CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 6 - Secondary Ability Discussion

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Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

In all honesty, not really. Comatose is already an incredible ability that outclasses most of our other choices. Pair that with CAP23's incredible typing (Offensive and Defensive) and its good stat spread, we already have a very potent wallbreaker that WILL shake up the meta game. Adding additional ability just cause is a. pointless and b. could make CAP23 too powerful (much like a flying /fighting type CAP we know and love). I personally think that No Competitive Ability is our best option.

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

As of current, I don't see any options that are particularly good options. Volt Absorb is a good ability that helps deal with Volt-Turn, but it could give CAP23 too many options against too many mons. Shield Dust is currently objectively worse then Comatose, with the exception to flinch hax immunity and Comatose's Lack of Rest. Strong Jaw could be an option, helping fight its targets with boosted Psy/Ice Fangs. I don't personally like the idea, as there are other ways to boost CAP23, but it is an option. Tough Claws could give it more powerful, like Strong Jaw , but it may be too much power.
 
Here are my thoughts on some of the abilities

Shield Dust: This ability is a joke, it's 100% outclassed by Comatose. Air Slash flinches are irrelevant, given that we are faster than Tomohawk. Sure, there's nothing wrong with giving CAP23 this, but it would never see use outside of sets that use Rest, and those would work with any ability, as they don't even care about status prevention, one of the main reasons for running Shield Dust, as Rest already cures any status. Therefore, Shield Dust is competitively useless.

Early Bird: I don't see why this is necessary. CAP23 is supposed to be an offensive trapper, and this ability only help defensive sets. Having 2 defensively oriented abilities seems more harmful than helpful.

Pressure: Another ability aimed towards stalling, only this time is trying to promote PP stalling as a tactic for CAP23. This seems adding just for the sake of adding, and again, I don't see why we should go this route.

I still support No Competitive Ability, Comatose is a powerful ability, and is useful for both offensive and defensive sets, so another one is not necessary.
 
Pretty much everything that needed to be said has been said already, but I still want to throw in my support for No Competitive Ability. If we're going for a secondary ability instead, we're going to need something with a distinct niche (a.k.a. no Shield Dust).

Pressure might sound tempting because of its synergy with trapping, but since CAP is an offensive trapper it isn't going to stall for long, especially with LO and no recovery move. Maybe if it uses Rest but I still don't like the look of it.

Volt Absorb
would be telegraphed since no Comatose and doesn't really help with Koko which can still U-Turn out or hit us with Dazzling Gleam (although it can't OHKO: 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 252-299 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, changed Giratina's stats with CAP's). Zapdos won't use Electric moves freely once Volt Absorb is revealed and sometimes uses U-Turn as well.

Lastly, I think we should be careful with any power-boosting ability. 133 Attack with Dragon/Ghost STAB and likely decent coverage is already a lot, big boosts are going to turn CAP into a proficient wallbreaker.
 
Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

I don’t think CAP23 needs a secondary ability in the sense that Comatose is already incredibly strong on it’s own. However, leaving the ability to run Rest leads me to believe it should at least have a useable second ability. My vote is Cursed Body as a flavorful secondary ability that fits in commonly with Ghost-types, and does have some level of competitive potential, in that it can shut down U-turn occasionally, as well as single-move walls that we want to trap, this increasing our ability to beat some of the targets.

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

Strong Jaw
and Mold Breaker both sound like very strong options to increase CAP23’s ability to trap certain targets, like Tomohawk and Toxapex via Psychic Fangs, as well as Cyclohm and Sableye-Mega.
 
I'm game for either Mold Breaker, Early Bird, or No Competitive Ability. One for each boost. Mold Breaker seems like easily the best to to compliment Comatose as an offensive ability by dodging Cyclohm and Garchomp's ugly abilities. Early Bird would provide some interesting longevity since I doubt we'll get a different recovery move outside Rest, but frankly, I don't feel it's strictly necessary. Mostly just an interesting possibility to expand on sets, especially non-trapping sets. And No Competitive Ability of course is fine with me too, since that just serves to emphasize Comatose.
 
