CAP Updates: Aurumoth Discussion

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I'm pretty much in agreement with Wenderz regarding further removals. We've arguably removed the most uncompetitive part of Aurumoth by electing to replace Illusion with a flavor ability, and I don't believe we need to nerf it any further. Part of playing against Aurumoth is scouting its coverage, and you no longer have to play the "guess which moves it's running" game even when it's not on the field.

I absolutely don't think we should be adding more physical coverage to Aurumoth's movepool. We literally just went through with a vote to nerf the mon, so turning around and giving it a significant buff really undermines that. Plus, it's not like we have any real obligation to make its Dragon Dance set as good as its Quiver Dance or Tail Glow sets. If Dragon Dance is a less effective set, then so be it.
 

cbrevan

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Hello everyone. It's been well over a week since I posed the last batch of questions for us to focus on, and given how inactive this thread has been, I'd like to move on with our discussion. As I stated previously, we're almost at the end of our competitive discussion for Aurumoth, which means we have to decide if there are any further changes we wish to see on Aurumoth that effect it on a competitive level. I don't believe we need to change No Guard or Weak Armor, so any further changes will be made to Aurumoth's existing movepool, if at all.

If I felt like it was possible, we would be moving right on ahead, but altogether I'm not entirely sure what the community consensus is right now. On one hand there has been a number of posts supporting no further changes to Aurumoth, but we also had a number of posts towards the beginning of this thread that seemed to focus on coverage issues in addition to Illusion. As such, I'd like to give this topic some more time for discussion so both sides have a chance to state their reasoning and arguments clearly. What I'm hoping for is that if people do feel there is a need for move removals, we can determine which specific moves we would want removed, so I can move on with a poll between removing said moves and no changes. If people in favor of further changes cannot present coherent arguments for removing specific moves, then I will forego the poll altogether and move straight onto flavour with no further competitive changes.

Now that has been said, here are the questions I want us to focus on.

With the removal of Illusion, do you believe there are any changes needed to Aurumoth's movepool? If so, what moves in particular do you believe would be the most beneficial to remove? Also, what matchups would removing these moves change, and how would these changes help address any problems you have with Aurumoth? If you don't believe any changes are necessary, why do you believe so?

Additionally, I believe we've had plenty of time to discuss and think over this, so I'll be aiming to wrap this stage up in 48 hours. Consider this a 48 hour warning. Also, make sure your provide relevant calcs for any move you wish to discuss. Finally, I'll end this post with my own personal thoughts on Aurumoth by answering the above questions.


Note that this is just my personal stance on Aurumoth, and has nothing to do with my duties as a UL.

Just as many have stated in this thread, the loss of Illusion will have a large impact on Aurumoth's ability to setup and sweep effectively. I'm glad we chose to remove Illusion because I believe it is the most unbalanced and overbearing aspect of Aurumoth. Now, the more difficult questions for me is, is there any changes we need to make towards its movepool? As we all know, Aurumoth boasts one of the most flexible and wide movepools in CAP, which notably includes three premium boosting moves and a wide coverage movepool on both sides of the spectrum. What this translates to is an offensive threat that has the ability to run a number of different sets and variations of sets that essentially allows Aurumoth to pick and choose what it beats. Unfortunately, it's this adaptability that makes it hard for me to ascertain what moves in particular Aurumoth would have to lose to diminish it to any real effect. With the loss of Illusion, Aurumoth will most likely turn to No Guard for the majority of it's sets, which means it'll have access to high powered coverage moves with no drawback whatsoever. I've heard some people say Overheat is the move that pushes Aurumoth over the edge because it allows Aurumoth to nuke Steel-type switchins, but a +1 LO Focus Blast retains OHKOs on Overheat targets such as Ferrothorn while hitting Metagross, Celesteela, and Heatran all for major damage. I'd even say Focus Blast would be the better move on No Guard Quiver Dance sets because it allows both access to items aside from Fireium Z and the higher powered nuke Overheat was used for on Illusion sets. Lacking Focus Blast and Overheat, Aurumoth would be able to use Thunder to retain coverage on Metagross and Celesteela, Hydro Pump on Heatran and Metagross, and Shadow Ball as an in between for all three. This just illustrates how Aurumoth can get past potential checks without relying on one single move to do so, which makes it hard to single out any one move to remove. As you can see, it's hard to draw any line as to what moves we should remove on Aurumoth. Moreover, Aurumoth has had a problem where Illusions sets had been so effective that they had pushed the other viable sets Aurumoth could run effectively out of the meta. Therefore, it's hard for me to say how these sets will perform if people start flocking to them, as well as how specific moves would affect these sets. All in all, these qualities make it hard for me to predict how Aurumoth will perform without specific moves, and I'm not a fan of removing anything without a clear goal and expectations for the effects its removal would cause.

