[SM] CAP Viability Ranking Thread

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Kartana to B+

Kartana has improved a lot with recent meta shifts. Scarf is really good when played well and it is the set I'm basing this post on. It can rip apart balanced and offensive teams alike due to it's very high attack combined with Beast Boost. Very solid check to M-Diancie, very sold counter to M-Crucibelle, and very solid counter to DD Naviathan which are major selling points of its viability. It can tremendously pressure certain builds just by existing and it forces enough switches to justify a slot for defog on the set if you want defog. It not only beats A-Ninetails easily but you can squeeze in Brick Break to remove screens if you want to remove screens while still dishing out damage. This mon has several ways to capitalize on the switches it forces including wide enough coverage to hit the entire meta at least neutrally and also hitting large amounts of the meta super-effectively. Other sets like sd+3 attacks, 4 attacks lo, and probably even sub+sd are possibly viable too but I only have used the scarf set so idk...It also pairs extremely well on VoltTurn being able to obliterate the ground types that would try to stop you from getting chip by pivoting. Demolishes Fairy and Ground types which is reason enough alone for a rise but the recent meta trends virtually necessitate a rise for the ultra beast at this point.
i have used lo 4 attacks and sd 3 atk on ladder and both work very well against the mons u mentioned, although diancie outspeeding hurts it quite a bit actually. it does benefit by taking on some of the best mons in the tier, such as the ones u mentioned as well as mons like colossoil, but both landorus and tomohawk easily check it as long as it hasnt boosted too much in landos case. while it is very good, im not sure whether it deserves to rise cuz while it is very strong, it loses to a lot of higher tier mons without a scarf and lacks move flexibility with scarf, as well as the rise in usage of mons like revenankh and plasmanta on a few teams. i will note that it is good for rain, which is becoming somewhat common on ladder higher up.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
i have used lo 4 attacks and sd 3 atk on ladder and both work very well against the mons u mentioned, although diancie outspeeding hurts it quite a bit actually. it does benefit by taking on some of the best mons in the tier, such as the ones u mentioned as well as mons like colossoil, but both landorus and tomohawk easily check it as long as it hasnt boosted too much in landos case. while it is very good, im not sure whether it deserves to rise cuz while it is very strong, it loses to a lot of higher tier mons without a scarf and lacks move flexibility with scarf, as well as the rise in usage of mons like revenankh and plasmanta on a few teams. i will note that it is good for rain, which is becoming somewhat common on ladder higher up.
I agree it does have poor match ups but that is besides the point. I feel a rise is appropriate, despite needing a bit of support to function optimally. Any special attacker worth its weight is going to win 1vs1 agaisnt Kartana; it is best played in my experience slowly slashing away at opposing teams until it can break through. The Scarf set requires decent predictions to actually accomplish this breaking through opposing teams so it isn't the easiest thing to use, either. Stuff like Cyclohm and Defensive Tomohawk can easily ruin Kartana's day so some solid counterplay is needed when building with it.

Pair it with solid Volt Switch/U-Turn mons to open up some momentum and Kartana begins to have a MUCH easier time getting in front of what it wants. Take Cyclohm for example....with the recent addition of Volt Switch Cyclohm is now able to lure in the fairies and grounds for Kartana and either Volt out to Kartana or hard switch and now they either have to retreat their Mega-Diancie, Colossoil, Clefable, Chansey, etc... Or else they take a hit that will probably do decent damage if not KO for an easy boost. If they pull the safe play by retreating then you have either earned yourself a free switch in to whatever mon you think you should go to or you are free to fire off Psycho Cuts or Sacred Swords to hit potential switch-ins hard. It definitely needs support and isn't anywhere near being one of the better wallbreakers in CAP but it does have some strong selling points that make it a good fit for certain teams and I think B- is underestimating the paper cutter's ability to pressure and break past certain things that can prove to be a huge nuisence if not swiftly dealt with.
 
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I agree with the Kartana rise.

A- to A
Chansey is amazing right now. If it is usually played in stall teams, chansey fits well even with less bulky archetype in being used with Tomohawk. It deals with stuff like Ash Greninja, Volkraken, Charizard-mega Y, Magearna,, Syclant, Stratagem,... Very common threats who are difficult to handle to plenty of teams. Chansey gives a nice support to the team with Stealth Rocks without being too passive in threating a switch with TW. Especially, to bypass chansey and tomohawk together is very difficult to common teams.


Mega Diancie should be ranked as well (and I see maybe a drop of Tangrowth/Crucibelle no-mega but it will be for an other time).
 
I agree with the Kartana rise.

A- to A
Chansey is amazing right now. If it is usually played in stall teams, chansey fits well even with less bulky archetype in being used with Tomohawk. It deals with stuff like Ash Greninja, Volkraken, Charizard-mega Y, Magearna,, Syclant, Stratagem,... Very common threats who are difficult to handle to plenty of teams. Chansey gives a nice support to the team with Stealth Rocks without being too passive in threating a switch with TW. Especially, to bypass chansey and tomohawk together is very difficult to common teams.


