CAP 11 CAP 11 - Concept Assessment 2

[jumpluff]

My opinion:

• It does not matter if the partner is fast or slow. They don't need to match in every aspect, and what really matters here is that the partner can take certain hits. Togekiss is an excellent spreader of paralysis. Perhaps the Pokémon itself could get Thunder Wave, in order to free Togekiss's moveslot? However, that brings me onto my next point.
• We should be wary of creating something that is so good as a supporter that people will be more inclined to use it independently of Togekiss.
• The Pokémon should be neutral or resistant to Rock. I agree with those who are saying Stealth Rock could defeat the entire purpose of this duo. If we want them to succeed then they should not require too much outside support. This also helps Togekiss. Alternatively, the partner could carry Rapid Spin, but I think creating another good Rapid Spinner will make it more of a standalone-used Pokémon. It also doesn't help as much vs Tyranitar.
• The Pokémon should be resistant or immune to Electric, or otherwise be able to solidly beat the OU Electrics. Jolteon, Zapdos, and Rotom-A are the main threats to Togekiss. While Ice-type attacks generally don't threaten Togekiss since it has Roost and the only threatening STAB Ice-type attack in OU comes from Abomasnow, the STAB Electrics in OU are far more problematic and also resist Togekiss's mainly used STAB. I'm sure we can all agree Electric-type attacks are one of the main problems for Togekiss.
• The Pokémon should have a weakness to something that Togekiss can cover. This provides some mutual synergy and encourages people to use the two together.
• The OP asks 'How far should we go when with synergy? Will too much focus make our Pokemon too reliant on Togekiss's presence? Will too less not even affect her effectiveness?' The idea here is to make a 'perfect mate'. In my opinion, this means we should err on the side of too close synergy. At the very least, it will be a boost to Togekiss. However, we should obviously try to strike a happy medium. I think when we've reached a point where 'Togekiss and this Pokémon function best alongside each other but do not need to be alongside each other to work in OU' (as obvious as it sounds), we've succeeded. I think we need to ensure, in this point anyway, that our CAP is okay on its own. There's nothing we can do to Togekiss itself within the realms of this CAP. If we want it to work best in tandem with Togekiss rather than other Flying-types, perhaps we should 'capitalise' upon Togekiss's Normal typing by giving it problems with Gengar? (Note: LO Focus Blast 2HKOs Togekiss with Stealth Rock) However, this would also give it Rotom problems. Perhaps it should have its own anti-Ghost attack and fall in between them in speed tiers. That's just my thought, anyway.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Many things suggested so far are pretty generic "support a Flying-type" concerns. These are all well and good, and are things that will inevitably have to happen due to Togekiss's bulky offensive, yet supportive, nature. However, we need to be careful when specifically addressing these issues that they don't support other Flying-types like Zapdos and Gyarados better than Togekiss.

We also need to remember that we've already made a CAP that supports Togekiss immensely well. Colossoil resists and is immune to Rock- and Electric-type attacks, respectively. Furthermore, Colossoil can even punch through both Blissey and Rotom-A with relative ease, so it's a big-time combo with Togekiss, despite sharing an Ice-type weakness.

It's important that CAP11 be attuned specifically for what makes Togekiss different from Gyarados or Zapdos or Salamence. This is important to consider in typing, ability, stats, and in style. Short of poll-jumping, suffice to know that what makes Togekiss different is as follows:

• Togekiss is slow and has no way to boost its Speed.
• Togekiss has an immense supporting presence in Encore, Roost, and other things.
• Togekiss has a brilliant offensive special movepool and has Nasty Plot to boost her sweeping capacity.
• Togekiss is a great special tank.
• Togekiss is pretty slow and appreciates paralysis support more than any other Flying-type in OU.
• Togekiss always uses its Flying-type STAB.

We need to focus on these points when developing CAP11, or we're going to end up supporting Gyarados with a Motor Drive Pokemon or Zapdos with whatever the heck it wants. These points are going to be the basis for all of my submissions to the different stages of this CAP, and I encourage others to consider them seriously when they submit as well.

There's not much else I feel comfortable discussing here, as it either focuses too heavily on typing, ability, or whatever. If we consider the above-listed points and manage to succeed at addressing each of them with our CAP, though, then we will have succeeded in creating a good Togekiss mate.

