Charizard

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
DO NOT discuss tiering-related concerns in this thread or you will be infracted (this means no talking about banning it, we have another thread for that) also does anyone actually want to ban this thing LOL

Charizard Analysis

This is a discussion thread for all things Charizard-related. Some ideas for discussion topics are:
  • What sets do you like to run / have you tested out on Charizard?
  • What teams do you like to run Charizard on, and with what partners?
  • What do you use to check Charizard?
  • What effect does Charizard have on the meta, in your opinion? (avoid saying "it has a good/bad effect" please)
  • Anything else Charizard-related! :)
Don't feel the need to address all of these if you post here—in fact, I'd kind of rather you not, just let discussion flow naturally. These are just ideas. Happy posting!
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
I don't think there's much to be said about what we all run on our char y: "oh i run heat wave solar beam fire/focus blast protect" "SHIT REALLY ME TOO!!!" but i'd like to get some discussion flowing on this thread.

See the thing is charizard is a bitch because you straight up cannot expect a neutral mon to be able to take its attacks. The only ways to beat it are a) outspeed it and b) wall it. The range of pkmn that wall it is ridiculous narrow because grass covers fire so well. This makes Charizard Y the ball-buster for bulky offensive / defense teams. What Pokemon that fit on bulky teams have you been using to beat it? Tran is the obvious answer but it's so obvious that any competent char y team will shit all over tran. Maybe some sort of fatmence?
 
I've actually found Bulky Togekiss with TWave is a solid answer to Zard Y as far as support goes. Heat Wave only does 35-42% to it, meaning you can Roost off any damage after you paralyze it. I go for TWave because TW is fucked by TR (haven't seen SunRoom yet but it is a scary thought) and because Paralysis is permanent, meaning Zard is deadweight. It makes for easy cleanup after that.

Aegislash is one of my favorite support options as well. With Wide Guard cockblocking spread moves and Kings Shield to block any direct assault, he makes a fantastic lure so long as you aren't running a Water type next to him or something else Fire weak.

Finally, the obvious pick up on any team is going to be Heatran. The combo of Flash Fire and great special bulk and attack, plus being able to abuse Drought and maybe even Flash Fire makes Tran an easy pick that actually fits a ton if teams. One set I've kinda championed has been AP Shuca Tran:

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 176 HP / 80 Spe
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Protect

This is my favorite Tran set, even if it isn't THE most effective one in the current meta. It has enough bulk to live Adamant Landoge's EQ, and AP does massive damage to Zard (12.5% to OHKO, meaning Fake Out can secure).
 
Thank you based god for the Charizard thread. When Charizard mega evolves to charizard X it loses its weaknesses to water, electric, and its 4x weakness to rock is reduced to only 2x meaning you will actually live a rockslide. Dragon/Fire also means that you are neutral to fairy and ice, this is not true of many other dragon types. One of the best things about Charizard X is that people always assume its Y so people tend to switch out their Rotom-Ws fearing solar beam, or wide guard fearing heat wave, and you get a free turn to set up. The main drawback of Char X is that he picks up a weakness to the omnipresent Earthquake so keep that in mind. Also since Charizard is using your mega slot you cant use Mega Kangaskhan which is a drawback in and of itself.

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Roost / Protect
- Dragon Dance

After 1 dragon dance adamant Char X outspeeds Jolly Mega Kangaskhan, Jolly Terrakion, and speed invested Landorus T, and can OHKO all of them. (100% to OHKO kanga at +1 with flare blitz, 75% to OHKO Terrakion with Dragon claw at +1, and 87.5% to OHKO speed invested Lando T with Flare Blitz at +0). 252 HP also guarantees you will live a Return from Adamant Mega Kangaskhan and Stone Edge from Jolly Terrakion (if mega obviously) so you should have no problem setting up a DD and sweeping. If you manage to get up a second Dragon Dance you can OHKO standard Cress (252 HP / 60 def / +196 SDef) so you pretty much win the game.
An alternative Spread of 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spd can be used if you want to outspeed Deoxys A and Mega Aero after 1 boost but I rarely see either of these 2 and Deo is always carrying a sash anyway so I like to stay nice and bulky.
This set performs best as a late game sweeper in my experience, so make sure you bring teammates than can eliminate threats like Scarf landorus, Follow me Togekiss, SS Kingdra etc. Ferrothorn is a great partner to deal with these mons, but if you can think of something better I'd love to hear it :]

One last thing, If you want to replace one of these attacks with Earthquake to beat Heatran you can, but Earthquake only has a 25% chance to OHKO before one Dragon Drance and you miss out on a lot of KOs if you give up one of the other moves. If you want to run jolly with 3 attacks then EQ never OHKOs tran so it isnt worth it imo.