Mega Diancie should be ranked as well (and I see maybe a drop of Tangrowth/Crucibelle no-mega but it will be for an other time).
I disagree with this rise because sure it deals with those mons, it doesn't deal well with mons it is paired well. For example, zard-y, volkraken, magearna is commonly paired with duggy. Chansey can also be set up bait for mons like sd lando and dd salamence.
 
Rotom-W: A- --> B+/B
Rotom has been struggling to do much of anything lately, especially after Krillowatt and Cyclohm got Volt Switch. Common metagame pokemon are caring less and less about Rotom, such as Smack Down/Gravity Lando, Zygarde, Koko, etc. It's walling abilities aren't anything to note, as most of the top-tier mons have an incredibly easy time dealing with it, such as Zard-Y, Volkraken, Tangrowth, Medicham, and 3 of the 4 tapus (lele, koko, bulu). It's much more on par with pokes such as Jirachi, Torn-T, Revenankh, and Salamence. Its ability to get easily worn down doesn't help it either, and it's just struggling to find a niche on teams compared to other bulky pivots.

Ninetales-A: B- --> B
Ninetales has been seeing a lot of usage lately for good reason: The immense power of Veil. With the addition of some of the new megas, such as Altaria and Diancie, Veil has found itself near the viability of Webs. Many of the abusers of Veil, such as Zygarde, Tyranitar-Mega, Revenankh, and Naviathan are all extremely hard to deal with under veil, bolstering their already great natural bulk. In the CAP metagame, Rapid Spin is much more common that Defog, allowing for an easier time to set up Veil as well. Ninetales also cripples standard "counters" to veil, such as Tyranitar and Rain, in its ability to use hail to just negate the effect of the opposing weather in addition to its ability Snow Warning. Hypnosis allows it to cripple opposing weather inducers, and Freeze dry hits most common Pokemon found on rain for 2x or 4x damage, save Koko and Mollux. Look at the pinnacle of competitive CAP; CAPTT and you'll notice that Veil has been used quite a bit, and to some success as well. Ninetales-A is showing just how potent A-veil really is, and it's very close to becoming the dominant niche playstyle.

Marowak-A A- --> B+
Marowak has always been one poke that's been extremely difficult to switch into. However, with such pitiful speed, it's hard to use Maro-A without TR support. Being crippled by Knock Off is always a concern, since many pokes that Maro wants to break can carry it (Clefable, Ferrothorn,Malaconda) as well as knowing that offensive drops to Magearna's Twinkle Tackle after rocks (252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) makes one of its main niches outside of tr to be wasted. It also gets worn down incredibly easy, same as Rotom, due to it having 0 recovery outside of Rest, and taking chip every time it wants to come in on any of Koko/Magearna/Medi's attacks, pokes it should check. Even with 252 hp, it's dropping to Magearna's Twinkle Tackle/Medi's ZHB after one layer of spikes+rocks. If you're in desperate need of a fairy/electric check, look no further than Pyroak, who sits in A- currently, can set rocks like Maro, and in general can sponge actual hits from Koko/Mage/Krill/Cyclohm, rather than falling to any strong hit coming its way. Maro just needs too much support in an offensive role and doesn't have the same utility it did at the start of the gen.
 
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G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Ok, some nominations for some CAPs and stuff to rule up discussion after the rather important Arena Trap ban.

Wow. The rankings need a serious tuneup after CAPTT3 is over, as these rankings isn't anything like the current metagame (Mega Diancie ain't there)

to S rank
I think that the banning of Dugtrio has made Magearna much more useful, and gives it alot more freedom, both literally and figuratively. I think Magearna should have risen earlier, but with a ban to Arena Trap and subsequent decrease in Arena Trap benefactors that generally beat it are more than enough proof to bump it up.

to A- rank
Not only has the ban to Arena Trap basically means that Mollux isn't deadweight in half of team matchups, but with the eventual surge in Magearna and Clefable makes it alot better to run.

to A+ rank
Basically Mollux's case, but it was even better initially.

to A- rank
This isn't really about Duggy, and more about recent metagame thrends. Kitsunoh has consistently been putting in work for me and others I have noted, and has more than proven itself a capable and quite splashable mon depending on your team's specific needs. Bulky Defogger? Wispy Kit lays the land. Faerie check? Iron Fist Meteor Mash really hurts. Scarfer? Not as powerful as others but it makes up for it with its great utility and the wide variety of threatscit can revengekill.

to A- rank
Kyube is being slept on. With its classic LO sets gaining traction thanks to bulky teams running all over the place, and its Subzero Slammer set just absolutely making things die, I think it needs to go up a rank to justify its use. Duggy biting the bullet also makes it threatening to bulkier builds even more so with its stallbreaking set.

