CAP Updates: Aurumoth Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
I see no reason behind Aurumoth needing any other competitive ability besides the ones already present in No Guard and Weak Armor. Those two abilities are perfectly viable, even though they're a bit riskier to use hey doesn't that sound familiar. Adding another competitive ability to Aurumoth's already pretty good set of abilities would just make it broken...again.

Another thing that makes Aurumoth hard to fight is its unpredictability, similar to a banned techno-bug who shall not be named. Illusion was a prime factor to this problem, as you have literally no idea what is Aurumoth and what's not. While Illusion can be seen as a major problem with this, its massive movepool and coverage can also be seen as a major problem with this. From team preview, you do not know which boosting move it has, or what coverage option it will be carrying. It gets some pretty crazy coverage in the form of Thunder, Overheat (and Firium Z), Ice Beam/Blizzard, Hydro Pump/Surf, Focus Blast/Close Combat, and so many other various moves. All of these get perfect accuracy through No Guard, and that's not even covering its STABs or utility options. Knowing that most Aurumoth sets consist of Booster/STAB/STAB/Filler, that gives Aurumoth a scary amount of possible options to adapt to a team. You could try and switch in a Kitsunoh, for example expecting an Ice Beam, and instead get an Overheat to the face. I would like to propose that some of these options be removed, as it gives it a bit too much diversity in its current state.
 
To get this out of the way: I prefer for all caps to have 3 good abilities that all have relatively equal viability. Although I think that personally, I believe we should go with two competitive abilities, being no guard and weak armor, and one flavor ability.

It should be replaced with a flavor ability per CAP's (post-Aurumoth) policy that no CAP should get 3 competitive abilities.
There is also the Flavor Ability policy.

I believe, of course, that we should look into Aurumoth's moveset and thoroughly analyze its moves that are deemed "centralizing." With that term I generally mean the moves Aurumoth has that push it's illusion sweeping abilities (or lack there of if we are assuming it is going be removed, which I believe is the right way to lead discussion). I do not, however, feel as if we are obligated to remove anything from the golden bug, nor am I going to advocate for gutting the bug/psychic behemoth. In saying this, I do know that it is completely possibly for the argument of "removing moves will make Aurumoth less cappy" or "Aurumoth is not Auru without insert move here." To that I say, try to have an open mind about these CAP updates, there is no need to rule anything out yet.
 
I personally think this Pokémon is amazing and is a great sweeper, support or even a sp wall. I think that is all spiffing and all but I believe that I shouldn't have the move hail as while combined with blizzard is a bit to ' icy' for a non ice type.

When it comes to weaknesses is that I believe that this Pokémon looks quite.. Manovrable you see I'd see this Pokémon as one that moves round its opponent. Like it's Pokémon is unlikely to hit so it should have minimize in its move set.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I also agree that, while igs ability Illusion is the main problem, its movepool needs to be addressed as well. It can dismantle any check thinkable with the right move, and I believe that we should decide on a list of things Auro should threaten as of now and things that should threaten it. That would guide the direction of the discussion easier.
 
I agree that removing Illusion while keeping Moth's boosting possibilities is a step in the right direction. That said, I think both No Guard and Weak Armor are pretty good options for it, so I'm inclined to giving it something either flavor or immensely niche (because I mostly agree with Snorlax on that CAPmons should have 3 abilities, if which at least two are somewhat usable, I'm leaning on the side of "immensely niche" here slightly). I don't think we need a third major, highly setup-enabling ability.