I also greatly agree with this sentiment:

'Togekiss and this Pokémon function best alongside each other but do not need to be alongside each other to work in OU'

 

[Raj]

I'd like to bring it up, for the people who are currently active on this project, yet don't even battle at CaP, that our metagame is pretty different than how it exists at SU server. While CaP follows everything from SU with our addition of the CaPs here, and the OU list from SU is carried over to the CaP server, usage wise, many OU Mons from SU are rarely, if ever used at CaP. I'm bringing this up because Gengar and Rotom-A, among a few others (lolZapdosatCaPlol) keep getting brought up, yet they don't exist in CaP play because of CaPs like Colossoil and Stratagem.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Vleeter, for the last time, the CAP metagame does not matter when creating a Pokemon. It is an afterthought, and we do not create CAPs for it, nor do we even consider other CAPs in the CAP development process. We make CAPs for the playtest metagame.

 

[bubbly]

Vleeter, Rising Dusk got it right. Although most of the time the CAP's play as part of the CAP metagame, they are only designed on the current OU metagame.

 

[CobraJSF]

When I was looking through Togekiss' analysis, I read something about how it hates Toxic/Thunder Wave, because that stops its sweep really easily. So I was thinking, what if we made a status absorber? Something that could come in on Bliss/Rotom/Special Wall and just basically stop it. I agree with the ideas that it must be resistant to at least one off Togekiss' weaknesses, and that it should be weak to something Togekiss can cover.

I think that in order for this pokemon to take advantage of Togekiss' movepool, it should not have very many support options. Maybe something to slow opposing pokemon down, or something to trap electrics...

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

[jumpluff]

Togekiss already has and makes great use of Heal Bell (especially against stall), but it really suffers from four moveslot syndrome. If we made it a, say, Ground-type, that would help with Thunder Wave, as well as Tyranitar.

Vleeter -- What Dusk said. I thought until recently we designed them with the CAP metagame in mind, but CAP is an OU research project and I was informed by #cap people that we design it with OU as our model metagame. :)

ETA:

It's important that CAP11 be attuned specifically for what makes Togekiss different from Gyarados or Zapdos or Salamence. This is important to consider in typing, ability, stats, and in style. Short of poll-jumping, suffice to know that what makes Togekiss different is as follows:

• Togekiss is slow and has no way to boost its Speed.
• Togekiss has an immense supporting presence in Encore, Roost, and other things.
• Togekiss has a brilliant offensive special movepool and has Nasty Plot to boost her sweeping capacity.
• Togekiss is a great special tank.
• Togekiss is pretty slow and appreciates paralysis support more than any other Flying-type in OU.
• Togekiss always uses its Flying-type STAB.

We need to focus on these points when developing CAP11, or we're going to end up supporting Gyarados with a Motor Drive Pokemon or Zapdos with whatever the heck it wants. These points are going to be the basis for all of my submissions to the different stages of this CAP, and I encourage others to consider them seriously when they submit as well.

Great point. I guess what I was trying to get at in my post is that we need to consider Togekiss's uniqueness or we'll end up with a Pokémon that works better with other Pokémon. :) Thanks for outlining those.

smallvizier:

- Why do pokemon like Electivire and Umbreon fit well with Togekiss? Is there anything we can learn here?

Electivire complements Togekiss with Motor Drive and physical moves. Umbreon is a good Baton Passer, as is Togekiss, so I'm going to suggest the two are being used in conjunction as part of a Baton Pass chain. (Togekiss does also have Air Slash for Fighting-types that bother Umbreon, although it doesn't resist Fighting-type moves.) Also, both are around Togekiss in 'low end of the OU usage statistics'. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it is that straightforward.

I don't think we need to worry too much about other Pokémon except in how they work with Togekiss. As I've stated, we don't want to create a partner for something else; we want a Togekiss partner. But if we worry about other Pokémon then we'll end up making something more metagame-oriented.

 

[kd24]

key points

1.) new pokemon must be able to absorb paralysis / be able to heal paralysis, as it usually is kisses biggest weakness, as you will rely on that speed to flinch a lot

2.) new pokemon should have the offensive presence of a togekiss (ie - very powerful but plenty of viable ways to be stopped), not salamence - otherwise there is no need for a partner.

3.) counters/checks should never overlap between this pokemon and togekiss, they should be perpendicular so that the other can sweep / be a threat.

4.) there needs to be viable methods to stop both pokemon, but not in that it will be an immediate constant threat - encourage the viability of using set up pokemon to stop the combination.

5.) use the bulk in a postitive way but don't fall back on it and typing to succeed - if its not offensively minded, it will be inevitable that one will be better than the other thanks to their typing, while the other lures in attacks /spread status (think celetran).

