DADT Repealed

The Australian military actually run more like a police force, which is why the Australian military units were favoured in urban guerilla conflicts like Iraq. They're also fairly important in the South-East Asia area, especially Indonesia, where America's presence isn't felt, largely because there isn't any particular resource held by the area that requires the US to be on good terms with Indonesia for good deals.

That all said, it's much smaller and so isolated morale issues are not as frequent, and probably not as important.
 

Hipmonlee

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I am pleased no one has yet brought out other militaries because quite frankly there is no comparison.
Dunno why I am bothering but I thought I would point out the fact that even setting aside the fact that nobody has brought up other militaries, this is still a straw man because if people did bring up other militaries I would have assumed it would be to demonstrate that allowing homosexuals into the military doesnt compromise anything.

So the fact that Israel has compulsory service is irrelevant. If their army wasnt compromised by allowing homosexuals why would the American army be? The fact that the Australian army is not as vital to global security is also irrelevant. They fight in wars regardless. And if they werent compromised by allowing homosexuals why would America's army be.

Of course, I have done no research. Perhaps they were compromised in some way by allowing homosexuals. Perhaps they dont actually allow homosexuals, why would I know. But in order for your argument to hit its intended target of those particular straw men who would have brought up other countries, you need to suggest some kind of reason that the importance of the American army makes it more likely to be compromised by the introduction of homosexuals.

Have a nice day.
 
Where have you been for the past 10 years?
Apparently missing the part where don't ask don't tell was a huge victory for the homosexual lobby. But what do i know.

EDIT: @ firestorm I'm not sure what study you are referencing. There were polls of military members but that really only looks at the opinions.
 

Firestorm

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Yeah, what do you know? Since you're making it seem like you don't know very much at all.
 

DM

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EDIT: @ firestorm I'm not sure what study you are referencing. There were polls of military members but that really only looks at the opinions.
Uhh, yeah. EXACTLY.

I'm glad this was finally repealed, and even more glad that 8 Republicans voted for it. I'm not going to get ahead of myself, but it shows that compromise can exist and cooler heads can prevail.
 
Does anyone really care if the fighting ability of the Royal Air Force or the Australian Army is compromised? Not really, but if the United States Army and the United States Marines start having problems with unit morale or cohesion because of bad policies made in Washington the entire world is affected, whether directly or indirectly.
Funny you say this, given the US keeps asking their allies for more troops in Afghanistan and Iraq..
 
Yeah, what do you know? Since you're making it seem like you don't know very much at all.
Yeah there was a lot of substance and great points in that post. Nice work.

@ DM the polls weren't even in favor of repealing DADT especially in the Marines and combat units. The places where it matters the most. And asking opinion does nothing to study the implications. Like the cost of readjusting the military to fit a ridiculously tiny percentage of it's members or the implications of repeal.
 

jrrrrrrr

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DADT was at best an imperfect policy originally designed by the Clinton Administration as an a compromise on the military's then policy of complete rejection of homosexuals in the ranks, a policy borne mostly because of the closed spaces most miltary members lived in and the potential for unneccesary distraction there ensuing.
This is a pretty good summary of DADT. It's worth noting that extremely similar arguments were brought up for women serving in the armed forces alongside heterosexual men.

My only real concern now is that it's going to be turned into another social engineering project where being openly gay is a commendable quality for advancement as "reparations," as left-wing Senators and Congressmen demand quotas for openly gay servicemembers in the upper ranks. All of the barracks issues will be sorted out over time and are generally minor concerns.
"Quotas" haven't been legal since the 1970s so I doubt that will happen. Bakke v Regents outlawed quotas for public institutions in 1978. However, private institutions are still allowed to enact any quotas they want.

As for the idea that being gay could somehow cause people to be promoted faster...this just doesn't happen in the United States. Most people here are still Christian. It's not like being a different race where people can share the same ideological views to advance in ranks even if they look different, there is still a big divide between most of this country and the homosexual population. "Tolerance" just means they put up with gays being around them, we're still a very long way from "acceptance".

