CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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LucarioOfLegends

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Also in support of Mega Scizor being added as a check. It pretty much walls us to no end with that ungodly physical defense (assuming for a sec that we would be physical), is immune to any Toxic shenanigans that may be attempted, can easily heal off the damage we deal with Roost, resists Dragon STAB and doesn't terribly mind Spirit Shackle, and can easily set up on us with SD+Bullet Punch. He isn't too terribly common though, so we aren't really losing too much for losing to him.

I disagree with nyttyn however about the checks list; I think two mons need to be taken off. Chandelure is currently Unranked under the Viability rankings which speaks for itself on whether it should actually be on this list. Hydreigon I also don't think belongs on the list due to it not being seen at all these days, and you generally have much better options for Dragon types.
 
Small reminder to people iffy about steel types being its counter, it can't trap and beat EVERY bulky thing. Also when coupled with magnezone, all bulky mons that Cap23 should never be able to handle are quickly dispatched by a magnezone.
 
I think that Mega Scizor should be a counter. Like mentioned above, it is a bulky boi and walls us. It doesn't mind being trapped and has U-turn, meaning I don't see a point in having it just be a check.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I don't understand how Malaconda can check CAP23: the First has a low Attack stat and the second can shoot a powerful Outrage
 
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david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Its Dark-typing means it can take a Spirit Shackle and it threatens to KO with Sucker Punch.
Why should I use SS on Malaconda? Also, unless CAP23 will have low defenses, it's very difficult that Malaconda can kill It before that CAP23 will do it
 
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Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

Well I think that Cap23 should take advantage of it's typing and aim to lure in generic physical walls. When choosing what physical walls to aim for I think it'd be best if we aim for generic top tier pokemon which are core essentials in teambuilding (Hazard Setters, Hazard Control etc.). I feel like this would be essential to really see the effects of trapping. The point of trapping is to leave a lasting effect of pressure by removing a pokemon. Pokemon which I think fit that are as follows.

Landorus-Therian
Skarmory
Celesteela
Mega Scizor
Ferrothorn
Tomohawk


This list of pokemon are all naturally attracted to the thought of Dragon/Ghost as they all have good potential of walling it bar coverage. Due to their effectiveness they are also commonly used as Physical Walls leaving more matchups where you can trap these pokemon. These pokemon also have common weaknesses we can abuse (Fire and Ice), this then leaves us with a filled moveset if we are to go 4 attacks, or a coverage move dropped in 3 attacks + whatever other move. Which then leads us to have unpredictability, which we need to trap effectively.

Fairy types should be exempt from being targets of the trapping(Clef, Tapu Fini) as these core essentials should still be able to take on cap 23 to a soft check degree to prevent easy spamming of Outrage. This also gives offensive fairies more incentive to switch-in.

I don't think Tangrowth is a realistic trap target for Cap23. Tangrowth won't be able to damage Cap23 significantly, as HP ice won't do much damage to a pokemon of average bulk and possible Z Moves negate Knock Off. Tangrowth generally can't take on this Cap and therefore won't be switched into this cap. Switching Tangrowth into Cap23 is literally suicide and I feel as if people literally don't understand that trapping moves trap differently to trapping abilities. Another reason why I don't think we should target tangrowth is due to tangrowth commonly being a special pivot. As for the other Regen pokemon, Toxapex, I feel as if we should preserve Toxapex as a Cap23 check to prevent dismantling of stall which can already be achieved using many other pokemon. As well as this targetting Toxapex makes us have to use an obscure coverage move where as the other pokemon i listed earlier have similar weaknesses.


2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.

Cap23 Should be able to actually bring pressure in a game to force opponents to have to go into their pokemon even though they can potentially be hit with coverage. This means Cap23 should be able to force pokemon it naturally beats out even more so than regularly. This is due to Cap23 having the ability to potentially trap a pokemon it beats and then kill them. The pokemon then is dissuaded from staying in.

