CAP Updates: Revenankh Discussion (Complete)

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Ok I'm definitely against sword dance. Boosting that quickly would make bulk up irrelevant on offensive sets, especially with a triage boost.

What I do support is shadow's bones it'll probably be distributed everywhere next gen (i mean, look how many people got aura sphere). It can't kill lele before it dies to psyshock, and the only time it might kill mega meta is if it's CB or sets up a few bulk ups, which it can already do with shadow punch.

Oh and fuck gunk shot

Oh and will o wisp should definitely be inside revvenakh somewhere.
 

Quanyails

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I'm with Jas when it comes to not allowing Shadow Bone. I see a lot of support but not much reason besides "more power doesn't hurt" and "why not". These reasons don't strike me as conservative.

I'm not the topic leader, but I'd like to frame the question this way: How would Shadow Bone make the CAP metagame healthier?
 

Deck Knight

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A few edits before we wrap up:

Praise lord helix.

Revenankh @ Ghostium Z
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Ability: Shed Skin / Triage
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Phantom Force
- Drain Punch Close Combat
- Ice Punch / Gunk Shot / Moonlight

Offensive Bulk Up set feat. Ghostium Z boosted Phantom Force. The boosted attack allows it to break past threats with its STAB alone. Gunk Shot is also added to beat Fairies, if needed. Otherwise run Moonlight to keep up its HP.

+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Tapu Fini: 265-313 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

More defensive sets later.
The reason for this edit is that after a Bulk Up, Close Combat and Never-Ending Nightmare do immense damage to nearly everything in the metagame. Ice Punch is still useful in the fourth slot as it adds good coverage for Lando-T, and if you aren't running moves that benefit from Triage, Shed Skin's ability to heal off burns and toxic are preferable. If running Moonlight, go for Triage as the priority healing can make Revenankh incredibly difficult to take down after two defense boosts from Bulk Up.

Chansey (OU Utility)+1 Close Combat114.3 - 134.8%guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn (OU Utility)+1 Close Combat105.6 - 125%guaranteed OHKO

Heatran (OU Bulky)+1 Close Combat136.7 - 161.6%guaranteed OHKO

Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive)+1 Close Combat47.6 - 55.9%25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive)+1 Never-Ending Nightmare68.5 - 81.1%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Venusaur-Mega (OU Defensive Tank)+1 Never-Ending Nightmare74.3 - 87.7%guaranteed 2HKO

Basically, Revenankh can set up on nearly anything passive and has very, very few defensive answers. Close Combat's Defense drops mean you have to hit and run a lot, but if you run Triage Moonlight Rev can find many more opportunities to switch back in and heal up before boosting again, or otherwise just use the high base powers of CC and Phantom Force (after-Z) to hit targets. Don't underestimate Phantom Force's damage output either. So few things actually resist Ghost that Rev can power right through more than you'd think.
 
Revenankh @ Ghostium Z
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Ability: Shed Skin / Triage
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Phantom Force
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Ice Punch / Moonlight

Ngl, this is a variation of the set by G-Luke. The only real change I made is I added Drain Punch as an option on the set. This way, you can choose between priority healing and power with Drain Punch and Close Combat respectively. The only other thing I did was to remove Gunk Shot.
 
I left this a little longer than I wanted, but I haven't had the chance to talk again about Recover, specifically about what snake said last week:
I'd also like to question the Recover suggestions (and other similar moves) I've seen in the thread. Revenankh already has Moonlight. Is there a clear reason why we need to give Revenankh a move with more PP than just to let it have more times to click it?

Basically, I'm all for Triage Revenankh, but we don't have to give it a ton of healing moves because it got Triage. Let's focus on improving what Revenankh does (eastablished metagame role), not giving it tangential niches.
Giving Revenankh Recover would do exactly what you said yourself: 'focus on improving what Revenankh does'. First and foremost, it would allow Revenankh to set up much easier, something that I think it would struggle to do in the current metagame. Many more passive Pokemon that you would imagine Revenankh could sit in front of often carry either status or phazing - for example Skarmory - or have a chance to burn it with Lava Plume - like Mollux or Pyroak. Also, in my opinion, a Revenankh without more consistent recovery would find it extremely difficult to set up against more offensive teams, the sort of teams that Triage Drain Punch was supposed to improve its matchup against. Though Revenankh has a great offensive typing, it lacks resistances that give it set up opportunities. This means that it can be forced to take somewhat strong neutral hits in the process. Without the means of recovering off this damage enough times to get significant boosts (which could be many times if a move comes close to 2HKOing it) Revenankh will never be able to hold its own against less passive teams. I was looking at Clefable's XY analysis, and it says that 'Moonlight has fewer PP and is less effective under most weather conditions, which is a major drawback' when talking about its Unaware CM set. This is easily applied to Revenankh, given that they are both bulky boosters. Moonlight is simply not good enough, and giving Revenankh 'a move with more PP than [Moonlight] just to let it have more times to click it' would give it much more time to set up.
Overall, I think I just wanted to affirm that giving Revenankh Recover is not for the sake of abusing Triage nor giving it 'tangential niches', but in fact is trying to improve the very set that we set out to improve: Bulk Up.
 

Deck Knight

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My issue with Recover is that for all the talk about Triage Drain Punch, the "Big Dog" of Triage right now is definitely Moonlight. +3 50% Recovery is a big deal, especially since the only other move that competes with it in that priority bracket is Fake Out, and only Mega Lopunny can hit Rev with that move (and M-Lop isn't re-released yet so...)