 

[Fuhret]

Just my opinions (be easy on me, I'm new to CAP):

Speed: I think that the mate should be slow,it synergises with paralysis and also allows for distribution to other stats to make it excel.

Special/Physical Inclination: I think that CAP 11 should be physically defensive, and specially offensive. Togekiss is already specially defensive and can take special hits, but is weak defensively. CAP 11 should be able to support her defensively when she draws out strong physical attackers. Being specially offensive means that they can benefit from Togekiss' Nasty Plot Baton Pass, as well as lure out Blissey (Side note: Be a Taunt-er to take out Blissey or to stop Pokemon from using T-Wave?)

Resistances/Weaknesses: Togekiss' can easily be felled by Ice, Rock, and Electric attacks, so a Perfect Mate shold be able to switch into these attacks. In turn, Togekiss can easily switch into Ground, Ghost, and Grass attacks. Possibly a Steel typing to resist Rock/Ice (Stealth Rock and Ice for the amount of Pokemon that carry attacks to deal with omnipresent Dragon-types), and steel is also weak to Ground so Togekiss is immune and has the ability to switch in. Togekiss also has STAB against Fighting types, Grass and Bug, so CAP 11 should be able to draw out those types.
Rapid Spin/Entry Hazards: Personally, I think that Rapid Spin is too generic. Lots of Pokemon can benefit from Rapid Spin, not just Togekiss. Rapid Spin would help Togekiss, but also too many other Pokemon. However, CAP 11 shouldn't be weak to Stealth Rock.

Status: CAP 11 should have some way to absorb Status, whether it be Safeguard or the ability to come in one Toxic/most importantly T-Wave. It should be able to spread paralysis back to aid Togekiss, and avoid things like Toxic Spikes or Burn that would stop Togekiss from spreading paralysis herself.

 

[Class]

Though typing has been mentioned several times in this thread, I'm surprised Ground typing hasn't been seriously considered.

Ground hits Rock, Steel, and Electric super-effectively, the 3 types that Flying is resisted by. A strong ground type can get rid of several mons that check Togekiss by resisting its STAB.

Ground resists Stealth Rock.

Ground is immune to Electric and T-Wave and resists Rock, making Ice Togekiss's only weakness that isn't covered. There is no type that covers all 3 weakness by itself. Steel also resists 2, but is not nearly as effective offensively.

Now, as a perfect mate, we also want the Pokemon to be able to support Togekiss by luring attacks or spreading status or something. Fire, Steel, and Electric lure Ground attacks for Togekiss to come in on, but Fire gets rid of the Rock/SR resist. Electric can help spread paralysis for Togekiss. Steel can do the same, possibly, and also gives the Pokemon a neutrality to Ice.

A small support movepool, not one filled with entry hazards and things of that nature, like Fidgit, but one with moves like Encore and T-Wave help Togekiss set-up and sweep. Baton Pass and Agility have been mentioned and are possible.

 

[Not Scicky]

I think in terms of a pokemon that could partner very well with Togekiss, we should be looking at Camerupt. Decent physical attack means it can break down Togekiss' counters that are bulkier on the special side than physical, and extremely powerful fire type attacks keep steel types at bay, not only that but Camerupt is immune to T-Wave and could receive nasty plots fairly well if it wasn't for his absolutely godawful 4x weakness to water and FOURTY BASE SPEED. Indeed, if Camerupt himself were actually good (god bless him), he'd be a fantastic partner for Togekiss. But as a pokemon that's primary method of getting things done is stalling things to death with flinchhax, we also need to address problems like Toxic and... well now that I think about it, I can't see a better parter for Togekiss than Fidgit... immunity to Toxic and Thunderwave, ability to spin out rocks, faster than most things that would typically avoid getting haxed to death by Togekiss, and could easily receive baton passed nasty plots to go off of it's decent Special Attack and pretty great speed... only problem is it's mediocre attack :/

(I know we're not looking for things that already exist, but I feel it's good to have a more concrete idea of what we're looking for)

 

[Quilph]

I really like the direction this is headed. Finding out ways to support Togekiss instead of Weavile could bear some real fruit. Consider me fully on board.

