CAP Updates: Naviathan Discussion (Complete)

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G-Luke

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Brutal Swing is an attack I think Navi can more than get. Its weak, doesn't provide much worthwhile coverage, and is actually flavourful.

Dragon Hammer is something I may or may not support, as no Dragons (other than Exe-Alola) actually get it. I'd need more convincing.

Ice Hammer is a big no no. It allows it bust past stuff we obviously didnt want it to bust past with it (see Cyclothm) and its not even a Hammer, its a boat crocodile for crying out loud.

Smart Strike is another one I can get behind. Its obviously not gonna outclass other STAB options, and its flavourful.

Another move that technically isnt Gen 7, but can be easily justified by, is Lock On. Take this Pokedex enterie from its prevo Caimanoe

X/OR: Their brains match the magnetic field of a compass. Travelers have trusted the navigation skills of this Pokémon since the 16th century.

Now, Lock On is an attack generally centred around magnets, compasses and robots. I think a dex entry supporting this shouldnt be ignored. It also has the neat effect of not having much competitive use what so ever on Navi (or whatever gets it apparently)
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Brutal Swing I fully support, as it makes quite a bit of sense flavorly, as Naviathan is quite a large pokemon, so it could throw its weight around if neccesary. It also is relatively outclassed in every way by other Dark moves, so it doesn't have to worry about being used competitively.

Dragon Hammer and Ice Hammer. Gonna group these together since I have the same opinion of them: absolutely not. Ice Hammer itself already causes problems competitively, as it is a very strong move on its own. But my main issue with it is that they are essentially exclusive moves at the moment as Dragon Hammer is only on Alolan Lesser Dog, and Ice Hammer is signature to Crabominable. It is a very long stretch in my mind for Naviathan to be able to use them even, so it doesn't make sense that neither a dragon nor an ice type should get these for mere flavor.

Smart Strike is one of those wierd ones that make sense, but is a serious stretch flavorfully. Personally I want Navi to get this move, but the arguments against it are right: it technically doesn't have a horn or something similar to one. One could make an argument for its oars acting as sort of a horn, but that is quite the stretch. I want it, but it doesn't quite make sense. So, for now, I will not put my support behind it.

Lock On, as mentioned by G-Luke, is certainly a creative option with creative support. I think this is one of the few times where a prevo may assist in this argument for it, and I personally believe it. It certainly won't be used competitively, but I would be interested in it as in option.

I guess the only other move I can see that could possibly work is Clanging Scales, but I myself want to shoot that down. It, once again, is an exclusive move to Kommo-o, so it would be extremely hard to justify, especially on a non-dragon type. Additionally, it is very strong competitively, so it would be to strong to be considered a "consistency" move, as it falls more under competitive. Overall, I don't see any way this move could possibly work.
 

snake

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Dragon Hammer and Ice Hammer. Gonna group these together since I have the same opinion of them: absolutely not. Ice Hammer itself already causes problems competitively, as it is a very strong move on its own. But my main issue with it is that they are essentially exclusive moves at the moment as Dragon Hammer is only on Alolan Lesser Dog, and Ice Hammer is signature to Crabominable. It is a very long stretch in my mind for Naviathan to be able to use them even, so it doesn't make sense that neither a dragon nor an ice type should get these for mere flavor.
I honestly don't like this argument: "it's this one Gen 7 mon's exclusive move." The problem with that argument is that basically EVERY mon introduced in Gen 7 has something exclusive to it, be it ability or move. If we follow this logic, it limits so much we can do with our Gen 7 CAPmons. We gave Arghonaut Misty Surge, an ability exclusive to Tapu Fini, and we had a long discussion about Comatose, exclusive to Komala. Triage, exclusive to Comfey, is getting a lot of support for Revenankh now. I know these are abilities and not moves, but I hope my argument makes sense. Ice Hammer has too much competitive implication to be considered, but Dragon Hammer imo not so much, since it's basically inferior to Icicle Crash as coverage.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I honestly don't like this argument: "it's this one Gen 7 mon's exclusive move." The problem with that argument is that basically EVERY mon introduced in Gen 7 has something exclusive to it, be it ability or move. If we follow this logic, it limits so much we can do with our Gen 7 CAPmons. We gave Arghonaut Misty Surge, an ability exclusive to Tapu Fini, and we had a long discussion about Comatose, exclusive to Komala. Triage, exclusive to Comfey, is getting a lot of support for Revenankh now. I know these are abilities and not moves, but I hope my argument makes sense. Ice Hammer has too much competitive implication to be considered, but Dragon Hammer imo not so much, since it's basically inferior to Icicle Crash as coverage.
While, yes, we are openly discussing giving certain CAPs Gen 7 exclusive abilities, and have already given Misty Surge to Arghonaut, the difference is that the examples you have given were discussed solely for their competitive advantages, not for their flavor. I personally don't like Ice Hammer on Arghonaut because of it being far stronger than its already available Ice coverage and it seeming a bit excessive of coverage moves, but I'm not saying I despise the move just because it is only on Crabominable. We can afford to be more picky about this kind of stuff right now, since we are covering the Consistency part of the update. Excluding the fact that the two moves given are exclusive to certain Pokemon for a minute, I still don't support either move at all for the fact that Ice Hammer is far too competitively useful of a move to be considered consistency, and Dragon Hammer is extremely hard to justify as a flavor move on a non-Dragon type.
 

