CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[HeaLnDeaL]

(Note: This post is mostly me talking as a user, not as a Typing Leader. Mostly...)

I just want to chime in an briefly say that I don't buy for a second the argument of "X typing is TOO GOOD! It can't be used since it can't be balanced easily!"

The simple fact is that any and every typing we choose will go through a balancing act. This will not be unique to anything. We're no where near close to deciding stats and movepools or anything. Some typings might need more or less oomph added in future stages than others. That's simply natural.

The concept is our starting point. If a typing has qualities the helps or hurts the concept then those qualities should be discussed.

And let's just be real here for a second. There's no point in trying to hide that the typing I am referring to is Ghost/Dragon since that is the typing that has had the most back and forth debate. It seems that one of the biggest criticisms of Ghost/Dragon is that it's... too offensive? I'm really not sure, since most of the arguments of it being too good are just baffling to me and I haven't seen any imo good reasoning to support this notion. Ghost/Dragon might have great neutral coverage but it's super effective coverage is utterly terrible, only hitting 3 single types SE. The top dogs in the meta are not weak to either Ghost or Dragon. Ghost/Dragon has 5 whopping weaknesses. I don't see how this is a phenomenal typing. I don't understand how people can support Ghost/Ground or Fairy/Ground but say that Ghost/Dragon's coverage makes it OP (spoiler: the other typings just mentioned have better coverage).

Ghost/Dragon seems to have a lot of weaknesses, a lot of resists, and good neutral coverage. I'm not even fully sure what the problem with STAB Spirit Shackle would be since this is far from a super powerful move. That said, even SS isn't guarantee anyway. I've very very much appreciate someone saying why Ghost/Dragon is too OP because everything about it tells me it's a good type that matches the concept on a number of points, and that it has enough flaws and enough strengths to fit our needs. If I'm being frank, I think it's unhealthy to create a bandwagon against this typing by claiming it's OP without ever proving it is. So here's your chance; prove it please.

I do not believe that Ghost is the most offensive tying in the CAP metagame. I believe our usage stats utterly refute this.

Want to know what will switch into a Ghost STAB trapping move? Something bulky, powerful, and with a pivot move. Lots of these mons exist from Landog to Krilowatt to Cyclohm to Colossoil to who knows what else.

The argument, to me, is clearly one about STAB or no STAB, not one about Ghost or no Ghost. Is a STAB trapping move distracting? Is it a compressed move? It is spammable? Do we want spammable? I've heard well respected users argue on both sides of this issue.

 

[nyttyn]

Backing up Heal here, I think you're all seriously over-estimating how powerful Ghost is, especially in conjunction with other typings. See: Revenankh, whom is far from top tier, in spite of having Ghost/Fighting typing, which actively pummels the only types Ghost does less than 1x damage to. It's not a bottom tier typing by any means, but it's nowhere near hellishly hard to balance.

SM CAP is full of bullshit like the tapus, Tomohawk, and mega zard anyway, this isn't DPP where a good typing alone would get you far. You need to be powerful to be used, and a good starting point for that is a good typing.

 

[Reviloja753]

Honestly, Ghost / Dragon isn't the spawn of Satan or anything to me. I would be totally fine about Ghost / Dragon being the type for CAP23. Hell, it's honestly my second favorite out of the typings suggested (my favorite is Ground / Fairy). I also agree that every type is a balancing act. However, people are concerned that Ghost / Dragon with decent stats that support it (which is one of the reasons Revenankh has a somewhat hard time even now being it has bad speed for a setup sweeper) will be too risky for CAP, especially if we give it Spirit Shackle. Whether that's fine or not is up to you, but I'm just clearing that up.

I don't exactly have much to add to what he said, but I also agree with jas on the role of trapping moves for TrapCAP. We should be making the opponent to think hard about switching into bulkier teammates against us and we should pick a typing that should help us towards that goal of sorts.

 

[Panic Station]

The argument, to me, is clearly one about STAB or no STAB, not one about Ghost or no Ghost. Is a STAB trapping move distracting? Is it a compressed move? It is spammable? Do we want spammable? I've heard well respected users argue on both sides of this issue.