Besides, having diversity in leadership isn't a bad thing. It helps the leaders keep the pulse of their incredibly diverse underlings more accurately. I agree that forcing the issue may cause a bit of backlash, but I honestly think the fears of people on the extreme religious conservative side are overblown. I've talked to people who honestly think that letting gays in the military is going to cause all of our deaths.

The "homosexual agenda" exists insofar as gays have organized themselves as a political force on the basis they have common policy goals valuable to them solely because those goals are beneficial to them categorically. To deny such a movement exists because calling it by its name might offend people is assinine.
The issue people have with the term "homosexual agenda" is when it's used as a curse word to vilify attempts at reaching equality, as if the primary goal of every gay man is to subjugate heterosexuals rather than coexist with them. That is insulting not only to human intelligence, but to people fighting for equality everywhere. The homosexual agenda exists only as much as the heterosexual agenda. We want equal rights, nothing more.

They might trot a few people out here and there to show feigned outrage but they'd rather be influencing schoolchildren, not soldiers.
I'm not sure what you're talking about when you refer to influencing schoolchildren but I'm going to sidestep the argument here and assume you're talking about teaching kids that treating others differently because of perceived sexual orientation is not acceptable.

An important point brought up by one of the sites I regularly visit (Hillbuzz, some gay Hillary-turned McCain-supporter conservatives living in Chicago's gay neighborhood "Boystown") is that DADT was bad because it enabled blackmail and extortion. DADT was never a great policy and my only concerns about it have always been the fallout of overreach to "correct injustices" or whatever euphemism they use for weakening the United States out of spite.
This is a good point. Even if you don't care about the mental anguish caused by having to hide yourself from your friends 24/7, DADT is a law that literally encourages blackmail and extortion. It also encourages lying, which is not something soldiers should be doing to each other. Most people who supported DADT argued that homosexuals would lower unit cohesion because there is a potential for an ideological or physical barrier between people. I would argue that DADT lowers unit cohesion because there is a guaranteed ideological barrier between those same people.

I am pleased no one has yet brought out other militaries because quite frankly there is no comparison. Israel has compulsory enlistment in the military and so naturally includes all elements of the population. Every other military however might as well be a social club compared to the heavy lifting the United States does around the world. Does anyone really care if the fighting ability of the Royal Air Force or the Australian Army is compromised?
Israel could just as easily not allow outed homosexuals in their armed forces. So could England and Australia. The fact is that there have been no repercussions from allowing gays to openly serve in practice. The reason why nobody brought up armies from other countries is because it hasn't been an issue there for 20 years. The United States isn't nearly as progressive as we think it is. Any reason for keeping the ban was purely based on fears that something *might* happen, and not on actual evidence. This is the definition of homophobia. We should be ashamed that it took so long for DADT to be repealed, not patting ourselves on the back for catching up to the rest of civilized society.

Past is prologue and political correctness in the military has already lead to events like the Fort Hood shooting. It is not a question of if it will be tried, but when and how quickly it will be spotted and stomped (if at all).
Yes, it is certainly a question of "if it will be tried". When was the last time you heard of someone going on a straight-killing rampage because they are gay? When was the last time you heard of violence coming after sweeping strides towards equality was passed? What is the difference between now and last week in the likelihood that this will happen? Wouldn't it be more likely that a homosexual would rampage while they were actually being discriminated against? I would argue that if anything, heterosexuals would be more likely to emulate the Fort Hood shooting because now they have to be exposed to something that some of them don't like in their fellow soldiers. What I'm trying to get at is that this is a problem for EVERY soldier, not just the gay ones.

Yeah, what do you know? Since you're making it seem like you don't know very much at all.
How does this post contribute to the thread?
 

WaterBomb

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You know, this makes me think a bit. If there is no more DADT, then a soldier's sexual preference becomes a matter of discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't this just open the door to more discrimination within the ranks because that's simply what human beings are prone to do?
 