This does bring us to the other option though; simply not touching Aurumoth's movepool does give us the best hope of exploring the other sets fully without Illusion's overbearing presence in the metagame. Even if Aurumoth does prove to still be overly viable with its current movepool, we'll at least be more likely to fully understand the interactions its wide movepool has with its viability. I'd even say this is the safest path for us to walk, as we won't open ourselves up to making a number of ineffectual changes, and we'd be able to more accurately address Aurumoth's problems down the line.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I don't know if this suggestions are competitive (probably are more flavour) but I think Fire Blast and Flamethrower should be added:
The only Fire coverage that Aurumoth can use is Overheat, a move that drops the special attack, the other types coverage moves (Electric, Water, etc...) can be used without worring about this drop.
Also I would suggest Power Gem, since Ancient Power is aviable
 

snake

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I don't know if this suggestions are competitive (probably are more flavour) but I think Fire Blast and Flamethrower should be added:
The only Fire coverage that Aurumoth can use is Overheat, a move that drops the special attack, the other types coverage moves (Electric, Water, etc...) can be used without worring about this drop.
Also I would suggest Power Gem, since Ancient Power is aviable
We don't need to add more moves like this without removing coverage first. In fact, Fire Blast is one of the last moves I'd like to see on Aurumoth, given how much it appreciates Fire-type coverage. Personally, I don't want to see any removals or additions on Aurumoth, but I'll elaborate later.
 
Just as snek said, I don't want any additional coverage moves on Aurumoth, especially Fire; this Pokémon will take that type of coverage for granted. It already has special Electric and Ice coverage, which would work well together if it weren't for Aurumoth's need to boost its Speed before attacking. I can't think of any coverage to remove except Overheat because it's Fire coverage, even with the harsh Special Attack drop. Otherwise, any removals are overkill at this point.

Weak Armor and No Guard both have drawbacks that make them risky enough to use and plummet to C Rank. The former lowers Defense by one stage, even with the addition of two Speed boosts as of SM, while opponents cannot miss when facing the latter set. No Guard enables Aurumoth to use Thunder, Blizzard, or even both alongside one of its STABs or Focus Blast.

I'm just looking forward to No Guard and Weak Armor sets.
 
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I believe that just removing Illusion is enough, especially at this point.
Removing Illusion is a huge change for Aurumoth, and opens the door to many, largely unexplored, set options. I'm very much with Cbrevan in saying that removing Overheat could accidentally change too much, too quickly. We just don't know what's going to happen with Aurumoth, and the safest and fairest option is to leave Overheat on and see how Aurumoth performs, and if the new sets even use it much at all, especially when you have No Guard Focus Blasts flying around with no drawbacks.
The safest option is to cut the removals here at Illusion. I'm 100% with Cbrevan.
 
On the fire side, I still think Firium Z Auru is broken. Having the ability to remove its checks at the snap of the fingers, it doesn't ned to preserve its HP for Illusion any more either, which means you can play a bit more risky with Aurumoth. As a result, I say we need to scrap Overheat for something with less power and I don't mean Flamethrower or Fire blast, I mean something with MUCH less power, and after a lot of debating, I'm probably going to get murdered for this, but I'd like to introduce Incinerate into the discussion.

Incinerate's main plusses are that it can provide fire coverage without outright removing Aurumoth's checks. Along with the fact that its Z-Power is lower than Overheats base power, but still lands crucial KOs, meaning that Incinerate is more specified
252 SpA Aurumoth Incinerate vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Aurumoth Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kitsunoh: 294-346 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Aurumoth Incinerate vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Scizor-Mega: 212-252 (61.8 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Aurumoth Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 144-170 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's the main aspect of why I'm making this unorthodox decision is because of exactly that, it makes Aurumoth carrying Incinerate to be that much specified. If your teams can deal with Auru's threats, but still worry for steel types, and you have a free slot, you can take care of steel types and maybe even use Aurumoth as a lure.

EDIT: My opinions are no longer facts

Anyways, please be nice to me on this! My opinion is very unorthodox but I thought I might as well make it known.
 
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I mentioned this earlier, but Tail Glow needs to go. It makes sense thematically, sure. However, a single Tail Glow is enough to sweep a good amount of the metagame. For example, with Z-Incinerate and +3, it has a chance to OHKO AV Magearna. It should not be able to do that very easily. Not to mention the fact that this is a 248 HP / 8 SpDef AV Magearna, meaning any steel type that is less bulky than the AV set is likely to be OHKOed. I like Incinerate, but we need to tone down this thing's ability to set up quickly. Normally I'd suggest a replacement, but Quiver Dance is already in its movepool, and I think that would work. However, I have a move that might help out mixed sets (and is a TM), Work Up. It would have a small niche, but it works in general.

