CAP 20 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

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Name: Neutralizer

General Description: A Pokemon that can work as a player's "panic button" when no other possible route seems possible....with a steep price.

Justification: There is a select group of moves known as "self-KO moves," which do exactly as they say. However, they always seem to act as a method to support another Pokemon instead of doing what they initially were designed to do: act as an emergency fail safe with a steep price. Even in Pokemon today, we hear of people referring to Pokemon as "panic buttons," which they only use in case the situation turns sour. What we don't know, however, is what exactly a panic button is, or why the price to so many seem to be rewarding. That is what this project will focus on: figuring out the science behind a fail safe.

Questions:
  • What is a panic button exactly? What makes it a panic button?
  • Why do the price of so many "fail safes" seem to be a benefit to ones team?
  • How exactly can we make a true panic button? Is there more to it than meets the eye?
Explanation:
As far as I know of, we have only two moves that seem to fit in with this project like peanut butter and jelly: Lunar Dance (which, if I remember correctly, is banned from CAP) and Healing Wish. Both of these moves are highly effective a turning a a bad situation and playing it into your hand if played correctly. Also, in this case, only one ability seems to fit nicely: Prankster. I don't think we should just immediately jump at this option, however, as then this thing would basically destroy all forms of offense and stall alike. Only Hyper Offense would remain, and I'm not quite sure if that would count as a "balanced" metagame. Of course, the part about this is that you have to lose something significant to your team; if you simply use this thing to use Healing Wish, then you instantly ruin the whole point of this project. So, I'm thinking of a scenario of where you lose a late game win-condition or you lose a game guaranteed. Catch my drift?
(Also, this is my first time through. I hope I don't screw everything up!)
There's already a popular, excellent OU Healing Wish user in Latias, who is well-suited to the job; it's fast, durable, and it can defog. I can't imagine us coming up with a more effective Healing Wish-er than that. Broadening the concept to include Explosion and Memento (and other self-destruct moves I may be forgetting) might give it more mileage; these are somewhat unexplored (and ineffective, at least on their current users) in OU. It could be fun to reach back to DPP days when Explosion was a big deal.

Also, as I understand it in your explanation, the only thing that distinguishes a 'failsafe' healing wish from a regular support one is the cost involved. Part of what makes Latias a good user is that it can fulfill its defog role early/mid game then self-KO after its usefulness is exhausted. Running Healing Wish on a late-game threat is thoroughly counter-intuitive, as it would rather spend that fourth moveslot on a move that's useful at every stage of the game.

I would reformulate it to focus more on the mechanic of self-destruction itself, the cost/benefit aspects of that, and the questions it raises, but otherwise personally I think you have an interesting concept.

Edit: In response to Dry Paratroopa below, as this isn't worth a post of its own: self-KO =/= discouraging the opponent's KO. There are big differences in the discussions involved. 'Can I afford to sack this' vs. 'can I afford to KO this'. In my opinion, the two concepts are distinct enough.
 
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PS: My Showdown name is SarySann, didnt know if it was needed to say, but i did anyway. Also, just because I'm a beginner, please give me a chance to get a good CAP Idea going. Don't underestimate the power of a beginner. As many people hate beginner's for some reason.

Concept Name: Tanky Pacifist

General Description: A Tanky Pokemon that stays in the back. It is made to take hits and use Moves that rather Stall, Support, or that just plain annoy people, but has VERY limited attacking moves and if so, most of them are special. A good comparison is like a better, slightly more Diverse Wobbefet. This pokemon is meant to be a tank that supports. It uses Pure Defense and can learn a great majority of status attacks.