Yeah it can waterbomb, but the only reason sexuality even matters in the first place is bigotry. This is a step to try to correct that. I do like the idea of distraction free soldiers, however, hence the old adage:

"Round hips sink ships"
 

Hipmonlee

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More discrimination within the ranks than people being fired because of their sexual orientation?

It seems unlikely.

Have a nice day.
 

cim

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You know, this makes me think a bit. If there is no more DADT, then a soldier's sexual preference becomes a matter of discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't this just open the door to more discrimination within the ranks because that's simply what human beings are prone to do?
This is actually a legitimate concern. The culture of the military around DADT is that the issue is absolutely never, ever discussed. The repeal could change that if implemented improperly.
 

WaterBomb

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Yeah it can waterbomb, but the only reason sexuality even matters in the first place is bigotry. This is a step to try to correct that. I do like the idea of distraction free soldiers, however, hence the old adage:

"Round hips sink ships"
The problem is, no matter how much we want to, we will never fully eradicate bigotry. Human beings because of the fact that they are naturally uncomfortable with others who are different than them will always display some sort of prejudice, conscious or no. Yes people are quite capable of suppressing these feelings, but the sad truth is that there will always be those who do not. Though DADT itself was a policy with a bad connotation, had it been perfectly executed it would have completely eliminated the subject from discussion, and therefore bigotry wouldn't have been a problem. Once again, the unfortunate side (and DADT's downfall) was that it's theoretically impossible to maintain a policy like that perfectly without any information slipping by or leaking out. In that respect the policy failed as well, so keeping it in place would still cause issues.

I think the simple fact is this: there are always going to be issues when dealing with humans, DADT or no. We're essentially forced to decide which set of issues are more tolerable, those caused by DADT or those caused by the lack thereof.
 

Kevin Garrett

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I agree with Hipmonlee. It was a part of the military's culture to discriminate against soldier's sexual orientation because of the DADT policy. Not just through discharging soldiers either. Soldiers were beaten because they weren't allowed to serve. Without the policy, that kind of action would be seen as unacceptable from the top level down.
 
The problem is, no matter how much we want to, we will never fully eradicate bigotry. Human beings because of the fact that they are naturally uncomfortable with others who are different than them will always display some sort of prejudice, conscious or no. Yes people are quite capable of suppressing these feelings, but the sad truth is that there will always be those who do not. Though DADT itself was a policy with a bad connotation, had it been perfectly executed it would have completely eliminated the subject from discussion, and therefore bigotry wouldn't have been a problem. Once again, the unfortunate side (and DADT's downfall) was that it's theoretically impossible to maintain a policy like that perfectly without any information slipping by or leaking out. In that respect the policy failed as well, so keeping it in place would still cause issues.

I think the simple fact is this: there are always going to be issues when dealing with humans, DADT or no. We're essentially forced to decide which set of issues are more tolerable, those caused by DADT or those caused by the lack thereof.
Well, think about the women's rights movement or the black rights movement or pretty much any other movement for minority rights. At first, there's always a huge backlash, and people continue to discriminate heavily. But, look how far we've come now-- there's far, far less discrimination against either of those two groups, even if some still does exist.

There's no reason to think that the same thing won't happen for the gay rights movement, as well. The key is to get people talking and voicing their opinions on the issue so that eventually, those with the most logical, sensible opinions will prevail and gays will become much more accepted. The first thing that really needs to happen is for homosexuals to be able to safely come out of the closet without fear of getting fired. When it becomes readily apparent that a gay person can do their job just as well as any regular person and that they are perfectly socially competent and normal and such, things will be a lot easier for them.

And quite honestly, there is no excuse for discriminating against them. As long as a person is qualified to participate in the military, they shouldn't be rejected!
 
Well, think about the women's rights movement or the black rights movement or pretty much any other movement for minority rights.

And quite honestly, there is no excuse for discriminating against them. As long as a person is qualified to participate in the military, they shouldn't be rejected!
Firstly I'd like to say that women are about 52% of the population, so technically men are the minority.