So Recover's reliability, splashability, and additional PP therefore makes it really, really strong. There is almost no reason not to run Recover on any set you can get away with, especially since Ghost + Fighting is perfect neutral coverage in itself. Recover basically makes Shed Skin a nullity because there's no reason not to run Triage Recover. Whereas Triage Moonlight isn't something you'd put on a team with Sand or Rain Pokemon, and the low PP means you need to be conservative with how you use it. 8PP is definitely enough to break through and win games, 16 is blatant overkill. Much as Bulk Up is a decent move for Revenankh, Triage Recover is useful on every set (except CB I guess, but even then just having Rev stall out Stone Edges and other low PP moves and still keep going has applications.)
 
My issue with Recover is that for all the talk about Triage Drain Punch, the "Big Dog" of Triage right now is definitely Moonlight. +3 50% Recovery is a big deal, especially since the only other move that competes with it in that priority bracket is Fake Out, and only Mega Lopunny can hit Rev with that move (and M-Lop isn't re-released yet so...)

So Recover's reliability, splashability, and additional PP therefore makes it really, really strong. There is almost no reason not to run Recover on any set you can get away with, especially since Ghost + Fighting is perfect neutral coverage in itself. Recover basically makes Shed Skin a nullity because there's no reason not to run Triage Recover. Whereas Triage Moonlight isn't something you'd put on a team with Sand or Rain Pokemon, and the low PP means you need to be conservative with how you use it. 8PP is definitely enough to break through and win games, 16 is blatant overkill. Much as Bulk Up is a decent move for Revenankh, Triage Recover is useful on every set (except CB I guess, but even then just having Rev stall out Stone Edges and other low PP moves and still keep going has applications.)
I think that if you are suggesting all sets would run Recover, surely the same would be true for Moonlight? I don't think that the extra PP would matter on offensive sets since they have far fewer chances to Recover - it can really drain your momentum if you spend a turn recovering instead of attacking. Recovering is also less useful since sets without bulk are more easily 2HKO'd - and OHKO'd - meaning that they can recover in front of less of the metagame. I don't think that a poorer matchup against relatively rare weather teams will keep Moonlight off of a set that would've ran Recover. This is, of course, assuming Revenankh runs recovery over Bulk Up or a coverage move, something that can definitely be detrimental to its function against certain teams or archetypes - for example, without Bulk Up, Revenankh is almost useless against stall since it lacks immediate power and neutral coverage isn't enough to break through.
Also, are you really suggesting Shed Skin wasn't a nullity beforehand? As I mentioned, a set that considers Triage Recover would surely also consider Triage Moonlight; in other words, I don't think that adding Recover would change a set from running Shed Skin (which is dubious in its own right) to running Triage.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I think that if you are suggesting all sets would run Recover, surely the same would be true for Moonlight? I don't think that the extra PP would matter on offensive sets since they have far fewer chances to Recover - it can really drain your momentum if you spend a turn recovering instead of attacking. Recovering is also less useful since sets without bulk are more easily 2HKO'd - and OHKO'd - meaning that they can recover in front of less of the metagame. I don't think that a poorer matchup against relatively rare weather teams will keep Moonlight off of a set that would've ran Recover. This is, of course, assuming Revenankh runs recovery over Bulk Up or a coverage move, something that can definitely be detrimental to its function against certain teams or archetypes - for example, without Bulk Up, Revenankh is almost useless against stall since it lacks immediate power and neutral coverage isn't enough to break through.
Also, are you really suggesting Shed Skin wasn't a nullity beforehand? As I mentioned, a set that considers Triage Recover would surely also consider Triage Moonlight; in other words, I don't think that adding Recover would change a set from running Shed Skin (which is dubious in its own right) to running Triage.
I think the issue here is that Recover is far more reliable than Moonlight as a healing move. Moonlight has the large flaw of being affected by weather, and has low PP, which makes it fairly balanced, as players have to consider the best time to use it in dire stiuations. Recover almost entirely gets rid of this aspect of Revenankh, as you don't have to manage with low PP and can heal off your damage at your leisure. And considering that it is faster than a Prankster Tomohawk's Roost, which has already become infamous, it just seems like we'd break him. We would theoretically be creating a Pokemon that can easily stall out Pokemon that don't do over 50% damage on it, as it can heal off damage faster than the opponent can dish it out, and can do this for longer periods of time without the possibility of sabotage. I call this overbuffing in my book.
 

jas61292

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I'll be completely honest here, I think Recover, and by extension Moonlight, are completely irrelevant to Rev. Drain Punch is the defining move, and it will simply not have room for other recovery most of the time. With Triage, Rev now has an amazing and very powerful priority move, and every set it ever runs will use it. It also has a secondary STAB that can nail almost anything that didn't care about Drain Punch.

But, even so, Rev is not really that strong. It either needs to pack a powerful item or a boosting move to really be a threat. Furthermore, Rev absolutely needs Coverage or else things like Lando-T eat it alive. BU + 3 attacks may be a thing. CB may be a thing. But I really don't think a pure recovery move would be, outside some more niche tank set, because you either have to sacrifice power or coverage, neither of which it can afford.