When it comes to movepool, I don't think I can name a move without which "Aurumoth would stop being Aurumoth". For me, Aurumoth is defined by multiple ways of boosting (something Naviathan wanted to be :-) ) and the widespread coverage with a distinct weakness in lacking inconsequential Fire. That's also IMO why Aurumoth thrives so much off Firium Z - having that one hit of inconsequential Fire coverage (of insane base power as a bonus) is what helps Moth so much.
That said, I think Moth should retain its widespread coverage - getting nerfed by the loss of Illusion may well be enough and I think the unpredictability of its set is quite a defining trait. Defining trait that is not inherently unhealthy, the Illusion/preview mind games with a single missed 50/50 often losing the battle was what was unhealthy.
Even though this might be a theme-skipping, I believe it so firmly that I'd even support giving Aurumoth additional coverage in Dazzling Gleam as a part of its consistency updates. (Well, if any of the major coverage options has to go, be it Blizzard.)
 
I would say keeping Aurumoth's boosting capabilities and wide movepool intact would be best to retain the High Reward aspect of it. Illusion seems to be the problem here due to the fact that it is a good ability for a 'Mon that wants to set up a boost. (Imagine if Zoroark was better now :P)
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Removing Illlusion for Aurumoth is a really big nerf. Even with powerful boosting options, stat spread, movepool, and coupled with unique abilities, I think that Aurumoth will be a balanced, top tier threat in the metagame. It's already mainly forced to run its STABs to get the damage output it wants, it'll be much easier to check it with a scarfer and either a) force it out after setting up or b) make it attack and not set up. While you can compare Aurumoth to Genesect in that they're both Bug-types with sub-Base 100 Speed, really wide coverage, and excellent stats all, this isn't mon with Download-boosted attacks pivoting everywhere either. So in my opinion, we should not remove any other aspects of Aurumoth aside from Illusion.
 
As several users said, it would be best to retain Aurumoth's high reward by keeping its access to several boosting moves. However, removing Illusion allows for players to take risks while setting up even a single Quiver Dance to sweep, and it would have to run both of its STABs regardless. As such, it would only be able to choose between one of Ice Beam / Blizzard, Focus Blast, or Thunderbolt / Thunder.

EDIT: Illuminate sounds tasty enough for Aurumoth's design, and it's quite useless as well. I'm all for a flavor-based replacement, fellow users.
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Illusion Auromoth is really what makes it stupid at the end of the day. Yes its movepool + two great setup moves also contribute to the top tier threat it is currently, but the mindgames that Illusion adds on top of this is the straw that breaks the camels back on this one. Like others had mentioned, getting rid of Illusion is already big so I dont think any other nerfs to its movepool is that necessary and maybe we can add a less broken ability thats still useful alongside No Guard to compensate (was thinking maybe Magic Guard of Sheer Force?).
 
Illusion Auromoth is really what makes it stupid at the end of the day. Yes its movepool + two great setup moves also contribute to the top tier threat it is currently, but the mindgames that Illusion adds on top of this is the straw that breaks the camels back on this one. Like others had mentioned, getting rid of Illusion is already big so I dont think any other nerfs to its movepool is that necessary and maybe we can add a less broken ability thats still useful alongside No Guard to compensate (was thinking maybe Magic Guard of Sheer Force?).
Sheer Force would be interesting. Aurumoth doesn't rely on secondary effects, anyway... He'd definitely appreciate the occasional added damage on his coverage.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Sheer Force would be interesting. Aurumoth doesn't rely on secondary effects, anyway... He'd definitely appreciate the occasional added damage on his coverage.
Sheer force on 117 spa (lando-i has 115) that can boost itself with quiver dance and enough speed that can be scarfed?
No thanks
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Illusion Auromoth is really what makes it stupid at the end of the day. Yes its movepool + two great setup moves also contribute to the top tier threat it is currently, but the mindgames that Illusion adds on top of this is the straw that breaks the camels back on this one. Like others had mentioned, getting rid of Illusion is already big so I dont think any other nerfs to its movepool is that necessary and maybe we can add a less broken ability thats still useful alongside No Guard to compensate (was thinking maybe Magic Guard of Sheer Force?).
Sheer Force would be interesting. Aurumoth doesn't rely on secondary effects, anyway... He'd definitely appreciate the occasional added damage on his coverage.
Both of these abilities make Life Orb recoilless, one gives it more power, the other gives it hazard immunity. Sheer Force boosted moves include: Bug Buzz, Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Thunder, Blizzard, and Focus Blast, leaving only Hydro Pump, Surf, and Overheat that don't get the massive power boost. Ironically, Sheer Force would barely buff the set that's objectively less powerful than any QD set, Dragon Dance, because only Zen Headbutt gets the Sheer Force boost.

