CAP Updates: Voodoom Discussion (Complete)

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reachzero

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I personally wouldn't mind soundproof. While competitive, it's certainly not overbearing or problematic.
 

snake

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Alright here's the slate.

Competitive
Soundproof
Cursed Body
No Change


Competitive, while potentially powerful, has so few opportunities to be activated. Landorus-T and Gyarados aren't the best switch-ins to Voodoom to begin with, and Defog isn't as common as it is elsewhere due to the amount of Rapid Spinners we have.

Soundproof gives Voodoom some niche immunities that don't affect its performance too much.

Cursed Body is more flavorful, but it could come in handy when you least expect it.

Of course, No Change is a definite option that you should consider before voting, even if there are three abilities for change.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-updates-voodoom-poll-2.3598757/
 
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snake

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Cursed body has won the poll! We now move onto Moveset submissions.

This discussion will be much stricter than ability discussions. Please try not to make short posts that do not contribute that much to discussion.

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfil CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.
New moves must be brought up using this format and have thorough explanations and must have calcs to back up your claims. If you don't have correct, accurate, relevant calcs that match up with your set submission, I will be less inclined to take your post seriously. Coverage moves can be very dangerous, especially on a Voodoom, who already has good coverage between its STAB moves and Psychic. Please explain every move thoroughly, even ones that Voodoom already has. It hasn't had a chance to abuse +2 boosts for a while now, so seeing what each set does (with Life Orb, with a Z Crystal, or whichever item you choose). If you need some reference for good posts, please look at Kerfluffle's moveset submission thread.

There has been previous discussion on the following moves. I'd like to kick off discussion talking about these moves first because these are the most controversial.

Controversial Movesets:

Name: Bad 'n' Boosted
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Dark Pulse
Move 4: Thunderbolt / Flash Cannon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Blacklist: Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
 
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Thunderbolt would allow for Voodoom to have a way to deal with bulky water types, and in terms of the three most used flying-types, two are immune to Thunderbolt (Lando-T and Cawmodore) and the third is already hit by Psychic coverage. (Tomohawk) Therefor, I think it is safe to add Thunderbolt as a coverage move since it doesn't seem to affect any of its checks/counters too much or at all.
 

snake

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Thunderbolt would allow for Voodoom to have a way to deal with bulky water types, and in terms of the three most used flying-types, two are immune to Thunderbolt (Lando-T and Cawmodore) and the third is already hit by Psychic coverage. (Tomohawk) Therefor, I think it is safe to add Thunderbolt as a coverage move since it doesn't seem to affect any of its checks/counters too much or at all.
I guess I didn't make this entirely clear, but you need to have a Voodoom moveset with Thunderbolt in it and provide calcs supporting your claim.
 
Cursed body has won the poll! We now move onto Moveset submissions.

This discussion will be much stricter than ability discussions. Please try not to make short posts that do not contribute that much to discussion.

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfil CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.
New moves must be brought up using this format and have thorough explanations and must have calcs to back up your claims. If you don't have correct, accurate, relevant calcs that match up with your set submission, I will be less inclined to take your post seriously. Coverage moves can be very dangerous, especially on a Voodoom, who already has good coverage between its STAB moves and Psychic. Please explain every move thoroughly, even ones that Voodoom already has. It hasn't had a chance to abuse +2 boosts for a while now, so seeing what each set does (with Life Orb, with a Z Crystal, or whichever item you choose). If you need some reference for good posts, please look at Kerfluffle's moveset submission thread.

There has been previous discussion on the following moves. I'd like to kick off discussion talking about these moves first because these are the most controversial.

Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
Thunderbolt
Flash Cannon

Blacklist:
Is the winning move set going to become the analysis of Voodoom on Smogon University?
 

snake

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Is the winning move set going to become the analysis of Voodoom on Smogon University?
No. There's a reason why this is a discussion and not submissions. The purpose of this phase of the process is to use movesets to determine what moves Voodoom needs. If you can't fit it into a good moveset, there's probably something wrong. Writing analyses is a completely different thing from the CAP Process and CAP Updates.

If you have further questions about process or anything not related to Voodoom, please don't clutter this thread with them. You can PM me, VM me, or find me on PS! if you need.
 