+3 252 SpA Aurumoth Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 356-420 (98 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
 
So I've been jumping around a lot of the CAP forums and decided to give some input on Auru (for now). Manaphy has less coverage options and less initial fire power than Auru alongside a more situational ability, which helps balance it out more. So I would be cool with getting rid of Tail Glow.
The other discussion of significance at the moment is what to do for Fire coverage. I'm pretty in favor of Incinerate over Overheat. Overheat hits way to hard, and even with the stat drop, it isn't that hard to switch out. Additionally, if it would be on a Tail Glow set, one Tail Glow would easily undo any stat drop. I know Bionic Puppy already put up some calcs, but I would assume Auru would be at least at +1 from Quiver Dance before firing off any move or Z-move, so I decided to run some calcs for it myself. The following calcs still use a Timid nature to contrast against those done by Bionic Puppy.

+1 252 SpA Aurumoth Incinerate vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 280-332 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Aurumoth Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 214-254 (58.9 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Aurumoth Incinerate vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Scizor-Mega: 316-376 (92.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Based on these calcs, I think Incinerate would be sufficent
 
I would like to discuss why I think Auru needs more nerfs in general. In my eyes, Illusion was the biggest issue making Auru so broken. However, I think its wide movepool also is broken. The best comparison I can think of is Genesect. On its own, Genesect is nothing special. However, its insanely huge movepool and insane unpredictability is what ultimately tipped it to Ubers, in my opinion. Since that isn't possible for Auru, we need to regulate the amount of coverage it gets, or more specifically, the power of said coverage. It's just my opinion, but I think Auru needed a few more nerfs. However, I say removing Tail Glow and Overheat and adding Incinerate is enough. Or at least, out of what we have seen so far.
 
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Hey, I'm stepping in to make some comments about Cbrevan's question and overall give some thoughts on the topic. And first of all, I'd like to draw all your eyes to a comparison here: Volcarona and Aurumoth.
Volcarona Stats: 85/60/65/135/105/100 (Tier: OU)
Volcarona is a potent sweeper that I don't doubt we are all familiar with. Characterized by low physical bulk and bad defensive typing, a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, and having a massive Special Attack statistic coupled with excellent coverage in Fire Blast, Giga Drain, and Hidden Power Ground/Bug Buzz. Volcarona also doesn't have a notable competitive ability. This sweeper has four notable weaknesses:
  • A weakness to the common priority move Aqua Jet, and a low Physical defense in general rendering it weak to many physical attackers that can survive Volcarona's coverage moves, such as Gyarados.
  • A typing that provides three common weaknesses and few particularly useful resistances. (Weak to: Flying, Rock (4x), Water. Resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Grass (4x), Ice, Steel)
  • Difficulty in setting up due to losing 50% of its health upon field entry if Stealth Rock is active on the field, and a weakness to Spikes.
  • Extremely predictable movesets, even if it's powerful. For example, Gyarados will always beat Volcarona unless it's running say, HP Electric, which is just dumb coverage lol.
Aurumoth Stats: 110/120/99/117/60/94 (Tier: CAP)
Aurumoth is notorious in CAP for being an overall powerhouse, and backing competitive coverage of approximately half the types in the game. This is coupled with excellent mixed attacking stat, a weak defensive typing, a 2x Stealth Rock weakness, and three setup moves that are commonly considered among the best setup moves in the game. This CAP then has the excellent ability in No Guard, allowing it to abuse coverage of Hydro Pump, Overheat, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder. According to most players, Aurumoth has several weaknesses that mitigate this:
  • Aurumoth has a weakness to common priority moves in Sucker Punch, while being neutral to most other relevant priority moves. Note that physical attackers are forced to break through a 110/99 Defense statistic (significantly more physical bulk than Rotom-W, a renowned Defensive pivot).
  • A typing that provides many common weaknesses and few particularly useful resistances. (Weak to: Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Rock. Resists: Fighting (4x), Ground, Psychic.
  • Difficulty in setting up due to losing 25% of its health upon entering the field, and a weakness to Spikes.

Now here's the interesting part, where we compare Volcarona and Aurumoth's Quiver Dance sets.
  • Weakness 1: Priority moves
Volcarona is weak to Aqua Jet, while being neutral to Sucker Punch. It resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, the other two potentially relevant priority. 85/65 defense.
Aurumoth is weak to Sucker Punch (which can be played around if you're luck), while being neutral to Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet. 110/99 defense.

Volcarona is weak to one reliable priority, neutral to the moderately reliable priority, and resisting two others. It is extremely vulnerable to physical attacks in general thanks to having frail physical bulk, meaning Aqua Jet is extremely likely to destroy the standard Firium-Z set. Aurumoth is weak to the one moderately reliable priority, while being neutral to the other relevant priority moves. This is all received on an excellent defense stat. These two Pokemon balanced out to have a similar weakness to priority as Volcarona suffers more, but has several resistances to priority, while Aurumoth is neutral to more but has a higher defense to combat the lack of resistance. Essentially, Volcarona is better against specific kinds of priority, while Aurumoth is in-general better against the average priority move.