My vote is Cursed Body as a flavorful secondary ability that fits in commonly with Ghost-types, and does have some level of competitive potential, in that it can shut down U-turn occasionally, as well as single-move walls that we want to trap, this increasing our ability to beat some of the targets.
.

that wouldn't matter as the the disabling effect of cursed body doesn't stop the switch from these moves.
 
In reference to Volt Absorb, I want to talk about the other electric-immune abilities: Lightning Rod and Motor Drive. They each boost the recipient's Sp. Atk and Spe stat by one stage, respectively. Lightning Rod could be used as a Volt Switch absorber, without an added benefit to CAP23. Motor Drive would make CAP23 harder to revenge kill and potentially outspeeds some trapped Pokemon.
 

Deck Knight

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A second round of commentary / suggestions:

I like Pressure because it works wonders as support against bulky threats along with Spite. Often these threats only have one decent attacking move, and Pressure + Spite forces them into full defense much sooner. Pressure also innately lets our CAP win stall wars by halving the number of times opponents can use attacks or offensive status.

Rattled is a controversial suggestion, but it punishes U-turn SPAM in a way that pressures many threats to CAP who now need a Scarf to outrun it after a boost. Notably this excludes ScarfChomp and ScarfKit, so the ability would still habe viable checks.

Interestingly, Rattled also makes Ferrothorn more dangerous because it will get maximum damage on Gyro Ball against a +1 CAP. The speed gain for staying in on Pursuit is marginal, as CAP already outspeeds most Dark types and Weavile has Ice Shard anyway.

Finally, Oblivious grants Taunt immunity, which is a very minor benefit overall but not without some level of usefullness.
 
In reference to Volt Absorb, I want to talk about the other electric-immune abilities: Lightning Rod and Motor Drive. They each boost the recipient's Sp. Atk and Spe stat by one stage, respectively. Lightning Rod could be used as a Volt Switch absorber, without an added benefit to CAP23. Motor Drive would make CAP23 harder to revenge kill and potentially outspeeds some trapped Pokemon.
I think it is very unhealthy to mess with our SpA or Speed.
Being able to boost our SpA means that we may be able to threaten Mons we should not be able to.

Example: With an SpA-neutral nature and a small investment of 72 points: we can do this:
+1 72 SpA Giratina Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 172-204 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Motor Drive is not better, the Speed Boost enables us to outspeed a whole lot of our checks such as Syclant, Alolan Ninetales, Latios, Garchomp, Kitsunoh, Gengar, Greninja(-Ash), M-Sharpedo, M-Diancie and Kerfluffle. Most, if not all of them, rely on their higher Speed to be able to check us.

Both are things we definitely shouldn't want.

Volt Absorb is the only electric immunity ability we should consider, the reasons why were already mentioned in my last post and by others as well.
 
Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

I have to say that I find myself firmly in the No Competitive Ability camp with this one. As others have pointed out, Comatose addresses our goals for this CAP with remarkable effectiveness already, and giving it another competitive ability would bring us closer to making just another 'generically good' CAP rather than allowing ourselves to be constrained by the limits we selected in the first place.

To put it another way, CAP23 already has:
  • a well-defined concept that gives it a place in the metagame without forcing it to dominate;
  • a defensive typing with a truckload of useful resistances/immunities for its concept;
  • a stat spread that many other physically-oriented Pokémon would metaphorically kill for; and
  • a primary ability which functionally gives it a total immunity to status.
I'd argue that, if we can't make an effective trapper with these gifts and a sensible movepool - i.e., without another competitive ability - then we're just asking for trouble.
 

Deck Knight

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Honestly, will people stop posting Hidden Power Fire calcs against M-Scizor as if it's worth two moveslots AND EV investment *just* to be able to 2HKO it (and by extension Ferrothorn) specifically?