Secondly, there is a reason women don't go on submarines even when qualified. That's just a gang rape/bukkake waiting to happen, not to mention all the drama that would come from virtually every guy falling in love with her at the same time.
 
The environment on board a submarine isn't really representative of the environment in the military in general.
 

Deck Knight

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I don't want the thread to devolve away from DADT specifically and we've had enough bad threads on gay issues that I'm not going to go into great detail. It will just go the way it usually does anywhere.

By which I will illustrate tangentially by saying the military has discriminated against me. I was asthmatic growing up so when the Coast Guard looked at my medical record I was pretty much shot from the get-go, despite having grown out of it. I wasn't about to lie to military recruiters.

Discrimination for valid reasons is not in itself bad, especially in the case of a military where your physical and mental capabilities are required to be high-calibur in order to avoid killing your fellow soldiers through ineptitude or weakness.

Taking a clinical look at the various maladies and environmental conditions that afflict homosexuals as a group indicates they may be less desireable candidates for recruitment. These have been studied at great length by a great many people and controlled for any mitigating variables.

In short sexuality is very much not just about bigotry as Morm seems to indiciate. There are real consequences to normalizing a behavior that has over many different times and cultures shown to have similar dysfunctional characteristics. This is not to say a person should be harmed, punished, or fired for it, merely that you can't make two unequal things equal without it causing harm. This is where the "equality" measure fails because there will never be a point in time where a young child being taught that homosexuality is equally healthy way to live is being anything but misled. It is simply not the case empirically. No matter how "open" society becomes the culture that surrounds homosexual activity will always trend towards more dangerous activities than heterosexuality.

Remember they used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. The United States Military was around at that time and long before and naturally it takes a lot longer for people whose lives are on the line to accept pandering and equivocation when they spend portions of their time being shot at. They know everyone in their unit with great detail because they must in order to survive. DADT for the most part kept them quiet about the sexuality issue because it was explicitly verbotten to bring up. Now it is not, and it will be brought up, and there will be consequences for that.

Sexuality is a big deal to a lot of people (gay and straight). They consider it a part of their identity so strong that some have organized around it. They consider it so natural that they may not be willing to analyze it, and if they can silence people through socially accepted intimidation they will do so to avoid reinforcing any doubts. Why do people litter chats with "(BAN ME PLEASE)" when clearly they aren't homosexual and don't hate them? "Don't call me gay bro! No homo!"
 

cim

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I agree with Hipmonlee. It was a part of the military's culture to discriminate against soldier's sexual orientation because of the DADT policy. Not just through discharging soldiers either. Soldiers were beaten because they weren't allowed to serve. Without the policy, that kind of action would be seen as unacceptable from the top level down.
This is literally the opposite of everything I've ever heard from multiple soldiers in the military.
 
The environment on board a submarine isn't really representative of the environment in the military in general.
I was giving a discrete example where people need to be hand picked with everything in mind, including fun bits and orientation.
 
I'm in agreement that this will cause more tensions and problems in the short term, but I also feel that this is something that has to be done. We can't ignore the problem forever, at some point decisive action will be needed. This is just one of the many steps on the road to acceptance (not likely to happen in our lifetimes). It's going to get worse before it gets better. The racial de-segregation analogy is apt.
 

Firestorm

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Yeah there was a lot of substance and great points in that post. Nice work.
That wasn't a rhetorical question. What changes are you saying will take so much time and money? It's not like they're going to need "Gay Barracks". How does initial training change? You spouted a bunch of bullshit that made no logical sense.

I don't want the thread to devolve away from DADT specifically and we've had enough bad threads on gay issues that I'm not going to go into great detail. It will just go the way it usually does anywhere.

By which I will illustrate tangentially by saying the military has discriminated against me. I was asthmatic growing up so when the Coast Guard looked at my medical record I was pretty much shot from the get-go, despite having grown out of it. I wasn't about to lie to military recruiters.

Discrimination for valid reasons is not in itself bad, especially in the case of a military where your physical and mental capabilities are required to be high-calibur in order to avoid killing your fellow soldiers through ineptitude or weakness.