Deck Knight

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Time to get this rolling with two set submissions that work in tandem. One is covered ground, one is out of the blue:

Name: Plotting Doom
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Sludge Bomb / Thunderbolt
Move 4: Psychic
Ability: Lightning Rod
Item: Life Orb / Psychium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Nasty Plot gives Voodoom a huge boost in SpA that lets it overcome many threats.
  • Focus Blast's raw power is worth the price in accuracy, as it steamrolls many metagame threats at +1 or +2.
  • Sludge Bomb along with Life Orb allows Voodoom to power through opposing Fairy types like Clefable, even through Unaware. Thunderbolt is useful specifically against Tapu Fini (which is the bulkiest Tapu) and also nails Arghonaut, Naviathan, Slowbro, and other bulky waters.
  • Psychic allows Voodoom to break past Tomohawk, SpD Mollux, and Mega Venusaur.
  • Max SpA and Spe because offensive mon.

VS. Tapus:
[Note: Tapu Koko's standard set does not currently run Dazzling Gleam, making it susceptible to Voodoom.]
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 390-460 (138.7 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 315-372 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 159-187 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 229-270 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 463-546 (164.1 - 193.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 279-329 (99.2 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 278-330 (98.9 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vs. Other threats / in other scenarios:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 305-360 (100.6 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO [Lightning Rod boost from Volt Switch]
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 179-213 (45.4 - 54%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 394-464 (95.1 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not much to say here. If you want Voodoom to beat Clefable, Sludge Bomb / Wave is basically it. Flash Cannon can't hit the 54% without Modest.

Second Set:

Name: Power Trippin'
Move 1: Hold Hands
Move 2: Power Trip
Move 3: Earthquake / Gunk Shot
Move 4: Bulk Up
Ability: Lightning Rod / Cursed Body
Item: Normalium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

  • Z-Hold Hands raises all stats, allowing Voodoom to outrun Scarfed Lele and friends.
  • Power Trip is the main selling point of this set, turning Voodoom into a potent physical attacker with 120 BP (or 140 if you pick up a Lightning Rod boost) Dark STAB.
  • Earthquake OHKOs Tapu Koko, Mollux, Plasmanta, Naviathan, Crucibelle, and a number of other common threats as well as being good general coverage with Power Trip. Gunk Shot specifically targets the Tapus.
  • Focus Blast is the natural choice for raw power at +1, and can even OHKO Rotom-W if a Lightning Rod boost precedes it. Voodoom is unlikely to be targeted by Will-O-Wisp because of the strength of the NP set.
  • Alternatively, this set struggles if it loses the +1 Attack, so Bulk Up restores it after Intimidate and allows Power Trip to OHKO Offensive Lando-T before it can Supersonic Skystrike.
  • Cursed Body does not assist in buffing Power Trip like Lightning Rod may occasionally do, however at +1/+1 Bulk Voodoom can withstand and potentially disable neutral hits, allowing it to futher set up Bulk Up or attack.
  • The key element to this set is surprise - its checks and counters are so vastly different from the NP set that it gets a chance to either immediately damage the would-be NP Set Counter or to set up again as the opponent switches. It's horrible against Unaware Pokemon and Tomohawk, but flattens a lot of other counterplay. If opponents get caught off guard and allow Voodoom to set up a Hold Hands and a Bulk Up, in many cases it's game over.

[If only you could Baton Pass other boosts with Speed]

Jolly Calcs:
+1 252 Atk Voodoom Power Trip (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Voodoom Power Trip (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 279-328 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Voodoom Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 338-398 (120.2 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Voodoom Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Voodoom Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 424-500 (161.8 - 190.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Voodoom Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 222-262 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Voodoom Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 294-348 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Voodoom Power Trip (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 135-159 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock [Landorus switches in to revenge]
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 157-186 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO [Only Flyinium-Z Landorus contests Voodoom here. At +1 Def Voodoom is too far gone for Landorus to catch up.]