  • Weakness 2: Bad Typing
This is another interesting aspect of both these bugs. Volcarona has three weaknesses, each to a relevant competitive typing (Flying, Rock, Water) and Rock being a quadruple weakness. Note that Volcarona loses 50% of its health from Stealth Rock because of this, and essentially cannot enter the field when Stealth Rock is active. On the other hand, it resists Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Steel, Grass, Ice, and Steel. Aurumoth has more total weaknesses (Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Rock), but lacks a 4x weakness. The weakness to rock forces Aurumoth to lose 25% of its health if Stealth Rock is active, but this doesn't completely prevent Aurumoth from being usable when Stealth Rock is active. The resistances are Fighting, Ground, and Psychic.

Volcarona has better defensive typing technically, but can't enter the field if there are Stealth Rocks. Aurumoth has somewhat weaker defensive typing, but has equal or better resistances in terms of how useful they are, coupled with an annoying but not crippling Stealth Rock weakness. Both Pokemon have excellent offensive typing (Volcarona because Fire is great coverage, Aurumoth because Psychic is barely resisted with Bug coverage).

  • Weakness 3: Coverage/Setting Up
Volcarona is the only one of these two that has an issue with coverage moves. Both have about equal odds of setting up if played correctly, and both use Quiver Dance most commonly. However, Aurumoth is significantly less predictable because it can run two other setup moves extremely well, and has many powerful coverage moves with no drawbacks thanks to No Guard. It can provide a coverage move to work around essentially anything that might counter it. Focus Blast hits Dark, Rock, and Steel types, Thunder hits Flying types, Blizzard hits Flying and Ground types, Overheat (especially with Firium-Z) hits Steel types, and Hydro Pump hits Ground and Rock types. Psyshock hits the normal go-to counter for special attackers, aka Chansey. Volcarona only has approximately four different moves that it chooses to run. Both Volcarona and Aurumoth cannot be easily revenge killed when at +1 Speed thanks to Quiver Dance. It is worth noting that Volcarona has a significantly better Speed Tier, and therefore a massive advantage in a lot of areas.


The point in all that is Volcarona is OU. Aurumoth is nearly as good, if not as good or better, as Volcarona, but much less predictable in sets and ways of working around almost any counter when running a Special Attacker set. I'm not concerned about Dragon Dance, which lacks the same unpredictable coverage and doesn't patch up Aurumoth's special side, and I'm not concerned about Tail Glow which can be easily revenge killed.

I'm concerned about a Pokemon approximately equal in quality to Volcarona, who is OU, and then giving it coverage to work around almost every counter that you could run against it. Aurumoth should not have Quiver Dance and insane Coverage options. So I propose we either remove Quiver Dance entirely, or remove the coverage options of either Focus Blast and/or Overheat. Maybe remove something else as well from the coverage. I have little problem with Quiver Dance on a predictable Pokemon, or an unpredictable Pokemon with many different coverage options. But putting them together I think opens a can of worms that we don't want to open.

- Essentially, we should choose Quiver Dance, or godly coverage. Not both.
 
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Hey, I'm stepping in to make some comments about Cbrevan's question and overall give some thoughts on the topic. And first of all, I'd like to draw all your eyes to a comparison here: Volcarona and Aurumoth.
Volcarona Stats: 85/60/65/135/105/100 (Tier: OU)
Volcarona is a potent sweeper that I don't doubt we are all familiar with. Characterized by low physical bulk and bad defensive typing, a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, and having a massive Special Attack statistic coupled with excellent coverage in Fire Blast, Giga Drain, and Hidden Power Ground/Bug Buzz. Volcarona also doesn't have a notable competitive ability. This sweeper has four notable weaknesses:
  • A weakness to the common priority move Aqua Jet, and a low Physical defense in general rendering it weak to many physical attackers that can survive Volcarona's coverage moves, such as Gyarados.
  • A typing that provides three common weaknesses and few particularly useful resistances. (Weak to: Flying, Rock (4x), Water. Resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Grass (4x), Ice, Steel)
  • Difficulty in setting up due to losing 50% of its health upon field entry if Stealth Rock is active on the field, and a weakness to Spikes.
  • Extremely predictable movesets, even if it's powerful. For example, Gyarados will always beat Volcarona unless it's running say, HP Electric, which is just dumb coverage lol.
Aurumoth Stats: 110/120/99/117/60/94 (Tier: CAP)
Aurumoth is notorious in CAP for being an overall powerhouse, and backing competitive coverage of approximately half the types in the game. This is coupled with excellent mixed attacking stat, a weak defensive typing, a 2x Stealth Rock weakness, and three setup moves that are commonly considered among the best setup moves in the game. This CAP then has the excellent ability in No Guard, allowing it to abuse coverage of Hydro Pump, Overheat, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder. According to most players, Aurumoth has several weaknesses that mitigate this:
  • Aurumoth has a weakness to common priority moves in Sucker Punch, while being neutral to most other relevant priority moves. Note that physical attackers are forced to break through a 110/99 Defense statistic (significantly more physical bulk than Rotom-W, a renowned Defensive pivot).
  • A typing that provides many common weaknesses and few particularly useful resistances. (Weak to: Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Rock. Resists: Fighting (4x), Ground, Psychic.
  • Difficulty in setting up due to losing 25% of its health upon entering the field, and a weakness to Spikes.