This may sound confusing or common sense, but what i mean by this is, Pokemon we happen to resist should be beaten when trapped. This then allows us to expand more on the trapping effect and leave us much more fearsome. Ensuring this will also guarantee multiple switchins and opportunities to trap.

Tangrowth
Pyroak
Tapu Bulu
Volkraken
Keldeo
Zapdos
Manectric
Venusaur-Mega
Chansey
Heatran
Charizard-Mega-Y
Volcarona


Speaking on the current trap list, I think it's the wrong way around. I don't know how you all expect this pokemon to be efficient trapper when most of the top common dragon and physical checks are meant to be it's counter. I think the point of trapping with a move is to lure in common resists and then nuke them with a potential s/e coverage move.
 
In response to Drapionswing:

Doesn't CAP23 already have a good matchup against Tangrowth by virtue of having a trap move preventing switch outs?

All CAP23 really needs to target Tangrowth, if it wants, is a trap move and the default move most mons have, Toxic. A weak HP Ice or Knock Off can be shrugged off pretty easily; Substitute, Protect, Rest, Z item, etc....

The same applies to Tomohawk, provided it doesn't run Taunt.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
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In response to Drapionswing:

Doesn't CAP23 already have a good matchup against Tangrowth by virtue of having a trap move preventing switch outs?

All CAP23 really needs to target Tangrowth, if it wants, is a trap move and the default move most mons have, Toxic. A weak HP Ice or Knock Off can be shrugged off pretty easily; Substitute, Protect, Rest, Z item, etc....

The same applies to Tomohawk, provided it doesn't run Taunt.
Hence why Tangrowth is in my Secondary target list. Pokemon we beat by type and should trap. As well as that, that's literally why Tangrowth shouldn't be a primary target... If you know tangrowth literally comes in and gets walled after why would you bring it in on a potential Trap move. That's literally sacking a mon for no reason.
 
Speaking on the current trap list, I think it's the wrong way around. I don't know how you all expect this pokemon to be efficient trapper when most of the top common dragon and physical checks are meant to be it's counter. I think the point of trapping with a move is to lure in common resists and then nuke them with a potential s/e coverage move.
This does seem to be a relevant point: Why will Tomohawk/LandotT/ect be staying in front of TrapCAP long enough to be trapped? If these are supposed to be Pokemon we want to draw in and counter with a trapping set, what kind of Pokemon is this going to threaten with a non-trapping set? And if we don't plan to have a non-trapping set, then what is the plan for making the trapping set work in regards to trapping what it wants to?
 
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nyttyn

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The problem with the "why would you bring X in on Y" argument ignores that competitive pokemon is very much like that one scene in the princess bride.
MAN IN BLACK: All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead.

VIZZINI: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's? [pauses to study the MAN IN BLACK] Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I'm not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
At its heart, competitive pokemon is all about calculated gambling like that. Many turns sure, there's a safe, no-brainer option you can do, but there are many times where you'll make a gamble that you can swap in something cap 23 beats, in the prediction that your opponent will swap out CAP 23 to something else as well that your swap will beat. Or perhaps you've already got Tangrowth in, CAP 23 swaps in on it, and you keep tangrowth in assuming your opponent will swap out CAP 23 assuming that you would not keep tangrowth in. So on and so forth.

That's why the question of "why should we have pokemon whom by all means should switch out when we come in or should never switch in on us on our targets list" is one that is ultimately working off of a flawed assumption. It assumes that you and the opponent will always know what the opponent will do and will make the perfect answer - and that's just not how pokemon works. CAP 23 being able to trap does not make it, ultimately, much different from situations where a wrong guess would leave your pokemon OHKO'd or so crippled that it is no longer of much, if any use in the match - and as such, we should not make our counters list off of the assumption that the opponent will always know what we intend to do and will perfectly react to it - and even if that WAS the case, having CAP 23 beat these pokemon means that we're limiting our opponent's options against it, which ultimately still works in CAP 23's favor.
 

snake

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This is your 24 hour warning. Please post any thoughts on the threatlist before this time tomorrow!