Edit: using a spread of 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe on Mega Charizard X will allow you to outspeed adamant nature choice scarf Landorus-T at +1
 
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finally

how can you swallow so much sleep?
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
One of the best things about char-x is the fact that everyone runs char-y. Whenever I see a plain charizard, I automatically assume it is a char-y (to my fault). And the key resistances that char-x has to char-y's weaknesses really make it stand out. Unfortunately, char-x suffers from some "solo mon syndrome" as he simply offers damage and not very much team support. This would be as opposed to char-y's team-helping sun.
One of char-x's major talents is its ability to output crazy amounts of damage. This of course has the benefit of damage. But unfortunately, it also comes at the cost of flare blitz recoil, further making char-x difficult to use. I suppose you could run fire punch, but the shift from 120 base power to 75 base power is noticeable.
A few hints I have for newer users to differentiate between the two charizards would be this: Look at team preview and if you see pokemon to abuse sunlight in the form of chlorophyll, weakening of water attacks (passive sun abuse), moonlight abusers, or other ways to abuse sun- you can probably assume it is char-y. However, if the team looks fairly regular/goodstuffsy then it might be char-x. Most likely as kale mentioned above, you will see a char-x come out late game for a sweep. So if they are hiding their charizard throughout the game, you can have a good guess it is char-x seeing as char-y likes to immediately mega-evolve and give sun support.
(Quick note: Some char-y's don't immediately mega evolve in the matchup against rain. This is so they can change the weather on a politoed switchin. In the matchup vs rain, not immediately mega evolving charizard does not necessarily indicate char-x).
The rest of this is about char-y, because more common :>
One of the things about countering charizard-y is that the pokemon that attempts to counter char-y has to have a reasonable matchup against char-y's fren chlorophyll venusaur. For example: this makes the would-be check terrakion slightly less reliable because venusaur can outspeed terrakion and put it to sleep or outright kill it. Some of the better mons I have found to counter char-y (and by extension venu) would be rotom-h and goodra. The former can only be seriously dented by venu's poison attacks or venu's sleep powder. Many players circumvent being put to sleep by running safety goggles or lum on rotom-h. On top of that, rotom-h can threaten both out with its supereffective stab.
Goodra stops the two by resisting fire attacks and being immune to grass attacks (sleep powder I'm looking at you). It also has a monstrous spdef stat which allows it to eat up any poison hits from venu. From there, goodra can threaten both with supereffective hits from its spatk stat.
Unfortunately, running these two char-y (and venu) counters means that you cannot run rotom-w or other dragons (too many ice, fairy, dragon weaknesses). I guess this just speaks to the metagame shaping nature of char-y.

About BlankZero 's heatran, I find that it is not necessarily a surefire answer to char-y. This is because of the possibility of focus blast. Although I will not lie, I use fake out + sub tran (w/o ancientpower!!!) to stop char-y cuz I'm lazy :]

One of the fun tricks I have found in countering char is the water+ttar switch. How this works is you use a water pokemon as bait for a charizard solar beam. Then on the predicted solar beam, you switch into ttar. Your sand will make the charizard charge its solar beam, and also weaken the solar beam. After taking like 1 damage from a sand weakened solar beam, you can rock slide the char because it is forced to stay in and solar beam. Just a note, this tactic requires that they mega evolve on the water type. If your opp suspects this trick, they may save mega evolving one more turn so that they can solar beam ttar without repercussions. (remember, ttar switches in first, sand summons second, char mega evos third, sun summons fourth)