The observation I'd like to make is that much of the discussion has pointed to something that covers Togekiss's weaknesses, can absorb toxic and thunder wave, be slow, and have real bulk. The Pokemon that kept jumping to my mind is Steelix. I say this not because I think he's a better partner and usurps our CAP (as he doesn't), but because as a conceptual framework Steelix looks like a solid blueprint. In the basic sense of the word, he represents much of what we want to accomplish to help Togekiss. Certainly we will want to retool the stat spread of Steelix, as an example, to be inclined towards greater attack and special attack,. In fact I think it may be best if this partner be a mixed attacker who can handle both defensive and specially defensive Pokemon.

I don't think it's necessary for our CAP to be a spinner, since as others have noted Togekiss has roost to slough off stealth rock damage. However, to work as a solid team, Togekiss and CAP11 will likely be switching back and forth a great deal, like Skarmbliss does. To have both be weak to stealth rock would greatly compromise their lifespan, so creating something with typing to handle entry hazards and resist them seems essential. Conceptually, Steelix and his ground/steel typing appears a tempting prospect at the moment, since toxic spikes are ignored and stealth rock is double resisted, but I will want to know what others think.

 

[Spenstar]

Good typing that does not share weaknesses with Togekiss and covers most of them: Steel/Ground. It covers Electric and Rock attacks (4x SR resistance) while being neutral to ice attacks, considered to be the least threatening of the three. It is weak to ground and fighting attacks, both of which are dealt with by Togekiss.

Slow and Physically inclined have bee brought up a lot, as well. It's a good idea when combined with this typing because not only do you benefit from paralysis, but you also get a powerful STAB gyro ball. When combining the physical nature with the Steel/Ground typing, you get Steelix. So what we're making in that case would be largely based off of Steelix.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Quilph

 

[Not Scicky]

Fighting isn't REALLY countered by Togekiss, unboosted SD (with LO) Lucario does 69.3% - 81.8% with Close Combat on the switch, almost guaranteeing an OHKO after rocks (and hey even if you don't die, 70% isn't nice) and Breloom's focus punch does 74.9% - 88.2%.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Resistances/Weaknesses: Togekiss' can easily be felled by Ice, Rock, and Electric attacks, so a Perfect Mate shold be able to switch into these attacks. In turn, Togekiss can easily switch into Ground, Ghost, and Grass attacks. Possibly a Steel typing to resist Rock/Ice (Stealth Rock and Ice for the amount of Pokemon that carry attacks to deal with omnipresent Dragon-types), and steel is also weak to Ground so Togekiss is immune and has the ability to switch in. Togekiss also has STAB against Fighting types, Grass and Bug, so CAP 11 should be able to draw out those types.

I think Togekiss is one of those pokemon whose actual weaknesses don't match those of its typing. On paper, Togekiss is weak to Ice, but in this metagame, it can easily shrug off most ice moves. The strongest it might have to face are CBSwine Ice Shard and Specs Starmie Ice Beam (neither of them being common), and they both fail to OHKO, even with SR damage, while Togekiss can shut them down with Aura Sphere and T-Wave respectively.
It can stand to unboosted Tbolts just as well, but is defenseless against electric-typed pokemons. The most common ghost being Rotom-A, one of Togekiss' main counters, the perfect mate shouldn't be weak to Ghost, as it would not be compensated by Togekiss' immunity.
Similarly, while Togekiss does get SE STAB against Fighting, it just can't switch into powerful STAB physical moves so we should do as if Togekiss was weak to fighting.

Togekiss already has and makes great use of Heal Bell (especially against stall), but it really suffers from four moveslot syndrome. If we made it a, say, Ground-type, that would help with Thunder Wave, as well as Tyranitar.

I think this is one of the key to make a successful partner : Togekiss has a great, diverse but somewhat specific movepool with everything it needs, but you can't fit everything in a single set. Togekiss has great potential, with every option needed to overcome most of its difficulties, but it can't use them all. Therefore, i think we should not only care about typing but also movepool and role synergy. A great partner could be a pokemon who can serve as an expansion of Togekiss' movepool, allowing each member of the duo to specialize and work together. With one of them taking care of status and speed (via Safegard or Heal Bell, via TWave or Agility Passing) and general Wish/Encore supporting, the other one could focus on sweeping, switching back to its partner if a counter show up.

• The NP set's main problem is that it can't boost its speed. A Togekiss-like could spread paralysis or Baton Pass Speed boosts, to be completed by a Nasty Plot on the switch.
• The support sets would really help a slow and bulky set-up sweeper... like Togekiss.
• The Baton Pass set needs a good receiver such as a bulky sweeper who can't boost its special attack, but maybe its speed. If it has great synergy with Togekiss as well as decent bulk, CAP11 shouldn't have any trouble pulling off an Agility/T-Wave/Substitute on the switch to complete the SpA boost.

