Battle Tree Discussion and Records

I hate you, I wanted to try ReptoAbysmal idea with Koko+M-sceptile, only to realize Sceptile only gets dragon pulse as gen 6 tutor, and I don't have sceptile in gen 6.

Where is Smuckem where you need him? >:(
I do a great deal of breeding myself. For that matter, ol' Smucks has been the recipient of many of my eggs, as far as this little community is concerned.

I don't do much of any tree battling lately, but I still do tons of breeding and giveaways, both for desireable pokes and rare shitmons with HA + 4 egg moves. Most inside rare balls if possible. Anyway, I'm never opposed to doing people favors if they ask (last gen I also frequently PP Uped peoples' own mons. I could technically do that this gen, but I haven't touched my own pokes yet and am waiting to see what USUM brings about before doing so... tutors and whatnot.)

I know TR isn't all that common in this thread, but I guess one of my specialties is 0IV pokes for most go-to mons.
 
I can guarantee you that I try to come up with another TR setup every other day, and Smuckem has created unnamed atrocities for me to play with :D
 
Walp, hatched a shiny HP Ice Numel (31/1/31/23/31/0), so after bottle capping I guess I'll be having a tilt at Oranguru Trick Room for doubles. Have a shiny Araquanid, Gigalith and Vikavolt, so competition for the second TR sweeper will be tough.
 
TIL that Sheer Force negates Red Card.

At battle 61, I ended up against a lead Mega Camerupt with Protect. Since it Protected turn 1 (I swear the AI should marry that move...) I had to switch to Mimikyu next turn. But when it Mega Evolved I was shocked that it didn't switch out. I was taken aback. "Was the game bugged?" Fortunately I did my best to keep composure and taunted it so that I wouldn't protect before Durant got the Entertainment off. I then hit up Bulbapedia later and found out that apparently since the force out happens AFTER the move, Sheer blocks.

You know for a game widely marketed to kids, Pokemon sure has a butt load of obscure and complex mechanics. I swear I learn something every day...
 
You know for a game widely marketed to kids, Pokemon sure has a butt load of obscure and complex mechanics. I swear I learn something every day...
You have to consider that the only part that is "marketed to kids" of Pokemon games is the storyline, which is knowingly very easy and the player is handheld for the entire game.

Everything else is mostly aimed to actual nerds and people who put effort and math behind it.
 
You have to consider that the only part that is "marketed to kids" of Pokemon games is the storyline, which is knowingly very easy and the player is handheld for the entire game.

Everything else is mostly aimed to actual nerds and people who put effort and math behind it.
The older I get the more surprised I am to find increasingly high numbers of people who aren't outwardly nerdy yet still enjoy Pokemon. I don't include the Go shovelware shit, but the main series on carts. They just don't play it out in the open (unlike me.) Most recently a new friend who's both a cop and a meathead mentioned buying a 3DS just to play the VC ports, and after seeing some Moon he wants that too.
Walp, hatched a shiny HP Ice Numel (31/1/31/23/31/0), so after bottle capping I guess I'll be having a tilt at Oranguru Trick Room for doubles. Have a shiny Araquanid, Gigalith and Vikavolt, so competition for the second TR sweeper will be tough.
Speaking of HP, I'm amused by both the value people put in that move as well as the extent they'll go to get it. Unless the user has Technician, the damage calcs just do not appease me, and lack of coverage doesn't create incentive. Though I cared in gen IV when the power creep was drastically farther back and it was 70 BP.
 
I don't think HP is a important move overally for B-tree shenenigans. HP is generally used in competitive Pokemon to surprise hit a poke that should be walling you (like HP fire/ground on magnezone to hit opposer Magnezones, or HP fire on Tapu Lele to not be walled by steel types), specific cases (like HP fire on Venusaur for a Clorophil team), but competitive is a completely different beast.

In btree, I havent really found any moment in which a 60 BP non-stab move was worth having.
 
Yeah any difference between doing 51-99% (or a little more than 51 for Sitrus/leftovers holders) is largely irrelevant in the postgame facilities as you still have to take a hit in response. Even in Doubles you can't always rely on being able to double up on the target HP is there for in the first place.
 
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Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Walp, hatched a shiny HP Ice Numel (31/1/31/23/31/0), so after bottle capping I guess I'll be having a tilt at Oranguru Trick Room for doubles. Have a shiny Araquanid, Gigalith and Vikavolt, so competition for the second TR sweeper will be tough.
Gigalith please. No other reason than it's the slowest of the three options and it's the only non-Alolamon in the group.

Then again, Vikavolt has been a godsend for the TR users on here, and counters the Water- & (to an extent) Ground-types that threaten MegaRupt. If you're sane, you should probably go that route.

But Gigalith.
 
Gigalith please. No other reason than it's the slowest of the three options and it's the only non-Alolamon in the group.