+1 252 Atk Voodoom Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 280-330 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock [You anticipate Landorus Switch and Bulk Up as it comes in]

These two sets work together because they have entirely different checks and counters. Arghonaut, Tomohawk, and Clefable are given trouble by the Nasty Plot set, while Tapu Lele and Scarf Plasmanta find out they aren't going to outrun Voodoom, or else their dedicated special wall realizes Voodoom will get out of hand very quickly. The Power Trip set requires an immediate and effective response to counteract (again, outside Unaware Mons and Hawk), as it turns out Voodoom can be just as scary at +2 Attack as it is at +2 SpA.

Why Z-Hold Hands instead of Z-Celebrate? Well, a Perfect Mate would Hold Hands, wouldn't they?
 
Name: Master Plan
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Dark Pulse
Move 3: Focus Blast/Aura Sphere/Vacuum Wave
Move 4: Psychic/Thunderbolt
Ability: Lightning Rod
Item: Life Orb/Psychium-Z
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe / 4 SpDef
Nature: Timid
  • Nasty Plot allows Voodoom to get to +2 faster than ever before, solidifying its new role as a setup sweeper.
  • Dark Pulse is Voodoom's main Dark STAB move. With its disguise broken, Dark Pulse will OHKO Mimikyu.
  • Focus Blast is Voodoom's main Fighting STAB move, and if it lands, Life Orb will allow it to OHKO 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp. If you're worried about missing, Aura Sphere is another option, but it will 2HKO instead. If you just need priority instead, then Vacuum wave works well, but you really sacrifice power for priority.
  • Psychic is the go-to coverage move for Voodoom. It allows for it to deal with other Fighting types that outspeed, like Scarf Keldeo. It also can handle one of the main counters to this set: HazeHawk, with the help of Shattered Psyche. It also has a small chance to take down 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable in Psychic Terrain and a critical hit.
  • Thunderbolt can be used over Psychic to handle Flying types, but relevant Flying types are either immune to Thunderbolt (Lando-T and Caw) or is already countered by Psychic (Tomohawk).
  • Life Orb gives extra damage overall at the cost of recoil, while Psychium-Z gives Doom a chance to counter HazeHawk and Clefable.
  • Lightning Rod allows it to predict electric moves to switch in and get a boost.
CALCS:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 503-593 (120.6 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 387-456 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 281-331 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Aura Sphere vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 335-395 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 512-603 (123.6 - 145.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable in Psychic Terrain on a critical hit: 391-461 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
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Moveset Submission

Less slashes now

Name: fast wallbreaker
Move 1: focus blast
Move 2: Dark pulse
Move 3: Nasty plot
Move 4: thunderbolt/freeze dry
Ability: lightning rod
Item: fightinium z
EVs: 252 spa/ 252 spe / 4 def
Nature: Timid/modest

  • lightning rod is just handy and allows it to get a boost,
  • thunderbolt is to get tomohawk and the like
  • freeze dry just gets more coverage, just less power and gets things like fini, bulu and quaggy
  • dark pulse to hit things like mega sableye and lele specs
  • fightinium z to ohko walls after a 2+ boost and guarantees it not to miss
Calcs i guess (wip)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 208-247 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 710-837 (110.5 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Deck Knight

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And then they switch in Magearna or Mawile and Voodoom with Gunk Shot comes to an untimely end, though not without taking a fair piece out of them. Earthquake handles them much better, but the nature of the set is you get Dark + one coverage move. You could go for both but you become very susceptible to Landorus-T (the non-Flyinium-Z versions.)

Do realize you just called a monster sweeper something with a Base 85 Attack stat and no boosts other than +1 or +2 Attack. Additionally Voodoom is still donked by Fairy moves and Clefable specifically because you cannot assume your opponent always switches into your best coverage option against them.

To be clear, the set is not a gimmick and it seriously punishes opponents that switch in expecting NP Doom. But the epic one-shotter of all teams it is not, especially not if it opts for Dark/Poison coverage over Dark/Ground.

In short, cool your jets and throttle way back on the exaggerations.
 
And then they switch in Magearna or Mawile and Voodoom with Gunk Shot comes to an untimely end, though not without taking a fair piece out of them. Earthquake handles them much better, but the nature of the set is you get Dark + one coverage move. You could go for both but you become very susceptible to Landorus-T (the non-Flyinium-Z versions.)

Do realize you just called a monster sweeper something with a Base 85 Attack stat and no boosts other than +1 or +2 Attack. Additionally Voodoom is still donked by Fairy moves and Clefable specifically because you cannot assume your opponent always switches into your best coverage option against them.