snake

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While, yes, we are openly discussing giving certain CAPs Gen 7 exclusive abilities, and have already given Misty Surge to Arghonaut, the difference is that the examples you have given were discussed solely for their competitive advantages, not for their flavor. I personally don't like Ice Hammer on Arghonaut because of it being far stronger than its already available Ice coverage and it seeming a bit excessive of coverage moves, but I'm not saying I despise the move just because it is only on Crabominable. We can afford to be more picky about this kind of stuff right now, since we are covering the Consistency part of the update. Excluding the fact that the two moves given are exclusive to certain Pokemon for a minute, I still don't support either move at all for the fact that Ice Hammer is far too competitively useful of a move to be considered consistency, and Dragon Hammer is extremely hard to justify as a flavor move on a non-Dragon type.
I agree with you about Ice Hammer, but Naviathan does get a bunch of Dragon-type moves: Dragon Pulse, Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw, and Dragon Breath. I'm not saying that Naviathan MUST get Dragon Hammer because of that, but it's not like there's no precedent for Naviathan to have had Dragon-type moves.
 
G-Luke When I submitted that entry, I kinda had Lock-On in mind because some official Pokémon have Dex entries that imply they have a move they can't even use. I wouldn't mind having it on Ciamanoe and Naviathan as a level-up option, though.

snake_rattler If you think about it, those moves just have poor distribution right now, but that can change in the future. Look at what happened to Parting Shot!
 
It looks like it could probably learn Gear Up, boats probably have gears and it isn't too useful. It isn't exclusive to anyone because magearna gets it now. It is pretty useful competitively unless you plan on going doubles with its favourite team mate, plus KlingKlang. So Gear UP is entirely flavour I guess.

Ice Hammer and Smart strike are something I kind of disagree with. Ice hammer is too good for the consistency update, and smart strike seems to be only on things with horns.

Brutal Swing and Dragon hammer looks like it would make a lot of sense, reasons are already said in a post somewhere.
 
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While, yes, we are openly discussing giving certain CAPs Gen 7 exclusive abilities, and have already given Misty Surge to Arghonaut, the difference is that the examples you have given were discussed solely for their competitive advantages, not for their flavor. I personally don't like Ice Hammer on Arghonaut because of it being far stronger than its already available Ice coverage and it seeming a bit excessive of coverage moves, but I'm not saying I despise the move just because it is only on Crabominable. We can afford to be more picky about this kind of stuff right now, since we are covering the Consistency part of the update. Excluding the fact that the two moves given are exclusive to certain Pokemon for a minute, I still don't support either move at all for the fact that Ice Hammer is far too competitively useful of a move to be considered consistency, and Dragon Hammer is extremely hard to justify as a flavor move on a non-Dragon type.
I personally find Ice Hammer too good for flavor, but I don't think it's a bad pick. While it is a great powerful coverage the speed drop just makes the whole difference. When using Dragon Dance having an attack that lowers your boosted stat is something you want to avoid not to mention that it learns Icicle Crash which has at best around less than a 10% difference, the counters are not affected by it all. Would you really run something that ruins your speed when you're using a dragon dance set just for a not even 10% of damage difference.
252 Atk Life Orb Naviathan Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 86-101 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 73-86 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Naviathan Ice Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 109-129 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 94-110 (35.8 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Moving on, so far I can get behind Smart Strike and Brutal Swing, it's not something Naviathan would abuse at all and are very much qualified flavor-wise.
 
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Deck Knight

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Work Up's distribution is not random at all: It's Normal types (Includes Eevee line and things that used to be normal like Cleffa and Granbull), Fighting types, and Starters with very few exceptions to that trend.

Ice Hammer and Dragon Hammer are blatantly competitive moves and are not eligible for consistency discussion. With Z-Moves now, do remember that these moves don't just mean "lol Navi could lower its speed but have more powa" it means "Navi has a 180 BP Physical Ice Z-Move."

So it's not a move Navi should get as a consistency update.