By creating a partner with roles close to what Togekiss can already do, we could greatly help Togekiss while making sure that it won't partner too well with any other Pokemon. We are doing this CAP because Togekiss doesn't have a particularly great partner, and what pokemon could a Togekiss-like supporter help, that Togekiss can't ? What could support a Togekiss-like sweeper without being able to support Togekiss ?

Aside from a Supporter + Sweeper pair, an offensive CAP11 set could also be used alongside NP Togekiss to form an offensive core (similar to Hyper Offense strategies), with the rest of the team spreading status to ensure that the opposing team can't counter both of them.

PS : To clarify, I am only talking about niches and am not suggesting a Togekiss clone but a pokemon fulfilling the same roles, differently. For example, paraflinching is how Togekiss abuse paralysis, but a slow pokemon with great coverage works just as well (Electivire was mentionned). We should also be careful not to create another niche which could benefit to other pokemon. A perfect status absorber immune to electric would certainly help Togekiss, but even more Gyarados ! Giving it Heal Bell (that Togekiss already have) would be a more reasonable option, as there are already many clerics.

 

[smallvizier]

To a couple of those above: there will be threads on typing later. Some of us have thought about it quite a bit already - it's hardly polite to steal their thunder by talking about it too early.

Do not outright suggest that CAP 11 should have a A and B typing, along with base X HP and base Y Speed.

Instead of talking about types, the point of this thread was to think about

What routes can we take when customizing a Pokemon that has excellent offensive synergy, but also has acceptable defensive/supportive synergy, for Togekiss?

I like the idea of a special attacking poke which can boost his SpA through Togekiss' Nasty Plot, and his Speed (effectively) through Togekiss' paralysis.

How far should we go with synergy when customizing this Pokemon? Will too much focus make our Pokemon too reliant on Togekiss's presence? Will too less not even affect her effectiveness?

I think this latter one was nailed by jumpluff: we want our pokemon to function well apart, but better together. Rising Dusk has expressed concern that much discussion (especially that about types) would apply to any flying pokemon. I suspect that in the end, this won't be too much of a problem: there's already been good discussion about the use of paralysis and the fact that with Roost, we don't need Rapid Spin, for example. These are points that apply more to Togekiss than other flyers.

I have one other concern: whatever pokemon we create, ideally it shouldn't itself be too effective against Togekiss. Why not? Because otherwise, in playtesting, Togekiss will get killed by CaP11 every match! That would just get a little bit weird...

 

[Plus]

What routes can we take when customizing a Pokemon that has excellent offensive synergy, but also has acceptable defensive/supportive synergy, for Togekiss?

How far should we go with synergy when customizing this Pokemon? Will too much focus make our Pokemon too reliant on Togekiss's presence? Will too less not even affect her effectiveness?

In terms of offensive synergy, I think resists play more of a key role than anything in terms of typing. If anything, I would want this CAP to be resisting the majority of Tyranitar and Rotom-a's moves with ease. Deck's suggestion of Psychic / Electric sounds interesting, however I am not sure how important a Shadow Ball lure is, when Togekiss can't do much to Rotom-a or Gengar in the first place. Furthermore, you don't necessarily need to be weak to Shadow Ball in order to lure it -- say if you had a Ground typing or something that at least resists electric while staying neutral to ghost, you would be able to lure a shadow ball from both pokemon. A gliscor lures shadow ball from Gengar, for example. As a general note while still trying to keep in the no polljumping wagon, I think ground is going to be a pretty solid option for this CAP.

As to how CAP 11 is actually played, we could attempt to make it a decent baton pass recipient to Togekiss. We could also fiddle around with the concept of Paraflinching, perhaps making this pokemon based on thunder wave + air slash togekiss. We could make this CAP a flinching machine without the paralysis or any speed, depending on Togekiss to lay down the paralysis for it in order to work. Just some ideas off the top of my head =|

I've talked to some people on #cap about this, concerning Colossoil being a perfect mate to Togekiss. I don't believe I saw any increase in Togekliss while Colossoil was around, perhaps it is because Colossoil is very good paired with other pokemon as well, making Togekiss a lesser option. I think a very important aspect of being a perfect mate is that both pokemon stay in the same general ballpark in terms of usage. You have pokemon in UU that pair well synergy-wise with pokemon in OU, but the pokemon in UU are UU because they fail to pull their own weight despite having the qualities of a perfect partner. Togekiss is a decent choice, but I don't believe CAP 11 should be really as good as Colossoil alone, rather it should be something that is designed specifically for Togekiss.