I know there are much ranking shuffles, but I neither have time nor energy to think up alot of discussion about them.

TL:DR Stallbreakers and slow wallbreakers got a nice buff, Electric types (especially ones with strong Ice coverage) are a whole lot easier to run Krilowatt, mons that loved the moles presense deserves some drops (Mega Zard Y should be at least A- now, Volga still doesn't pass my book of falling off as yet).

Hope this gets visited soon!
 

Tadasuke

Tuh-dah-skay
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Ok, some nominations for some CAPs and stuff to rule up discussion after the rather important Arena Trap ban.

Wow. The rankings need a serious tuneup after CAPTT3 is over, as these rankings isn't anything like the current metagame (Mega Diancie ain't there)

to S rank
I think that the banning of Dugtrio has made Magearna much more useful, and gives it alot more freedom, both literally and figuratively. I think Magearna should have risen earlier, but with a ban to Arena Trap and subsequent decrease in Arena Trap benefactors that generally beat it are more than enough proof to bump it up.

to A- rank
Not only has the ban to Arena Trap basically means that Mollux isn't deadweight in half of team matchups, but with the eventual surge in Magearna and Clefable makes it alot better to run.

to A+ rank
Basically Mollux's case, but it was even better initially.

to A- rank
This isn't really about Duggy, and more about recent metagame thrends. Kitsunoh has consistently been putting in work for me and others I have noted, and has more than proven itself a capable and quite splashable mon depending on your team's specific needs. Bulky Defogger? Wispy Kit lays the land. Faerie check? Iron Fist Meteor Mash really hurts. Scarfer? Not as powerful as others but it makes up for it with its great utility and the wide variety of threatscit can revengekill.

to A- rank
Kyube is being slept on. With its classic LO sets gaining traction thanks to bulky teams running all over the place, and its Subzero Slammer set just absolutely making things die, I think it needs to go up a rank to justify its use. Duggy biting the bullet also makes it threatening to bulkier builds even more so with its stallbreaking set.

I know there are much ranking shuffles, but I neither have time nor energy to think up alot of discussion about them.

TL:DR Stallbreakers and slow wallbreakers got a nice buff, Electric types (especially ones with strong Ice coverage) are a whole lot easier to run Krilowatt, mons that loved the moles presense deserves some drops (Mega Zard Y should be at least A- now, Volga still doesn't pass my book of falling off as yet).

Hope this gets visited soon!
I don't think Dug was the thing holding Kitsunoh back. I don't see why it deserves A-
 
Fidgit to A+: I know sound a little crazy but imo Fidgit is the best hazzard setter can put STAB spikes, stealth rocks and toxic spikes but at the same time you can put him encore if they use rapid spin and change to a pursuit user or a set up mon or if they have magic bounce you just do skill swap nobody expect fidgit use that. If you want use a tailwind or trick room team you must put fidgit beacuse the abailitty persistent wich boost more turns and it dosent appear when is finished so you can use that for you advantage. can run icy win for zygarde and landorus t, Earth power for bulky steel types run u-turn to get a switch to the sweeper

Cyclohm to -A or B+:
I know cyclohm is a great physical wall but get outclased by ferro and pyroak due the fairy resist and cyclohm dont live vs landorus t wich is the most used ground type.

Crucibelle to A:
Now dugtrio got banned crucibelle is a great revenge killer with strong atacks like head sash, gunk shot and wood hammer and a great speed conbined with regenerator is to good and u-turn to switch and kill all tapus and most of the flying types

Kartana to B or B+:
I really think Kartana is the best late game sweeper due a really strong atacks and a high speed and is easy to play and 2hko allmost all pokemon in the metagame but with rock put in the camp and with the right parnert make a lot of troubles to the most pysical walls and it have a lot of set you can use for example focus shash kartana ,SD fightnium or SD with psy cut z to kill tomohawk or my favorite choice scarf here some fun calcs of all this sets:
252+ Atk Kartana Shattered Psyche (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 332-392 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kartana Shattered Psyche (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 238-282 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kartana Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk in Psychic Terrain: 250-296 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery this calc show why with the right parnert wich imo is tapu lele make a lot of problem
252+ Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 177-208 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 307-363 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 277-327 (83.1 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 250-295 (73 - 86.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 186-220 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The only pokemon to kartana to kill is celesteela but with the core of kartana, a strong special sweeper and tapu lele is hard to live with this core
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
I agree with Airwind for the most part but have to disagree with a Cyclohm drop. The comparisons drawn to Ferrothorn are fair despite being off a bit.
Cyclohm has a couple of unique traits that really distinguish it in the physical wall niche. Slack Off is a great move for a wall but what really puts Cyclohm leagues ahead of competition is Heal Bell. Being able to relieve itself of toxic is a major boon for a wall. Don't get me wrong, though.