I think the CAP needs to consider binding viability alongside Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. STAB on a binding move could encourage its usage when it would otherwise be overlooked in favor of stronger STAB moves.

As for typing suggestions I like, the ones that made me think "man, I wish I thought of that" were Dragon/Steel and Ghost/Ground.

 

[Sereg]

Yeah, I really agree that the idea that a typing can be so good that any Cap we make with it will be too good for the cap metagame seems a bit silly to me. We have OU's banlist, with a bunch of extra powerhouses added in.

This is especially true when it comes to a trapping move specialist, which, as has been repeatedly pointed out, is a very difficult concept to turn into a powerful mon that is both viable and follows its concept.

Also, I think people are forgetting snake-rattler's conclusions from last thread. Your opponent should expect the trap move (because we are going for something defined by its trapping ability), but fear what it will do after the trap and/or the chance that you are using a niche non-trapping set to counter the strategies that typically destroy the trapping sets.

Now, as for STAB, I do not consider STAB necessary but I think it is certainly helpful. And 80 bp move is not exactly terrifying, especially from a type that hits very little for SE damage. As far as I'm concerned, giving the trapping moves compressed roles and making them spammable is a good thing. Because if we don't make the trapping moves as strong as possible, one of two things is going to happen. 1) Users of the mon will realise that they have better options than trapping moves and the concept will fail as the cap becomes better known for non-trapping sets 2) People will decide that the Cap is only good at using weak trap sets and a different mon tat does something completely different would fit better on the team and we end up with a mon that is barely used in the metagame it was designed for.

In order to fulfill the concept, we have to make trapping as appealing as possible to the cap while eliminating as many of the issues trapping has as possible from the Cap making it a powerful trapper. Trapping moves, as demonstrated by their relative absence from the metagame, are difficult to use effectively and even more difficult to specialise in If we end up with a powerful mon that spams, say, Spirit Shackle, we'll have fulfilled the concept and will not end up with something that walks all over the tier unless we really mess up later.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

Dark/Fairy or Ghost/Dragon as it can trap users and possibly hit with a move like Spirit Shackle and then be the trapper in CAP and is typing and trap move might make the foe in a bit of trouble.

 

[Sereg]

Dark/Fairy isn't bad. It doubly resists Dark, which is nice. Offensively, Dark helps patch up Fairy's weaknesses. It also hits Ghosts for SE damage while resisting them, which is really good. I prefer a typing with immunities to its STABs though and with resistance/immunity to Volt-Turn though.

Basically, I want a type that benefits from trapping as opposed to a type that can function fine as a sweeper/wall and a type that can handle the problems with trapping (like Volt-Turn, Ghosts, set-up time and unexpected coverage/trapping the wrong mon) as opposed to one that can only trap in ideal circumstances and is otherwise fodder.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I think the CAP needs to consider binding viability alongside Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. STAB on a binding move could encourage its usage when it would otherwise be overlooked in favor of stronger STAB moves.

I'm not sure why. The base damage on most of the binding moves is so horrendous, that I doubt the jump from dealing 4% of maximum health to the opposing mon to 6% of maximum health is going to justify it.

Dark/Fairy or Ghost/Dragon as it can trap users and possibly hit with a move like Spirit Shackle and then be the trapper in CAP and is typing and trap move might make the foe in a bit of trouble.

Why Dark/Fairy? That seems to hit the sweet spot where both Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot are borderline completely useless as coverage. Dark covers almost everything Ghost does. It has no weaknesses in its offensive coverage for which Steel coverage would be helpful barring very specifically Steel/Fairies, of which only Mag is relevant and Mega-Mawile are relevant. Even then, they both take only neutral hits from it, and 80 BP on a coverage move that's only going to hit with Normal efficiency and invites in all the Fire, Water, and Electric types that plague the tier, many of which already occasionally run Shed Shell against Dugtrio, is a losing proposition.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

Maybe it can work but probably not NumberCruncher. And that's why I also chose the Ghost/Dragons. So far all we know about is that its going to resist switching moves now and might be Ghost/Dragon as its so far the most popular choice.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

The typings mentioned so far that I like the most are Dragon/Fighting and Dragon/Steel, mainly for their potential use of Anchor Shot or Spirit Shackle as potent coverage moves.