Then again, Vikavolt has been a godsend for the TR users on here, and counters the Water- & (to an extent) Ground-types that threaten MegaRupt. If you're sane, you should probably go that route.

But Gigalith.
Gigalith really doesn't fit on a doubles goodstuffs team though, at least nowhere near to the extent its capable of. It should have a teammate that cranks its bulk way up so it can hold an assault vest but still unload high damage (Sand Force) or have Gravity so it can at least OHKO things with +2 Stone Edge. It doesn't have much in the way of Instructworthy moves. Phenomenal bastard in triples with good deliberate synergy though.

(psst go the boring conformist route and use Vikavolt, especially if you're packing Camerupt)
 
Regards HP - agree its generally not that important. A lot of the time you'll do at least the same damage with a higher base power STAB move. It's main utility is covering 4x weak mons and moreso in competitive play. That said, if I'm breeding these days, especially for shinies, I tend to want to do it right first time and so if a HP might be needed then I'll try for it. Especially after that time I bred a second shiny Drifblim because I hadn't bred the right egg moves on it the first time around... With egg rejection in Sun/Moon you at least have a good shot at getting the shiny you want more consistently.
 
Here is the work-in-progress sceptile team I finished, apparently some people are interested in using this lead set up so making it available now seems like a win-win. Just keep in mind I have not had time to make it past 50 wins yet. This can be added to the list of rental team if so desired. The team is

https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/BT-C97E-4BD2

Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Ability: overgrow
EVs: 4HP/4Def/252SpA/4SpDef/244Spd
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Dragon Pulse
- Nature Power
- Detect

Tapu Koko @ Zap Plate
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4HP/252SpA/252Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Discharge
- U-Turn

I have chosen to use Zap plate instead of life orb since Sceptile can destroy most dragons with +1 Dragon pulse, and I didn't want to reduce Koko's bulk as the leads are already quite frail.

Celesteela @ Sitrus Berry
Nature: Modest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 220HP/252SpA/36Spe
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Hidden power Ice
- Protect

Not sure what Steel type to use, so I just went with this one as it was sitting in a box mostly untrained. 36 speed to outspeed the rotom forms. I could not decide on an item so I just went with Sitrus as I wanted a bulky steel type to switch in on crobat and poison moves in general. it helps that it only shares a fire weakness with the Sceptile-koko combination as well.

Garchomp @ groundium Z
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252 Spe
- Earthquake {Tectonic Rage}
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Protect

Just a glue and general goodstuffs mon. Mega or scarf Manectric I think is the scariest mon on paper for this team, so chomp helps with that. I also wanted a fire resist so here it is. There are a lot of other pokemon that could potentially replace Chomp and/or Celesteela. Gyarados, excadrill, and Heatran seem like good choices. With USUM also right around the corner, I don't think perfectly optimizing this is worth the time.


Vikavolt is really good for trick room. Although I never used it with Mega Camerupt. I guess you could try trick room sand with mega steelix? This would get screwed over by a lot of stuff I think, and the shinies are more appealing.
 
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Considering how bulky celesteela is, generally it's fine to run Leftovers on her.

Seeing you are running a LOT of spread move weakness (in fact two 4xblizzard/2xdazzling gleam weaknesses) on top of koko weak to earthquake, I'd run Wide Guard on celesteela.
HP ice is overally redundant and doesnt add much coverage as far as tree goes. Might replace that with WG.
 
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Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Here is the work-in-progress sceptile team I finished, apparently some people are interested in using this lead set up so making it available now seems like a win-win. Just keep in mind I have not had time to make it past 50 wins yet. This can be added to the list of rental team if so desired.

https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/BT-C97E-4BD2
On it, unless you have a better name for it, the team will be tentatively named 'HP Ice Celesteela' (the idea kinda blows my mind). To everyone else: the S.R.C. has been updated. CHECK IT~!
 
Cool. I will absolutely be updating the team at some point, especially after what has been pointed out. As for names, I will have to think of something. Really though, chomp was just added so I could start playing with the team, but its still a pretty bad mistake. I will need to totally replace Chomp anyway I think.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
chip and dale git gud: the story of a mans who became sentient

so i was playing battle tree with my cool cryogonal team and as luck would have it i faced bellhop chip. he was using the following team:

mamoswine3 (lax incense, hail/eq/fissure/avalanche, hp/atk)
golisopod2 (sitrus berry, sd/razor shell/leech life/sucker punch, hp/atk)
dragonite3 (cb, outrage/eq/stone edge/giga impact, atk/spdef)

battle video: KRWW-WWWW-WWW9-35SP

i recommend seeing the battle for yourself but if you can't then i got you covered

mamoswine3 lead is something i should normally do well against in terms of team matchup, but i play too recklessly with my gyarados and it dies to eq thanks to a lax incense/possible snow cloak miss. cryogonal brings the mamoswine down to a sliver of health while maintaining its own by using recover.

i go for hp ground to finish the mamoswine off, but the guy switches into golisopod. not knowing what set he is (or having access to the set database because i'm at school), i switch to aegislash fearing the first impression.