CAP23 should target and dismantle (Pokemon that have a really hard time winning against CAP23 if successfully trapped):
a. Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, Chansey

CAP23 should target and pressure (Pokemon that have methods to escape CAP23 and should not threaten a healthy CAP23 AND offensive Pokemon that CAP23 naturally checks AND bulky Pokemon that CAP23 can trap but not threaten as well):
b. VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Magearna, Rotom-W, Volkraken
c. Excadrill, Volcarona, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Charizard-Mega-Y
d. Calm Mind Naviathan, Clefable

CAP23 should be checked by:
e. Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Bisharp
f. Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Mega Charizard-X, Latios
g. Ghost-types: Revenankh, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
h. Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A, Mamoswine
i. Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Malaconda
j. Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill
Krilowatt
CAP23 itself


CAP23 should be countered by:
k. Skarmory, Celesteela, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor

I'm happy to see this thread shaping up pretty well now! A couple of thoughts though. While Drapionswing brings up a well-thought argument about how we should threaten stuff that our typing naturally loses to, especially through supereffective damage, we come up with a few problems. Think about Syclant. Heatran, for example, is terrified to switch into it if Syclant even though it resists its STAB Ice Beam and U-turn because Syclant has access to the extremely commonly used Earth Power. Let's think about CAP23: if we want to threaten Pokemon Group A solely based off our STAB moves, but then turn around and give CAP23 coverage to actually beat Pokemon Group A, they aren't going to switch in at all. Suddenly, nothing wants to switch into CAP23. What this means is that we have to make CAP23 very underwhelming as a trapper because if it just outright beats everything, there's no point. Our counters actually have a pretty rough time against CAP23 as well. With the exception of the newly added Mega Scizor, if they switch into a trapping move, they're stuck there while one of CAP23's teammates gets a completely free switch-in.

I want to bring attention to Krilowatt and CAP23 itself in the checks list. Krilowatt, quite frankly, is a bad check: even though it has Ice Beam and Volt Switch, because we know nothing about CAP23's stats, Krilowatt could easily not threaten CAP23 at all. In fact, it fits in the VoltTurn pivots section in target and pressure much better than checks. I hope everyone can consider that Krilowatt be removed from the checks list and into the target and pressure section. As for CAP23 itself, if Garchomp mercilessly beats the team you just built, what do you do? Do you a) try to swap around Pokemon to have a better matchup against it or b) add Garchomp because it speed-ties and technically checks? You never (or shouldn't ever) make choice b. Therefore, it makes little sense that CAP23 should actually check CAP23 itself. That said, does that mean CAP23 shouldn't speed tie or outspeed any of the Pokemon on the checks list? No. I'm not confining our speed stat to less than Mega Sableye, which is one of our current checks. However, CAP23 should not have to specifically lose to itself just because it has stabs that are supereffective against each other. If anything, CAP23 itself belongs in target and pressure. I think moving these two from checks to the target and pressure section for the final list tomorrow might be the best course of action. So, I ask you...

Should Krilowatt and CAP23 itself be moved to target and pressure? If not, why should they remain checks?
Are there any other Pokemon on the checks list that need to be moved to target and pressure as well? Or moved to counters? Please elaborate with justification.

DrapionSwing did provide a nice list of Pokemon that CAP23 should target and pressure though, so I've included some of them there like Volcarona, Volkraken, and Tapu Bulu, among others. It's important to focus on these Pokemon as well, as CAP23 has a really great defensive typing, and potentially trapping some of these offensive Pokemon can help bring in a teammate who can counter them. As for VoltTurn pivots, these are pivots who we want to either pressure because we force them to click the pivot move OR because we don't want to explicitly lose to them (at least, not die to them).

Are there any other offensive Pokemon that should be added to target and pressure? Are there any that should be removed? Please provide thoughtful and relevant reasoning.

Finally, I'd like to bring attention to our target and dismantle section and our counters section. This is the absolute last chance we have to discuss these, and these are extremely important lists for our project, so if there are any last doubts or concerns about them, they need to happen now.

Does the target and dismantle section need to experience any additions or removals? If so, please explain why.
Does the counters section need to experience any additions or removals? If so, please explain why.

