BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
i would like to discuss stakeout next, gonna share my thoughts next post. what do you guys think about it?
Stakeout?

I don't see a problem from this ability. The doubled damage might sound too overpowering, but it is not like Water Bubble which does double damage unconditionally. It requires a foe to switch out, meaning the raw power will be significantly hindered otherwise. I remember you saying "Stakeout is broken" when you experienced my MMY with Stakeout and Earth Plate. While I do agree the power is ridiculous to attacks when Stakeout has been applied, you later managed to avoid it by making right plays and playing around it using Imposter.

If one decides to run Stakeout, that means one also has to prepare a 'mon to imposterproof which will also take double damage on switching out. I believe this fact is what keeps abilities like Tinted Lens on check. In my case, in the game against you, I used this MMY:


Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Earth Plate
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Judgment
- Moongeist Beam​

And I couldn't Imposterproof this MMY without using Registeel which takes a lot of risk:

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 159-188 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This means, if Registeel takes Moongeist Beam for whatever the reason, it has to stay in to recover while I lost momentum and even let Magnet Pull user switch in. Audino in my same team could switch into Moongeist Beam, but if it takes other move, it will lose more than half HP, which will also force me to stay in, recover, and lose momentum.

No, I am not saying Imposter is a cure for every unhealthy component for metagame. I am not saying Stakeout is powerless. But I haven't seen it being too efficient in the current metagame; because a lot of wallbreakers carry coverages aimed at Steel-types (such as every Diancie carrying V-Create, some Pdon carrying Ice Hammer or Stakeout Fleur Cannon / Draco Meteor, some MMY running V-create Contrary to lure in Solgaleo and stuff), people send in Imposter to scout movesets, and during this process, they can see if the 'mon has Stakeout or not, either by sensing it or taking 30- seconds to use an online calculator.

"With that logic, Water Bubble was not banworthy because Imposter could switch in and force it out."

Water Bubble was not managable because it could get past whatever the defensive 'mons will switch in. The switch-in was severely limited to Water-resistant AV Regen which had a lot more difficulty than Steel-types dealing with the rest of the meta (most prominently -ate users), or stuff like Water Absorb and Desolate Land which aren't best ability for defensively oriented walls.

Stakeout is different. Yes, it is not completely wrong to say "A Tinted Lens that works on non-resist", but it is easy to find out in the meta where Imposters usually switch in to take a hit and scout the moveset and also ends up finding out the damage comes from either Tinted Lens or Stakeout. Imposterproofing Stakeout will force a player to use a 'mon with unique typing, (such as Fur Coat Tapu Fini and Arceus which are used to wall Stakeout Primal Groudon) most of which are either suboptimal or not viable ways to deal with the rest of the metagame.
Shortly, using Stakeout also costs the user to either run obsecure / uncommon walls that has hard time with the rest of the meta or limit attackers' movepool to leave it walled against larger portion of the meta.

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Onto my speech. Let's talk about this good old friend from Hoenn:


When you look at Primal Groudon, the first thing that stands out is its fantastic Ground / Fire typing. Both are excellent types and together provides unresisted neutral coverage with Thousand Arrows. On top of this fact, Primal Groudon boasts 100/160/90 bulk that lets it live almost every relevant neutral hits barring attacks like Choice Specs Rayquaza and Kyurem-W with appropriate ability. In addition, monsterous 180 Attack (which proudly is the highest among all Ground-types) is incredibly difficult to handle with its aforementioned STAB combo which is almost always unresisted. With Fire-typing that grants STAB on V-create along with 180 Attack, those who do not resist Fire is likely to lose significant portion of health or be OHKOed outright. STAB V-create assault from this monster becomes even harder to handle when it holds Choice Band and has abilities such as Desolate Land, Adaptability, Tinted Lens or Stakeout. The only defensive walls that are capable of handling this kind of attack are BH behemoths such as Giratina, Zygarde-C, or Imposter Chansey.