That bring said, since recovery is really not a main goal for it, imo, Recover would just be a generic boost to it's movepool for no good reason, and thus not something we should give.
 

snake

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If you use Moonlight, which would be suboptimal ngl because Ice Punch is important, you use Moonlight while setting up Bulk Up to heal off damage. Then, you use Drain Punch and heal while attacking, using Moonlight if necessary (like maybe once?). I don't see why 8PP isn't enough for this, especially with the extra health from Drain Punch.
 

jas61292

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Ok, so I want to jump back to Ghost STABs for a second, because I still believe people are jumping on the Shadow Bone train without actually looking where it is going. Nearly every post on Shadow Bone is basically a "why not? Its stronger" post, and that is an absolutely unacceptable reason for us to be giving out an incredibly competitive move. The only post that really addressed this at all was nv's, but I completely disagree with the conclusion. That post says Shadow Bone is good because it could make Revenankh "be able to overpower potential Unaware walls that may status it and even surprise Pokemon such as HazeHawk, forcing it to attack as it would lose inevitably with Defense drops."

We are making Rev the best and strongest Priority spammer in the tier, who can also set up. Tell me, why are we also trying to let it defeat its checks? When, on top of Rev's new ability to revenge things with ease and not be revenged by anything that dislikes Fighting type, if Clefable is unable to stop it, that is not a good thing, that is a bad thing. That is a clear sign that we have gone too far. And don't even get me started on Tomohawk. That there is even a sentence talking about Rev beating Tomo should be a huge alarm going off. This is not something we need to touch, and we should be staying well away.

And, of course, as I mentioned already, every other post but nv's fails to even address why Shadow Bone is a good idea, and even nv's explicitly says "Shadow Bone doesn't end up having a major difference in damage when it comes to particular things that should check Revenankh." But what it does do is make it harder for the things that should check it to do their job. And I really don't see how that can be anything but a bad decision for us to make.

Traige is going to completely revolutionize how Revenankh plays. Beyond its own ability to mitigate its speed and sweep, it also means that not a single Fighting weak Pokemon can afford to try and set up or sweep or anything until Rev is removed from the game. It completely warps how you have to play when your opponent is packing it. You can't even use your own priority to beat it before it can hit you. Regardless of how powerful it actually is, its very presence is now incredibly meaningful on a team, and any other major buff beyond that is probably going to far.
 
Yeah, Shadow Bone's drop in Defense is way too much for the mummy, now that it has access to priority spam in Triage Drain Punch. Although the Choice Band set has been improved upon because of a dank maymay, critical hits are not the main focus of Shadow Claw, which is the weaker move's only other effect besides dealing damage. Bone may be tasty for an undead, but it circumvents the bulk of Unaware tanks like Arghonaut, Quagsire, and possibly Pyukumuku.

(Pyukumuku doesn't seem to be as relevant as Argh and Quag because it can't attack directly, but it is still annoying to fight for a joke species. Having nice bulk and Unaware is a pain to deal with, even without attacks. Correct me on my page if I'm wrong, though.)
 
Just doing some calcs for Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw - I haven't really got an opinion either way but I thought some more data would help the situation. To give it some context, I used +1 Max Attack Adamant because it simulates both a Bulk Up set trying to sweep and Choice Band. I guess if I have time I'll edit this post with +0 calcs and calcs from the bulky set :D

So I basically went through the S and A ranks and found every damage benchmark that Shadow Bone achieved that neither Shadow Claw nor Drain Punch did. The really key difference, in my opinion, is that Shadow Bone outdamages Drain Punch against neutral targets. This is more significant against slower, defensive Pokemon whose matchup with Rev isn't affected as much by Triage. Anyway, to the list (actual calcs in hide tag):
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on offensive Lando after rocks
  • Chance to OHKO Mega Metagross (Metagross can tank two Drain Punches and the Bulk Up set lives a single Zen Headbutt)
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on SpD Celesteela after rocks
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on AV Magearna after rocks
  • Chance to OHKO Tapu Koko after rocks
  • Guaranteed 3HKO on SubCoil Zygarde
  • Chance to 2HKO SpD Fidgit (better chance after rocks)
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on SpD Mollux
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on SpD Pyroak after rocks
  • Chance to 2HKO Tapu Fini after rocks
  • Guaranteed OHKO on Jirachi after rocks
  • Chance to 2HKO Rotom-W (better chance after rocks)
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on Mega Sableye after rocks
  • Chance to 2HKO SpD Skarmory after rocks
  • Chance to 2HKO AV Tangrowth after rocks
  • Guaranteed 3HKO on PhysDef Tangrowth after rocks
  • Chance to OHKO Volcarona
Guaranteed 2HKO on offensive Lando after rocks
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 144-169 (45.1 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 118-139 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chance to OHKO M-Meta (isn't 2HKOd by DP but is in return by ZH)
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 276-326 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 121-144 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Guaranteed 2HKO on SpD Celesteela after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 192-226 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 157-186 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 169-199 (42.4 - 50%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Guaranteed 2HKO on AV Magearna after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 175-207 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 144-171 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 154-183 (42.4 - 50.4%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Chance to OHKO Tapu Koko after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 226-267 (80.4 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Guaranteed 3HKO on Subcoil Zygarde
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 168-198 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 138-163 (33 - 39%) -- 8.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 148-175 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chance to 2HKO SpD Fidgit (better chance after rocks)
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fidgit: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fidgit: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fidgit: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Guaranteed 2HKO on SpD Mollux
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Guaranteed 2HKO on SpD Pyroak after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Pyroak: 187-222 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Pyroak: 154-183 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Pyroak: 166-196 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Chance to 2HKO Tapu Fini after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 123-145 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Guaranteed OHKO on Jirachi after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Chance to 2HKO Rotom-W (better chance after rocks)
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 112-133 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Guaranteed 2HKO on M-Sableye after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Chance to 2HKO SpD Skarmory after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 121-144 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Chance to 2HKO AV Tangrowth after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 144-169 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Guaranteed 3HKO on PhysDef Tangrowth after rocks
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 126-148 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 103-123 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- 8.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 111-132 (27.5 - 32.7%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Chance to OHKO Volcarona
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 280-330 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 229-271 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've only included calcs that I think are relevant - for example, I left out 3HKOs against Pokemon with reliable recovery. I mainly used the spreads provided by the calc so there may be a couple that are not perfect, but it was too time consuming to check every one. Also, it should be noted that anything that says 'Guaranteed OHKO/2HKO on ... after rocks' means that Shadow Bone provides a chance to OHKO/2HKO without rocks. I probably missed some so if anyone finds anything else that would be much appreciated too :D
 