I mean, we could run Max SpA Life Orb sets and do that too. It doesn't make such a set viable.
 
Everybody has already said my thoughts on the matter, I'm rooting for No Competitive Ability, since Comatose is already a great ability that allows CAP23 to accomplish it's main goal. Should we go for Secondary Ability, I vote for Oblivious. Oblivious is a flavorful secondary ability that allows CAP23 to be immune to Taunt, which is a generally great benefit. It also gives it the chance to run a RestTalk set without being restricted by Comatose.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I just found that Strong Jaw allows to CAP23 to deal better with the "target and dismantle" list bar Pyroak with only two moves:

- Tomohawk, Toxapex, Arghonaut, Mollux and Mega Venusaur with Psychic Fangs
- Tangrowth and Zapdos with Ice Fang

How can we beat these targets if they will be always switched out, since they can be beaten with a single set with these two moves?
 

snake

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I just found that Strong Jaw allows to CAP23 to deal better with the "target and dismantle" list bar Pyroak with only two moves:

- Tomohawk, Toxapex, Arghonaut, Mollux and Mega Venusaur with Psychic Fangs
- Tangrowth and Zapdos with Ice Fang

How can we beat these targets if they will be always switched out, since they can be beaten with a single set with these two moves?
User post:
The counterargument is this: how do we beat them if they wall us? If they swap in and just outright wall us, then we can't "dismantle" them.

---

TL post:
To those who are supporting Strong Jaw or Tough Claws, we need offensive calcs on these. They might have been said in the previous thread, but they also need to be here. I'm not particularly happy with Tough Claws as a secondary because it seems very powerful, but Strong Jaw seems more acceptable. Again, calcs will be necessary to make an accurate judgement.
 

Deck Knight

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Strong Jaw and Tough Claws at this point are both completely unnecessary and powerful options that will already push a massively loaded out mon even further.

If we're going to go with an offensive enabler, Rock Head gives Brave Bird and Wild Charge (among other moves) no recoil. Brave Bird demoloshes everything on both lists except Toxapex and Zapdos, both of which are already rendered impotent by our stat spread. Pyroak also can't touch us and any ability that allows CAP to use Rest *will* beat it 1vs1. Perhaps that might not be a glamorous route, but there's a word for a Pokemon that can beat every defensive check in the tier at once: Broken.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Here are my current thoughts right now:

No Competitive Ability: Seems to be the most popular opinion right now, mostly based on the idea of how strong Comatose is of an ability and either a) its an unnecessary addition since Comatose already covers all bases or b) we would have to give it an equally strong ability to compete with it, which makes it overpowered. NCA is almost guaranteed to get on the slate at this point in terms of its discussion alone (and it'd probably end up on the poll anyways). The one thing that is bugging me though is that a number of arguments for NCA consist of, "Comatose is OP because it blocks status" which seems like a weak argument. So, why does Comatose's status blocking guarantee that a secondary ability is an unnecessary addition?

Strong Jaw:
One of the major arguments for them is that it allows us to beat Tomohawk without relying on Toxic strategies. However, it has easily been rebutted because of the possibility of Z-Zen Headbutt and Z-Brave Bird to take it down. Focusing on Tomohawk is incredibly restrictive for the ability itself, so encourage the supporters of Strong Jaw to look at beneficial match ups this ability provides besides Tomohawk, since there are already other more common ways to beat it. As snake_rattler said, please post calcs for any matchups regarding Strong Jaw, as an argument with no evidence is a bad argument.

Volt Absorb: With Comatose's activation message, Volt Absorb no longer can spiral out of control as easily from switching into a Scarf Plasmanta's T-Bolt without warning, so it is a far more viable option for discussion. However, the issue still applies if its desired effect at stopping Volt Switch is actually something we should really be investing time or if its an otherwise niche ability that focuses on something we don't really have to worry about, especially with U-turn rising in popularity. We already heavily resist VoltTurn thanks to our type, and our stats actually make us even more resistant to Volt Switch, so wouldn't an ability that would further adress it seem unnecessary and redundant? Even then, most Volt Switch users have other options that can severely dent CAP23: Rotom-Wash can now burn us, Tapu Koko can U-turn out itself, and both Cyclohm and Krilowatt carry Ice Beam, which can heavily damage CAP23. I think this needs a bit more discussion to fully flesh out why we can't just be resistent to VoltTurn and show how CAP23 can beat these Volt Switchers once they have got them trapped in.