Now here's the interesting part, where we compare Volcarona and Aurumoth's Quiver Dance sets.
  • Weakness 1: Priority moves
Volcarona is weak to Aqua Jet, while being neutral to Sucker Punch. It resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, the other two potentially relevant priority. 85/65 defense.
Aurumoth is weak to Sucker Punch (which can be played around if you're luck), while being neutral to Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet. 110/99 defense.

Volcarona is weak to one reliable priority, neutral to the moderately reliable priority, and resisting two others. It is extremely vulnerable to physical attacks in general thanks to having frail physical bulk, meaning Aqua Jet is extremely likely to destroy the standard Firium-Z set. Aurumoth is weak to the one moderately reliable priority, while being neutral to the other relevant priority moves. This is all received on an excellent defense stat. These two Pokemon balanced out to have a similar weakness to priority as Volcarona suffers more, but has several resistances to priority, while Aurumoth is neutral to more but has a higher defense to combat the lack of resistance. Essentially, Volcarona is better against specific kinds of priority, while Aurumoth is in-general better against the average priority move.

  • Weakness 2: Bad Typing
This is another interesting aspect of both these bugs. Volcarona has three weaknesses, each to a relevant competitive typing (Flying, Rock, Water) and Rock being a quadruple weakness. Note that Volcarona loses 50% of its health from Stealth Rock because of this, and essentially cannot enter the field when Stealth Rock is active. On the other hand, it resists Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Steel, Grass, Ice, and Steel. Aurumoth has more total weaknesses (Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Rock), but lacks a 4x weakness. The weakness to rock forces Aurumoth to lose 25% of its health if Stealth Rock is active, but this doesn't completely prevent Aurumoth from being usable when Stealth Rock is active. The resistances are Fighting, Ground, and Psychic.

Volcarona has better defensive typing technically, but can't enter the field if there are Stealth Rocks. Aurumoth has somewhat weaker defensive typing, but has equal or better resistances in terms of how useful they are, coupled with an annoying but not crippling Stealth Rock weakness. Both Pokemon have excellent offensive typing (Volcarona because Fire is great coverage, Aurumoth because Psychic is barely resisted with Bug coverage).

  • Weakness 3: Coverage/Setting Up
Volcarona is the only one of these two that has an issue with coverage moves. Both have about equal odds of setting up if played correctly, and both use Quiver Dance most commonly. However, Aurumoth is significantly less predictable because it can run two other setup moves extremely well, and has many powerful coverage moves with no drawbacks thanks to No Guard. It can provide a coverage move to work around essentially anything that might counter it. Focus Blast hits Dark, Rock, and Steel types, Thunder hits Flying types, Blizzard hits Flying and Ground types, Overheat (especially with Firium-Z) hits Steel types, and Hydro Pump hits Ground and Rock types. Psyshock hits the normal go-to counter for special attackers, aka Chansey. Volcarona only has approximately four different moves that it chooses to run. Both Volcarona and Aurumoth cannot be easily revenge killed when at +1 Speed thanks to Quiver Dance. It is worth noting that Volcarona has a significantly better Speed Tier, and therefore a massive advantage in a lot of areas.


The point in all that is Volcarona is OU. Aurumoth is nearly as good, if not as good or better, as Volcarona, but much less predictable in sets and ways of working around almost any counter when running a Special Attacker set. I'm not concerned about Dragon Dance, which lacks the same unpredictable coverage and doesn't patch up Aurumoth's special side, and I'm not concerned about Tail Glow which can be easily revenge killed.

I'm concerned about a Pokemon approximately equal in quality to Volcarona, who is OU, and then giving it coverage to work around almost every counter that you could run against it. Aurumoth should not have Quiver Dance and insane Coverage options. So I propose we either remove Quiver Dance entirely, or remove the coverage options of either Focus Blast and/or Overheat. Maybe remove something else as well from the coverage. I have little problem with Quiver Dance on a predictable Pokemon, or an unpredictable Pokemon with many different coverage options. But putting them together I think opens a can of worms that we don't want to open.

- Essentially, we should choose Quiver Dance, or godly coverage. Not both.
If we do end up removing Quiver Dance however, I suggest we replace it with Calm Mind. The only difference to this and QD is that it doesn't get its speed raised. This way it could still set up somewhat reliably (but not too quickly), but it doesn't get the Speed boost that makes QD hard to deal with at times.
 