However, I would like to throw pure Dragon into the mix. I am surprised this typing has not yet been proposed, but at the same time I am not super surprised since most people seem to be fixated on dual typings for their variety (and because every CAP for the past 9 years has been a dual-type Pokemon). As many have already pointed out, Dragon-types are generally advantageous for their fantastic neutral coverage, great resistances, and high-powered STAB moves (Outrage, Draco Meteor) that provide for very powerful Z-Moves. This typing has a few advantages over its dual-type brethren – it has fewer weaknesses than Dragon/Fighting or Dragon/Ghost, and its lack of secondary STAB frees up moveslots for additional coverage, setup moves, or utility moves that aid our trapping concept such as Knock Off or Taunt. The largest advantage of the pure Dragon typing, however, is its ability to use Anchor Shot as a coverage move that is just right in terms of quality. We should not choose a typing that can utilize Anchor Shot or Spirit Shackle as a phenomenal coverage move for the same reason as not choosing a typing that gains STAB on one of the two moves – it becomes too obvious that CAP 23 is running the trapping move, so it diminishes the surprise factor of trapping.

Now, why would Anchor Shot be just right coverage for a pure Dragon? Obviously, in addition to its trapping capabilities, Anchor Shot can beat Fairy-types that can switch into this Pokemon's Dragon-type STABs, and especially its Z-Moves. But for a pure Dragon type, Anchor Shot isn't such incredible coverage that it would be run 100% of the time. In the case of, say, Dragon/Fighting, the only Pokemon that resist our STABs would be certain Fairy-types, almost all of which are super-effectively hit by Anchor Shot. Due to its phenomenal coverage, there would be no reason not to run Anchor Shot. For a pure Dragon type, though, STAB + Anchor Shot still leaves us unable to break through opposing Steel-types, including Magearna and Mega Mawile. Later, we may decide to give CAP 23 other coverage moves that allow it to take on other fields of opposing threats (mainly Fairy-types and Steel-types), turning it into a Utility Counter of sorts and providing a reason to sometimes omit Anchor Shot from its moveset.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What I notice about these two moves is that although there are notable resistances to these moves, they both can usually be spammed in almost any scenario. Anchor Shot will always land, since there is literally no Pokemon who is immune to it besides from the given Shedinja. As well as being an offensive powerhouse type, only three Pokemon in the entire OU metagame are immune to Spirit Shackle (those being Chansey, Mega Lopunny, and Smeargle), and only one of those Pokemon is actually used consistently in CAP. To top this off, these moves have 100% accuracy which allows them to be used without the fear of missing. All these factors create two incredibly spammable moves that can be fired off in any scenario. However, I will admit that they have low base powers for coverage moves, and could actually be switched out for other coverage.

But that's the point. One of the things brought up at the end of concept assessment is that the opponent should expect the Pokemon to be running a trapping move, but should also fear the possibility of variation in the mons set. Notably, I think that the fear of not actually running a trapping set is an essential part of CAP23. The best thing about Heatran as a trapper is that every set doesn't have to be a trapping set; it can also run a surprise Choice Scarf set. And Magma Storm isn't run on that set just because its the best thing it has. Fire Blast is actually run because it has better power and accuracy. Magma Storm is used on the majority of sets, but the rare Fire Blast can certainly suprise the foe.

STAB Spirit Shackle doesn't allow such freedom. This move is one of if not the best offensive physical Ghost moves in the game. There is no "better" move that we can actually give without delving into legendary/exclusive territory. Pairing that with Ghost's ridiculous neutral coverage pool, there is no reason not to run this move on every set that CAP23 uses. STAB Spirit Shackle completely eradicates the possibility of CAP23 running a non-trapping set, just because of how ludicrously good it is as a move. This can be considered infact hurtful for the concept, as it would mean that it would become a generic, predictable mon that always runs the same thing similar to Cawmodore and pre-update Krilowatt.