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First things first, Gunk Shot, Swords Dance, and Recover are going on the blacklist. Gunk Shot isn't necessary, as Revenankh can already hit most relevant Fairy-types with Ghost-type STAB, and Earthquake, Power Whip, and Ice Punch can deal with Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, and Tapu Bulu, respectively. Swords Dance is on the blacklist because it's overkill. Triage gives Revenankh a huge boost to its offensive potential via Priority Drain Punch, so giving it SD would be unnecessary. Finally, Moonlight is sufficient for Revenankh, so Recover (and its clones) is, once again, unnecessary.

Regarding Shadow Claw vs Shadow Bone, I've seen differing views. I don't want to make a final decision quite yet, so I'll ask the following question: Is the power and secondary effect of Shadow Bone necessary to the success of Revenankh's Update? Second, no one has commented on Phantom Force and its use with Ghostium Z. Is Phantom Force a move we want to consider for Revenankh's Update?

[Edit]
This discussion will end on the 7th of May!
 
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reachzero

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Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw against Mollux

252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mollux: 199-234 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mollux: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mollux: 126-148 (32 - 37.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mollux: 164-192 (41.7 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mollux: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mollux: 243-289 (61.8 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

In other words, assuming Revenankh is faster than Mollux (it should be), it can 2HKO Mollux with either Life Orb (straight-up) or with a defense drop if it has Shadow Bone. Thus if Mollux is the expected switch-in, Rev is better off attacking. It can avoid being hit with a Lava Plume, which would do 29.9 - 35.1% and of course the all-important 30% chance of a Burn.

On the other hand, if Rev has Shadow Claw, it is better off using Bulk Up if Mollux is the expected switch-in. If Rev lacks Life Orb, Recover stalling is an option for Mollux, but the chance for a crit or a predictive Bulk Up make this a win for Revenankh. On the other hand, if Mollux attacks Rev will take at least one and probably two Lava Plumes before dying. Two Lava Plumes have a 51% chance of Burning Revenankh. Life Orb can guarantee only taking one hit from Lava Plume, but killing Mollux will of course also mean having Life Orb proc twice, meaning that the best possible outcome for Rev if Mollux chooses to attack is that Rev emerges victorious with ~50% of its health.

tl;dr, Shadow Bone greatly increases Revenankh's chances to beat Mollux without being Burned or heavily worn down.

Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw against Tapu Fini

Tapu Fini is hard to calculate against, since speed creep is a real thing, and both Tapu Fini's and Revenankh's target speed are hard to decide. I think Revenankh will probably try to hit ~210 to speed creep minimum speed Fini, but I could see running as much as 220 speed to outspeed mininum speed Landorus-T (I wouldn't, but you could). On the other hand, Fini has only some small motivation to creep, mostly four points or so for Rotom-W. Let's assume for this that Rev hits 210, and is faster than Tapu Fini.

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Revenankh: 182-216 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 122-146 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 101-121 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 185-218 (53.9 - 63.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 152-179 (44.3 - 52.1%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Fini 2HKOs Revenankh, so Revenankh wins if it is faster and 3HKOs. With Life Orb, It has a pretty good shot at doing so with Shadow Bone without even getting a defense drop or having Stealth Rock up. With a defense drop, 2HKOing Fini is within reach, especially if Stealth Rock is up.

With Shadow Claw, even with Life Orb Rev has only a 14.5% chance to 3HKO, even with Stealth Rock up. However, if Stealth Rock is on the field, by using Bulk Up as Tapu Fini comes in, Revenankh now has a real shot at 2HKOing Fini with Shadow Claw.

252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 94-112 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 78-93 (22.7 - 27.1%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 142-168 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 117-138 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 211-250 (61.5 - 72.8%)

Without Life Orb, the calcs are much more in Fini's favor. There's just one small problem....if Revenankh Bulks Up at Fini comes in, it can 2HKO Tapu Fini if it gets the defense drop. Shadow Claw still only 3HKOs, so Tapu Fini will win even if Rev Bulks Up as it comes in.

tl;dr Shadow Bone makes Tapu Fini a pretty shaky check against Revenankh, whereas it is a hard check against Shadow Claw Revenankh.

Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw against Tapu Lele
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Shadow Bone always KOs, though Life Orb or Stealth Rock each make this point moot.

Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw against Unaware Arghonaut
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 179-212 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 148-175 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 91.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Shadow Claw is not breaking even SpD Unaware Argho even with Life Orb, whereas Shadow Bone Revenankh can beat Argho with defense drops and Drain Punch.

Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw against Unaware Clefable
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Revenankh: 182-216 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 226-266 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Bone vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%)

Shadow Bone vs Shadow Claw totally changes the matchup against Unaware Clefable. Life Orb Shadow Bone Rev has a strong chance to actually beat Clefable if it gets the defense drop, and even non-Life Orb Shadow Bone Rev has some chance to win, although it will take very heavy damage in the process. On the other hand, even with Life Orb Shadow Claw Revenankh is completely walled by Unaware Clefable.


My conclusion is that Shadow Bone allows Revenankh to beat many Pokemon you would expect to check or counter it, whereas Shadow Claw requires far more finesse to beat those same Pokemon, where possible. Calcs don't lie, and what I take from the calcs is that Life Orb is probably the most consistent item for Revenankh, while Shadow Claw is damaging enough. Shadow Bone is probably overkill, considering how much it changes the interactions with Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Arghonaut especially.
 

snake

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Praise lord helix.

Revenankh @ Ghostium Z
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Ability: Triage
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Phantom Force
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch / Moonlight

Offensive Bulk Up set feat. Ghostium Z boosted Phantom Force. The boosted attack allows it to break past threats with its STAB alone. Gunk Shot is also added to beat Fairies, if needed. Otherwise run Moonlight to keep up its HP.

+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Tapu Fini: 265-313 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

More defensive sets later.
This post will address Phantom Force vs. Shadow Claw. Ghostium Z Phantom Force is really strong, but is it necessary over Shadow Claw? On the surface, Phantom Force looks like a move that's really only good for Never-Ending Nightmare because Phantom Force is bad right? After all, you can always just swap in your Normal-type or Dark-type to absorb the hit...oh wait Revenankh has really strong Fighting-type priority. This means that nothing really is safe from this 90 BP Ghost-type STAB, unless you have reliable recovery or are really bulky. But that's where Ghostium Z comes in, remember? Additionally, Phantom Force wouldn't be such a terrible pick with Leftovers, as you gain an extra turn of Leftovers recovery on the charge turn. The following calcs support that Phantom Force would be overwhelming on Revenankh. Note that I am using the set above with the edits I've included (allows Revenankh to outspeed Tapu Lele), and that I will be throwing on Life Orb calcs for reference as well.

Tapu Fini

Phantom Force
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 304-358 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Phantom Force vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 157-186 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Phantom Force vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 204-242 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Shadow Claw
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 244-288 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 123-145 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 160-188 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Revenankh: 182-216 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Assuming Tapu Fini switches in on Bulk Up, Revenankh pretty much walks all over it with Phantom Force. In addition to being able to OHKO it after rocks with Never-Ending Nightmare, it almost 2HKOes with Life Orb, and without a boosting item it still chips down on Tapu Fini hard. Shadow Claw on the otherhand, still gets off loads of damage with Never-Ending Nightmare, but otherwise lets Tapu Fini actually check Revenankh effectively.

Tomohawk

Phantom Force
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 313-369 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Shadow Claw
+1 252+ Atk Revenankh Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 250-295 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Revenankh: 168-200 (50.7 - 60.4%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Really only dropping these calcs because Tomohawk walls Revenankh once it's in and has used Haze, but look how much damage it takes on the switch in from Ghostium Z at +1. Sure, it doesn't OHKO, but if you wear down Tomohawk just a little bit and bam, your opponent's Tomohawk is gone. Shadow Claw isn't as bad as Phantom Force, and it's much harder to wear down Tomohawk 70% than 90%.


Hopefully these two examples show how crazy Phantom Force Revenankh is. While it can't hope to beat Tomohawk and other walls with recovery, they get smashed on the switch-in unless they have Unaware. Shadow Claw (and its Z variant) should be more than enough for Revenankh. I might put in more examples with calcs later.
 

Deck Knight

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As far as the Phantom Force argument goes:

The thing about Ghostium-Z Phantom Force is that all the scary calcs require a Bulk Up Boost. Which means the set is likely to be one posted by G-Luke / Reviloja, which is BU Dual STAB Ice Punch / Moonlight. This retains Rev's identity as a scary BU user.

The Tomohawk calc is neat, but requires four-five turns of setup:
1. Mon needs to be in that can set SR.
2. SR turn

These can be combined if the mon is a lead or we're considering a neutral state.

3. Rev Switchin
4. Rev uses Bulk Up
5. Rev uses Never-Ending Nightmare.

If Tomohawk switches in on any turn except for 5, it is safe. It can either Spin away rocks or already be in on Rev if Rev for some reason is used to Spinblock.

So it is true that Z-Phantom Force is a very powerful breaker move after a Bulk Up. This is true of many Z-Moves used in the metagame, such as Flyinium-Z Mence / Gyara / Lando-T to an extent. Crucially, those moves one-shot Tomohawk even after it hazes away the boost, whereas Never-Ending Nightmare can't achieve that.

The other Pokemon brought up, Tapu Fini can likewise afford to exchange blows with non/exhausted Ghostium-Z Revenankh. Phantom Force never 2HKOs anything, it has to 4HKO because of its mechanics, so Tapu Fini will have 2 turns of Leftovers recovery rather than 1 if trying to defeat it with just Phantom Force.

Mega Pidgeot also makes Revenankh have to be wary of using Phantom Force. Pidgeot can hit with Hurricane during the semi-invulnerable turn. Even if Pidgeot switches in as Phantom Force connects (or fails to since Mega Pidgeot is immune),] whenever Rev cannot KO with Drain Punch it must either sacrifice itself or another of your Pokemon has to eat the Hurricane.
 