Accordingly, I don't find too much synergy a really bad thing. I don't think there is one perfect partner to anything in pokemon, though some things do come close. It would be cool to actually try and make one. Without concentrating on the synergy of Togekiss and CAP 11, you are really losing any general direction you have with this concept, rather you are focusing on how to make a good pokemon in OU. And we all know how to do that.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Small Post.

What routes can we take when customizing a Pokemon that has excellent offensive synergy, but also has acceptable defensive/supportive synergy, for Togekiss?

Flying isn’t exactly a remarkable offensive STAB and Togekiss isn’t that remarkable an attacker, rather like Celebi in the CeleTran combination. The fact that it can run an offensive set, however, is a big help when talking about a partner. A counter to CAP11 could be beaten by Togekiss simply by being worn down through repeated pressure, which could be classified either as offensive or defensive help. Thus, we can ascertain that when talking about Togekiss, both are sides of the same coin – one cannot exist without the other. So, it is imperative that both offensive and defensive synergy exists, with benefits from Togekiss’s great support movepool being, well, great.

How far should we go with synergy when customizing this Pokemon? Will too much focus make our Pokemon too reliant on Togekiss's presence? Will too less not even affect her effectiveness?

I do not think there is any such thing as “too reliant”, so long as the partnership works consistently. If it fails to work consistently, the concept has failed, no matter how well the two work apart from each other. The focus should be absolutely on Togekiss and what distinguishes it from similar Pokemon such as Zapdos – otherwise we may well just make another generic supporter.

Now for my individual thoughts…

It is deeply, DEEPLY important that the relationship between Togekiss and CAP11 is a symbiotic one. This means that there is a benefit for both Pokemon to the partnership – Togekiss should not simply be helping CAP11 sweep for no return for itself, and vice-versa. The support factor should be two-way – Togekiss helps CAP11 sweep, CAP11 helps Togekiss sweep, and this occurs at the same time (not literally, of course, but you should be able to decide in-game who is doing the sweeping and who the supporting). Furthermore, I do not believe that it can work whatsoever if we try to bend the concept solely around one idea, such as pivoting for the opposing Pokemon. This is not only too predictable but Togekiss is not exactly the best Pokemon for the job either.

The fact is that Togekiss’s biggest strength lies in its immense versatility, not in sweeping or walling or whatever. It really can do anything a partner desires – it can be an offensive or defensive complement, and can support a sweep. To my mind, the very, very best course of action would be to

Some ways for CAP11 to benefit from Togekiss:

• Good defensive stats but no reliable recovery. This makes Togekiss’s Wish much more useful. If CAP11 is frail then Wish will not matter very much. A similar philosophy can be applied with regards to Heal Bell, but then two Pokemon weak to status is a bad idea.
• Weaknesses to any of Bug, Grass, Ground, Ghost. This gives Togekiss the opportunity to switch in, although there is an element of doubt here. We do not want CAP11 to be weak to Scizor or there will be hell to pay, although Togekiss’s resistance to U-turn is an advantage. Heracross weak is also a big no-no. Breloom and Roserade have status to abuse, and Togekiss isn’t beating Gengar or Rotom-A anyway. Ground-type moves are frequently paired with Rock or Ice… the list goes on. However, there should be NO shared weaknesses, and the typing should allow Togekiss to come in on CAP11’s counters (more underneath)
• Togekiss can deal with CAP11’s counters. So, if we look at Pokemon that Togekiss can deal with, we are mostly limited to defensive Ground-types such as Swampert, Hippowdon, and Gliscor, as well as Grass-types such as Celebi and Roserade, and possibly less offensive Steel-types such as Forretress and Skarmory. If you will excuse my poll speculation for a moment, I would envisage a CAP that made those Pokemon popular – rather like Tyranitar in the beginning of DP, pushing up Swampert and Hippowdon. So, if CAP11 is to push them up, and fulfil the concept as an offensive pair, it should be a potent offensive threat that can bulldoze OU, but is walled cold by those defensive Ground-types. So, what do we have? Rock/Electric seems obvious but such a combination would make it despondently weak to Earthquake – the most popular move in the game. Oh, and Starmie destroys you. Still, Heatran manages all right, but I would hesitate to go so far. Defensive synergy must be covered as well.