Justification: I say that there are a ton of tanks, this one is more like a Chansey or Wobbefet. Which it kinda is, but this one will be more unique, as it has a VERY wide Status moveset and could rule a field without even using a damaging move, truly earning the title as Pacifist. Chansey is another big comparison, because it's meant to stall out.... but this pokemon is more of a staller/ set up than just a tanky pokemon, which gives it more purpose. Not many pokemon could do the exact things I described, and even so.... they have many weaknesses..... not just typing weaknesses, I mean ability/attack weaknesses. A huge counter to stallers is Magic Guard/ Magic Bounce/ Unaware. And a main defensive pokemon is usually brought down by status effects. This pokemon will make sure none of that doesnt happen. This may sound op, but there is one way to work around this pokemon if you were to fight it..... use it's own strategy against it, it's that or try and get a pokemon that is meant for sweeping. So to sum up this Justification, not many pokemon can juggle around different roles easily..... this one can with ease.

Questions to be answered:

.
How can a team beat this if they dont have specific pokemon?
. How can this pokemon bare the true name " Pacifist "
. How can you find an easy weakness against this pokemon.
. Is this pokemon too op
. A potential roadblock to this concept is it's power, and the ability Prankster. As Prankster can easily stall out this pokemons Attacks, and it's power may be too great for the metagame.
. How could this pokemon be balanced enough for the metagame.
. How can taunt affect this.

Explanation:
This may seem impossible to beat, but it has MANY possibilities to be used in Meta game, and theres many plans and pokemon out there in the meta game, so it can be countered quite easily as long as you have a thorough plan, so be prepared to go against this if it ever does get accepted. The guidelines said I Could add some suggestions here, so here are some. Having it be a typing that's pretty resistant to a good amount of types may be nice, but it's your decision. This pokemon having a devious stalling ability like " Prankster, Illusion, Magic Bounce, Shadow Tag, Magic Guard, etc. " would be pretty nice too, but like I said.... it's your decision. Also, Taunt may seem very effective on this pokemon..... but like i said, it will still have attacking moves..... just not a lot. Some of them could possibly be very powerful, and if this pokemon gets Magic Bounce.... Taunt has no effect..... or this pokemon could be immune to dark type attacks. Ex: It if gets the ability Justified ( Theres another suggestion. )...... it will raise its attack, although thats very useless as it probably wont be getting many physical attacks, it still gives immunity to dark type attacks. PS: As a recommendation ( It's your decision ) It should have a decent base Sp Atk ( Like 60-90 ), because if something goes wrong with status attacks.... it has back up.

I hope you liked my idea please do not deny this right away..... as I will be taking input from reply's to make this better.

In Response to Alfalfa: Okay, this is different from Wobbufett as it can use Actual physical attacks and will have an immense special move set. And this is different from Chansey due to the fact that this is a physical wall too..... that can do move than just Wish, Siesmic Toss, and be a sitting duck. Also, this isnt exactly an " annoying set ", it's just meant to be a bit of a challenge. Plus it's meant to be beatable. And to clarify how I want it to work out.... I want it to be a CAP Supporter that can mix all of the different forms of tanks and juggle them well, so I want it to work out life a Modified Wobbufett + Chansey, but with a bit more offense..... also, thats just an Example, that wont be exactly how it is. And may you please rate this.... like is it a good pkmn.
 
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Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
Some of my thoughts on other concepts that have come through so far.

Clutch Shooter - This is an interesting idea, but I can't think of a mechanic in Pokemon that lets us actively approach the concept. That is, we can't just slap an ability/move on our Pokemon and say "Hey, we completed the project!", and this is actually a relatively big problem. This makes it hard to complete the goal as is because not everyone can see the same path for the project, and we end up with a Pokemon that looks like it was made from a bucket of Mr. Potato Head parts. If you could add some examples of specifics you could see on this CAP, it would do the concept some favors.


Lower Your Defenses - The largest problem with this concept is the fact that it treats debuff moves like something that isn't a figurative momentum black hole - which they are. Turn-cost wise, they are some of the worst moves out there. Let me give an example. Let's compare a debuff wallbreaker to a standard wallbreaker. Our opponent is a Chansey. Here's how each of our wallbreakers beat the wall. Assume that the two wallbreakers have otherwise equivalent stats.

Debuff Breaker:
Turn 1: Uses Debuff Move, which lowers defenses by 2 stages.
Turn 2: Uses Attacking move, which 1HKOs Chansey.
Standard Breaker:
Turn 1: Uses Attacking Move, deals > 50% of Chansey's health.
Turn 2: Uses Attacking Move, deals remaining damage, which KOs Chansey.