HE DOUBLES TO DRAGONITE AS I SWITCH

luckily i'm able to manage the dragonite somewhat thanks to king's shield in tandem with cryogonal's levitate ability. not being able to touch cryogonal, it's forced out

the guy goes to golisopod on the ice beam, but this time he stays in and clicks sd as i go to aegi. after some fooling around with substitute i outspeed and shadow ball him, forcing him out because of emergency exit. he goes to mamoswine, and i switch to cryogonal on the eq

he then switches out...to his dragonite as i click freeze dry. dragonite takes the hit (multiscale probably, maybe because of that spdef investment) but dies to ice beam next turn unfortunately.

this man gets swept by cryogonal at this point but he's not going down without a fight. he sends out mamoswine, only to immediately switch to golisopod. unfortunately for him i clicked freeze dry. my beloved snowflake finishes off mamoswine and i collect 4 bp


ok i'm not trying to prove that the ai is cheating or anything but i have absolutely no idea how it made those plays. why would it switch to golisopod vs an ice type, then immediately switch out to a dragonite? why did it switch to dragonite, instead of a ~45% golisopod, on freeze dry?

man idk how common that kind of ai is but all i know is that i don't want to see it again. with better sets, there's no telling what it could do. thanks
 
Assuming your "obvious reason" is Lightningrod eating both Volt Switch and Thunderbolt, and I'm not overlooking something else, eh, it's not *that* cut-and-dry.

I've actually dicked around with M-Sceptile and Koko, and Discharge in Electric Terrain does lack a bit of oomph, but it's still particularly strong and it gives Sceptile constant boosts as long as you keep it up. Sceptile has much better attacking moves and hits incredibly hard with its own Thunderbolts. I wasn't having a rough time killing the numerous ground types or walls that obstruct Koko, due to grass/dragon STAB on top of the boosts every turn.

There were a lot of fun things to try as backup, particularly Sheer Force Thunderpunch Conkeldurr.
I had been trying this too about a month ago - it is an incredibly fast way to reach around 50 wins but I was never able to come up with a solid backline due to the plethora of weaknesses :(
 
chip and dale git gud: the story of a mans who became sentient

so i was playing battle tree with my cool cryogonal team and as luck would have it i faced bellhop chip. he was using the following team:

mamoswine3 (lax incense, hail/eq/fissure/avalanche, hp/atk)
golisopod2 (sitrus berry, sd/razor shell/leech life/sucker punch, hp/atk)
dragonite3 (cb, outrage/eq/stone edge/giga impact, atk/spdef)

battle video: KRWW-WWWW-WWW9-35SP

i recommend seeing the battle for yourself but if you can't then i got you covered

mamoswine3 lead is something i should normally do well against in terms of team matchup, but i play too recklessly with my gyarados and it dies to eq thanks to a lax incense/possible snow cloak miss. cryogonal brings the mamoswine down to a sliver of health while maintaining its own by using recover.

i go for hp ground to finish the mamoswine off, but the guy switches into golisopod. not knowing what set he is (or having access to the set database because i'm at school), i switch to aegislash fearing the first impression.

HE DOUBLES TO DRAGONITE AS I SWITCH

luckily i'm able to manage the dragonite somewhat thanks to king's shield in tandem with cryogonal's levitate ability. not being able to touch cryogonal, it's forced out

the guy goes to golisopod on the ice beam, but this time he stays in and clicks sd as i go to aegi. after some fooling around with substitute i outspeed and shadow ball him, forcing him out because of emergency exit. he goes to mamoswine, and i switch to cryogonal on the eq

he then switches out...to his dragonite as i click freeze dry. dragonite takes the hit (multiscale probably, maybe because of that spdef investment) but dies to ice beam next turn unfortunately.

this man gets swept by cryogonal at this point but he's not going down without a fight. he sends out mamoswine, only to immediately switch to golisopod. unfortunately for him i clicked freeze dry. my beloved snowflake finishes off mamoswine and i collect 4 bp


ok i'm not trying to prove that the ai is cheating or anything but i have absolutely no idea how it made those plays. why would it switch to golisopod vs an ice type, then immediately switch out to a dragonite? why did it switch to dragonite, instead of a ~45% golisopod, on freeze dry?

man idk how common that kind of ai is but all i know is that i don't want to see it again. with better sets, there's no telling what it could do. thanks
Mamoswine switched out because it couldn't hit Cryogonal. Dragonite switched in because it was immune to the Ground move used last. The only one really out of the ordinary is putting in Mamoswine then switching immediately to Golisopod, but the AI has a preference to send the lead Pokemon back in if it gets switched out through unconventional means (such as PP stalling, Baton Pass, or Red Card).
 