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Revenankh's first move poll has ended with the majority voting for Shadow Claw and against Shadow Bone.

For our next poll, we WILL be polling the move Phantom Force, but before we do this there are two other moves that I'd like to be discussed quickly: Stone Edge and Healing Wish.

I want Stone Edge discussed for flavour and consistency reasons, as most Fighting-types get this move. However, Revenankh has Rock Slide already, so is it necessary? Healing Wish is a move that has been suggested before, but I feel like is should be discussed a bit more it seems like it'd be a useful addition to Revenankh's movepool. However, would it just be adding for the sake of adding, and is there any real reason why it should get it?
  • Is Stone Edge necessary in Revenankh's movepool over Rock Slide?
  • Is giving Revenankh Healing Wish adding for the sake of adding?
This discussion will be open for 24 hours!
 

snake

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Is Stone Edge necessary in Revenankh's movepool over Rock Slide?

Calcs go in the following order:
Best move Revenankh can use aside from Rock Slide or Stone Edge (excluding Superpower)
Rock Slide calc
Stone Edge calc
vs. Mixed Wall Pyroak (252 HP / 192+ Def / 64 SpD)
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Pyroak: 127-151 (28.6 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Pyroak: 170-202 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Pyroak: 226-268 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Defensive Zapdos
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 130-154 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 37.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 188-222 (49 - 57.9%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 248-294 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Tank Zapdos
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 186-220 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 266-314 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 354-418 (92.4 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

vs. Assault Vest Tornadus-T
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 195-231 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 280-330 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 372-438 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Specially Defensive Mollux
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 724-852 (184.2 - 216.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 272-320 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 362-426 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

vs. Volkraken
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 372-438 (108.7 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 280-330 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 372-438 (108.7 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Dragon Dance Charizard-Mega-X
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 282-332 (94.9 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 212-250 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Revenankh Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 282-332 (94.9 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Might add Bulk Up set calcs, but Choice Band Revenankh definitely appreciates Stone Edge over Rock Slide, as it can bust past some of its usual checks otherwise. I'd like to avoid this move.

Is giving Revenankh Healing Wish adding for the sake of adding?

While this does increase set diversity, it's distracting to the movesets that Revenankh should be using: Bulk Up and Choice Band.

Revenankh @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Triage
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 SpD
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Shadow Claw
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch / Moonlight

Revenankh @ Choice Band
Ability: Triage
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Power Whip / Earthquake / Rock Slide / Trick

Because Healing Wish, especially priority Healing Wish (read: Healing Wish Tomohawk is so damn useful), would make it on to a sizable number of sets, we'd be distracting Revenankh from running Bulk Up (no point in boosting if you can sack yourself to healing back your Mega Charizard Y or something) or from Revenankh's colorful 4th slot on its Choice Band set, since that's where the move would go. In short, Healing Wish, while having really cool interactions with Triage, is largely unnecessary for what Revenankh needs to do.

For Phantom Force supporters: I'd like why Ghostium Z Shadow Claw doesn't cut it and why it's necessary to have Ghostium Z Phantom Force.
 
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Is giving Revenankh Healing Wish adding for the sake of adding?

We've given Rev a massively expanded niche as CAP's most powerful priority attacker, and I don't know that it really needs an emergency button like Healing Wish. Rev's solid bulk, ability to set up, and fantastic STAB combo are going to make it hard enough to kill and Healing Wish takes a revenge opportunity from the opponent and instead puts momentum into the hands of the Rev player. That's a lot of power to have one mon and makes it incredibly constricting on team building. It feels to me like addition for the sake of addition.
 

G-Luke

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Is giving Revenankh Healing Wish adding for the sake of adding?

Ofc it is. There is no real reason why it should learn Healing Wish. That would only push Rev past breaking point.

Is Stone Edge necessary in Revenankh's movepool over Rock Slide?

Its not necessary, its more for consistency (just look up how much things learn Rock Slide and not Stone Edge). I'm not sure how much KOs it nabs over Rock Slide, but it would only see use on Choice Band sets and woupd be in top contention with Rev's more valuable moves (Earthquake for the multitude of Poison types, Ice Punch for Lando-T [and Tomo]) so arguably Stone Edge wouldn't impact as much competitively as you think.
 

reachzero

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  • Is Stone Edge necessary in Revenankh's movepool over Rock Slide?
Rock Slide and Stone Edge are honestly both a little unnecessary on Revenankh, since its only motivation to use it is against Volcarona, which is far less common than Landorus-Therian and Tomohawk, the reasons it will run Ice Punch virtually all the time. Since it's only really worth it against Pokemon 4x weak to it, I'd say the benefit of Stone Edge over Rock Slide is marginal.
  • Is giving Revenankh Healing Wish adding for the sake of adding?
Yes. Why should Revenankh get Healing Wish? It doesn't make flavor sense and we already have priority Healing Wish in the metagame. It doesn't really mesh with Revenankh's bulky attacker base. It's suggested simply because it goes well with Triage, and not because it makes sense for Rev specifically. Let's not go down that path.
 

snake

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I think Phantom Force suffers from the same problem that Shadow Bone suffered: it lets Revenankh beat its defensive checks (Pyroak, Tapu Fini, Tomohawk, etc.) much easier than without it. While you're saddled with a two-turn move after you use Ghostium Z, it's not that bad because you have priority Drain Punch (that outspeeds other priority users like Sucker Punch Colossoil) to use against anything that can switch in. If Shadow Claw isn't powerful enough for a Z move on a bulky booster like Revenankh, that can boost its attack to +2 potentially, again, I'd really like to see why.
 