So What's the biggest difference between these two situations? They both kill Chansey, right?
The difference, is what happens if the opponent switches out. When you use a debuff move that lowers the opponent's defenses by 2 stages, it's almost always better to just attack twice. If the opponent switches out, not only is the debuff gone, but you lost the opportunity to chunk the wall. This by itself is the reason you don't see debuff moves consistently.

Moveset Minimizer - While the concept seems like it has numerous choices that can be made during design phases, I'd argue that the way the concept is worded actually decreases both the focus of the project, while the focus on countering "Moves" is too narrow once we choose what we want to counter. Here's an example of what may end up happening within a project with a concept like this.

Here's what you need to do early on in order to effectively approach the concept.
1.) Determine what move we're countering
2.) Decide if there is an effective way to actually counter the move (if there isn't, repeat step one)
3.) Execute effective strategy determined in step one.

Seems straightforward and easily accomplishable, but this may end up being once of the largest drawbacks to the concept insofar. The fact that it focuses on moves makes it extremely easy to preform the third step effectively, and make us lose interest as soon as those goals are met. This concept has the same problems, arguably, that the Knock Off concept did. If you haven't read through that, it's worth a look-see. I suggest to everyone to read through the denied concepts and look at the reasoning behind them in order to avoid pitfalls that can be found in concepts later on. If you can figure out a way to re-hash this concept that makes Moveset Minimizer not hit those same bumps, Great! But otherwise the concept, even if it does get approved, may end up crashing and burning once people start doing simulations and the like.


Pressure Point - Honestly the general description for this project is pretty clumsily worded and easily mis-understood. When I first read through both it and the justification felt like they were talking about exploiting a weakness in a team composition by removing a crucial team member that dealt with something that doesn't have another counter - in essence, another concept that would turn in to perfect mate. However, reading further, the idea of abusing a 'Pressure Point' as a teambuilding concept was lost and was instead shifted it's focus to something equivalent to punching the opponent in the same place over and over again. If you could look it over to help push the concept in one of those two directions, it would help the it out by leaps and bounds.

Poor Synergy - I'd argue that creating a Pokemon that's 'anti-synergy' by nature will never exist. The best example is actually a counter example using the same pokemon you did: Kyurem-B. Cube, at first glance, at least, may seem like an unsynergystic behemoth, but turns out to have completely different drawbacks (like it's movepool which is more a movepuddle) that set it behind. In fact, it tends to be consistently one of the better wallbreakers out there; setting up situations for a sweeper to come in and do it's job. That's still synergy, despite the fact that Kyu is doing the work by itself.
What I'm trying to get at, is that as long as the CAP has counters and counters other pokemon, it will be better with some other pokemon.

So what this leaves us with is two options:
1.) Beats Everything in the OU metagame, so it doesn't need to rely on anything
2.) Loses to everything so that it's equally good with any pokemon.
See why this is a problem?

Neutralizer - We sort of saw this during Tomohawk, but I still enjoy the idea. The only problem I really have with it is that if the concept is a one time thing it makes it much harder to justify a teamslot for CAP without it contributing some other sort of utility to the team. What we may want to talk about instead is making something that is effectively less a panic button and more just a panic door - something that can utterly stop the opponent's momentum multiple times. I feel that may be the only way to carve out a niche for the 'mon.
 
PS: My Showdown name is SarySann, didnt know if it was needed to say, but i did anyway. Also, just because I'm a beginner, please give me a chance to get a good CAP Idea going. Don't underestimate the power of a beginner. As many people hate beginner's for some reason.

Concept Name: Tanky Pacifist

General Description: A Tanky Pokemon that stays in the back. It is made to take hits and use Moves that rather Stall, Support, or that just plain annoy people, but has VERY limited attacking moves and if so, most of them are special. A good comparison is like a better, slightly more Diverse Wobbefet. This pokemon is meant to be a tank that supports. It uses Pure Defense and can learn a great majority of status attacks.

