D/P Roserade

[RaikouLover]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/roserade

Ahhh, the popular flower. I'm contributing two viable sets to the analysis in this peer edit.

[SET]
name: Toxic Spikes
move 1: Toxic Spikes
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Leaf Storm / Grass Knot
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Focus Sash
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 Spe / 252 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Roserade is an excellent choice as a lead to get Toxic Spikes down early. Good speed, a reliable sleep move, and the Focus Sash almost ensure that Roserade is able to get both layers out on the field before biting the dust. Leaf Storm is the preferred STAB, since Roserade won't be out long, but Grass Knot offers greater damage over two turns among the likes of Gyarados and other heavier opponents in both OU and Ubers. The final slot is for slapping Forry around, as you can switch in and absorb his Toxic Spikes before laying your own. Hidden Power Ice and Ground are viable alternatives to cover specific threats with a 4Xs weakness.</p>

[SET]
name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest / Sludge Bomb
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Thanks to her respectable special defense and Natural Cure, Roserade can come in several times during the course of a battle and lay down spikes. Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire go a long way in keeping spikes on the field, as Starmie, Donphan, and Forretress won't be switching in any time soon. Rest allows Roserade to abuse Natural Cure after spiking, as Hidden Power Ice from the likes of Zapdos and Celebi will fail to 2HKO a 252 HP Roserade. Sludge Bomb can be used as secondary STAB to hit the likes of Salamence and Infernape.</p>


[EVs]

<p>The spiking set greatly benefits from 252 HP EVs by allowing Roserade to tank special hits quite well, giving her more opportunities to lay spikes. This EV spread can also be used on the Toxic Spiker.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Synthesis can be an option on the Sunny Day set for optimal healing. Stun Spore can also be considered to help with Roserade's less-than-stellar speed and sturdiness. Grasswhistle and Aromatherapy are also options on the spiking set since Sleep Powder is illegal with Spikes.</p>

 

[Dormin]

I think both sets, or at least the first, have been waiting to go into the analysis for awhile. Looks good to me--I just have one anal-retentive nit-pick

"Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire go along way"--along needs to be separated

 

[Caelum]

Most of us know these have been standard sets for awhile now and it's about time to add them to the analysis. I'm not saying this is required for it but would it be worth noting that, on the first set, that Grass Knot is an option over Leaf Storm since Grass Knot has a better shot at a 2HKO on 216 HP, min SpD Gyarados? I don't know. Seems like something that might be at least worth a mention since Gyarados is a common lead and that is intended as a lead, even though I agree Leaf Storm is the superior option.

 

[Mekkah]

"Leaf Storm" is two words. Don't capitalize "final", capitalize types such as "Steels" and "Dragons".

 

[KapKap]

Why Focus Sash on the first set? I run max HP as well there.

 

[Earthworm]

I agree that Grass Knot should be added alongside Leaf Storm since Roserade probably doesn't want to switch out and potentially lose its Sash's effectiveness to weather or Stealth Rock after it attacks.

It might also be worth noting that the first set is quite capable of working in the Uber metagame too, since it hits Groudon and Kyogre hard and resists Kyogre's main moves, induces sleep AND lays Toxic Spikes which supposedly work wonders there.

Lastly the Other Options section will also obviously need changing in case nobody notices.

 

[RaikouLover]

The current changes are edited in. I completely had to remove Aromatherapy, Rest, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes from the other options paragraph because of obvious reasons.

Any feedback on the spiker set? I suggested it to Earthworm a while ago, don't know how he made out. I've been using it with fantastic success though.

 

[Aipom]

The current changes are edited in. I completely had to remove Aromatherapy, Rest, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes from the other options paragraph because of obvious reasons.

Any feedback on the spiker set? I suggested it to Earthworm a while ago, don't know how he made out. I've been using it with fantastic success though.

Probably go for leaf storm or grass knot over aromatherapy, just in case you get taunted and need to get some damage in.

 

[KapKap]

Spikes set needs EVs to OHKO Forretress and 2HKO Skarmory with HP fire as least listed as an option.

I still don't understand why the Toxic Spiker can't invest in HP and has to have a Focus Sash. Give it Leftovers or something and put Sash at options.

 

[maddog]

From personal experience with the Toxic Spiker, I think it works best the way that you listed it. On the teams that I use it (only as a lead), it works something like this: Turn 1 Sleep Powder, Turn 2 Toxic Spikes, Turn 3 Toxic Spikes (Focus Sash saves you), Turn 4 whatever. The point of that set is just to get Toxic Spikes down, even if Roserade has to die in the process. That being said, it is extremely effective at that job, and gives my team extra protection against things like Subchomp.

For Leaf Storm vs Grass Knot, I would say to make Grass Knot the main option on the set. Grass Knot can 2hko Gyarados, whereas Leaf Storm will not, because of the power drop.

I agree with the placement of Focus Sash as well. Roserade isn't exactly the sturdiest Pokemon ever, so it needs the Focus Sash to ensure it gets in that second layer. I have tried Leftovers, and honestly it doesn't do very much for me. I use Focus Sash even when I use Tyranitar with no spinner on the same team. It is meant to lead, get those Toxic Spikes down, and then *maybe* come back in later and revenge kill Garchomp. Focus Sash is really the only item for it. I wouldn't even mention Leftovers.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, as maddog put it, the first set is more useful as a lead to get T-spikes out immediately, and I think that is the most effective set. Although, I will mention in the EV section that the first set can also use the second set's EV spread.