To be clear, the set is not a gimmick and it seriously punishes opponents that switch in expecting NP Doom. But the epic one-shotter of all teams it is not, especially not if it opts for Dark/Poison coverage over Dark/Ground.

In short, cool your jets and throttle way back on the exaggerations.
You're forgetting that it has +1 in all stats due to Z-Hold Hands. However, reading your post, I have a better, more balanced version in mind for Physical Doom.
 

snake

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You're forgetting that it has +1 in all stats due to Z-Hold Hands. However, reading your post, I have a better, more balanced version in mind for Physical Doom.
I believe what DK meant by other boosts are ability boosts and boosting items (Normalium Z doesn't give a boost). That said, I'd still like to see more discussion on this set because frankly it is quite out of the blue...(wait DK's name on PS! is blue...)
 
I believe what DK meant by other boosts are ability boosts and boosting items (Normalium Z doesn't give a boost). That said, I'd still like to see more discussion on this set because frankly it is quite out of the blue...(wait DK's name on PS! is blue...)
The main things I am concerned with is Z-Hold Hands and Gunk Shot. A boost in all stats is a little much, as well as the fact that it's a 100% accurate 120 BP move. Gunk shot is worrying as it is the most powerful Physical Poison move. If the boosts made it so that Power Trip was 80 BP, and Gunk Shot was replaced with Cross Poison, I'd be all for it.
 

Deck Knight

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The main things I am concerned with is Z-Hold Hands and Gunk Shot. A boost in all stats is a little much, as well as the fact that it's a 100% accurate 120 BP move. Gunk shot is worrying as it is the most powerful Physical Poison move. If the boosts made it so that Power Trip was 80 BP, and Gunk Shot was replaced with Cross Poison, I'd be all for it.
Cross Poison and Poison Jab are both too weak to accomplish the purpose if the set, which is sweeping.

You keep focusing on +1 boosts as if they are an absolute benefit and not what they actually are, which is a relative benefit.

Voodoom's Attack and Defenses are mediocre, even below average for most purposes. Power Trip only works because strong physical Dark attacks are a rarity, and as a result not often prepared for. In fact, +1 Voodoom's 120 BP Power Trip is around the same power as Tyranitar's Max Attack + Nature Choice Band Crunch (including Max EV investments). The difference being of course the turn of set up, though you could sub Choice Band in that calc for +1 Dragon Dance Tyranitar.

Similarly, at +1 each and no investment Voodooms defenses rise from passable enough to get a boost to something that takes Super-Effective hits to overcome, but Voodoom has an exploitable 4x weakness that comes into play.

Long story short even after Z-Hold Hands, Voodoom is roughly at parity with other Z-Move users you would put on your team, which is about where it should be to compete for the slot.

Now earlier I mentioned how strong Power Trip is, but that's a function of Base Power and STAB. Gunk Shot doesn't have STAB, and as I stated Voodoom at +1 is roughly as strong as Tyranitar without a boosting item. Because it doesn't have that item boost, it really needs as much Base Power as it can get on its coverage moves. It's shooting for 2HKOs without additional boosts, not OHKOs. Clefable still revenges it effortlessly.
 
Cross Poison and Poison Jab are both too weak to accomplish the purpose if the set, which is sweeping.

You keep focusing on +1 boosts as if they are an absolute benefit and not what they actually are, which is a relative benefit.

Voodoom's Attack and Defenses are mediocre, even below average for most purposes. Power Trip only works because strong physical Dark attacks are a rarity, and as a result not often prepared for. In fact, +1 Voodoom's 120 BP Power Trip is around the same power as Tyranitar's Max Attack + Nature Choice Band Crunch (including Max EV investments). The difference being of course the turn of set up, though you could sub Choice Band in that calc for +1 Dragon Dance Tyranitar.

Similarly, at +1 each and no investment Voodooms defenses rise from passable enough to get a boost to something that takes Super-Effective hits to overcome, but Voodoom has an exploitable 4x weakness that comes into play.

Long story short even after Z-Hold Hands, Voodoom is roughly at parity with other Z-Move users you would put on your team, which is about where it should be to compete for the slot.