Cyclohm excels at walling physical attackers but that isn't all it has going for it. Not only does it wall large portions of the physical meta but it also has the power and coverage to push back things that it probably shouldn't be able to push back. For example, speaking directly from experience, a healthy Cyclohm beats unboosted Landorus quite often.


252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 252-296 (60 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cyclohm Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 344-408 (107.8 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Cyclohm competes directly with Pyroak for physical wall niche but that fairy resist comes with the price of being weak to stealth rock. Being weak to flying makes Pyroak's job a bit more daunting and this is an actual good reason to use Cyclohm over Pyroak. You can't put out hazards with Cyclohm but you do not have to live in fear of Flynium-Z when using Cyclohm. Which makes the match-up against some prominent physical attackers that much more desirable.

Now, I don't know about you all but I've never saw a Ferrothorn OHKO a Landorus. They don't exactly compete and that is why I think the comparison is a bit off. Ferrothorn has a great typing and good defenses but it is most useful with utility sets that sport Hazards or Knock Off. Cyclohm is a pure defensive wall and is probably the best option available if you're playing CAP. Also, Volt Switch lets Cyclohm pivot about which is insanely useful so while they are comparable, I do not feel that one outclasses the other since they don't do the exact same thing. Don't drop the dragon.
 
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I'm going to cover some obvious thing and do some other nominations :
A -> Unranked : Goodbye and good riddance.

A+ -> A- / B+ : I already thought that A+ was way too high even when Arena Trap was allowed due to the splashability and overall effectiveness of Zard-Y compared to the other A+ ranked Mons, especially when Shed Shell on Toxapex became more common. I don't think that a drop will surprise anyone as you won't have Dug to remove Zard-Y's checks / counters like Toxapex, Crucibelle-Mega and to a lesser extent Cyclohm, which are going to be even better. Furthermore, the realease of both Diancie-Mega and Latias-Mega, which are both big threat for Zard-Y (especially the second one which is a full stop in most cases) and competitor for the Mega Slot doesn't help neither.

Unranked -> A+ : Diancie-Mega is in my opinion the best Mega currently available in CAP, and obviously the Arena Trap ban helps a lot. There's no CAPmon being able to safely switch on her, the Fairy STAB is extremly useful in a Metagame where Tomohawk and Colossoil are everywhere, and she all the tools she needs to break through Pyroak, Cyclohm, Fidgit, Arghonaut and Mollux too. Overall there are very few safe switch in and Diancie-Mega can also provide a good support with Magic Bounce since she can disable Stealth Rock from non offensive Tomohawk.

Unranked -> B+ / A- : Latias-Mega is probably one of the best switch in to Specs Volkraken as it will probably never run a SE HP just to hit her, as well as a good check / counter to some threats like offensive Tomohawk, Keldeo, Zard-Y, Stratagem, Non-Dazzling Gleam Koko... Despite her Dark weakness, Non-AV Colossoil has to be careful when trying to Pursuit trap her since Ice Beam or Surf will hurt and the rare Reflect Type variant fears nothing from him aside from U-Turn. However, it's a little unfortunate that Stored Power CM Latias-Mega can struggle a bit against Hazehawk, but can still prove to be dangerous against any kind of team if he packs the most needed move (either a coverage move, Refresh or Reflect Type). Latias-Mega is a pretty good defoger as well since she can threaten Tomohawk and Landorus T with the right move, among other SR setters.

A- -> A+ : I don't think anyone would be surprised to see Heatran rising after the ban of Dug, both SubToxic and Offensive trapper work extremely well and Heatran's typing and ability are just as good as ever to check threats like non Focus Blast-Magearna, Zard-Y, Tapu Lele... Being able to run freely Leftovers and Groundium-Z or Grassium-Z makes Heatran very effective as a stallbreaker. The simple presence of Heatran means that Volkraken can't locking himself into Fire Blast without being careful.

B+ -> A- / A: I think Zapdos is the best Pokemon to bring against other birds as it doesn't fear much from Tomohawk, Pinsir-Mega (unless he packs something like Stone Edge, which is unlikely), Celesteela and Cawmodore. It's a solid answer to most variants of the two currents S Mon as well as an effective Defoger thanks to his match up against them and Ferrothorn.

A- -> A : Sticky Web teams are very tough to deal with in my opinion and I think having a setter as good as Necturna available is one of the main reason why : aside from Skarmory, Malaconda and Sableye-Mega, who are either rarely seen or mainly on stall teams, when you probably don't really need Sticky Web now that Dugtrio is gone, Necturna pratically beats every other hazard removers as long as she packs the right move and / or item (Psychium-Z against Tomohawk and to a lesser extent Fidgit, STAB Power Whip against Colossoil and Tapu Fini, Shadow Claw against Mew and Kitsunoh and Stone Edge for Zapdos and Mollux). But don't overlook her other sets, because Ghostium-Z Shell Smash Necturna is brutal against any team which doesn't use Hazehawk or Clefable, and Band Necturna can basically lure in and kill anything you want. She also have plenty of usable set like Z-Geomancy, Belly Drum, Seed, Double Statut... So I think she definitely deserves to be ranked alongside with other metagame defining threats like Colossoil, Syclant...