STAB Anchor Shot actually isn't nearly as bad. While it certainly has that appealing trapping effect, moves such as Heavy Slam and Gyro Ball can certainly be picked over it due to superior damage if created with those things in mind. Even Meteor Mash can be picked over it due to more power and a fairly good effect. The issue arise when you consider the meanings of STAB Anchor Shot type wise. There really isn't anything notable that STAB Anchor Shot does over its Steely brothers outside of the trapping effect. STAB Anchor Shot can't lure in specific types because the mons you would probably want to trap are resistant to it. Its generally outclasses as a strong STAB move by its brothers. So the problem arises that it isn't really encouraged to use the move because of the actual typing itself, since the other moves could beat it most of the time. The only way to make sure that the move would be used is the eliminate the other options entirely, which would then cause the same problems that Spirit Shackle has.

 

[reachzero]

What does it matter if all the binding moves do is trap? If this CAP ends up being specially based, Infestation isn't substantially worse than, say, Anchor Shot. The point isn't necessary damage, it's the trapping effect. Damage is nice in terms of maximising move slots, but not strictly required for the concept. Fairy is way better on the special side due to Z Fleur Cannon, for instance, so there is no reason why we should be tied to going physical just because Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle are physical. At that point, all the trapping moves are roughly equivalent anyway.

 

[Sereg]

To be honest, I think that the idea of making trapping moves less appealing to take is a mistake. Heatran runs Magma Storm but Magma Storm is a better move than Spirit Shackle or Anchor Shot. Unless we make trapping moves as appealing as possible to be used, they won't be an the concept will fail.

The trapping move being spammable won't stop non-trapping sets from existing. It'll stop non-trapping sets from being the only sets (or at least common enough so that we fail to define the cap as being a trap user that viably uses trap moves in the Cap metagame).

 

[nyttyn]

What does it matter if all the binding moves do is trap? If this CAP ends up being specially based, Infestation isn't substantially worse than, say, Anchor Shot. The point isn't necessary damage, it's the trapping effect. Damage is nice in terms of maximising move slots, but not strictly required for the concept. Fairy is way better on the special side due to Z Fleur Cannon, for instance, so there is no reason why we should be tied to going physical just because Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle are physical. At that point, all the trapping moves are roughly equivalent anyway.

Opportunity cost. If trapping moves aren't sufficiently powerful in their own right, they will not be used. Trapping on a move is, first and foremost, a secondary benefit that you can, sometimes, make use of. Due to the fact they are +0, your opponent can swap out, or stay in, and thus you have no control over what you trap - unlike pokemon whom have trapping as abilities, and thus know they have ways to 100% ensure they will trap the opponent. This makes a huge difference, and if damage did not matter, you'd certainly see mean look and friends see some use.

The fact of the matter is that the trapping effect alone is not good enough to justify a presence on a pokemon's incredibly limited moveslot, and especially not when you have to give up an entire turn to use it, during which you have no control over what your opponent does beyond guesswork.

And yes, Infestation and friends are far, far worse. Assuming for a moment we are a hypothetical bug/steel with equal attacking stats against a neutral target, infestation, one of the very best trapping DoT moves simply because it isn't inaccurate, will do less than half (at the VERY best in most scenarios, something like a third to a fourth) of what Anchor Shot can do. If CAP 23 has bug buzz - it'd run bug buzz instead. If it didn't - CAP 23 simply would not be used. Edit: That's including the 1/8th HP/turn effect.

This is on top of the fact that Infestation is a bug type attack and thus extremely poor offensively. It gets worse for every other trapping move that does damage over time, as they are all 90 to 85% accurate - which makes them extremely less desirable, as not only do they hit like limp farts, they also throw you to the mercy of RNG. On top of limiting your trap to three to four turns, and allowing them to swap out once it's done, which shuts down many potential strats (pre-emtpively, grip claw is not the answer here, as it gives up the item slot which makes doing ANYTHING much, much harder).

Basically, we need to see trapping as a secondary effect that, if we get the right trap, we can abuse to great effect. It is not good enough to be a primary effect, and the fact that virtually nothing (outside of a gimmicky Tapu Fini set that I'm farily certain is a myth) runs Wrap and friends or Infestation and friends is literally all I need to point to. They don't even have bad distribution! If damage didn't matter and trapping was desirable on its own right, Infestation Mew would be a thing for example.