While Primal Groudon is able to run Choice Band and Choice Scarf which turns it into the best physical wallbreaker of the metagame or reliable revenge / surprise killer (which is viable in nearly every archetype of teams), it forces most competitive BH teams to acquire Fur Coat Giratina / Zygarde-C / Primal Kyogre to stop V-create spam. However, this is where other Primal Groudon's sets enter. It is important to note that this physically oriented 'mon also possesses 150 Sp.Atk stat, which is capable of bypassing its usual checks (Giratian and Zygarde-C) using Stakeout + Fleur Cannon / Draco Meteor, Pixilate, Galvanize, or Contrary. Aforementioned walls are easily blown up with those sets: Zygarde-C has problem handling even unboosted Refrigerate Boomburst without Assault Vest, Giratina has a chance to be taken out after a Quiver Dance, and Primal Kyogre cannot handle Primal Groudon if it has taken Galvanize Boomburst or Primal Groudon has used Shell Smash on switch-in. Thanks to Primal Groudon's typing, those special sets, barring Stakeout which requires a another ally, are easy to imposterproof by simply running Earth Plate Judgment. Some Imposter Chansey's holding Earth Plate is a phenomenon that demonstrates how problem Primal Groudon itself is in this metagame.

Going back to defensive counters, generally speaking, are very limited, and are bypassed easily. At this point, the most reliable switch-in are Giratina and Zygarde-C with Fur Coat or Poison Heal, defensive Primal Kyogre (mostly Fur Coat), Primordial Sea / Flash Fire users (which are mostly not relevant or has hard time with rest of the meta). However, each and every one of those defensive walls lose to Primal Groudon without scouting (which can potentially weaken Imposter in the process). All of them lost to Choice Band + Tinted Lens without Fur Coat, Fur Coat variants lose to special sets as mentioned, and they are all crippled to Trick / Switcheroo if they are not equipped with Z-crystal. Especially to Giratina and Zygarde-C, with Z-crystals, they cannot afford to carry Safety Goggles and will be Spored by PH Regigigas (which is what they reliably check) every time they switch in, and this will significantly ruin the momentum.
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 294-347 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 196-231 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 262-309 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 424-500 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Harsh Sunshine: 292-344 (45.9 - 54%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 390-458 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 261-307 (41 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Refrigerate Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 664-784 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 522-616 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 238-281 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Galvanize Groudon-Primal Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 226-268 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Galvanize Groudon-Primal Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 452-534 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Galvanize Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Galvanize Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 344-406 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


It is clear that these walls are the most vulnerable to Tinted Lens or Stakeout V-create.
Then why is V-create not an issue?
I am not saying V-create is not broken. It is 180 BP move that can be slapped into any relevant attacker who has trouble with Steel-types. But there are two reasons why we have to pay attention to Primal Groudon prior to that. First, V-create isn't terribly powerful if it is not STAB and has not been hit super effectively. Primal Groudon and perhaps Mega Blaziken (which is totally outclassed by the former) are the only relevant STAB V-create wallbreaker at this point, and Blaziken has high 160 Atk but it still doesn't KO important threats:

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 271-319 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 406-478 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

The second calc has respectably high chance but failure to OHKO will result in Blaziken fainting if one decided to stay in and gamble, or switching out and losing momentum if Mega Rayquaza survived V-create on switch-in. Primal Groudon's higher attack stat makes significant different of KO'ing important threats, as shown in the wall of calc above. Second reason is that if we suspect test V-create now and then it turns out Primal Groudon is still a broken 'mon in BH metagame, that will mean that we have wasted our time while we could make the metagame healthier to certain degree couple months earlier instead of having it problematic and hindering the tier.

If we take a look at stuff like MMY and Deo-A, they are stronger and faster than Primal Groudon but they are not considered broken because they are easily revenge killed without relying on APS, meaning it will be a russian roulette game when Imposter switches in and transforms, copying all those boosts. But Primal Groudon is disgustingly bulky; it is bulky enough to survive non-Choice Band Mega Garchomp's Precipice Blades and survives neutral -ate Boomburst from anyone without Choice Specs or a Plate. And it is not like Primal Groudon has reliable defensive counterplay or anything (I spent the entire time explaining how defensive counterplay is very hard if I did not make it clear).