A- -> B : Tapu Fini is, in my opinion, mostly outclassed by Arghonaut as a defensive Pokemon since this one checks / counters everything (or almost) that Tapu Fini wants to stop like Syclant, Volkraken, Ash-Greninja and Zard-X. Even though he may have a better defensive typing in most regard, the lack of recovery really hurts him and he cannot put a real fight back against most Arghonaut fears aside from Tomohawk. I would only use him over Arghonaut if I really need an Hazard remover or if I absolutely don't want to have more Fairy, Fly and Psychic weaknesses, because Arghonaut covers more stuff like Volcarona thanks to Unaware and is more easy to use in the long term. Fini is far from being the best Stallbreaker as well.

A- -> A : Even since Aurumoth doesn't have Illusion anymore and thus is less played, Unaware clefable is still very nice to have because of the huge amount of set up sweepers in the metagame and Clefable's weaknesses aren't too troublesome against most of them. Magic Guard sets are very good as well since Spikes are used quite often and Clefable fear nothing from them and thus can constantly switch during the match.

B- -> B+ : I know I already asked for a rise, but Gastrodon is just so easy to put on a team thanks to the number of dangerous things it can check / counter like Magearna, Koko, Greninja, Ash-Ninja, Volkraken, Mollux and the newcomer Diancie-Mega, and B- doesn't reflect that. One of the main argument against his rise was his passivity, but the fear of Scald burn and Toxic can really make him hard to switch into in some case, and it can be a pain to pass without Grass coverage, which is very easy to cover defensively.

B -> Somewhere higher : No more Arena Trap means that Stall teams will be crying by seeing him on the opposite team, and Hoopa-U is probably the deadliest Wallbreaker and the most difficult Pokemon to switch into, the Choice Scarf set gives him a much better match-up against offense and with Web support its just brutal.

I agree with a rise for the following mons : Krilowatt, Kitsunoh (I already explained why the Wishtect set is so damn effective), Toxapex, Mew, Mollux, Ninetales-A, Magearna, Kartana and Kyurem-B. I also agree with a drop for Rotom-W. I don't have much else to add about these nominations. I also think that Swampert-Mega, Kingdra, Alomomola, Revenankh, Cofagrigus and Porygon2 should all rise as well and that some Mons like Chandelure and Ditto should be added, but I'm tired of writting now.
 
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Mollux B+ -> A-/A
With dugtrio gone, mollux has a better time in the tier. It checks a lot of water types, grass types and fairy types. It also has a lot of utility like rocks, tspikes, rapid spin and heal bell. When dugtrio was still in the tier, this mon always seemed deadweight in most matchups. I wanted it to check volkraken, but couldn't do it because dugtrio is paired with volk. Mollux is also a very good counter to mawile depending on evs. I have been experimenting with 3 attacks recover and so far it does a lot of damage since no one runs strong fire resist.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I'm going to cover some obvious thing and do some other nominations :
A -> Unranked : Goodbye and good riddance.

A+ -> A- / B+ : I already thought that A+ was way too high even when Arena Trap was allowed due to the splashability and overall effectiveness of Zard-Y compared to the other A+ ranked Mons, especially when Shed Shell on Toxapex became more common. I don't think that a drop will surprise anyone as you won't have Dug to remove Zard-Y's checks / counters like Toxapex, Crucibelle-Mega and to a lesser extent Cyclohm, which are going to be even better. Furthermore, the realease of both Diancie-Mega and Latias-Mega, which are both big threat for Zard-Y (especially the second one which is a full stop in most cases) and competitor for the Mega Slot doesn't help neither.

Unranked -> A+ : Diancie-Mega is in my opinion the best Mega currently available in CAP, and obviously the Arena Trap ban helps a lot. There's no CAPmon being able to safely switch on her, the Fairy STAB is extremly useful in a Metagame where Tomohawk and Colossoil are everywhere, and she all the tools she needs to break through Pyroak, Cyclohm, Fidgit, Arghonaut and Mollux too. Overall there are very few safe switch in and Diancie-Mega can also provide a good support with Magic Bounce since she can disable Stealth Rock from non offensive Tomohawk.

Unranked -> B+ / A- : Latias-Mega is probably one of the best switch in to Specs Volkraken as it will probably never run a SE HP just to hit her, as well as a good check / counter to some threats like offensive Tomohawk, Keldeo, Zard-Y, Stratagem, Non-Dazzling Gleam Koko... Despite her Dark weakness, Non-AV Colossoil has to be careful when trying to Pursuit trap her since Ice Beam or Surf will hurt and the rare Reflect Type variant fears nothing from him aside from U-Turn. However, it's a little unfortunate that Stored Power CM Latias-Mega can struggle a bit against Hazehawk, but can still prove to be dangerous against any kind of team if he packs the most needed move (either a coverage move, Refresh or Reflect Type). Latias-Mega is a pretty good defoger as well since she can threaten Tomohawk and Landorus T with the right move, among other SR setters.