To use a example from card games, namely, MTG and Hearthstone...If a card only heals, or has a weak effect with healing, you don't use it. It's bad. But if a card has a good effect, and healing on top of it, it becomes fantastic and desirable. Trapping in Pokemon is much the same - it's not desirable enough on its own right, but coupled with an already good effect and it becomes good.

 

[S. Court]

I still defend my point we should be sure people has a reason to use the trapping move in first place, so I think having STAB in its trapping move would be the ideal... Or not?

Seeing the nominations, there is another thing I forgot is a plausible alternative: Coverage. If trapping move can help to damage one of its counters, we could incite the player to use this move (as long it's the ONLY way it has to actually do damage to those mons)

STAB trapping move is still the best option imo, but having it as needed coverage is still a choice won't necessarily make the player use this move always, and by extent, it will help to make CAP23 has more than one option to work besides trapping bulky mons.

With that in mind, I want to point the fact binding moves will add unnecessary risk to make this project fails, due to their weak base power and the usually fast paced metagame, so I think we should focus in Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot (Or Thousand Waves if it can be considered an option)

Finally, I still think we should be sure CAP23 can resist hazards, or at least not being totally crippled by it, and being able to take hits from U-turn, Volt Switch, and avoid Pursuit trappping

To conclude: seeing the suggested options, I'd go with Ghost/Dragon, Steel/Dragon and Dragon/Fairy (Anchor Shot can attack fairies) which fulfill most of those standards

If we can considere Thousand Waves, Ground/Fairy and Ground/Steel (which even could have both move: Thousand Waves and Anchor Shot) could be good options as well

Forget the mention of Thousand Waves, I forgot it was banned

 

[nyttyn]

For everyone who doesn't know, Legendary-exclusive moves are banned so assume that we won't have access to either Thousand Waves or Magma Storm.

 

[Birkal]

I don't have a ton of time to post, but I'm definitely on board with the idea of Dragon-based typings due to what has been said before. However, I'm not convinced that the Fairy-types in question being lured in is a large enough list to make it tempting to run a trapping move, especially if it's mediocre. I'd recommend Rock / Dragon to alleviate this, as the secondary Rock-typing brings in threatening Ground-types (Colossoil), Steel-types (Celesteela), and Fighting-types (Tomohawk). It gives us a bit more power to add to stats and movepool later down the road without needing to overbalance. I think this Pokemon should have a good typing, but not a fantastic typing. I'm also a fan of pure Dragon and Fighting / Dragon. Just consider which Pokemon you're luring in with your typing suggestion when you're proposing it: the more threats it can bring in, the more flexible it can be to being geared towards taking out those threats when trapped.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

I'm making this post really quick since I've been busy lately, and maybe I'll explain more later, but right now I'd like to throw down my support to Ghost/Dragon and Fairy/Dragon, although I also think mono-Dragon could work. Dragon typing just seems like a prime candidate here thanks to the useful pivoting resistances and low-resisted attacks making good offensive power. I'd like to point out that Electric/Fighting could make an interesting typing as well. I don't have time to make a formal submission, but it lures in Ground types, resists Stealth Rock, resists Volt Turn, and lures in both Fairy and Psychic types for Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle respectively. Just some thoughts. The weaknesses to Psychic, Fairy, and Ground make it seem fairly manageable while maintaining a fairly good offensive basis on hitting Flying, Water, and Steel super effective (most notably).

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I've been looking through a few of the other posts that had been made since my Ground/Fairy submission (I originally submitted it as Fairy/Ground, but I can get behind Ground/Fairy), and this post by Deck Knight sold me on the potential of Dragons in general for TrapCAP. STAB Outrage works surprisingly well with Anchor Shot in particular to discourage Fairy switch-ins, which is why I'm throwing my support behind Steel/Dragon. I didn't think I'd like the idea of a Steel-typing for this CAP since Magnezone comes in on the vast majority of them, which in turn raises the question of whether Zone's stuck with CAP23 or CAP23's stuck with Zone. But Steel/Dragon isn't actually vulnerable to this scenario at all, as it resists Zone's STABs and only gets neutrally hit by HP Fire... which does piss poor damage as a result. While it doesn't offer the same SE coverage as Ground/Fairy, Steel/Dragon makes up for that by both typings having access to powerful STAB moves such as Iron Tail, Draco Meteor and the aforementioned Outrage to make into Z-nukes, and it has a superior defensive backbone.