Early Bird: Considering how we now have our stats set in stone, giving a mon with such an incredible type and very respectable stats a better rest ,which Early Bird aims to do, could very much cross the line a bit in terms of our power. It pretty much much requires the opposing Pokemon team to 2HKO CAP23 from full health, otherwise it could very easily Rest stall out everything that does not fit into this category. I'm a bit worried about this ability currently, and would need more information to show that it won't get out of hand.

Mold Breaker: This is could actually be really interesting. It eliminates any possibility of Shield Dust Cyclohm stopping our traps, can break through Arghonaut's Unaware, and gives us greater possible coverage to utilize since we can Mold Break through the immune ability mons like Mollux and Voodoom. My main concern right now is if that is enough to be considered a good secondary ability, but it is otherwise a solid contender.

Although it is an interesting concept, I cannot currently see Pressure as anymore than a Spite niche, so it needs more information.
 

nyttyn

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Why does Comatose's status blocking guarantee that a secondary ability is an unnecessary addition?

Three reasons, as I see it.

1) CAP 23 is already strong enough as things stand, and does not necessarily need additional power at this time that any viable secondary ability would provide.
2) No secondary ability that does not focus on direct power provides a niche that is particularly worth pursuing (Volt Absorb, Mold Breaker)
3) Additional flexibility in the movepool stage is preferred to additional power for a area of CAP 23 where it already excels at.

Considering these three points, it does not seem prudent at this time to consider a secondary ability of any major worth, both out of concerns of ensuring CAP 23 does not over-shoot a balanced (if at this point rather high powered) place, as well as a desire to leave us some additional wiggle room in the movepool stage.

also p.s. Toxictrap does what Pressure wants to but considerably faster, beating out only steel types, which - you know, we don't want to beat in the first place.
 
Pressure, Clear Body, Sheer Force, Sticky Hold, and Suction Cups are viable options IMHO.

Pressure for the Special Stall to drain PP, Clear Body to really make Landorus unable to come in without outright penalising them for doing so, Sheer Force for ridiculous damage and the ability to run a none Trap set as was discussed during concept, Sticky Hold to make Knock Off less damaging, and give options for none Z-Crystal sets, and Suction Cups to prevent the opponent from attempting to phase out through Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail.

Sheer Force is possibly the only real Competitive ability here, however, due to the +40% Damage buff.
 

G-Luke

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Pressure, Clear Body, Sheer Force, Sticky Hold, and Suction Cups are viable options IMHO.

Pressure for the Special Stall to drain PP, Clear Body to really make Landorus unable to come in without outright penalising them for doing so, Sheer Force for ridiculous damage and the ability to run a none Trap set as was discussed during concept, Sticky Hold to make Knock Off less damaging, and give options for none Z-Crystal sets, and Suction Cups to prevent the opponent from attempting to phase out through Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail.

Sheer Force is possibly the only real Competitive ability here, however, due to the +40% Damage buff.
Sheer Force removed the trapping effect of Spirit Shackle, so that's as anticoncept as they get. It was clearly shot down very early in primary ability discussion for this reason so I don't see why you brought it up again.

Sticky Hold does not promote the use ofuse of non Z-Crystal items, and does not help the concept otherwise.

Suction Cups allows CAP23 to set up without fear, possibly allowing it to use things it couldn't use as setup bait
 

Dogfish44

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So I've been pondering again (Terrible idea if you saw my last post), and the following question has generally been raised;

Why pick another ability to go with Comatose?