Ultimately, I would say Primal Groudon is banworthy for these reasons:

* It is incredibly hard to stop when it has set up Shell Smash or Belly Drum, and it is too bulky to be stopped easily even at -1
* Defensive counterplay isn't always reliable and they are easily bypassed by running slightly different sets
* STAB V-create spams force every teams to specifically prepare, meaning counterplay against the rest of the metagame will be significantly limited with 1 (or more) less team slot.

Thank you for reading, and I hope everyone finds Primal Groudon banworthy as well.
 
I completely agree with you about Primal Groudon.
Even Fur Coat Giratina can be 2HKOed by tinted lens V-create after rocks or burn damage, if it is running minimum speed, since Groudon with an adamant nature outspeess it even at -1 - and minimum speed on Giratina is very common because of Core Enforcer and slow pivoting.

Apart from PDon, the second thing which should be looked at, is sleep (-clause).
 
On top of this fact, Primal Groudon boasts 100/160/90 bulk that lets it live almost every relevant neutral hits barring attacks like Choice Specs Rayquaza and Kyurem-W with appropriate ability.


At this point, the most reliable switch-in are Giratina and Zygarde-C with Fur Coat or Poison Heal, defensive Primal Kyogre (mostly Fur Coat), Primordial Sea / Flash Fire users (which are mostly not relevant or has hard time with rest of the meta). However, each and every one of those defensive walls lose to Primal Groudon without scouting (which can potentially weaken Imposter in the process). All of them lost to Choice Band + Tinted Lens without Fur Coat, Fur Coat variants lose to special sets as mentioned, and they are all crippled to Trick / Switcheroo if they are not equipped with Z-crystal.


I am not saying V-create is not broken. It is 180 BP move that can be slapped into any relevant attacker who has trouble with Steel-types. But there are two reasons why we have to pay attention to Primal Groudon prior to that. First, V-create isn't terribly powerful if it is not STAB and has not been hit super effectively.
Firstly sorry I couldn't quite those separately, I don't know how to on android :/

Ok 1) You mention specs Ray however as we can see specs is not necessary for the KO (especially after hazards):
252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 357-421 (88.5 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
You also don't mention mmy which is one of the few other things that gets a neutral OHKO, but I admit these are about the 3 hardest hitting things in the meta (besides PDon itself).

2) As well as the special/mixed sets you mentioned which can easily break, or even OHKO, it's few checks (I didn't notice you explicitly mention Stakeout with Fleur Canon but this further strengthens your point) you can also run team support such as drought to do something amazing: in sun banded tinted lens can 2HKO fur coat Zygod and Giratina with V-create. Let's just think about that - the bulkiest mon in the game with Fur Coat that has a set specifically designed to check something can still get 2HKOed by a resisted hit. Ouch.

3)I disagree with your logic to suspecting PDon first since you state the advantages of it but fail to mention any disadvantages. Namely if we suspect PDon first and still find V-Create banworthy we will have wasted time we could have been suspecting other things (or enjoying a stable meta) and we might have just banned something completely unnecessarily. (Not that I disagree with you, PDon is broken imo, I just thought the flip side of the argument needed stating.)
 
If v-create gets banned, Pdon still has precipice blades, arrows and flare blitz/sacred fire to do massive damage.
The thing is though it's still going to do a lot of damage, but the next best fire move is only 2/3 as strong as V-create meaning it would have to be banded to have the same damage output. I agree pdon would still be good but at least it would have to run items/abilities/coverage moves rather than just being able to click V-create and watch things die.
 
Some Imposter Chansey's holding Earth Plate is a phenomenon that demonstrates how problem Primal Groudon itself is in this metagame.
While Earth Plate on Imposters does allow them to beat Primal Groudon, it is not run solely because of Primal Groudon. Several mons that rely on plates to improof coincidentally are weak to Earth Plate Judgment, such as Zekrom, Reshiram, Dialga, Gengar, and even your own Stakeout MMY.