A- -> A+ : I don't think anyone would be surprised to see Heatran rising after the ban of Dug, both SubToxic and Offensive trapper work extremely well and Heatran's typing and ability are just as good as ever to check threats like non Focus Blast-Magearna, Zard-Y, Tapu Lele... Being able to run freely Leftovers and Groundium-Z or Grassium-Z makes Heatran very effective as a stallbreaker. The simple presence of Heatran means that Volkraken can't locking himself into Fire Blast without being careful.

B+ -> A- / A: I think Zapdos is the best Pokemon to bring against other birds as it doesn't fear much from Tomohawk, Pinsir-Mega (unless he packs something like Stone Edge, which is unlikely), Celesteela and Cawmodore. It's a solid answer to most variants of the two currents S Mon as well as an effective Defoger thanks to his match up against them and Ferrothorn.

A- -> A : Sticky Web teams are very tough to deal with in my opinion and I think having a setter as good as Necturna available is one of the main reason why : aside from Skarmory, Malaconda and Sableye-Mega, who are either rarely seen or mainly on stall teams, when you probably don't really need Sticky Web now that Dugtrio is gone, Necturna pratically beats every other hazard removers as long as she packs the right move and / or item (Psychium-Z against Tomohawk and to a lesser extent Fidgit, STAB Power Whip against Colossoil and Tapu Fini, Shadow Claw against Mew and Kitsunoh and Stone Edge for Zapdos and Mollux). But don't overlook her other sets, because Ghostium-Z Shell Smash Necturna is brutal against any team which doesn't use Hazehawk or Clefable, and Band Necturna can basically lure in and kill anything you want. She also have plenty of usable set like Z-Geomancy, Belly Drum, Seed, Double Statut... So I think she definitely deserves to be ranked alongside with other metagame defining threats like Colossoil, Syclant...

A- -> B : Tapu Fini is, in my opinion, mostly outclassed by Arghonaut as a defensive Pokemon since this one checks / counters everything (or almost) that Tapu Fini wants to stop like Syclant, Volkraken, Ash-Greninja and Zard-X. Even though he may have a better defensive typing in most regard, the lack of recovery really hurts him and he cannot put a real fight back against most Arghonaut fears aside from Tomohawk. I would only use him over Arghonaut if I really need an Hazard remover or if I absolutely don't want to have more Fairy, Fly and Psychic weaknesses, because Arghonaut covers more stuff like Volcarona thanks to Unaware and is more easy to use in the long term. Fini is far from being the best Stallbreaker as well.

A- -> A : Even since Aurumoth doesn't have Illusion anymore and thus is less played, Unaware clefable is still very nice to have because of the huge amount of set up sweepers in the metagame and Clefable's weaknesses aren't too troublesome against most of them. Magic Guard sets are very good as well since Spikes are used quite often and Clefable fear nothing from them and thus can constantly switch during the match.

B- -> B+ : I know I already asked for a rise, but Gastrodon is just so easy to put on a team thanks to the number of dangerous things it can check / counter like Magearna, Koko, Greninja, Ash-Ninja, Volkraken, Mollux and the newcomer Diancie-Mega, and B- doesn't reflect that. One of the main argument against his rise was his passivity, but the fear of Scald burn and Toxic can really make him hard to switch into in some case, and it can be a pain to pass without Grass coverage, which is very easy to cover defensively.

B -> Somewhere higher : No more Arena Trap means that Stall teams will be crying by seeing him on the opposite team, and Hoopa-U is probably the deadliest Wallbreaker and the most difficult Pokemon to switch into, the Choice Scarf set gives him a much better match-up against offense and with Web support its just brutal.

I agree with a rise for the following mons : Krilowatt, Kitsunoh (I already explained why the Wishtect set is so damn effective), Toxapex, Mew, Mollux, Ninetales-A, Magearna, Kartana and Kyurem-B. I also agree with a drop for Rotom-W. I don't have much else to add about these nominations. I also think that Swampert-Mega, Kingdra, Alomomola, Revenankh, Cofagrigus and Porygon2 should all rise as well and that some Mons like Chandelure and Ditto should be added, but I'm tired of writting now.
I agree with all of these statements as well.
I could also argue for a Naviathan rise as well, but I'd really prefer waiting on seeing how Navi reacts to Duggy's departure.(#CMisBack!)

I do think that Volcarona should drop a subrank as well.