I think the first thing that a second ability adds is that it allows us to run Rest on some sets. NCA is okay there, but there are minor policy issues which would likely have to be circumvented to enable such sets to exist (Essentially "No Flavour Ability" would have to be removed from the slating for CAP23's abilities). So if people think a Rest set should be an option, even if a weaker one, then we need at least something. And, to be honest, I think a Rest set can provide an interesting alternative route for this 'mon to go, even if it's just using an ability such as Honey Gather.

The other main reason you'd want another ability is to kill specific threats more effectively - Tomohawk and Toxapex seem to be the obvious ones that we're not hitting hard enough according to most. The former has more attention, but can be Toxic stalled - and we have enough Special Bulk that we clobber it reasonably well anyway. The latter, assuming that it decides to swap to Black Sludge now that Arena Trap is dead, can do a semi-reasonable job of stalling us out and prodding us with Life Orb damage.

Now, I'm still more preferential to running Taunt/Heal Block as an anti-Toxapex method, but two abilities shine as very effective breakers to Toxapex. The first is, as regularly mentioned, Strong Jaws. The second would be Skill Link, which allows us to boost specificaly Bone Rush and Icicle Spear, the former being slightly stronger than Psychic Fangs, the latter being able to force Tomohawk into Roosting, to the point where you can very cleanly put up Toxic and then go back to pressuring. I also like the idea of Rock Head, boosting up Brave Bird and Head Smash specifically.

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 210-245 (69 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 161-190 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SS ~ EQ is looking at no more than 114-19+190 = 285 Damage after one round of Black Sludge, with a Recover and second Black Sludge bringing Toxapex up to 190. Whilst technically you can KO Toxapex from this point, you would need 3 hits at ma damage roll, or some other damage source.

With Bone Rush, however, the *worst* case (Assuming you don't miss) is 97-19+210 = 288 damage, with even middling rolls securing the KO.

---

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 134-160 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 3.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 285-350 (68.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 283-335 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A much closer affair, and although both SL and SJ can miss the KO through Leftovers, it's a rarity once again.
 

G-Luke

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So I've been pondering again (Terrible idea if you saw my last post), and the following question has generally been raised;

Why pick another ability to go with Comatose?

I think the first thing that a second ability adds is that it allows us to run Rest on some sets. NCA is okay there, but there are minor policy issues which would likely have to be circumvented to enable such sets to exist (Essentially "No Flavour Ability" would have to be removed from the slating for CAP23's abilities). So if people think a Rest set should be an option, even if a weaker one, then we need at least something. And, to be honest, I think a Rest set can provide an interesting alternative route for this 'mon to go, even if it's just using an ability such as Honey Gather.

The other main reason you'd want another ability is to kill specific threats more effectively - Tomohawk and Toxapex seem to be the obvious ones that we're not hitting hard enough according to most. The former has more attention, but can be Toxic stalled - and we have enough Special Bulk that we clobber it reasonably well anyway. The latter, assuming that it decides to swap to Black Sludge now that Arena Trap is dead, can do a semi-reasonable job of stalling us out and prodding us with Life Orb damage.

Now, I'm still more preferential to running Taunt/Heal Block as an anti-Toxapex method, but two abilities shine as very effective breakers to Toxapex. The first is, as regularly mentioned, Strong Jaws. The second would be Skill Link, which allows us to boost specificaly Bone Rush and Icicle Spear, the former being slightly stronger than Psychic Fangs, the latter being able to force Tomohawk into Roosting, to the point where you can very cleanly put up Toxic and then go back to pressuring. I also like the idea of Rock Head, boosting up Brave Bird and Head Smash specifically.

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 210-245 (69 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 161-190 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SS ~ EQ is looking at no more than 114-19+190 = 285 Damage after one round of Black Sludge, with a Recover and second Black Sludge bringing Toxapex up to 190. Whilst technically you can KO Toxapex from this point, you would need 3 hits at ma damage roll, or some other damage source.