Now on to the spiking set, I posted it in the new moveset thread to get some feedback.

Originally Posted by Fat Mr. Happy

That spiking Roserade looks good on paper; it even takes Starmie Ice Beams quite well: a LO 132 SpA EVs (spinner spread) Ice Beam is a 3HKO accounting Leftovers. You can even take a hit, Rest and switch out to a resist next turn.

Also,that Roserade:
-OHKOs 252 HP Donphan
-Does 70-80% to 252 HP Claydol
-Does 81-95% 160HP Starmie
-OHKOs 252 HP Cloyster
-OHKOs 252 HP Forretress

^^^ Saves me doing damage calcs.

Originally Posted by Fat Karrot

I've used that Roserade on my Hitmontop team, and I can attest to its usefulness. It is very useful for spiking on the most random things. Rest only makes it better, and can actually be used to outstall Blissey if you really need to. In general it can be very annoying to the more defensive teams.

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

That Rosarade is interesting to say the least, and with it being backed up with your descriptions it seems to have potential. Being able to hit 'super effective' on Rapid Spin Pokemon (apart from Tentacruel) and the fact that it can come in on up-coming Pokemon in the OU environment such as Zapdos, Celebi and Suicune, it helps Rosarade effectively initiate this tactic with (sure to be) formiddable results.

Good feedback so far.

I think the first set is pretty much done. I suppose I can add leftovers as an option over Focus Sash.

Can I get a mod's update on the status of this edit?

 

[RaikouLover]

Thank you, is that using the defense applet? If so, how much better does the special defense get from using that spread? Because the HP's are still useful for things like Bronzong Gyro Ball's.

 

[Karrot]

If it is a 1% difference, then taking some percentage less from physical hits is nearly always better. 289 compared to a maximum 324 is a large difference for a Pokemon with slightly low HP. It shouldn't be taking physical hits, but it should have the ability to for cases like the aforementioned Bronzong, as well as spiking on an assortment of things from Gliscor and Hippowdon to Machamp, Gyarados, and unboosted Close Combats.

 

[darkie]

And also Ice Shards from Donphan!

 

[RaikouLover]

Agreeing with Karrot. The EV spread will stay with Max HP.

 

[Phuquoph]

The Toxic Spiker was going to be added already (you saved me having to write myself), and the Spiker can go in too.

Take out the different Hidden Powers and just leave Fire. It makes the set look cleaner, and I've always found Fire to be the most effective. Killing Forretress is very handy when you can set up and absorb Toxic Spikes yourself, so that should be mentioned. The value of HP Ground and Ice as alternatives should be mentioned in the Set Comments though.

SpA is the correct way to write Special Attack.

I never got much use from Aromatherapy, since Roserade was almost always either using Spikes or wearing stuff down with her attacks. I would list Sludge Bomb instead, so you can actually hurt Salamence, Infernape and the like.

 

[Invective]

<p> Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire go a long way in keeping spikes on the field, as Starmie, Donphan, and Forretress won't be switching in any time soon. Rest allows Roserade to abuse Natural Cure after spiking, as Hidden Power Ice from the likes of Zapdos and Celebi will fail to 2HKO a 252 HP Roserade. Sludge Bomb can be used as secondary STAB to hit the likes of Salamence and Infernape.</p>
I have just a few nitpicks that i noticed. Adding "to" I think, makes the sentence much cleaner.

---------------------------------

[Other Options]

<p>Synthesis can be an option on the Sunny Day set for optimal healing. Stun Spore can also be considered to help with Roserade's less-than-stellar speed and sturdiness. Since Sleep Powder is illegal with Spikes, Grasswhistle and Aromatherapy are also options on the spiking set.</p>

The way the last sentence is worded can be interpreted to mean that Sleep Powder is illegal with Spikes, Grasswhistle, and Aromatherapy. Rewording could go as such: "Since having Spikes and Sleep Powder is illegal on the same set, Grasswhistle or Aromatherapy could be considered on the spiking set." This wording avoids the ambiguity that comes with your the original sentence.


EDIT:Darkie's edit of the sentence is a lot simpler than mine, and it flows more.

 

[darkie]

Or put the opening clause at the end, to something like this:

<p>Synthesis can be an option on the Sunny Day set for optimal healing. Stun Spore can also be considered to help with Roserade's less-than-stellar speed and sturdiness. Grasswhistle and Aromatherapy are also options on the spiking set because Sleep Powder is illegal with Spikes.</p>

 

[Problem2]

Wouldn't you want your toxic spiker to stay alive so you can reset them in the event that your opponent can absorb them?

 

[RaikouLover]

Edits finished, anything else?

 

[Wayff]

Toxic lets Roserade stall and set up Spikes on Blissey, and isn't a bad option for Gliscor. Hidden Power Ground and Hidden Power Ice need to be in other options. Shadow Ball could be mentioned just to hit Gengar switchins.

Roserade is able to get both layers out on the field

Probaly should be "Roserade is able to get both layers of Toxic Spikes out on the field."

 

[Caelum]

Toxic lets Roserade stall and set up Spikes on Blissey, and isn't a bad option for Gliscor.

I didn't do the calculators for Grass Knot (maybe in an edit) but Leaf Storm does 79% - 94% to maximum HP, minimum special defense Gliscor so I'm not sure if Toxic is really that much more helpful for Gliscor

 

[Wayff]

That's not the point, I'm saying it can screw walls.

 

[Aldaron]

this post is for jrrrrrrr's and Aldaron's purposes...

delete, site represents OP