Another typing I can get behind is Flying/Ground. This and Ground/Fairy have a lot in common from an offensive standpoint; both combinations hit 8 types for SE damage, and both only have 3 type combinations that completely resist them. (In Flying/Ground's case, this would be Electric/Flying and Rock/Flying over Fire/Flying and Poison/Flying. Celesteela and Skarmory still resist both.) However, while Flying/Ground would fare better against Grass and Steel types, bulky Waters still give it problems, and Ice-type coverage is even more worrisome vs. this typing due to the x4 weakness to it.

...

I have mixed feelings about slapping a Ghost-typing on TrapCAP. On the one hand, Spirit Shackle risks making it very predictable, since there aren't really any better options for a high base power move for a physically attacking Ghost-type to have. Our best option to try and remedy that, off the top of my head, would be to give TrapCAP mixed attacking stats so that a Specs set or something can potentially come out of left field. But on the other hand, a lot of you guys seem to be overestimating the impact that Spirit Shackle will ultimately have, and I'm not convinced that it'll actually be as detrimental in practice as what I'm reading about it thus far. Yes, its neutral coverage is good, but that'd only be a significant problem if TrapCAP winds up with, say... 130+ base attacking stats down the line. And even then, neutral attacks can be sponged much more easily than SE attacks.

That's all I wanna say for now.

 

[Deck Knight]

I would caution against people automatically assuming Super-Effective moves will be sufficient solely based on typing. This is why I referred to "Electivire Syndrome" earlier. I imagine a lot of contributors came after Generation 4, but a basic rundown of Electivire Syndrome is that Electivire has 123 Base Atk, decent speed, and tons and tons and tons of physical coverage moves. The problem is, even when it hits super-effectively it just cannot 2HKO relevant targets. This is with super-effective coverage, meaning attacks primarily like the elemental punches which have 150 BP adjusted for type effectiveness, and sometimes Earthquake which has 200.

Even taking Anchor Shot against Clefable, it is really difficult to take down physically defensive Clefable with Anchor Shot. It still maxes at 160 adjusted Base Power without STAB, and unless you have a very powerful attack stat Clefable will simply heal it off with Softboiled or Moonlight and then fire off a Moonblast. The defensive capability of Pokemon in the SM Metagame is substantially better than in previous metagames, and especially in CAP where Krilowatt, Colossoil, and Cyclohm all provide very bulky examples of pivot Pokemon.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the only way Anchor Shot takes out Clefable without STAB is if you catch Clefable with it on a switch, and have Steelium-Z attached in order to follow up with Corkscrew Crash. This is a perfectly viable strategy and perfectly good use of a Z-Move (watch out for Wish/Protect Clefable though, which can stunt CC), and also happens to be what we have in mind with the concept when we're discussing all these Dragon types.

There have also been people discussing that CAP should have alternative, non-trapping sets. I am not sure how this will be achieved, especially in the context of the current discussion where we are mentioning Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot as effective coverage moves at the very least. If they are effective and set relevant, they will find a home, if not they will be largely discarded because as pointed out, these attacks are not generically good coverage to have.

If the issue is Spammability, Dragon/Steel has similar issues to Ghost/Dragon in that there is pretty much no reason not to run Anchor Shot on every set, even sets that ostensibly aren't supposed to be trappers. The exception being of course a set with a speed boosting move and Iron Head for that sweet, sweet flinch chance, but on such a set Iron Head arguably competes for the slot entirely because 30% flinch is that powerful an effect. I don't think the two moves being somewhat interchangable is helpful for the concept though, as your primary fear in both cases is damage, not whether your switch-in will be trapped.