If we do end up removing Quiver Dance however, I suggest we replace it with Calm Mind. The only difference to this and QD is that it doesn't get its speed raised. This way it could still set up somewhat reliably (but not too quickly), but it doesn't get the Speed boost that makes QD hard to deal with at times.
I'm cool with Focus Blast getting removed, though Overheat seems like a more important removal than Focus Blast does. Out of curiousity, Reviloja753, would you still be for getting rid of Tail Glow if Calm Mind replaced Quiver Dance?
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I prefer to remove Overheat: thanks to the Z-moves Aurumoth can still break (but not completely) a lot of Steel types.
Also I don't like the idea of removing Quiver Dance because is part of this concept (high risk, high reward).
In a metagame where the medium speed is very high, how can a pokémon with only 60 SpD and a bad defensive typing (and with a rock weakness), be rewarded with Calm Mind?
 
I'm cool with Focus Blast getting removed, though Overheat seems like a more important removal than Focus Blast does. Out of curiousity, Reviloja753, would you still be for getting rid of Tail Glow if Calm Mind replaced Quiver Dance?
Yeah. I honestly think QD is fine as it is, as it can be killed with Sucker Punch. It also is okay for the reasons David mentioned.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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So I think cbrevan hit it perfectly when he said that the safest path for us to walk is the one where we just leave Auru as is, minus Illusion. People are quick to try and call out its coverage moves, especially those that hit steel types, but really, what is Aurumoth without those moves? What would it be able to do with Quiver Dance that is not completely outdone by Volcarona? While Volcarona's typing is hardly amazing defensively, it has fewer exploitable weaknesses, arguably giving it more opportunities to set up. It is faster, stronger, and has an arguably better STAB in Fire. Sure there are also things it can't hit with its standard set, namely Dragons like Dragonite, but those are less common in general, especially as defensive mons, than Steel types, and one of the most common is Cyclohm, who is hit hard by HP Ground, a fairly standard move for Volcarona. Yeah, sure, Auru has some advantages, but in the role of QD sweeper, it would be utterly outclassed if it could not hit steel types.

That being said, even with the ability to slam Steel types, it is hardly going to be overpowering. First off, Overheat is super overrated. With Illusion, Overheat can be used as a tactical strike to take out something unsuspecting. Without Illusion, not only is it a lot worse at it, but, assuming it is using No Guard instead, it is almost completely overshadowed by Focus Blast. And Focus Blast itself is perfectly fine, because almost nothing is going to make Aurumoth overpowered when it can no longer set up easily. Not only will it struggle to set up reliably, but it can still be revenged with scarfers and priority and the like.

Ultimately, I think people are seeing all the different options and are forgetting that, past a point where you can hit everything that coverage is irrelevant, and Aurumoth is far from the only Pokemon that can hit almost everything. It has flaws, and we should not be overreacting, especially when the most powerful aspect of it is already being removed. Maybe I am wrong in my assessment, but a principle of our updates is to be conservative where we can, and I'd rather try seeing what happens without Illusion and potentially updating at the next gen if we are wrong, than overreacting and making Auru irrelevant.

Also, since it has been brought up, we are absolutely not getting rid of Quiver Dance. I say this as the GL. Aurumoth's entire identity has been Illusion QD. With our earlier changes, we have officially said that the Illusion part was more problematic, and arguably less defining, than Quiver Dance. I agree with this assessment, and so getting rid of Illusion is perfectly fine. But getting rid of QD as well erases everything Aurumoth is, and completely violates our update principles. Its not happening.
 

snake

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Do you have evidence of TG Aurumoth being broken? It's been in the metagame for such a long time, and this is the first I've heard of it being really dumb. Stall teams have Unaware Clefable to combat this, and is extremely common on this archetype's teams, so I'm not sure what the issue is on this front. Balance teams should have mons that can outspeed and KO it, and it's even easier than QD because it still has weaker special bulk. Offensive teams laugh at it. This isn't Illusion Aurumoth, where you could lure in a Toxapex and set up TG on the switch. You know that it's Aurumoth, so you have a much easier time switching into it than ever before. Stop overreacting, unless you can show that TG Aurumoth is really this powerful.

Look at Cawmodore. It SHOULD be a really great Belly Drum sweeper, but you don't exactly see it stomping teams left and right. If TG Auru is this good, where is it, and why isn't it curbstomping the meta? Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's good in battle. I know our metagame has a small playerbase, but if TG Auru were as good as you're making it out, we'd see a least a little bit.
 
Do you have evidence of TG Aurumoth being broken? It's been in the metagame for such a long time, and this is the first I've heard of it being really dumb. Stall teams have Unaware Clefable to combat this, and is extremely common on this archetype's teams, so I'm not sure what the issue is on this front. Balance teams should have mons that can outspeed and KO it, and it's even easier than QD because it still has weaker special bulk. Offensive teams laugh at it. This isn't Illusion Aurumoth, where you could lure in a Toxapex and set up TG on the switch. You know that it's Aurumoth, so you have a much easier time switching into it than ever before. Stop overreacting, unless you can show that TG Aurumoth is really this powerful.