Volcarona lost its favourite partner, and with both Mollux and Heatran gaining a resurge in usage Volc is hardpressed to run HP Ground to beat them, skewering its matchup against other Volc answers in the process (Arghonaut for example)
This 4MSS that usually can be ignored due to Duggy trapping threats for it is rearing its ugly head and makes it easier to dance around and check / counter.
Also trends such as Fini dropping off in favour of Argh, priority becoming increasingly more common and a lot of 100+ scarfers just ruin the moth's fun.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
I don't have time for a whole post with nuanced logic so I'll keep it short and sweet.

I do not think Charizard-Y should be dropped and certainly not by that much (I could MAYBE understand a drop to A but anything lower sounds absurd to my ears and even still I find the current ranking best). Dugtrio being banned doesn't mean that suddenly a bunch of new things can now switch into Char-Y. Yes, there's Chansey. But Dugtrio trapping and killing Chansey has never been the only way to bypass that thing. Yes, many of mons that could dare switch into Zard-Y were somewhat handled by Dugtrio. No, Dugtrio going away doesn't increase the number of these mons that can switch in. Chansey, Toxapex, maybe Cyclohm, certain Zygarde sets, I guess Mega Crucibelle, and the very rare Mega Latias... This is still a very small list by any definition. I have not seen a huge rise in these mons since Dugtrio was banned (it's been a very brief time since the ban so sample sizes aren't good but I've actually seen a *decrease* in Toxapex's usage somewhat related to a decrease in stall). Zard-Y has a few shaky switch ins and fewer solid switch ins. It's still a very fearsome force in the metagame.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
Hi, I'd like to nominate Dragonite for B rank (up from C rank). I believe that the CAP meta makes it rather more threatening than it is in OU, largely due to pokemon such as Tomohawk and to some extent Colossoil preventing Stealth Rock from being as big an issue, while a larger variety in physical walls and tanks such as Tomohawk, Cyclohm and Arghonaut means that pokemon such as Skarmory, which successfully stop Dragonite much of the time, are outclassed in most other respects and therefore less common.

While the pokemon is by no means metagame-defining, I find that the dd / Z-fly / eq / espeed set is an extremely capable late-game sweeper. It requires stealth rock to be kept off its side of the field and for certain checks to be softened. However, once these are guaranteed and it comes in safely, there's surprisingly little in the metagame that stops it. Tomohawk can haze, but faints anyway to a Z-fly, while even with Ice Beam, physically defensive Cyclohm loses to it. Landorus-t fails to prevent Dragonite from setting up a 2nd time, at which point Z-fly OHKOs; standard Ferrothorn faints to Z-fly 50% of the time and is unable to do anything in response, and pokemon such as Celesteela or Cawmodore risk the less common but still usable Fire Punch. Other common physical walls such as Arghonaut and Tangrowth are not even capable of forcing the mon to use its Z-move.

I found that (outside of generally unviable pokemon such as Quagsire) there were two ways to prevent Dragonite from successfully sweeping in the late-game or even mid-game: To sac something to its Z-move then sending in a check like Lando-T (which requires either that you have 2 whole checks to the mon, or that you successfully predict and sac something else - not something I'd want to rely on), or that you keep up enough offensive pressure that it never gets a chance to set up in the first place. The latter of these is by far the more common, but nonetheless rather tricky to manage.

Therefore, while Dragonite requires a certain amount of team support as well as use of the Z-crystal slot, I think the mon is more on par with the likes Mimikyu and Suicune than with Buzzwole and Kyurem, and should be higher-ranked.

A lot of these calcs concern KOing without using the Z-move even when it's a simple KO with. This is to demonstrate that even if you successfully sac something irrelevant to the Supersonic Skytrike, it can still be very hard to win.

252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 494-584 (119.3 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It should be noted, however, that no combination of Fly and DD will beat Tomohawk, as it can always Haze and Roost. It's often worth losing the ability to set up via multiscale in the future if it means guaranteeing that you catch tomohawk with the Z-move.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 236-278 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cyclohm Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
Even the rare Ice Beam Cyclohm fails to win if Dragonite boosts as it switches in. The rare specs Cyclohm is OHKO'd by eq 70% of the time and Draco only KOs back 30% of the time even if it lives:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cyclohm: 316-374 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Cyclohm Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 286-337 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 382-450 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 221-261 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No matter what the set, Dnite wins if it clicks DD a 2nd time on landot. It's worth noting that Dnite wins against almost any Landot without using the Z-move, if need be.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 322-381 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 80-94 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
No amount of leftovers + leech seed + protect heals ferro enough, and even without multiscale gyro ball won't do a huge amount.

252+ Atk Dragonite Fly vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 344-408 (85.7 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 128-151 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 65-76 (20.1 - 23.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Even with:
252+ Atk Dragonite Fly vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 248-294 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's worth noting that Fly has more pp than Recover, and a higher chance to crit than to miss.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fly vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 314-372 (77.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-112 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO
If Dragonite can't use its Z-move here, then Sleep Powder coupled with Hidden Power Ice results in a ~50.5% chance of Tangrowth winning considering crit chances, miss chances, and the fact that HP ice koing turn 2 is a roll. It dies instantly to Z-fly though, of course, and doesn't win if it's missing either hp ice or sleep powder.