Deck Knight

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snake_rattler said:
For Phantom Force supporters: I'd like why Ghostium Z Shadow Claw doesn't cut it and why it's necessary to have Ghostium Z Phantom Force
The power drop alone between the two is amazing. The entire purpose of an offensive Z-Move is to break through one of the opponent's defensive checks to your Pokemon. As I've already pointed out and has been present in every calculation made in attempt to prove Phantom Force is too powerful, the calculation requires Bulk Up to have been used first. So not only must you switch Revenankh in, you must take a hit or deal with another potential unfavorable switch to set up Bulk Up.

Mechanically, it's best to compare Life Orb Shadow Claw vs. Ghostium-Z Phantom Force, because Ghostium-Z Shadow Claw is directly inferior to Life Orb Shadow Claw. At 140 Base Power, Gho-Z Shadow Claw does not boost damage enough to consider it over Life Orb. Accounting for the Life Orb boost, successive Shadow Claw's would have around 182 BP to Gho-Z Phantom Force's 175. The difference of course being two instances of Life Orb recoil and no specific need for Bulk Up.

But to illustrate that, let's look at the moment where +1 252 Adamant Z-Shadow Claw stops guaranteeing OHKOs against generally relevant threats:

Scizor-Mega (OU Offensive Swords Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 85.7 - 101.4% 12.5% chance to OHKO
Clefable (OU Utility) Never-Ending Nightmare 85.2 - 100.5% 6.3% chance to OHKO
Clefable (OU Magic Guard + Calm Mind) Never-Ending Nightmare 85.2 - 100.5% 6.3% chance to OHKO
Magearna (OU Choice Specs) Never-Ending Nightmare 81.3 - 95.7% guaranteed 2HKO
Sableye-Mega (OU Showdown Usage) Never-Ending Nightmare 80.2 - 94.7% guaranteed 2HKO
Magearna (OU Assault Vest) Never-Ending Nightmare 79.3 - 93.3% guaranteed 2HKO
Gyarados (OU Mega Dragon Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 79.1 - 93.3% guaranteed 2HKO
Celesteela (OU Specially Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 78.6 - 92.9% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magearna (OU Offensive Trick Room) Never-Ending Nightmare 78.5 - 92.5% guaranteed 2HKO
Venusaur (OU Defensive Tank) Never-Ending Nightmare 78.5 - 92.7% guaranteed 2HKO
Slowbro-Mega (OU Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 77.8 - 92.1% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zygarde (OU Dragon Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 76.7 - 90.7% guaranteed 2HKO
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 76.3 - 90.3% guaranteed 2HKO
Gliscor (OU Swords Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 75.8 - 89.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Pelipper (OU Physically Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 75.5 - 89.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Venusaur-Mega (OU Offensive Tank) Never-Ending Nightmare 75.4 - 88.8% guaranteed 2HKO
Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 74.2 - 87.5% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rotom-Wash (OU Defensive Pivot) Never-Ending Nightmare 74.2 - 87.4% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Charizard-Mega-X (OU Bulky Will-O-Wisp) Never-Ending Nightmare 73.8 - 87.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 73.6 - 86.8% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Choice Scarf) Never-Ending Nightmare 73.6 - 86.8% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Double Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 73.6 - 86.8% guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 72.1 - 85.3% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune (OU Substitute + Calm Mind) Never-Ending Nightmare 71.2 - 83.9% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu Fini (OU Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 71.1 - 83.9% guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scizor-Mega (OU Pursuit) Never-Ending Nightmare 70.8 - 83.3% guaranteed 2HKO


Here's the same cohort with Adamant 252 Life Orb Shadow Claw:

Scizor-Mega (OU Offensive Swords Dance) Drain Punch 40.2 - 47.6% guaranteed 3HKO
Clefable (OU Utility) Shadow Claw 37 - 43.9% 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clefable (OU Magic Guard + Calm Mind) Shadow Claw 37 - 43.9% 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magearna (OU Assault Vest) Drain Punch 36.9 - 44% guaranteed 3HKO
Celesteela (OU Specially Defensive) Drain Punch 36.6 - 43.4% 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magearna (OU Offensive Trick Room) Drain Punch 36.5 - 43.1% guaranteed 3HKO
Zygarde (OU Dragon Dance) Drain Punch 36.1 - 42.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance) Drain Punch 35.5 - 42.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Sableye-Mega (OU Showdown Usage) Shadow Claw 35.1 - 41.4% guaranteed 3HKO
Charizard-Mega-X (OU Bulky Will-O-Wisp) Drain Punch 34.8 - 41.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Rotom-Wash (OU Defensive Pivot) Drain Punch 34.6 - 41.2% 65.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gyarados (OU Mega Dragon Dance) Shadow Claw 34.4 - 41% guaranteed 3HKO
Venusaur (OU Defensive Tank) Shadow Claw 33.9 - 40.6% guaranteed 3HKO
Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Drain Punch 33.8 - 40.1% 37% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slowbro-Mega (OU Defensive) Shadow Claw 33.8 - 40.4% 36.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gliscor (OU Swords Dance) Shadow Claw 33.2 - 39.2% 100% chance to 3HKO
Pelipper (OU Physically Defensive) Shadow Claw 33.1 - 39% 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Suicune (OU Substitute + Calm Mind) Drain Punch 33.1 - 39.6% 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scizor-Mega (OU Pursuit) Drain Punch 32.9 - 39% 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Venusaur-Mega (OU Offensive Tank) Shadow Claw 32.8 - 38.9% 99.2% chance to 3HKO
Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Shadow Claw 32.2 - 38.5% 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Shadow Claw 32.2 - 38.2% 97.1% chance to 3HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Claw 32.2 - 38.2% 97.1% chance to 3HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Double Dance) Shadow Claw 32.2 - 38.2% 97.1% chance to 3HKO
Clefable (OU Unaware + Calm Mind) Shadow Claw 31.7 - 37.5% 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu Fini (OU Defensive) Shadow Claw 31.1 - 36.7% guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