Again, 24 hour warning takes effect now. Let's finish this stage strong!
 
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reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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I strongly disagree with Mega Scizor being considered a hard counter; it differs immensely from each of the other Steels mentioned in that it is extremely vulnerable to Special or mixed sets, mixed with Hidden Power in particular. It would take only base 85 SpA to 2HKO Mega Scizor with HP Fire, so calling it a counter instead of a hard check basically consigns us to having unusably low SpA, which is very undesirable considering how useful Hidden Power in general is for this concept. The other Steels on the list are acceptable as counters.

I also feel the check list is unreasonably long and generally unrealistic. Would you really consider switching Cyclohm into CAP 23? Unless CAP 23's maximum speed is slower than Cyclohm's minimum speed, I really doubt it, and that is a very improbable scenario. It is similarly hard to imagine Revenankh ever checking CAP 23. Malaconda is only really a check if CAP 23 is exclusively special, and I feel that Mega Sableye in particular will almost certainly not want to risk switching into CAP 23 regardless of what we do with it.
 
While I personally still disagree with the counter list, right now I prefer to focus on some smaller details:

Clefable: How are we supposed to threaten this? To be able to 2HKO it we need an insane amount of power (252+ Atk Life Orb [Dragon/Ghost with 150 base Attack] Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 183-216 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Poison coverage (That would also break through Tapu Fini, one of our main counter) or Steel coverage (whose only use its to hit Clefable, so I doubt it would see much use). Besides having more non-Steel counters could help us to keep CAP23 in check.

Mega-Sableye: I still insist in moving M-Sableye to counters, because it is the only good physically defensive Dark-type in the meta, and there's no reason why we should be able beat it.

Chansey: It should be moved to target and pressure, as its immune to our best trapping move, but we can still easily beat it because we're immune to Seismic Toss, so in the long run, we will simply outstall it as long as we deal a decent amount of damage with our other moves.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I'm against Malaconda, Cyclohm, Revenankh and CAP23 into the check list:
- Malaconda shouldn't kill it unless we want to give it super low defenses
- Unless we want a slow tank, Cyclohm and Revenankh will be too slow for CAP23, so they can't do much
- In the end, CAP23 can't check itself because it can lose the speed tie and die

I strongly disagree with Mega Scizor being considered a hard counter; it differs immensely from each of the other Steels mentioned in that it is extremely vulnerable to Special or mixed sets, mixed with Hidden Power in particular. It would take only base 85 SpA to 2HKO Mega Scizor with HP Fire, so calling it a counter instead of a hard check basically consigns us to having unusably low SpA, which is very undesirable considering how useful Hidden Power in general is for this concept. The other Steels on the list are acceptable as counters.
This works in a similar way even for Ferrothorn
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
I object to the statement that reachzero has brought up against Mega Scizor and his proposal to remove it as a counter. The argument that he presents, that the presense of Mega Scizor limits possible stat bias due to its vunerability to Special and Mixed sets, doesn't necessarily work that well with the current presense of Skarmory on the counters list, who succumbs to similar issues to Scizor. Skarmory in fact has worse special bulk than Mega Scizor does, meaning that it can fall much easier to our Shadow Balls if we do decide to go a Special Route, and I imagine it wouldn't be much different for the Mixed Route either. Scizor actually has some notable benefits, such as being able to U-turn out of CAP23's trapping and a consistent source of decent damage. Skarmory has to hope and pray that it has Brave Bird to deal decent damage, and its pretty much stuck unless it has Whirlwind on its current set. Scizor, in my opinion, should definitely stay.