As for interesting char-y sets, I have experimented with overheat and tailwind as fourth moves (after heat wave, solar beam, protect). I find the former fun, as you can roast would-be checks. I also find it fun because the mon they are bringing in will most likely force you out anyways, so going to -2 dosen't matter since you are going to switch anyways. As for tailwind, it is cool but pretty lackluster. I never really felt that the extra speed helped. Perhaps it was because I used venu (*4 speed, gotta go fast) and was already fast or because just twind is bad on some mons ;].
Anyways, charizard is a cool pokemon with a lot of versatility that I don't use because it is inferior to mkanga :]]]]]]]]]
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Flash Fire Chandelure is a solid answer to Charizard Y - it feeds off of Charizard's Fire STAB, ignores Focus Blast, and shrugs off Solar Beams. Set up a sub, and it has nothing to fear from Venusaur either. This is why packing Ancient Power on Charizard Y can come in handy, because Chandelure can do some serious damage otherwise. I know Mizuhime pimped an Ancient Power Charizard Y before SPL. Or you can be like Arcticblast, and pair Charizard Y with Tyranitar, which resists both of Chandelure's STAB moves.

I like using Charizard Y for its ability to destroy annoying Rage Powder and Follow Me users Amoonguss and Jirachi :3 It pairs well with Sylveon, who appreciates Poison- and Steel-types gone to fire off Pixililate Hyper Voice unhindered. Charizard in turn appreciates Sylveon wiping off Dragons and Tyranitar off the field. This pair struggles with Heatran and Chandelure, so you would want something for them.

Speaking of Charizard Y counter, Braverius countered kom's Charizard Y's team with Charizard X, haha. That quad resist to Fire is beautiful <3 Ever since Zach swept kom with Charizard X (replay), I wanted to try the X factor out. Note that Zach used Roost > Protect, which can prevent recoil from killing it. I know koolkranny has also been taking names with his original Charizard X's team, too :d

I am surprised to learn that X's +0 Flare Blitz OHKOs Landorus-T... not even Kyurem-B's +0 Outrage boasts such output x_x. That's bat shit crazy!!!
 
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I'll agree with Pocket that Flash Fire Chandelure is a great counter to Mega-Charizard-Y due to the fact most players like to run the standard Heat Wave, Solarbeam, Focus Blast / Fire Blast and Protect moveset. However, I believe more people should run Hidden Power Ground on Charizard Y, allowing him to 2HKO Max HP Chandelure and Heatran (even with Shuca Berry) 100% of the time. I personally don't like using Focus Blast to counter Heatran because it can be unreliable with an accuracy of 70%. Besides, HP Ground is 4X super-effective against Heatran and allows Charizard Y to counter Chandelure effectively as opposed to Chandelure countering him.

I've also noticed an increase in the use of Choice Scarf Landorus-T in the Smogon Doubles metagame recently, decreasing the usage of Charizard Y. Likewise, I see the increase in the use of Charizard X as a result; I underestimated how powerful he can be after Dragon Dance, having the ability to absolutely decimate teams with STAB Flare Blitz. It has an amazing Fire/Dragon typing, only being weak to Dragon, Rock, and Ground-type moves. In my opinion, pairing Charizard X with a Water-type such as Keldeo makes Ground-types such as Lando-T and Rock-types such as Tyranitar a non-threat, with Charizard X taking care of most Dragon-types with STAB Dragon Claw. Although partnering an Amoonguss with Rage Powder or a Togekiss with Follow Me with Charizard X would also be extremely helpful in getting up a Dragon Dance or two for the purpose of sweeping the opponent.

Charizard is a very versatile Pokémon that can be utilized in many different ways; I'm interested to see the unique sets people come up with. :D
 
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Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
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Well Focus Blast hits more than just Heatran. Tyranitar is a pretty big target for Focus Blast as well. It also hits Kangaskhan and Kyurem harder than a spread Heat Wave (Modest Charizard has a good chance of scoring an OHKO on 4 SpD Kangaskhan). But yea, HP Ground is nice if you want to avoid problems with both Heatran and Chandelure (although it seems like more people are using Infiltrator more than Flash Fire now?)