Ghost also has moves that compete with Spirit Shackle. The best example is Shadow Sneak, which is much weaker but has priority, and hits several fast, relatively frail Pokemon in the metagame like Kitsunoh, Mega Mechicham, Mega Alakazam, and the Latis, as least some of whom I don't think CAP should be trying to outspeed at all. Phantom Force produces a more powerful Z-Move, and since nothing about this concept mandates a physical orientation, some sets would simply prefer Shadow Ball or even Hex, which benefits from trapped Pokemon immensely especially in conjuction with Toxic Spikes being set up or CAP's own status move.

And of course, there is one other issue: Why should Ghost/Dragon CAP use Spirit Shackle if it has a better Dragon STAB to use? Remember, in this hypothetical we're using the trapping effect to secure a hit on a Z-Move or Outrage. If that isn't necessary that turn, CAP will be using Dragon STAB because Dragon moves have much higher base power, are more threatening, and opponents will tend to switch to counterplay against Dragon and not Ghost. Dragon also hits relevant CAP threats like Cyclohm and Colossoil harder, and those are Pokemon CAP generally wants removed from play because it will hate paralysis and fear Pursuit Trapping. If Colossoil is on the opposing team, you aren't Spamming Spirit Shackle, you're spamming your Dragon STAB or using Anchor Shot to either set Soil up for Outrage (barely tanking a Sucker Punch if need be) or cover Fairies in a single move. Basically, Anchor Shot is better moveset compression in uncertain situations than Spirit Shackle is. The STAB on Spirit Shackle would make it better for a Mixed or special-oriented CAP, but Ghost STAB invites Dark-type trappers and CAP has created arguably the best one that will ever exist (two, if you count Malaconda).

Now again I want to stress this is not intended to be a polljump and none of these moves are guaranteed, however this is a real CAP Metagame battle scenario with an achievable moveset in line with some of our discussions, and it's good to play these out because the chief weakness of Ghost/Dragon is that Colossoil (and to a lesser extent Bisharp, Weavile, and Malaconda - Malaconda actually becomes much, much more threatening if we go Special) can give a Ghost/Dragon CAP a very difficult time.

 

[rmch99]

I can't overstate how massively useful I think the Toxic immunity of a Steel type would be. TrapCAP strives to trap bulky pokemon to setup on, or at least remove with a Z Move, and if we can be Toxic'd then we need to trap on the switch and OHKO the next turn to avoid it, which requires insanely good offenses, or just take the Toxic, which will really hurt our pokemon, stopping it from fishing for traps as easily as we want it to by putting it on a timer. If we choose to go the setup route, then when we trap something we end up being Toxiced and much of our setup goes to waste. I reconsidered my previous point, and I don't think STAB Spirit Shackle would be overbearing, but I definitely don't think STAB Anchor Shot would be either, and I think Steel/Dragon is a great defensive typing for our 'mon, though admittedly lacking a bit in offense without coverage/setup.

 

[Sereg]

I do think that Toxic immunity is pretty valuable, I must admit.

I also think that people are overestimating Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot if they think they'll be too good without incentive to run something else.

As for the new, suggested typings

Rock/Dragon Is not bad. It resists Volt-Turn and Dragon s a good defensive and offensive typing. Rock isn't god defensively but dragon helps with that a bit and it's a good offensive typing. However, this is walled by Steels who hit back for SE damage. And neither Anchor Shot nor Spirit Shackle is good overage against them. It also resists one of Tomohawk's and Lando's STABs, though, unfortunately, is doinked by the other in each case.

Electric/Fighting Is also decent for the reasons mentioned. Electric is a good defensive an offensive tying and Fighting is a good offensive typing that provides Stealth Rock resistance and lures in types hit by Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. The typing also resists Volt-Turn. As above, also resists one of Tomohawk's and Lando's STABs, though, unfortunately, is doinked by the other in each case.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I can't overstate how massively useful I think the Toxic immunity of a Steel type would be. TrapCAP strives to trap bulky pokemon to setup on, or at least remove with a Z Move, and if we can be Toxic'd then we need to trap on the switch and OHKO the next turn to avoid it, which requires insanely good offenses, or just take the Toxic, which will really hurt our pokemon, stopping it from fishing for traps as easily as we want it to by putting it on a timer. If we choose to go the setup route, then when we trap something we end up being Toxiced and much of our setup goes to waste. I reconsidered my previous point, and I don't think STAB Spirit Shackle would be overbearing, but I definitely don't think STAB Anchor Shot would be either, and I think Steel/Dragon is a great defensive typing for our 'mon, though admittedly lacking a bit in offense without coverage/setup.