 

[Bughouse]

While I understand that typing is not the concern of this thread, I do think it is important that the Perfect Mate help cover Togekiss' weakness(es). As Yoki pointed out, BoltBeam is not actually Togekiss' enemy because of Togekiss' high special defense (unless these attacks are boosted of course). Therefore the only real weakness of Togekiss is Rock-type moves, namely Stone Edge.

Stone Edge, unfortunately, is a very common move in OU, used frequently by pokemon that also outspeed Togekiss such as: Flygon, Gyarados, Heracross, Infernape, and Lucario.

The Perfect Mate must be able to take Stone Edges from these pokemon. Preferably, it could also threaten to OHKO at least 3 of these. Gyarados is naturally very difficult to OHKO physically, but the other four are frail. Also, Gyarados is already crippled by Togekiss' ability to paralyze it. Infernape and Lucario should be OHKOed by an Earthquake from CAP 11, provided it has access to it and reasonable attack. Flygon can be threatened by Ice Fang/Punch. Heracross can already be countered very well by Gliscor, Rotom-H, and Gengar.

Essentially, I would base the Perfect Mate for Togekiss off of Hippowdon (a Physical Wall that can use Earthquake and Ice Fang). However, CAP 11 should have the ability to act as a cleric with Heal Bell in exchange for some advantage Hippowdon currently has, such as Stealth Rock or Roar.

 

[jumpluff]

I think Togekiss is one of those pokemon whose actual weaknesses don't match those of its typing. On paper, Togekiss is weak to Ice, but in this metagame, it can easily shrug off most ice moves. The strongest it might have to face are CBSwine Ice Shard and Specs Starmie Ice Beam (neither of them being common), and they both fail to OHKO, even with SR damage, while Togekiss can shut them down with Aura Sphere and T-Wave respectively.
It can stand to unboosted Tbolts just as well, but is defenseless against electric-typed pokemons. The most common ghost being Rotom-A, one of Togekiss' main counters, the perfect mate shouldn't be weak to Ghost, as it would not be compensated by Togekiss' immunity.
Similarly, while Togekiss does get SE STAB against Fighting, it just can't switch into powerful STAB physical moves so we should do as if Togekiss was weak to fighting.

Yeah, it's a little early for typing (I just threw in Ground as an example, and we need not to remake Colossoil, which is a concern brought up by many CAPpers), but when keeping Togekiss in mind, it's more important to look at the attacks it can take rather than what it's weak to. Togekiss's typing dosen't necessitate a partner with perfectly synergistic typing. It just needs resistances to the STABs and/or coverage moves of the Pokémon that most plague it.

It's definitely interesting to consider duplicating some roles of Togekiss. I think we're in agreement, that, like you said, Togekiss has what it needs but can't fit them all. We could try to be a little more focused than simply 'offensive synergy'. I'm a bit iffy on some particular options since they benefit everything, but there'll be time to discuss those in the move polls. If Togekiss and CAP11 can function similarly in some key regards that help each other, then you can use them interchangeably. In this way, the partnership extends beyond 'a few Togekiss sets work well with CAP11' and become more of a true perfect partnership with many options.

Now, please note that I am not suggesting they have these moves, I'm just using them as an example. e.g. Togekiss runs a Nasty Plot set, CAP11 runs Thunder Wave, or vice versa. This is a not often touched upon aspect of synergy that could indeed be beneficial here, and I'd like it if others considered it.

In short, I agree with you, and wanted to highlight it.

Something Plus mentioned on IRC earlier is that an approach that (I personally believe) is necessary is something many may be naturally averse to -- deliberately handicapping the CAP so that Togekiss brings something to the table in regards to counters and checks. Like I said, we want both to be able o function independently, but work best in tandem. ;)

 

[voltblizzard]

How CAP 11 would benefit from Togekiss:
No instant recovery bar rest so wish would help it.
CAP 11s counters would be able to be whittled down with flinch.
A rather poor Special Defense so Togekiss could switch into Special attacks.
Togekiss could be switched into when threatened by an Earthquake or Shadow Ball.

How Togekiss would benefit from CAP 11:
CAP 11 could have high defense and the typing to switch into Stone Edge.
The ability to pass defensive boosts to make Togekiss more bulky.
Togekiss could be healed with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell/Healing Wish.
Maybe even able to confuse so Togekiss could Parafusion + flinch.
Able to 1 or 2HKO Togekiss's common counters.

I don't think its possible to be TOO reliant on one Pokemon. I think that as long as CAP 11 takes advantage of all of Togekiss's best moves, it can still rely on Togekiss. To be able to be useful to Togekiss, all CAP 11 needs is to get rid of all of Togekiss's counters. Typing doesn't really matter yet, but ground would work well.