In many of these instances you are going to alternate moves and use your stronger Drain Punch for healing off Life Orb recoil. You really don't need Bulk Up for the Life Orb set, you can run Ice Punch or other coverage. In essence, having Shadow Claw but not Phantom Force makes a Bulk Up Set less viable. Why should Revenankh use a moveslot on Bulk Up when it can sufficiently damage with Life Orb and 3 Attacks + Moonlight? Unless it can efficiently break some of these strong meta threats like Mega-Scizor, Clefable, Mega-Venusaur, and Mega-Sableye it will struggle in the CAP metagame.

Here's the cohort with +1 Adamant Ghostium-Z Phantom Force:

Scizor-Mega (OU Offensive Swords Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 139.1 - 164% guaranteed OHKO
Clefable (OU Utility) Never-Ending Nightmare 137.8 - 162.6% guaranteed OHKO
Clefable (OU Magic Guard + Calm Mind) Never-Ending Nightmare 137.8 - 162.6% guaranteed OHKO
Kyurem-Black (OU Icium Z Wallbreaker) Never-Ending Nightmare 134.5 - 158.5% guaranteed OHKO
Kyurem-Black (OU Mixed Wallbreaker) Never-Ending Nightmare 134.5 - 158.5% guaranteed OHKO
Kyurem-Black (OU Choice Band) Never-Ending Nightmare 134 - 157.8% guaranteed OHKO
Magearna (OU Choice Specs) Never-Ending Nightmare 131.3 - 155.3% guaranteed OHKO
Sableye-Mega (OU Showdown Usage) Never-Ending Nightmare 129.9 - 152.9% guaranteed OHKO
Heatran (OU Bulky) Never-Ending Nightmare 129.5 - 152.8% guaranteed OHKO
Celesteela (OU Specially Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 128.3 - 151.2% guaranteed OHKO
Gyarados (OU Mega Dragon Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 128.3 - 151% guaranteed OHKO
Magearna (OU Assault Vest) Never-Ending Nightmare 128 - 151.5% guaranteed OHKO
Venusaur (OU Defensive Tank) Never-Ending Nightmare 127.5 - 150.1% guaranteed OHKO
Magearna (OU Offensive Trick Room) Never-Ending Nightmare 127.4 - 150.2% guaranteed OHKO
Slowbro-Mega (OU Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 126.9 - 149.6% guaranteed OHKO
Zygarde (OU Dragon Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 124.9 - 147.3% guaranteed OHKO
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 124.1 - 146.6% guaranteed OHKO
Gliscor (OU Swords Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 123.2 - 145.4% guaranteed OHKO
Pelipper (OU Physically Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 123.2 - 144.8% guaranteed OHKO
Venusaur-Mega (OU Offensive Tank) Never-Ending Nightmare 122.8 - 144.5% guaranteed OHKO
Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 120.3 - 141.6% guaranteed OHKO
Rotom-Wash (OU Defensive Pivot) Never-Ending Nightmare 120.1 - 141.5% guaranteed OHKO
Charizard-Mega-X (OU Bulky Will-O-Wisp) Never-Ending Nightmare 119.7 - 141.5% guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 119.7 - 141% guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Choice Scarf) Never-Ending Nightmare 119.7 - 141% guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Double Dance) Never-Ending Nightmare 119.7 - 141% guaranteed OHKO
Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 117 - 138% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Fini (OU Defensive) Never-Ending Nightmare 115.1 - 135.5% guaranteed OHKO


Remember, these calculations require a safe-switchin, the use of Bulk Up, and the avoidance of an intervening KO. After Gho-Z is exhausted, Revenankh cannot just click Phantom Force and expect to get a neutral hit. I would also note there is enough buffer here that you could run a more defensive Revenankh spread with Careful and still net many of these OHKOs.

In summary, +1 Z-Phantom Force makes a Bulk Up breaker set legitimately more viable than a Life Orb 3 Attacks Set, whereas boosted Z-Shadow Claw's failure to provide sufficient offensive pressure means Revenankh's two major sets will become Life Orb 3 Attacks and Choice Band. Will there still be some Life Orb sets that run Bulk Up? Probably, but without a set that allows Revenankh a bulkier build it will become solely an offensive Pokemon with good defenses rather than a defensive Pokemon that can break through opposing defenses given time to set up.

RE: Stone Edge and Healing Wish:

Stone Edge is only marginally more useful than Rock Slide, and you'd primarly be aiming it at Volcarona, Pyroak, and Gyarados before Mega-Evolving (or Fly-Z Gyara on the switch). I think it's fine as a consistency move, a ton of Fighting types learn Stone Edge.

Healing Wish is just adding for the sake of adding. It's also explicitly against Revenankh's general way of playing, which is to be a difficult to KO offensive or defensive presence with un-resisted STAB. Sacrifice moves aren't Revenankh's bag.
 
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