Brutal Swing is great, Smart Strike also works for Naviathan because it has a few claw and punch moves. Naviathan's design is very busy, but it gets what it needs to.

Otherwise as a 6th Gen mon, Naviathan isn't missing out on many moves it should have. Lock-On works for dex flavor I guess but isn't really a consistency kind of move.
 
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Ice Hammer and Dragon Hammer are blatantly competitive moves and are not eligible for consistency discussion. With Z-Moves now, do remember that these moves don't just mean "lol Navi could lower its speed but have more powa" it means "Navi has a 180 BP Physical Ice Z-Move."

So it's not a move Navi should get as a consistency update.
Once again the biggest difference it could make is about 10% which honestly isn't worth it.

Icicle Crash
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 134-158 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 200-236 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 104-123 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ice Hammer
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (180 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 151-178 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 226-266 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 118-139 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 16.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Naviathan Subzero Slammer (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 270-318 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
These moves will have no competitive reasoning behind them. All flavor and style.

Spark
: Since it can learn Wild Charge, Thunder Punch, and Thunder Fang I'd like to believe it has some Electrical capabilities. Besides, Spark is a weaker Thunder Punch. :)
Twister: It can learn Whirlpool, and quite a few Dragon moves. It gives reason to believe it can also create Twisters.

Water Sport:
As a huge Water/Steel boat it should have anti-fire systems in place. Splish Splash.

Aqua Ring:
Read above. Also gives it a nice serene look in a huge storm.

Octazooka:
Fire the Cannons!

Spike Cannon:
Man the Harpoons! (you know, like un-iced Icicle Spear)
 

jas61292

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Using the same criteria that I mentioned in the Tomohawk thread, there are really only 5 moves that became easily obtainable between gen 6 and now: Aurora Veil, Brutal Swing, Leech Life, Smart Strike, and Work Up. I agree with others that Brutal Swing would be a nice addition, and I could go either way on Smart Strike.

Now, with that said, Pokemon will sometimes gain new level up or egg moves in a new gen, which could theoretically be anything. However, there is not much I can think of that really would fit. Ria's suggestion of Spike Cannon is not bad, considering it already has Icicle Spear. And I wouldn't mind some of the other mentioned things like Twister. But I don't think there is anything that is really all that necessary here.
 
These moves will have no competitive reasoning behind them. All flavor and style.

Spark
: Since it can learn Wild Charge, Thunder Punch, and Thunder Fang I'd like to believe it has some Electrical capabilities. Besides, Spark is a weaker Thunder Punch. :)
Twister: It can learn Whirlpool, and quite a few Dragon moves. It gives reason to believe it can also create Twisters.

Water Sport:
As a huge Water/Steel boat it should have anti-fire systems in place. Splish Splash.
Aqua Ring: Read above. Also gives it a nice serene look in a huge storm.
Octazooka: Fire the Cannons!
Spike Cannon: Man the Harpoons! (you know, like un-iced Icicle Spear)
I'm pretty much with you on all of these other than Octazooka, as it's 1. a signature move and 2. Has Octa in the name.


I'm also I fan of Lock-On, as it makes sense to me, and I don't think that it gets many if any good moves with low accuracy, as well as the favorable Brutal Swing and my suggestion of Smart Strike.
 

Deck Knight

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List of moves I like and where they wirk flavorwise:

Brutal Swing - TM
Lock-On - Egg (Remoraid)
Spike Cannon - Level-Up [No breeding partners except Smeargle]
Smart Strike - TM
Twister - Past Gen Tutor
 
List of moves I like and where they wirk flavorwise:

Brutal Swing - TM
Lock-On - Egg (Remoraid)
Spike Cannon - Level-Up [No breeding partners except Smeargle]
Smart Strike - TM
Twister - Past Gen Tutor
As much as I like the moves I mentioned in the last post of mine, I think that this should be what we go with.
 

G-Luke

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Aqua Ring and Water Sport are plenty flavourable options most Water types get, so I can get behind them as well.
 
So, I guess I'll throw my support for and arguments against a few of the argued moves.

I fully support Brutal Swing, simply due to the fact Naviathan has a long neck to use to swing, which supports its addition on flavor. It also isn't very viable competitively, so I see no reason not to add it. The same goes for Spike Cannon, and Smart Strike.

I could go either way on Lock-On, Twister and Water Sport, I don't really care. Though, just to point it out, only 46% of water types get Water Sport, so it's honestly a toss up.