With Bone Rush, however, the *worst* case (Assuming you don't miss) is 97-19+210 = 288 damage, with even middling rolls securing the KO.

---

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 134-160 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 3.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 285-350 (68.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 283-335 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A much closer affair, and although both SL and SJ can miss the KO through Leftovers, it's a rarity once again.
I actually have strong support for both Skill Link and Rock Head. This reminds me of Strategem and Levitate vs Technician. Levitate is the universally better ability, but Technician allows Strategem to tailor fit to eliminate certain threats (Landorus and Tomokawk with Hidden Power Ice and Flying respectively). I also think they both (especially the former) promotes the existence of non trapping sets, which has been said to be an important, but to a lesser degree, aspect of this concept. While I am not not opposed to NCA as an option, I still think that weaker but still useful abilities such as Pressure, Volt Absorb, and the above mentioned abilities all deserve more discussion.
 
Skill Link is my absolute favorite ability right now. It takes care of what we want (Pex and Tomo) without artificially increasing our power and maintaining our checks. I can’t post calcs on mobile but just know that I fully support Skill Link.
 

snake

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User post:

I still hold my stance on Volt Absorb in that we don't need it at all. Slapping on an immunity and expanding how many Pokemon we can annoy at once is just not necessary. Also, consider what you threaten with Volt Absorb: more offensive-ish mons. What you enable is CAP23 to stop an offensive technique while at the same time also enabling strong Rest sets, and Volt Absorb doesn't even take a moveslot. If we want to enable Rest sets, they should give offensive teams headaches as well.

One thing I do have to ask the Skill Link crowd though: Tomohawk can effectively Roost-stall out Icicle Spear, unlike Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs. Why is Skill Link any more desirable than Strong Jaw in this case? Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs (127.5) is also marginally stronger than Skill Link Icicle Spear (125) and Skill Link Bone Rush (125).
 
User post:

I still hold my stance on Volt Absorb in that we don't need it at all. Slapping on an immunity and expanding how many Pokemon we can annoy at once is just not necessary. Also, consider what you threaten with Volt Absorb: more offensive-ish mons. What you enable is CAP23 to stop an offensive technique while at the same time also enabling strong Rest sets, and Volt Absorb doesn't even take a moveslot. If we want to enable Rest sets, they should give offensive teams headaches as well.

One thing I do have to ask the Skill Link crowd though: Tomohawk can effectively Roost-stall out Icicle Spear, unlike Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs. Why is Skill Link any more desirable than Strong Jaw in this case? Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs (127.5) is also marginally stronger than Skill Link Icicle Spear (125) and Skill Link Bone Rush (125).
I am certain that they are both about the same in power.

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 285-350 (68.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 283-335 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In order for us to effectively outpace Roost, we need to be doing about 83% per turn, as Leftovers + Roost subtracts 56.25 from that damage. As such, we basically 3HKO Tomo. However, there are two main differences with SJ and SL.

1. Strong Jaw Moves makes contact, making us hurt by Rocky Helmet.
2. Strong Jaw uses one move to handle both Tomo and Pex, while Skill Link uses two (Spear n Bone Rush)

Skill Link may use two moves, but even still I think it is a better choice than Strong Jaw. This is because on the one hand, it isn’t effected by Rocky Helmet. On the other hand, running other utility on a trapping set with Skill Link means sacrificing either a multi-hit move or a STAB move. That I think adds a layer of balance to our ability; the Stratagem comparison works well here. There also is room for a full-on Skill Link abuse set, meaning we get the diversity in sets that we wanted. All in all, Skill Link FTW
 

Quanyails

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I highly advise that supporters of offensive abilities follow the Ability Leader and posts calcs--not just those showing an advantage they have over targets, but also that they don't make checks and counters shakier.

I am additionally against offensive abilities such as Tough Claws and Skill Link because they do not support or encourage CAP 23's role as a trapper and forego dismantling to brute force. We will succeed with the goal of making CAP 23 a generic good physical attacker that can smash many pivots and walls.
 
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