Speaking of earth plate imposter:
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I agree with a suspect of Primal Groudon and have felt this same sentiment ever since it was introduced back into the metagame since the beginning of this gen. As mentioned previously, what makes Primal Groudon stand out compared to other potent wallbreakers such as Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Rayquaza is its incredible STAB combination which capitalizes greatly on the popularity of certain defensive pivots which are unable to stomach its attacks apart from the defensive Dragons in Zygarde-C and Giratina. This alone places an inherent constraint on teambuilding and has thus been creating an unhealthy trend when building since most consistent teams almost necessitate the use of the aforementioned Dragon-types in order to at least have a switchin against physical variants of Pdon. When looking at the banning philosophy:

Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
  • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
When looking at Primal Groudon, its BST enables hit to perform roles as either a powerful physical or special wallbreaker, and when factoring its incredible STAB combination on top of its ability to run viable lure sets to circumvent its checks, Primal Groudon establishes itself as one of the most capable wallbreakers in the metagame which can be almost impossible at times do give up as an option when teambuilding. While I concede that other offensive threats such as Mega Ray and Mega Gengar also create a similar pressure on metagame thanks to their own offensive capabilities, I believe that nothing really compares the potency that Primal Groudon imposes at the current moment. The fact that it can run several almost equally viable abilities such as Tinted Lens, Contrary, Pixilate/Refrigerate/Galvanize, Desolate Land, Stakeout, etc.. can make it extremely difficult to scout and properly account for when deciding what will answer opposing Pdons on your team.

Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
  • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
This kinda re-iterates what I mentioned previously, but since Primal Groudon can utilize a multitude of viable offensive sets, it can be extremely difficult to properly switch in to it without sacking a mon or two to properly scout. Other great wallbreaking sets like Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Ray and Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y can also necessitate the use of specific checks on every team dont get me wrong, but accounting for every possible offensive Primal Grodon set that requires distinct and extremely specific appropriate checks to it is simply impossible at this given moment in the metagame, and is why the most consistent teams can easily be swept when facing certain Pdon variants. Even if the builder would try to account for all its sets, the collective constraint that other wallbreakers enforce (like MMY, Ray, and Gar) on top of Primal Groudon's volatile capabilities just makes futile.

Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
    • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
  • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other
This is the point that I feel sums up Primal Groudon's toxicity the most. I personally believe it is singlehandly the most centralizing force in the metagame atm apart from Imposter due to its amazing damage output on top of the multitude of sets it can run. Account for it completely is simply necessary but at the same time impossible as I mentioned before, thus creating a stale metagame where the correct Primal Groudon set can often win games. While of course one can run an offensive team without using Primal Groudon (as I have done many times in the past), I still feel the builder is passing up so much when considering how influential Primal Groudon can be when deciding games. While checks to its most common sets are definitely not niche and are quite popular (ie: defensive dragons and other miscellaneous things Like Mega Slowbro and Primal Kyogre), I feel this directly correlates to its influence on the tier and makes certain temabuilding options not even optional at this point.

I honestly thought that it would have become more manageable in a metgame where defensive pivots can invest in both their defensive stats, I quickly noticed that this had not been the case, since Pdon is still capable of causing a nuisance to the majority of viable defensive answers in the meta.

Relevant Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-600855055 <- Pdon lures in its check and would have proceeding to break through the rest of the opposing team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-575817478 <- Achieves one opportunity to setup and sweeps

So me and my broken, incoherent english (its also like 1am for me rn) are suggesting a suspect on Primal Groudon

Edit: I would also like to stress that I understand OMPL is currently underway and potentially removing an integral threat in the metagame might infer with building, thus I woudnt mind waiting till after its finished (although it would be nice to play in a more healthier format)
 
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On Primal Groudon: I think my big problems with it are its sheer versatility and its stifling of diversity (which I'm not sure is grounds for arguing a suspect according to the topic's rules, but, from a game play perspective, is a pretty big deal.) But, for the former, Groudon can run pretty much almost every viable ability in BH and use them, to be redundant, viably. I even made a list here, and its scary how many of these can work. Not all of them are the most optimal choices, but there's so many viable choices you can't prepare for them all. And, as been stated several times, many of the next-best-sets after the most optimal ones check or counter Primaldon's usual checks and have the added bonus of naturally luring them in. And this is partly why Primaldon spam teams can be so effective, moreso than other spam teams.