Magic Guard and Sheer Force are so much better than No Guard, particularly Magic Guard on a rocks-weak mon, it's not even funny.
 
I'm just going to throw out my suggestion for Illusion's replacement ability, and that would be Illuminate. It's quite literally useless in battle, it has excellent flavor on Aurumoth considering it has a glowing tail / learns Tail Glow, and as an added bonus it even sounds kinda like Illusion.

And yeah, I'm sticking to what I said earlier about the potential Illusion replacement. It should be entirely flavor or highly niche at best. Not an ability that lets it 2HKO Unaware Clefable without entry hazards.
 

SHSP

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributor
Moderator
Auru does not need another competitive ability to replace Illusion. No Guard and gen 7s Weak Armor are solid, and there isn't a lot of reason for Auru to have another option. The base framework of the mon-i.e. its setup moves and coverage- is still gonna be strong and giving it more ways to abuse it does not sit well with me at all. It needs to be niche or useless, leaning more to the useless side of the spectrum.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I'm in complete agreement with sparktrain regarding an ability. Auru does not need a third competitive ability, and so we shouldn't give it one. And as for a replacement, Illuminate is as good as any.
 
And as for a replacement, Illuminate is as good as any.
You know what, this proposal is starting to grow on me. Aurumoth has great abilities, great moveset, and decent stats, especially after any boost, be it Weak Armor, Tail Glow, Dragon Dance, or Quiver Dance. We should be erring on the side of "a bit weak" than "still too damn stronk", anyway.
Plus, I like the idea of Mollux and Aurumoth: Lightbringers. Mollux lights your room with a soft lava glow, while Aurumoth is outside a window, contorting around, attracted to its own harsh glow and scarin' the living shit out of anybody on the other side of the window. The image makes me laugh. (3
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
For the third ability, I like Anger Point, as it's flavorful and in keeping with the "risky" theme.
 
Basically just ripping off Venomoth, but how about Shield Dust or Wonder Skin? Or would that cause problems with moves like T-Wave and Scald?
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Illuminate is always a go-to option but I personally like the idea of either Swarm or Pressure. Swarm is pretty not great of an ability, and it fits the whole bug theme. Pressure is cool cause the legendary status of our bug.
 
Illuminate, Telepathy or Unnerve?

Unnerve may be a bit too powerful however, but I've never been a big berry user.

I'm not a fan of Pressure simply because of how much it does actually pressurize players with low PP and low Accuracy moves vs a mon like Aurumoth.
 
Honestly, I think replacing Illusion with Illuminate is the way to go here. Illusion is what causes Aurumoth to be extremely painful to deal with, and Illuminate is a fitting flavor Ability. I'm all for this, and I wouldn't change its movepool, either. Removing Illusion and enforcing the use of No Guard and Weak Armor, two good Abilities in their own right, already makes Aurumoth that much more balanced, and inaccurate move spamming sounds hella fun given its access to Blizzard, Thunder and Focus Blast.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Illuminate helps you farm more EXP from higher rate of wild encounters, at the risk of high level wild mons KOing you. VARY RIKSY.

Also Heavy Metal makes Auru much more Metal than Scizor ever will be. :)
 
If there is an Ability that would be interesting for Auromoth it would be Rattled. It's an extremely niche and risky Ability, making it overshadowed by the other two Abilities, but it would be quite fun to get a slight boost in Speed when hit by three of its weaknesses, like a random Knock Off.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top