I agree that Malaconda, Cyclohm, and Revenankh should be off the list though, they just don't have the correct tools these days to actually fight CAP23 these days. They're just too slow. Clefable should at the very least be a check due to its traits that are not in favor of CAP23, but I would not be suprised if we changed it to counter honestly.
 

nyttyn

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if skarmory is on our hard counters list, a special set is already off the table from the word go since it takes a remarkably low amount of special attack to threaten a 2hko with shadow ball and a spooky plate (something like 100ish). and like, hidden power is fucking worthless unless you have good special attack to begin with - 60 BP is so bad it's already a last resort for people who can make any use of it.

real facts for a moment here for HP fire vs scizor:
85 special attack only has a 16% chance to 2hko with a neutral nature + no item and only become guaranteed with stealth rocks up against 248 HP mega scizor (which is most of them)
if you throw in a life orb this becomes 60 spatk. so if you really really REALLY want scizor dead i guess 60 spatk will do the job which is already comically unusable low levels.
with a negative nature you need 69 spatk with a life orb. without one, you need 95 special attack to 2hko post rocks.

you don't even get close to a 2hko for ferrothorn at any point with this or accomplish anything else. none of these values are sufficient to get even a garunteed 2hko on landorus-t with HP ice with rocks up. nothing else on our targets list is remotely bothered by hidden power of any type from such low values without serious investment so the list of relevant numbers ends there.

you arent going to give up a move slot to a single move that can barely 2hko a single counter that can u-turn out unless you're trying to run some ultra cheeky set in a tournament. also hidden power outside of this does not matter at any values that are too low to run a mixed/special set simply because it's that piss weak. while skarmory is on our counters list, mixed and special sets are off the table. ergo, so long as skarmory is a counter, hidden power does not matter. thus, scizor-mega should remain a counter, as hidden power isn't relevant to the concept at all in a world where mixed and special sets are off the table.


i'll agree on revenkah being a sad boy whose shadow sneak doesnt really threaten us at even incredibly sad paper thin defenses levels of bulk so saying he's a check would be wrong but cyclohym's draco meteor is a big threat and will probably brutalize most versions of CAP 23, meaning he's pretty firmly check town (can't really swap in on us safely but we can't swap in on him safely either). if we can survive offensive cyclo's draco meteors something will have gone seriously wrong so it should probably remain as a basic sanity check.
 
I just want to point out that if we want to really explore trapping, having multiple trapping moves as options is a good idea. Having the option of Anchor Shot not only makes us less Fairy bait, but unlike Spirit Shackle, Anchor Shot works on normal types, like Chansey, whom we do want to be able to do something against. The fairies we want to fear most are the ones that don't worry about Steel coverage, like Tapu Fini and, I guess Tapu Koko? It does have access to Volt-Turn, STAB fairy moves and its electric moves are powered up by Electric Terrain, even though we resist them.

if we want to make trapping moves viable, we need to at least discourage Parting Shot, Volt-Turn and Ghost types. That doesn't mean that none of the pokemon that fall under that bracket should counter us. Some should! But we should at least pressure some common examples of those under those bracket to make sure that those archetypes don't automatically ruin our niche.
 

Drapionswing

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I still feel like the threatlist is just not proper for what we need Cap23 to do. We have 7/9 pokemon we just counter, which we should of course trap this goes without saying. nyttyn's post sums up exactly why this will fail for trapping.

Many turns sure, there's a safe, no-brainer option you can do, but there are many times where you'll make a gamble that you can swap in something cap 23 beats, in the prediction that your opponent will swap out CAP 23 to something else as well that your swap will beat. Or perhaps you've already got Tangrowth in, CAP 23 swaps in on it, and you keep tangrowth in assuming your opponent will swap out CAP 23 assuming that you would not keep tangrowth in. So on and so forth.
This means we rely on a missprediction which is even more unlikely to happen in this case, because a missprediction isn't something your pokemon can come back from if it's trapped. What you're saying is we should value misspredictions rather than valuing the more appropriate switchins to this pokemon. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't trap Tangrowth, or other pokemon we wall, however I don't think we should focus on trapping these pokemon, because we already beat them. Half the work is done for us already. Being able to trap generic steels isn't the end of the world, we can still have plenty of counters. This still leaves Clef, Heatran, Tapu Fini, Toxapex for a potential counter list.