Now earlier I mentioned how strong Power Trip is, but that's a function of Base Power and STAB. Gunk Shot doesn't have STAB, and as I stated Voodoom at +1 is roughly as strong as Tyranitar without a boosting item. Because it doesn't have that item boost, it really needs as much Base Power as it can get on its coverage moves. It's shooting for 2HKOs without additional boosts, not OHKOs. Clefable still revenges it effortlessly.
Alrighty, then I'm in favor of the set now. Thanks for explaining it to me. Sorry that you had to explain to me about it at all....
 
I'm not sold that the Hold Hands set is good for Voodoom, because it still has all of its other sets. Its Special set isn't any less viable, and Z-Hold Hands and Power Trip also greatly boost the effectiveness of its mixed set, with the potential for lures. Add them all together, and it seems like playing against Voodoom will turn into the dreaded guessing game where you have to figure out its set, and if you guess wrong, you get swept. I don't know if it's necessarily broken, but it doesn't sound like the sort of direction Voodoom ought to head in. After all, we already have a CAP that boosts on both sides in Naviathan, who is also receiving a competitive upgrade.
 
Okay... since the Z-Hold Hands set is receiving the most discussion, I have some questions. Deck Knight, regarding this set, why exactly is it necessary to create an entirely separate niche for Voodoom from what we've established so far? I can appreciate the work that went into explaining what the set does and what it targets, but I'm having a hard time seeing any foundation for adding moves and boosting options that encourage using Voodoom as a physical attacker. Why does it benefit the metagame to turn Voodoom into a multi-booster?
 

Deck Knight

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Okay... since the Z-Hold Hands set is receiving the most discussion, I have some questions. Deck Knight, regarding this set, why exactly is it necessary to create an entirely separate niche for Voodoom from what we've established so far? I can appreciate the work that went into explaining what the set does and what it targets, but I'm having a hard time seeing any foundation for adding moves and boosting options that encourage using Voodoom as a physical attacker. Why does it benefit the metagame to turn Voodoom into a multi-booster?
Well, nothing is every truly "necessary" - however a couple of things stand out to me:

1. Physical boosting Voodoom was an infinitely harder sell earlier in the thread, to the point people believed "physical Voodoom can never work." Well, it can provided it breaks expectations, and the only way it does that is to flip the script from a strong and equally viable special set.

2. Historically, Voodoom was always designed to have a physical option, and specifically to Baton Pass Bulk Up, a physical attribute boosting move. While originally designed to partner with Togekiss, Zapdos utilzed it much better and also passed back Agility to Voodoom, back when Baton Pass chains were legal. They aren't any more, but the effect of Z-Hold Hands mirrors a completed chain quite well in spirit.

3. Going back to CAP Principles, I imagine it appears very curious given our principles about being conservative with these updates that I would be promoting such a set. This set has been intriguing me for a few weeks now before posting it because it does something that the CAP Project has been (in)famous for, which is bringing the best out of obscure mechanics and gameplay and having it impact a metagame at a competitive level. If we were to go about making "Ultimate Power Trip Mon," it would probably look surprisingly like Voodoom. It has a great speed tier, its Attack is not so high as to be unbalanced after a boost, it has STAB and a Second typing that provides generally good coverage, limited negative interactions with priority, as well as Stealth Rock resistance.

Simply put, Z-Hold Hands + Power Trip is a uniquely Gen 7 Strategy that Voodoom is by sheer happenstance nearly perfect to execute in a balanced way. It makes the particular CAP unique as well as shedding light on game mechanics of less well known moves, which I think is beneficial to the project generally.

I do not think it's possible to quantify how the metagame benefits from Voodoom being a threat with equal potential to use strong Dark Physical attacks or strong Fighting Special Attacks, except to say that its a duality that is rarely executed well in a balanced way (Think Gen 4 MixMence as an unbalanced example in that meta), and Voodoom achieves that.
 
I can actually get behind Power Trip Voodoom. It plays to many of Voodoom's strengths (great physical movepool, good speed tier, good offensive typing), moves Voodoom back towards it's original game plan (get a bunch of stat boosts piled on top of it), and gives Voodoom a niche that is both strong and fun.
 

snake

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I'd like to put discussion on Power Trip Voodoom on hold for now. It's a cool set, but I'd like to assess whether we should consider including these moves after we figure out Voodoom's special attacking coverage.

