKOed by Earthquake - solid option to couple with Fairy STAB.

Zard Y is trickier but you can keep Roosting until the sun fades/ fire blast misses to retaliate. Also, Zard Y has to Roost eventually so EQ hits it hard then. Toxic is still the most reliable way though.

Roost/ STAB/ EQ/ Toxic is probably the moveset for defensive Altaria. Like I said, Altaria can work but most likely to be B- max

EDIT: Offensive DD is most definitely trash like you said
 
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