Look at Cawmodore. It SHOULD be a really great Belly Drum sweeper, but you don't exactly see it stomping teams left and right. If TG Auru is this good, where is it, and why isn't it curbstomping the meta? Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's good in battle. I know our metagame has a small playerbase, but if TG Auru were as good as you're making it out, we'd see a least a little bit.
Touche. I have changed my mind. Tail Glow should stay.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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I was originally going to make a long post about how Overheat should be removed. But, I've changed my mind on the subject.

My original argument against Overheat was that Inferno Overdrive gave you extremely powerful fire coverage without a real cost, Fire is really great neutrally so not many things can switch into an Inferno Overdrive, and it was strong and accurate on the Illusion set. But, now that Illusion is gone, this argument really falls apart.

  • The entire tactic of using Inferno Overdrive relied on the successful usage of Illusion, as it required you to lure the correct Pokemon in and hit them with it, and can even be used against Aurumoth's other checks. Without Illusion, this sort of strategy just doesn't work as effectively. As they know exactly when Aurumoth comes in, the opponent can switch in the appropriate check that won't be beaten by a massive ball of fire. And if you use the Z-Move in the wrong situation? Then your stuck back with the normal fire move that cause a massive SpA drop after using it, forcing you to re-setup your QD boosts or simply switch out. Hardly without a cost.
  • While, yes, Overheat is a great move neutrally, Hydro Pump is even better. It even allows it to hit stuff like Colossoil on the switch, and is a very strong move to use if you are unsure of what is switching in, including on Steel types such as Magearna. Furthermore, Hydro Pump has perfect accuracy under No Guard, which will most likely be the preferred ability, meaning that it may far more usage thanks to its better neutral coverage. And while Inferno Overdrive is stronger, its ot by much, meaning that a possible Hydro Vortex can hit just as hard against foes.
  • No Guard really screws this one up too. Pre-Update, the coverage that Aurumoth gets has one of two main problems: It's either too weak (in the form of Shadow Ball and to an extent Ice Beam) or has low accuracy (in the form of Thunder, Focus Miss, Hydro Pump, and Blizzard). Now, Aurumoth has multiple really strong perfect accuracy moves, meaning that Overheat's primary niche, being strong and accurate, is completely obsolete. While still very much stronger than the other coverage moves, that SpA drop looks very unappealing, as it forces you to completely stop your momentum and set up again even after just one use. Instead, you can just spam move like Thunder and Focus Blast which are worse coverage in a sense, b ut have practically zero consequences for use.
What I'm saying is that Illusion's removal and the rising popularity of No Guard will cause it Overheat to become obsolete compared to the other options, and its major uses currently will similarly become useless. So what's the point of removing it if no one will use it?
 
I was originally going to make a long post about how Overheat should be removed. But, I've changed my mind on the subject.

My original argument against Overheat was that Inferno Overdrive gave you extremely powerful fire coverage without a real cost, Fire is really great neutrally so not many things can switch into an Inferno Overdrive, and it was strong and accurate on the Illusion set. But, now that Illusion is gone, this argument really falls apart.

  • The entire tactic of using Inferno Overdrive relied on the successful usage of Illusion, as it required you to lure the correct Pokemon in and hit them with it, and can even be used against Aurumoth's other checks. Without Illusion, this sort of strategy just doesn't work as effectively. As they know exactly when Aurumoth comes in, the opponent can switch in the appropriate check that won't be beaten by a massive ball of fire. And if you use the Z-Move in the wrong situation? Then your stuck back with the normal fire move that cause a massive SpA drop after using it, forcing you to re-setup your QD boosts or simply switch out. Hardly without a cost.
  • While, yes, Overheat is a great move neutrally, Hydro Pump is even better. It even allows it to hit stuff like Colossoil on the switch, and is a very strong move to use if you are unsure of what is switching in, including on Steel types such as Magearna. Furthermore, Hydro Pump has perfect accuracy under No Guard, which will most likely be the preferred ability, meaning that it may far more usage thanks to its better neutral coverage. And while Inferno Overdrive is stronger, its ot by much, meaning that a possible Hydro Vortex can hit just as hard against foes.
  • No Guard really screws this one up too. Pre-Update, the coverage that Aurumoth gets has one of two main problems: It's either too weak (in the form of Shadow Ball and to an extent Ice Beam) or has low accuracy (in the form of Thunder, Focus Miss, Hydro Pump, and Blizzard). Now, Aurumoth has multiple really strong perfect accuracy moves, meaning that Overheat's primary niche, being strong and accurate, is completely obsolete. While still very much stronger than the other coverage moves, that SpA drop looks very unappealing, as it forces you to completely stop your momentum and set up again even after just one use. Instead, you can just spam move like Thunder and Focus Blast which are worse coverage in a sense, b ut have practically zero consequences for use.
What I'm saying is that Illusion's removal and the rising popularity of No Guard will cause it Overheat to become obsolete compared to the other options, and its major uses currently will similarly become useless. So what's the point of removing it if no one will use it?
Yeah, I agree with you on this one. With the removal of Illusion, No Guard will become the best ability to use for Auru, and with that, Overheat is obsolete, so it doesnt even matter anymore. The two moves that seemed most suspect were Tail Glow and Overheat. Tail Glow was proposed by me, but I retracted it later after realizing it is nowhere to be seen. Overheat on the other hand was proposed because the fire coverage seemed strong, but the No Guard Vs. Illusion argument makes the whole thing fall apart. As such, I think removing Illusion is enough.
 