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My previous team didn't work, and I will start a new team. Which pkmn are better to start a new set up in doubles? I would like to use Dhelmise, Mudsdale, Toxapex, Lycanroc or Incineroar, but maybe they are useless. Thanks for any help!
 
My previous team didn't work, and I will start a new team. Which pkmn are better to start a new set up in doubles? I would like to use Dhelmise, Mudsdale, Toxapex, Lycanroc or Incineroar, but maybe they are useless. Thanks for any help!
Mudsdale can be decent in Trick Room, Incineroar and Dhelmise might be usable in Trick Room also but I wouldn't use any except Mudsdale from those myself.
 
My previous team didn't work, and I will start a new team. Which pkmn are better to start a new set up in doubles? I would like to use Dhelmise, Mudsdale, Toxapex, Lycanroc or Incineroar, but maybe they are useless. Thanks for any help!
Dhelmise and Mudsdale are both excellent but require Trick Room to flourish. Incineroar will be a much better doubles pokemon with Intimidate to supplement its Fake Out (it can also function under TR.)

Dhelmise has overall higher base power for its moves and better offense, but Muddy is bulky as fuck with an ability that only improves it, and has a straightforward moveset that works well with the Assault Vest for more bulk. It's very tried and true. Dhelmise will be more reliable come USM when inevitable tutors replace its less reliable moves, but has no problems landing OHKOs the way it is now and makes good use of the Life Orb.

Mudsdale can be decent in Trick Room, Incineroar and Dhelmise might be usable in Trick Room also but I wouldn't use any except Mudsdale from those myself.
Dhelmise has way more issues overall but I hesitate to sell it short. Steelworker Anchor Shots are really spammy for a 120BP move with shitloads of PP and no drawback. With a Life Orb and Instruct, it was chewing through so many lead pairs that lacked sufficient bulk.

Power Whip is not a reliable move, but when I'm trying things I never sweat that aspect, and LO Whips are obscene when they connect. Earthquake and Phantom Force had situational but nonetheless good use (the latter especially when TR would wear itself out that turn, as the AI does not play around it well.)

I consider it something of a cannon that'll only get better come turored moves and maybe the onset of triples, which is where I love abusing Gravity whenever possible.
 
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Don't get me wrong, I like Dhelmise, it was one of the first shinies I bred, but it's clearly outclassed by so many other Trick Room mons that I wouldn't use it for a serious team (definitely would use it for a run just to try it out for fun). Like a number of mons I'm really looking forward to seeing what move tutor moves it gains (c'mon, Icy Wind Fini, please?).

I'm really looking forward to Intimidate Incineroar, I think the addition of that ability will significantly lift Incineroar. Intimidate and Fake Out support looks like a fantastic lead for Trick Room.
 
I've been adamantly saying every so often that when Incineroar gets its HA released, he'd probaby compete with Hariyama as best Fake Out support for TR, due to unique typing, intimidate and significantly stronger move pool (including U-Turn) even with the lower overall power.

It will definitely be my go-to one, that's sure.
 
Don't get me wrong, I like Dhelmise, it was one of the first shinies I bred, but it's clearly outclassed by so many other Trick Room mons that I wouldn't use it for a serious team (definitely would use it for a run just to try it out for fun).
Far too narrow thinking. What exactly are you using as criteria? It is much too unique to be compared directly to most staples and on the other hand, it has better speed and/or offense than many of those same staples. As far as grass and ghost types go, its stats and movepool have clear advantages, particularly being the strongest and the slowest (amongst the physically offensive ones. Admittedly its direct comparisons are few.) Having given so many things their time in the spotlight I have a hard time seeing it as flatly "outclassed" and I have an even harder time writing it off when I haven't been given the chance to use it in all mediums.

Lastly, enemy setter murdering is one of the defining traits of any valuable TR abuser, and not many pokes can claim to have extremely one-sided matchups against both the Slowthings and Aromatisse, as well as the ghosts. While I'm at it, Dhelmise is immune to Spore and easily OHKOs Shiinotic, my bane. Glaceon too, my other bane.

Don't think I'm jumping down your throat, I just get fired up when defending my shitmons ;)
I've been adamantly saying every so often that when Incineroar gets its HA released, he'd probaby compete with Hariyama as best Fake Out support for TR, due to unique typing, intimidate and significantly stronger move pool (including U-Turn) even with the lower overall power.

It will definitely be my go-to one, that's sure.
Support, oh yeah. No question. Offensively, not a lot can just match Guts CC and Knock Off. That said, I agree its movepool is better for a number of reasons.

They don't mirror each other outside of Fake Out, and kill things painlessly that the other can't, so I'll probably hold them in similarly high regard.
 

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