I don't really think that a Toxic immunity is all that helpful.

If we're acting as a trapping pivot, getting Toxic'd is actually beneficial. The Toxic damage never stacks up, and you now can't be burnt or paralyzed, both of which would be terrible for a Mon relying on physical moves to trap.

Presumably if we're setting up on a mon that can't do anything but Toxic us, we have pretty much infinite opportunity to click Rest. Every Pokemon gets Rest, and it removed all our statuses and heals us to full. It can only be stopped by a 2HKO, but if the trapped Mon had a move that could do that, it would have clicked that on the turn you trapped it.

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

I mentioned it before when talking about giving Ghost some extra resilience against Ghost, but Ghost/Normal is honestly my favourite suggestion so far; CAP23 can not only switch freely into its own STABs, but can be used to counter other trapping mons, which are Mega Gengar in Doubles, Dugtrio, Heatran, Tapu Fini, Colossoil (via Pursuit) and Magnezone. Without Ghost, these pokemon have the ability to hold you into battle; which feels like the exact antithesis of the theme. Steel is weak to ground; Heatran's Earth Power and Colossoil/Duggy's Earthquake is going to wreak havoc, unless you give it Flying (or Levitate later); which then feels like we're essentially on the way to making Skarmory with Anchor Shot.

With Ghost/Normal weak to only Dark and Mega Lopunny, it can be pretty resilient. Dark-type weakness can be mitigated by Dark-type usually only being threatening in special occasions; Pursuit weakness can be mitigated by not actually swapping out, or be giving it access to something like Parting Shot or U-Turn and being slower than Colossoil (Parting Shot for Z-Healing, U-Turn for damage vs Dark). Knock Off weakness can be mitigated by Z-Moves or using something like a Terrain Seed/Gem with Unburden and/or Acrobatics. Sucker Punch can be baited out via having the ability to set up. You could also have Justified or Rattled as abilities to make spamming such attacks less attractive. This gives you a possible counter to what might be the typical Colossoil Knock-off set, but then that leaves you open to Sucker Punch (when the trap relies on an attacking move; that may give a low usability to status moves as well) or Pursuit. Schrodingers can be strong, and it adds some prediction games to its use.

Ghost resists Bug, which enhances resilience vs the obvious click of U-Turn, which is much more prevalent in CAP than Volt Switch sets (37 mentions vs 12 in 1760). Ghost with STAB can only really counter Kitsunoh and Revenakh; Rev after a few Bulk Up's is going to be a tough nut to crack, while Kitsunoh should be able to Meteor Mash. It only has 4x SE vs Ghost/Psychic which is Hoopa-B (never seen) and Lunala (banned), while Normal STAB can slap out a STAB Frustration or Facade or even Explosion; and that is offensively gold; in the top 30, you've got Ferrothorn, M-Crucibelle, Kitsunoh, Revenankh, Necturna, Naviathan, Magearna and Celesteela.

Moves like Power Trip, Stone Edge, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Iron Head or Anchor Shot all provide extremely useful offenses which are going to be more situationally useful than clicking Spirit Shackle which also has half PP of Anchor Shot (16 v 32), and doesn't have STAB and SE vs Anchor Shot against Fairy, Rock or Ice Types as a Steel type would.

I also agree that the Toxic Imunity is now less useful, as we don't intend to stay in much longer after netting a kill; and I think that allocating a typing based on immunity to Toxic is a poor argument. You're not going to be staying in on something that's going to stall you out, and Ghost allows you to avoid that.

 

[Yahooboo]

Rock/Dragon Is not bad. It resists Volt-Turn and Dragon s a good defensive and offensive typing.

From what I can tell, Rock doesn't resist bug, as much as I expected it to.