I think that Overheat will still be a usable move after removing Illusion, even though No Guard will certainly become the preferred ability, Weak Armor stays a perfectly competitive ability, Sets using this one will choose Overheat rather than Focus Blast, and Overheat is way more effective against Jirachi, Magearna, Celesteela (this one doesn't like Thunder though) and M-Scizor than All-Out Pummeling. Nonetheless, I still think that removing Illusion is enough too.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
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Hello everyone. I gave this a couple more days than I had originally planned because I wanted to give the pro-removal side of the discussion a chance to deliver a solid argument as to why Overheat or Focus Blast should be removed. Unfortunately, I don't believe any of the arguments presented by the pro-removal camp were particularly convincing. I felt that the focus on Incinerate in several posts was more of a distraction than anything because they did not go into detail as to how Overheat was too powerful. It seemed like there was an assumption on their part that it was agreed that Overheat was too powerful, which was not the case. Likewise, the comparison to Volcorona seemed weak given that it was comparing the performance of Volcorona in OU to Aurumoth in CAP, which is a flawed comparison because there is simply no reason to use OU performance as justification for CAP metagame performance. We're not OU, so don't use OU as reasoning for updates.

In contrast, the supporters for no further changes did a better job in addressing how the Illusion nerf will potentially change how Aurumoth works and how this would affect Overheat and Focus Blast. Overall, the lack of a convincing argument for the removal of Overheat and Focus Blast, combined with the quality of the posts advocating for no further changes, has led me to decide that Aurumoth will receive no further changes to its competitive movepool. This means there will be no further removals to Aurumoth.

On move additions, I agree that Aurumoth's movepool is developed enough that it does not need any competitive move additions. Therefore, Aurumoth will not be receiving a boost to its physical movepool as some posts have discussed. I won't ban Dazzling Gleam outright at this point, so it will remain an option for discussion when we get to discussion flavour movepool additions.

Now, with no further delay, I'd like to open this thread back up to flavour ability discussion. There was already a great deal of discussion on flavour abilities previously in this thread, so I'd like to see similar posts now. My goal for this stage is to establish a slate of around a half dozen abilities for us to choose from and then put them to a poll. Given that this is a flavour stage, the guiding questions are going to be centered primarily on ensuring the new ability will not be competitive in nature.

What ability would you like to see as Aurumoth's new flavour ability, and why do you believe this ability has little or none competitive merit? If there is a chance of it overshadowing Weak Armour and No Guard on a set, then it is too competitive to be a flavour ability.
 

snake

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I'd like to see Heavy Metal. Heavy Metal doubles Aurumoth's weight, but it already resists Grass Knot and Low Kick, and it doesn't have access to Heavy Slam, so it doesn't have much going for it. The only thing you could use it for is to take less damage from Naviathan's Heavy Slam, but really...

(Not Heavy Metal Auru)
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Heavy Slam (60 BP) vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 132-156 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Naviathan is better off using Waterfall anyways, and Aurumoth could be taking advantage of an easy Weak Armor boost instead.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, Heavy Metal is flavorful because Aurumoth is made of gold, and gold is a heavy metal. I think this is an interesting take on Aurumoth, and it lines up well with its other two abilities that don't focus on its Psychic-typing.
 
For me, I'd like to see Illuminate or Telepathy. Illuminate makes sense because of Tail Glow (and it's a bug, and it is lacking some sort of bug ability), and Telepathy induces the Psychic type, which neither of its other abilities do. Aside from that, I'd be okay with Heavy Metal if the first two aren't an option. I think it would be fine for the same reasons snake_rattler mentioned above.
 
Among abilities which haven't been discussed yet, I have noticed:
- Clear Body relates to Aurumoth's shiny shell, though I have no idea whether blocking Intimidate could make physical sets overbearing.
- Inner Focus (and maybe Own Tempo) relate to Aurumoth's Psychic typing and don't feel immensely overpowered, though I'd rather have someone with actual battle experience decide. Inner Focus also fits well with Argalis's Pokédex entries.
 
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