I'm not sure if it's a fear of becoming too much like heatran or people just aren't familiar with Gen 7 OU Trap move mechanics. But Heatran is our only good example of trapping and Heatran isn't a Grass-Type trapper or a Steel-Type trapper pokemon it walls very rarely stay in unless it's a sack or a missprediction.

Speaking on Chansey being in the traplist... it makes no sense. First of all this checklist seems to imply we're more than likely going to be physical... and Chansey, which is more commonly used on stall which possess a ton of physical answers to pokemon, shouldn't be expected to switch in or stay in on Cap23. Secondly Chansey instantly implies we need Anchor Shot, however that then leaves us with 1 extra moveslot to hit our other trap targets and then strongly constricts our movepool options. And a small note, since this is implying physical attacker then special pivots are even MORE unlikely to switch into this mon.

Moving onto Checklists:

Revenankh - For revenankh to be on our checklist is forces us to Bellow 65 speed, which takes away from our offensive presence.

Dragonite - I just don't think Dragonite is relevant enough in this metagame to be listed, I find it weird how it's actually listed over Salamence. Which is a better alternative however it still has it's still not relevant enough in this Metagame.
 
Clefable should be in the checks section due to the fact that without giving TrapCAP access to Anchor Shot or a Poison coverage move, Clefable can just beat it down with STAB Fairy attacks. Except if we do go down that route, then we now have something that had coverage on a lot of other fairy types. On a similar note, Magearna is bulky enough to tank our STABs, is capable of dropping a highly dangerous Fluer Cannon on top of TrapCAP, and has a typing that could adversely affect other Pokemon we want to counter TrapCAP. I don't see it being pressured out by this.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I thought that this thread was over

Some calcs and considerations done with a Dragon/Ghost Garchomp as an example:

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 224-266 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

How can CAP23 pressure Clefable if it fails to check it?


56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 422-498 (117.8 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 152-179 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Magearna can't be pressured since it can take a hit and KO back CAP23


0- SpA Life Orb Garchomp Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 172-203 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unless we want a SpA stat lower than 80, Mega Scizor will fail to counter CAP23


252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 308-363 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Unless CAP23 will be slower than 80 Speed, Mamoswine will fail to check CAP23
 

snake

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Sorry for the delay! Thanks for a great thread everyone. Hopefully now, we have a better idea of how CAP23 will fit into the metagame. Remember, this list is a framework, not an absolute list. Future decisions might contradict this list a little bit, but not extensively. Please carefully review our final list!

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
a. Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos
If successfully trapped, these Pokemon will have a difficult time against CAP23, through CAP23's offensive coverage or utility.

CAP23 should target and pressure (Pokemon that have methods to escape CAP23 and should not threaten a healthy CAP23 AND offensive Pokemon that CAP23 naturally checks):
b. VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Volkraken, other VoltTurners whose coverage CAP23 resists
These are VoltTurn pivots we should not lose to. CAP23 has a general type advantage over these, so they should be pressured into switching out, rather than having a free U-turn or Volt Switch.
c. Offensive Pokemon: Excadrill, Volcarona, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Mega Charizard Y, Calm Mind Naviathan, other Pokemon whose coverage CAP23 resists
CAP23 should generally not lose to Pokemon whose moves are resisted: as such, these Pokemon should fear CAP23 to some degree.

CAP23 should be checked by:
d. Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Bisharp
e. Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A
These Pokemon have the coverage, bulk, or power to tackle CAP23.
f. Dragon-types: Zygarde, Mega Charizard X, Latios, Garchomp
g. Ghost-types: Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
These two types have a type advantage over CAP23, but the reverse is also true, so they are checks.
h. Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados
i. Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Clefable
These Pokemon have the bulk, super-effective STAB-boosted coverage, or other qualities to check CAP23.

CAP23 should be countered by:
j. Skarmory, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Tapu Fini
These Pokemon generally have the bulk to take on a Ghost-type STAB, resist or are immune to CAP23's Dragon-type STAB, and generally do not care about CAP23's trapping effect. Tapu Fini in particular blocks CAP23's ability to use Toxic.

I'm really happy with the discussions so far. See you in the Primary Ability thread!
 
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