 

[Bughouse]

As was pointed out earlier, Togekiss can switch into a Shadow Ball from a Gengar, Rotom form, or Jolteon. However, Togekiss can't touch a Ghost, and if Jolteon is Life Orbed or a sub-passer, Togekiss can do nothing either.

Despite this trouble with actually dealing with the pokemon after you've switched out of CAP 11 into Togekiss, this switch could still act as a defensive pivot. You could then switch from Togekiss into a Ground-type for Jolteon or a Pursuit user for one of the Ghosts.

Earthquake users may still trouble for Togekiss, as many pack Stone Edge too.

 

[HouseFantastic]

What routes can we take when customizing a Pokemon that has excellent offensive synergy, but also has acceptable defensive/supportive synergy, for Togekiss?

Let's not forget that a well-placed ability can also cover a type weakness of Togekiss, like Motor Drive, Volt Absorb, Levitate, etc. If Togekiss can lure in an electric attack, then there might not even need to be the passage of the proverbial baton. Also, consider an ability that pairs well with either Serene Grace or, somehow, even Hustle. There are a whole field of togekiss-specific supporting options available in the ability that is chosen or made.

How far should we go with synergy when customizing this Pokemon? Will too much focus make our Pokemon too reliant on Togekiss's presence? Will too less not even affect her effectiveness?

It would also not be impossible for CAP11 to not be good if the ability didn't work outside of togekiss, for whatever reason, for there are pokemon in OU whose ability is irrelevant, like Forretress, who even finds its way into the Ubers tier. That is where typing and stat build would come in primarily if we took the ability route; determining the survivability of CAP11 itself. When the both of them can survive independently, the methods for synergy should start becoming more apparent.

 

[Fuzznip]

Disclaimer: Being generous, I know about 1% of what you guys do about competitive pokemon. I'm approaching this purely from a design perspective, independent of anything to do with pokemon.

'Togekiss and this Pokémon function best alongside each other but do not need to be alongside each other to work in OU'

This is a really important design decision. I disagree with this statement.

During the design process, we should be erring heavily on the side of making CAP11 extremely reliant on togekiss. There are some good design reasons for this.

First of all, this pokemon is designed to explore synergy. I suspect that during the other CAP design processes, nobody suggested to go easy on how fully it fulfilled the design concept. Sticking strictly to the concept sets more distinct parameters for design.

How far can a pokemon stray from synergy before it's useful on its own? That is a really difficult question! Maybe CAP11 falls into the 'too autonomous' side during design by accident. Conversely, you can't accidentally make it so synergistic that it fails to be a good partner for togekiss.

Never underestimate players. As a rule, all competitive games go beyond what developers ever expect. While we play arm-chair pokemon designers, we should respect the ingenuity of players to find esoteric uses for any pokemon, move or synergy. I suspect that it'd take a lot of effort to make CAP11 something no one ever uses outside its prescribed role as togekiss-partner.

Finally I'd like to talk about revisions. While it's best not to assume failure from the outset, please consider the following: A pokemon that is somehow too useless without togekiss, while not a disaster, can be gently pushed towards some autonomy. Meanwhile, if CAP11 has both excellent togekiss synergy and high autonomy, revisions could be a nightmare. Anyone can tell you if a pokemon is too useless on its own. Unfortunately, we don't have a measure of how autonomous a pokemon is, and so dialling between different levels of autonomy would actually be pretty difficult! I don't envy the designers that have to argue how much of a subjective quantity cap 11 should have, and what nerfs will fix it.

All of this goes for any pokemon selected as a partner.

I locked this as the above user was typing his post, so I added it into mine for others to see.
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Okay, I think we've hit the point where everybody is restating things people have already said, so I'm going to close this now.

Personally, I think we have a good idea of how we are approaching this concept. When creating this Pokemon, we realized that we need to avoid making this Pokemon helpful to other Flying-types like Gyarados and Zapdos, and so we need to uniquely synergize Togekiss and CAP 11. Also, I agree that CAP 11 needs to be relatively effective as a standalone Pokemon, but is a lot better when used in conjunction with Togekiss. The direction we should be taking is offensive-minded, but with few key defensive and supportive synergies.

There was a lot of excellent discussion in this thread, so I recommend it to be read sometime again throughout the make of this CAP so we do not lose focus on our goal. Typing discussion coming up soon.