Taking a clinical look at the various maladies and environmental conditions that afflict homosexuals as a group indicates they may be less desireable candidates for recruitment. These have been studied at great length by a great many people and controlled for any mitigating variables.

In short sexuality is very much not just about bigotry as Morm seems to indiciate. There are real consequences to normalizing a behavior that has over many different times and cultures shown to have similar dysfunctional characteristics. This is not to say a person should be harmed, punished, or fired for it, merely that you can't make two unequal things equal without it causing harm. This is where the "equality" measure fails because there will never be a point in time where a young child being taught that homosexuality is equally healthy way to live is being anything but misled. It is simply not the case empirically. No matter how "open" society becomes the culture that surrounds homosexual activity will always trend towards more dangerous activities than heterosexuality.

Remember they used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. The United States Military was around at that time and long before and naturally it takes a lot longer for people whose lives are on the line to accept pandering and equivocation when they spend portions of their time being shot at. They know everyone in their unit with great detail because they must in order to survive. DADT for the most part kept them quiet about the sexuality issue because it was explicitly verbotten to bring up. Now it is not, and it will be brought up, and there will be consequences for that.

Sexuality is a big deal to a lot of people (gay and straight). They consider it a part of their identity so strong that some have organized around it. They consider it so natural that they may not be willing to analyze it, and if they can silence people through socially accepted intimidation they will do so to avoid reinforcing any doubts. Why do people litter chats with "(BAN ME PLEASE)" when clearly they aren't homosexual and don't hate them? "Don't call me gay bro! No homo!"
I know I usually ignore you, but some of this is more insane than I've even known you to be. So could you please tell me what warped logic led you to believe the bolded lines?

I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you just equated "wasn't accepted due to medical history to" to "wasn't accepted because I was born liking men".
 

Nastyjungle

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I'll just say I'm glad it was repealed and leave it at that.
I'd be even more pleased if it didn't have to be an issue in the first place.
 

Firestorm

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Just wanted to post this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service#Canada

As of 1992, lesbians, gays and bisexuals are allowed to openly serve in the military. A study of gays and lesbians in the Canadian military has found that after Canada’s 1992 decision to allow homosexuals to serve openly in its armed forces, military performance did not decline.[6]
The study is the most comprehensive academic study by US researchers of homosexuality in a foreign military ever compiled and reflects an exhaustive inventory of relevant data and research. Its title is "Effects of the 1992 Lifting of Restrictions on Gay and Lesbian Service in the Canadian Forces; Appraising the Evidence".

  • Lifting of restrictions on gay and lesbian service in the Canadian Forces has not led to any change in military performance, unit cohesion, or discipline.
  • Self-identified gay, lesbian, and transsexual members of the Canadian Forces contacted for the study describe good working relationships with peers.
  • The percent of military women who experienced sexual harassment dropped 46% after the ban was lifted. While there were several reasons why harassment declined, one factor was that after the ban was lifted women were free to report assaults without fear that they would be accused of being a lesbian.
  • Before Canada lifted its gay ban, a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers found that 62% said that they would refuse to share showers, undress or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier. After the ban was lifted, follow-up studies found no increase in disciplinary, performance, recruitment, sexual misconduct, or resignation problems.
  • None of the 905 assault cases in the Canadian Forces from November, 1992 (when the ban was lifted) until August, 1995 involved gay bashing or could be attributed to the sexual orientation of one of the parties.
In the past 20 years, the Canadian Forces has gone from being a homophobic organization that actively hounded out gay and lesbian members to one of the world’s leading advocates of open integration. Rana Sioufi, a spokeswoman for the Forces, says after the abolition of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy, the Armed Forces no longer has a specific policy for gay and lesbian members and uniformed personnel regularly march in Pride parades and marry in base chapels. “Members who are same-sex partners are entitled to the same respect and dignity as heterosexual married couples or common-law partners,” Sioufi says.[7]
 

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