Justification: I say that there are a ton of tanks, this one is more like a Chansey or Wobbefet. Which it kinda is, but this one will be more unique, as it has a VERY wide Status moveset and could rule a field without even using a damaging move, truly earning the title as Pacifist. Chansey is another big comparison, because it's meant to stall out.... but this pokemon is more of a staller/ set up than just a tanky pokemon, which gives it more purpose. Not many pokemon could do the exact things I described, and even so.... they have many weaknesses..... not just typing weaknesses, I mean ability/attack weaknesses. A huge counter to stallers is Magic Guard/ Magic Bounce/ Unaware. And a main defensive pokemon is usually brought down by status effects. This pokemon will make sure none of that doesnt happen. This may sound op, but there is one way to work around this pokemon if you were to fight it..... use it's own strategy against it, it's that or try and get a pokemon that is meant for sweeping. So to sum up this Justification, not many pokemon can juggle around different roles easily..... this one can with ease.

Questions to be answered:

.
How can a team beat this if they dont have specific pokemon?
. How can this pokemon bare the true name " Pacifist "
. How can you find an easy weakness against this pokemon.
. Is this pokemon too op
. A potential roadblock to this concept is it's power, and the ability Prankster. As Prankster can easily stall out this pokemons Attacks, and it's power may be too great for the metagame.
. How could this pokemon be balanced enough for the metagame.
. How can taunt affect this.

Explanation:
This may seem impossible to beat, but it has MANY possibilities to be used in Meta game, and theres many plans and pokemon out there in the meta game, so it can be countered quite easily as long as you have a thorough plan, so be prepared to go against this if it ever does get accepted. The guidelines said I Could add some suggestions here, so here are some. Having it be a typing that's pretty resistant to a good amount of types may be nice, but it's your decision. This pokemon having a devious stalling ability like " Prankster, Illusion, Magic Bounce, Shadow Tag, Magic Guard, etc. " would be pretty nice too, but like I said.... it's your decision. Also, Taunt may seem very effective on this pokemon..... but like i said, it will still have attacking moves..... just not a lot. Some of them could possibly be very powerful, and if this pokemon gets Magic Bounce.... Taunt has no effect..... or this pokemon could be immune to dark type attacks. Ex: It if gets the ability Justified ( Theres another suggestion. )...... it will raise its attack, although thats very useless as it probably wont be getting many physical attacks, it still gives immunity to dark type attacks. PS: As a recommendation ( It's your decision ) It should have a decent base Sp Atk ( Like 60-90 ), because if something goes wrong with status attacks.... it has back up.

I hope you liked my idea please do not deny this right away..... as I will be taking input from reply's to make this better.
Wobbuffet works as a tanky pacifist only because it is specialized towards playing that role; it traps and KOs the opponent by using the opponent's offenses against it rather than attacking itself. Chansey is okay, but it has big problems with being passive that encourages a whole number of Pokemon to set up on it. Wobbuffet has access to Encore, which pressures opponents from setting up on it, and has access to Safeguard and even Destiny Bond for further support. You mention annoyer sets, but these have been proven to be inherently gimmicky, and there are always multiple ways of getting past annoyer sets.

You should really clarify how you want this tanky pacifist to play, because there are numerous tanky pacifists that exist. Chansey, Alomomola, Wobbuffet, Skarmory, Ammoonguss... there are numerous bulky Pokemon that are passive that can be used to a number of success; how is this CAP going to be any different from these Pokemon?
 

Birkal

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As a result of this thread the CAP Workshop is temporarily closed to herald the start of CAP 20. Please check out our Concept Discussion for the final shake-down of which concept will guide us. We'd love to hear your input there! Once we've selected a concept as a community, this thread will re-open for submissions for CAP 21. Thanks for your patience!
 

nyttyn

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As CAP 20 has had its concept selected, the CAP workshop is now re-opened for submissions for CAP 21's concept. Please redirect any and all posts to the new concept submission thread.
 
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