However, I don't really support anything else. Dragon Hammer is currently an exclusive move to Exeggutor-A, and I personally don't believe we should be adding it willy-nilly unless it's the focus of a project. It was mentioned that Naviathan gets a large amount of dragon moves to support it getting this move. However, allow me to enlighten you to a key aspect: Exeggutor A only gets three Dragon type moves, including Hammer. As a matter of fact, the dragon moves Exeggutor A learns aren't even shared with Naviathan (Draco, Hammer, and Tail vs. Breath, Claw, Dance, Pulse)! This means that even though something gets dragon moves, it shouldn't necessarily get Dragon Hammer.

Spark I personally see no reason for, as it's not an electric type. In case you can't tell by this point, I'm not really a fan of giving mons moves just because they get moves of the same type. Only 5 non-Smeargle mons get is that aren't electric type. Those are the catfish line, of Whiscash and Magnet line of Probopass. There's also Grubbin, but since Charjabug and Vikavolt are electric types, I don't really consider it. I personally just don't see enough of a flavor precedent to give Navi Spark.

Aqua Ring I find a bit off, since the Water mons that learn it are all quite organic in design, whereas Naviathan is not. Furthermore, allow me to point out that, no, most Water Types do NOT get Aqua Ring. Only 42% of water types receive it, which is significantly less than half. Thus, I would not expect to see Aqua Ring on a random water type, simply speaking statistically here. Ergo, I don't find it a meaningful addition in terms of flavor.

Octazooka... oh boy Octazooka. Barring Smeargle, the mons that learn this move have tube-like mouths, allowing for it to resemble a kind of gun shot of ink. In addition to this, consider that only 6 non-Smeargle mons learn the move, comprising two evolution lines and Sableye. (Which begs the question, WHY does Sableye get Octazooka of all things???) Furthermore, consider the fact that it's Japanese name is 'Octopus Tank Cannon' roughly, I just don't see the reasoning of giving it to Naviathan based on flavor.

Ice Hammer I am largely against because it is a current signature move. In addition, please consult the in-game description of the move: "The user swings and hits with its strong, heavy fist. It lowers the user’s Speed, however." I understand that Naviathan has webbed feet kind of, but I definitely wouldn't consider them heavy fists... For me personally, this move also just doesn't add up flavor-wise.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
As discussion has spiraled into pre-Gen 7 moves such as Lock-On, Twister, and Spike Cannon, I want to re-emphasize that this Consistency Update should focus on moves that were introduced or made more available in Gen 7. In general, we should not be focusing on older moves that were not included in Naviathan's original movepool, as that does not align with the idea of a Consistency Update.

So far, the only new moves I am sold on are Brutal Swing and Smart Strike because they make sense thematically and are readily accessible in Gen 7.

To avoid this discussion going on endlessly, I'll probably give you guys until about Thursday, and we'll have a quick Consistency Move poll then.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
And on that note, it looks like this is the end of our Consistency discussion. Out of the Gen 7 moves discussed (pre-Gen 7 moves will not be included because adding them goes against the Conservation Principle for updates, and is just unnecessary in general), the moves most considered were Brutal Swing and Smart Strike. Brutal Swing is a widely-distributed move, while Smart Strike is given to certain Steel-types or Pokemon with horns.

There was really no opposition whatsoever to Brutal Swing. Therefore, due to ICC (Intelligent Community Consensus), Brutal Swing will be included.

That means Smart Strike is the only move that will need to be polled.

The ballot will simply be:

Include Smart Strike
Do Not Include Smart Strike

Remember, as always, do not post your votes in this thread, as there will be a separate poll thread soon.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
As determined by the poll, Smart Strike will not be included (74% majority).

And that concludes the Update process for Naviathan. It's been a pretty smooth ride, and I believe it was very successful. For those of you concerned about how long some of these updates are taking, be aware that all the other updates should not take nearly as long as this first set, as we prioritized the Pokemon that needed the most significant update.

This update will:
  • Increase the overall potency of Naviathan as a Dragon Dance sweeper via Guts and Heavy Slam.
  • Give Naviathan access to coverage that allows it to break through Mollux and Plasmanta, two Pokemon not taken into account as counters during the original process.
  • Further differentiate DD Naviathan from other Dragon Dance sweepers such as Gyarados and Salamence by focusing more on its Steel STAB.
  • Reduce the viability gap between Dragon Dance sets and Calm Mind sets, in order to increase unpredictability at Team Preview.
  • Generally make Naviathan look more like a Generation 7 Pokemon.
With that, the last little technicality was to decide where these new moves would fit into Naviathan's movepool. After some discussion with sparktrain as well as the creators of Naviathan's original movepool, HeaLnDeaL and cbrevan, we decided that Brutal Swing will be a TM move, Psychic Fangs will be an Egg Move (breedable with Stoutland), and Heavy Slam will be a level-up move (Start and Level 68).

Thanks for a great process everyone! It was an honor to lead it.
 
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