Regarding Celesteela and Skarmory:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 216-256 (54.2 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The two still check Dnite somewhat successfully. However, I would still question the choice to use them over Tomohawk on many teams.
 
Hi, I'd like to nominate Dragonite for B rank (up from C rank). I believe that the CAP meta makes it rather more threatening than it is in OU, largely due to pokemon such as Tomohawk and to some extent Colossoil preventing Stealth Rock from being as big an issue, while a larger variety in physical walls and tanks such as Tomohawk, Cyclohm and Arghonaut means that pokemon such as Skarmory, which successfully stop Dragonite much of the time, are outclassed in most other respects and therefore less common.

While the pokemon is by no means metagame-defining, I find that the dd / Z-fly / eq / espeed set is an extremely capable late-game sweeper. It requires stealth rock to be kept off its side of the field and for certain checks to be softened. However, once these are guaranteed and it comes in safely, there's surprisingly little in the metagame that stops it. Tomohawk can haze, but faints anyway to a Z-fly, while even with Ice Beam, physically defensive Cyclohm loses to it. Landorus-t fails to prevent Dragonite from setting up a 2nd time, at which point Z-fly OHKOs; standard Ferrothorn faints to Z-fly 50% of the time and is unable to do anything in response, and pokemon such as Celesteela or Cawmodore risk the less common but still usable Fire Punch. Other common physical walls such as Arghonaut and Tangrowth are not even capable of forcing the mon to use its Z-move.

I found that (outside of generally unviable pokemon such as Quagsire) there were two ways to prevent Dragonite from successfully sweeping in the late-game or even mid-game: To sac something to its Z-move then sending in a check like Lando-T (which requires either that you have 2 whole checks to the mon, or that you successfully predict and sac something else - not something I'd want to rely on), or that you keep up enough offensive pressure that it never gets a chance to set up in the first place. The latter of these is by far the more common, but nonetheless rather tricky to manage.

Therefore, while Dragonite requires a certain amount of team support as well as use of the Z-crystal slot, I think the mon is more on par with the likes Mimikyu and Suicune than with Buzzwole and Kyurem, and should be higher-ranked.

A lot of these calcs concern KOing without using the Z-move even when it's a simple KO with. This is to demonstrate that even if you successfully sac something irrelevant to the Supersonic Skytrike, it can still be very hard to win.

252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 494-584 (119.3 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It should be noted, however, that no combination of Fly and DD will beat Tomohawk, as it can always Haze and Roost. It's often worth losing the ability to set up via multiscale in the future if it means guaranteeing that you catch tomohawk with the Z-move.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 236-278 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cyclohm Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
Even the rare Ice Beam Cyclohm fails to win if Dragonite boosts as it switches in. The rare specs Cyclohm is OHKO'd by eq 70% of the time and Draco only KOs back 30% of the time even if it lives:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cyclohm: 316-374 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Cyclohm Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 286-337 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 382-450 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 221-261 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No matter what the set, Dnite wins if it clicks DD a 2nd time on landot. It's worth noting that Dnite wins against almost any Landot without using the Z-move, if need be.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 322-381 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 80-94 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
No amount of leftovers + leech seed + protect heals ferro enough, and even without multiscale gyro ball won't do a huge amount.

252+ Atk Dragonite Fly vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 344-408 (85.7 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 128-151 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 65-76 (20.1 - 23.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Even with:
252+ Atk Dragonite Fly vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 248-294 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's worth noting that Fly has more pp than Recover, and a higher chance to crit than to miss.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fly vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 314-372 (77.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-112 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO
If Dragonite can't use its Z-move here, then Sleep Powder coupled with Hidden Power Ice results in a ~50.5% chance of Tangrowth winning considering crit chances, miss chances, and the fact that HP ice koing turn 2 is a roll. It dies instantly to Z-fly though, of course, and doesn't win if it's missing either hp ice or sleep powder.


Regarding Celesteela and Skarmory:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 216-256 (54.2 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The two still check Dnite somewhat successfully. However, I would still question the choice to use them over Tomohawk on many teams.
Actually coba berry tomo Is a thing now so it has to watch out for that b4 using z fly
 
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Aurumoth to like C, it's gotten so much worse ever since Illusion was removed from it. It's barely relevant. It sits at an average speed tier in the current meta and I just don't see much reason to run it over Syclant or Volcarona.
 
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Aurumoth to like C, it's gotten so much worse ever since Illusion was removed from it. It's barely relevant. It sits at an average speed tier in the current meta and I just don't see much reason to run it over Syclant or Volcarona.
while aurumoth did became worse, it is still not bad. C is way too low for aurumoth. It can still be good if u play it right.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
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With the new games out, this thread is now defunct. The VR team will work to get an initial list up sometime soon, and I'll edit in the link once it goes up.
 
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