Just like most set up sweeper, X certainly appreciates Fake Out support. Quick Guard is also a great utility for X, since priority may most likely be the only thing touching Charizard after a DD. Your Keldeo suggestion not only complements X's offenses well, but offer this Quick Guard :d
 

finally

how can you swallow so much sleep?
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
blahblahblah focus blast
trigger warning: i call char-y char
The point about focus blast missing is actually very important in heatran beating charizard. This is because Heatran can sub up through various means (primarily fake out support). And then from there, charizard is required to hit 2 focus blasts to kill heatran. This in itself is a 49% chance. On top of that, charizard has to avoid heatran's partner from doing something to it. Lastly, heatran can sub again, or just heat wave itself to do a casual 30%-40% because the sun is up. These three things in combination can be very difficult/dangerous for charizard, and it disincentivizes charizard from staying in and trying to kill heatran.
It leads to my point of how charizard-y oriented teams need a heatran counter, as char by himself is an extremely poor check. One of my personal favorite partners for this job is garchomp. Garchomp works well offensively with charizard because the two can spam heat wave and earthquake, a volatile combination that has few switchins. And the things that can switch in find it hard to retaliate back (for example, rotom-w can switch in while taking minimal damage from either heat wave or earthquake, but it can't outspeed charizard or garchomp from there. From there, it gets picked off by solar beam.) Defensively, the two compliment each other well. Garchomp can take potential rock hits for charizard, while charizard can take fairy hits for garchomp. Charizard can soak up will-o-wisps for chomp, while chomp soaks up electric attacks for charizard. Also, garchomp does a great job of eliminating terrakion and tyranitar. Terrakion will die to an eq, but ttar will most likely live. Thus it is recommended to run yache chomp in combination with charizard to help soak up potential ice beams from ttar (eq, soak up one ice beam, eq again to kill). As for beating heatran, let me just say one thing: eq kills through shuca.

Another fun heatran that partners well with charizard would be gastrodon. Slugmode and char have pretty good typing synergy. And slugmode has the added bonus of stopping rotom-w in its tracks (something that can plague sun teams). The one drawback of sluggy is its stats are pretty lackluster, and its water attacks are weakened in the sun. But if you ever need a rotom-w and heatran check for your sun team, look no farther than s/o tire.
Finally, Truce 's imprison lando-t is a really fun partner. Here's his description of it in combination with charizard (and also heatran): "Yup, an Imprison Landorus-T. I saw it got the move and wanted to see if I could make a team around it since I had so much success with an Imprison Musharna set on the cartridge. By blocking Earthquakes and Rock Slides, as well as Protect, Landorus-T acts as almost an ongoing Wide Guard / Feint. This lets Heatran and Charizard-Y sit around comfortably without fear of their 4x weaknesses and spam powerful Heat Waves." Here's his post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...mpetition-round-3-ensue.3494914/#post-5077937 if you are interested in reading about it in more detail.
tl;dr bring heatran destroyin buddies

Arcticblast edit: line breaks pls :<
 
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Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
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Strong point, and good suggestions, finally :) Not a big fan of Gastrodon, though. Unlike Garchomp, it's slow as shit, so it doesn't exactly pair well with Charizard Y (although I admit that it's a pretty decent pivot into Electric- and Rock-type moves). Rotom-W isn't that big of an issue for sun teams imo, which halve Rotom-W's main STAB with drought and usually pack a Grass-type that cockblocks Rotom-W.

Also
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 312-368 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

That's with the standard spread. Heatran holding a Shuca Berry is usually EVd to survive an Earthquake from Garchomp/Excadrill/Landorus-T (probably not Mega Chomp). To be fair, though, that much damage is essentially a kill.
 
I have been using this set in conjunction with any intimidator (usually landorus) and its been doing amazing.

Charizard @ Charzardite Y
Bold
Protect|Roost|Heat Wave|WoW
Evs: 150 HP/ 252 Def/ 108 Speed


The evs allow him to outspeed base 70s mainly breloom. The defense and HP ensure rock slides won't kill him after the partner intimidate. The point of this set is catches people off guard, allows me to bypass sucker punch and kings shield, survive hits, and still deal damage. Losing the grass coverage he has with solarbeam is a good trade off as having venusaur in the back mitigates the loss. Again this is just a personal preference set.
 
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So I'd like to get discussion flowing smoothly again. Recently I have been using some different Charizard X sets and I'll share the results.

Dragon Dance: This set is probably the best set Charizard X an offer. Since it has been covered I'll just say that Attack and Speed boosts and almost perfect neatral coverage with Tough Claws mkes it extremely dangerous.

Swords Dance: This set trades speed for even more power. Despite needing more team support, when this thing is set up it's gg. It has the standard set (SD>DD of course.) This is a little less reliable in terms of win condition. Heavy Support is needed. I had to use Fake Out, Follow Me, and Tailwind to succeed. It's well worth it if you have enough team slots.