I've seen a lot of controversy over Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, and especially over Sludge Wave on PS! and earlier on in the thread. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about these three moves only (in moveset form of course). Calcs fir and references to relevant targets greatly improve the quality of your posts and your arguments for or against any of these coverage moves.
 
This is not actually in support of this set, but to show the absurdity of sludge wave

Name: Way Past Cool
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Dark Pulse
Move 4: Sludge Wave
Ability: Lightning Rod
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Nasty Plot and two very powerful stab options, dark and fighting
  • Sludge wave hits its threat, in fairy types, and hits many pokemon for a 2hko that would otherwise check Voodoom
  • Sludge wave makes many options obsolete, such as Psychic. (Why OHKO specific threats, when you can 2hko the meta?)
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 220-259 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 278-328 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 166-198 (48.3 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 212-251 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 195-230 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


The combination of those 3 moves, with the option to Nasty Plot, is just far too strong. Looking through the tier its tough to find a pokemon that can deal with the sludge wave menace. Psychic in conjunction with Dark Pulse and Focus Blast would be fine, as there would be more checks. However, Psychic is outclassed by being able to net more 2hkos with Sludge Wave. Moral of the story, poison coverage is bad news bears.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I prefer to read more comments about these moves before to give my final opinions, but I want also to share my ideas at the moment:

-Sludge Bomb/Wave hits all the Fairy types that are not Mawile or Magerna, blocking them to countering it. Also:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 261-308 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 230-270 (87.1 - 102.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-Thunderbolt may be a good move, but I don't like the fact that hits Tapu Fini and Tomohawk at the same time:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 315-372 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Flash Cannon can be a good (but not op) move because it doesn't hit all the fairies:

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 125-147 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (paradoxically is less than Focus Blast)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 139-165 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (still less than Focus Blast)
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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Name: Bad 'n' Boosted
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Dark Pulse
Move 4: Thunderbolt / Flash Cannon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Personally, I think the addition of Sludge Wave might unbalance what Voodoom effectively checks and what checks it. it can simply run FBlast, Psychic and Sludge wave and hits almost everything super effectively.

  • Nasty plot boosts the power of Voodoom to very threatening levels.
  • Focus Blast is Voodoom's hardest hitting STAB attack, doing serious damage to anything that doesn't resist it at +2, albeit with shaky accuracy.
  • Dark Pulse is Voodoom's secondary STAB and has good neutral and supereffective coverage with Focus Blast. Its nice 20% flinch chance can also come in handy.
  • The choice between Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon is an important one, as each allows it to beat specific pokemon that may otherwise beat it.
Thunderbolt notably hits:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 315-372 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 88 SpD Arghonaut: 203-239 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (requires wear and tear to cleanly win)

Flash Cannon notably hits:
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Obviously beats Magic guard variants better)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 408-481 (145.1 - 171.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 346-408 (123.1 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tapu Koko is completely countered if lacking Dazzling Gleam (which most lack), and interestingly enough, its Focus Blast hits Koko considerably harder than its Flash Cannon.

Name: Pass the Plate (NastyPass)
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Focus Blast
Move 3: Baton Pass
Move 4: Thunderbolt / Substitute
Ability: Lightning Rod
Item: Life Orb / Fightinium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This set is designed not to be a wallbreaker, but more as an offensive supporter of sorts, which baton passes boosts to sweepers on the team so they can clean up.

  • Nasty Plot is standard on this set, which allows Voodoom to not only hit hard enough to threaten most teams, but be able to pass these boosts to mons to clean up the opposing team.
  • Focus Blast is the main (or only) attack on this set, and is Voodoom's hardest hitting option.
  • Baton Pass is the crux of this set, allowing voodoom to pass boosts to team mates. It also is a means to pivoting out on mons that threaten Voodoom.
  • The choice between Thunderbolt and Substitute is based on preference - Thunderbolt allows Voodoom to hit most mons that resist Focus Blast for good neutral damage, while Substitute allows voodoom to beat defensive teams easier and doubles as a means to bring in teammates safely.
 
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