WoW: This takes a different appoach to Charizard W. Defensive X works really well in this meta; it beats Thundy, Cress, Zard Y and more. This is a supporter rather than a sweeper, and it's a great asset to have. Wow takes care of most phsical attackers, it canRoost off damage, and still have power with Dragon Claw.

I know that some stuff may be wrong so correct me if I'm wrong.
Which set is your favorite?
 
One thing i've noted that Charizard Y , sometimes does well with Chlorophyll users such as Venusaur and Shrifty.

With Double Speed from the sun, and maybe stab insta solar beam (Depends on set used), Sun is a good assist to Chlorophyll users.
 
One thing i've noted that Charizard Y , sometimes does well with Chlorophyll users such as Venusaur and Shrifty.

With Double Speed from the sun, and maybe stab insta solar beam (Depends on set used), Sun is a good assist to Chlorophyll users.
Yes venusaur is the most commonly used partner due to its access to blazing fast sleep powders, which can really aid zard y in doing as much damage as possible to the opposing team.
 
(I'm new do don't mind a 2016 post)
I run mega YCharizard when playing pokemon like politoad with the ability drizzle.I will be able to cancle the drizzle and use someone like zapdos to take out politoad.
Moveset would be
Heatwave/Flamethrower/fireblast
Solar beam
Dragon claw
Focusblast/roost
 
(I'm new do don't mind a 2016 post)
I run mega YCharizard when playing pokemon like politoad with the ability drizzle.I will be able to cancle the drizzle and use someone like zapdos to take out politoad.
Moveset would be
Heatwave/Flamethrower/fireblast
Solar beam
Dragon claw
Focusblast/roost
dragon claw is physical, you should use only special attacks on charY
 
I tried some HP Ground sets lately, turned out they're pretty underwhelming for two reasons:
1. you don't hit anything but Heatran with it. While Heatran is always a threat and you don't want it to just get up a free Sub, you still end up having a move hitting 0 or, at maximum, 1 Pokemon from the opposing team. You should run enough ways to deal with Heatran in a sun team anyway so running a move that, at worst, is an absolute waste, rarely pays off.
2. some may say there aren't any better options anyway since you have your fire & grass-coverage covered in just two slots. While that's true, remember that Heat Wave is a bitch. Also remember it's your main way of dealing damage. With that in mind, think of all the times Heat Wave missed an important target. The chance of missing at least one of your opponents Pokemon is higher than you probably think and you can't choose which one you'd like to hit should it come to it. Running Flamethrower or Overheat on the fourth slot has two merits: you don't miss (as often as Heat Wave in case of Overheat) and it's way stronger. These moves are perfect for situations in which you're not allowed to miss on one opposing Pokemon while the other is covered by your partner / doesn't threaten Chari / is most likely to Protect or switch etc. This happens a lot of times actually. While clicking Heat Wave might also hit and kills a 'mon, you have a safety option to not lose momentum in case it misses. You also have a more powerful move to OHKO threats living Heat Wave (thinking of Lando for example). Running Overheat isn't exactly way safer than Heat Wave but a lot stronger allowing you to OHKO Kanga and basically everything you want.

In my eyes a second Fire-STAB pays off a lot more times than HP Ground or Focus Blast (for explanation see finallys post).
 

13ulbasaur

* It seems to be nervous about fighting.
is an Artist Alumnus
you don't miss (as often as Heat Wave in case of Overheat)
I agree with everything but I just wanted to correct this statement, Overheat and Heat Wave have the same accuracy of 90%, so they both are just as dangerous in that sense. Hence why I run Flamethrower sometimes.
 
I didn't mean to say Overheat is more accurate, it's just more propabal to hit the opposing Pokemon you want to it if you just need or want to hit one of them. You mainly use it for increased damage outpot tho, so you're right with what you said.
 

13ulbasaur

* It seems to be nervous about fighting.
is an Artist Alumnus
I didn't mean to say Overheat is more accurate, it's just more propabal to hit the opposing Pokemon you want to it if you just need or want to hit one of them. You mainly use it for increased damage outpot tho, so you're right with what you said.
Makes sense, my bad for misunderstanding!
 

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