On diversity, Primal Groudon puts a massive constraint on team building, pretty much forcing all teams to carry at least one check/counter to popular variants and strongly encourages a back-up plan just in case they have a less popular variant. As such, defensive and offensive team building is limited because, well, not accounting specifically for Primal Groudon means it stands a very high chance of winning every time it shows up. And boy, does it show up. Additionally, Primal Groudon's presence in the meta prevents Pokemon such as Garchomp-M, Reshiram, Blazekin-M, and Charizard-Both from doing a whole lot or even being usable. Essentially, one Pokemon suppresses the usability of many of its contemporaries. And lets not even start to talk about Pokemon that are hard to use, such as Xurkitree, Manectric, and Zekrom, because the near omni-presence of Primaldon squelches their viability.

Also, did I mention that Primal Groudon is one of, if not the best, physical attackers in the game and it can't be burned? Let that sink in.


On Stakeout: With Primaldon being by far the best and most common user, I'd like to see a suspect pass on Groudon first. Most other Stakeout users lack the crazy STAB coverage Groudon has, so, even with similar base stats, their sheer power is less. The closest is probably Stakeout Primal-Ogre Water Spout, which is resisted by Giratina and opposing Ogres, and Mega-Blazekin's V-Create, though its power is lower, its higher speed makes it harder to use to catch slow pivots, and... hi Giratina!

...not saying you should run Giratina on every team but, hey, it's been the most commonly used defensive Pokemon since Gen V for a reason.


On Sleep: Sleep spam has little counterplay and removes an element of skill from the game and also introduces an extra element of luck in sleep timers. You can counter-build against it, but with Knock Off and Core Enforcer running around, doing so is getting harder and harder. I'd support sleep clause, but would not be opposed to a Spore ban. Or maybe even a sleep ban, but... you guys gotta argue for that one, I'm not.

And if anyone quotes me or replies to me or PMs me to argue against an outright sleep ban, I'm ignoring your message because, again, I'm not arguing for that. ...well, maybe if I'm in a snarky mood I'll quote that sentence, but it'll be all you get!


On set-up: Shell Smash is something that's been brought up before and I think set-up continues to be problematic. Imagine you play a match mostly perfectly, you have your opponent down by three Pokemon and your whole team is healthy. You'd have to make some serious, serious missteps for your opponent to be able to outplay you and seize a win. ...except, you do something like set or remove hazards and your opponent pops a surprise Belly Drum and wins in 6 turns. All of your skillful play, tactical decisions, and careful calculations all out the window because of a surprise button click. Congrats, you were just in the second replay Funbot posted just above me. Or... you know, if that has never happened to you, then you're either new to Pokemon or you're lying through your teeth.

Now, I'm fine with comebacks and throws. But they need to happen because of good/bad decision making on both sides, not because someone spent a turn using Rapid Spin because the past 60 turns claimed it was the best possible move on that turn. The former is a hard fought comeback by the losing player and is pretty awesome. The latter? It just feels bad and its not interesting nor skillful. If one-side spent the whole game setting up that sweep, as one of my teams tends to do by semi-stalling and then cleaning with Quick Feet Tail Glow Mega-Ray, which is fine because I worked for it all game. A surprise Simple Shell Smash Power Trip sweep because they happened to get the user in on a turn I clicked U-Turn? Just no. As such, I think Shell Smash and Unburden + Belly Drum (or just Belly Drum itself) need to be looked at. Other set-up moves either don't boost speed without making other sacrifices, meaning they're much easier to stop, or set-up too slowly to be uncontestable in a mere turn.


Personally, I have no opinion of which of the three suspects I'd like to see go first. You guys bite each other's throats over that one.
 

E4 Flint

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Thanks Silver_Lucario42 for your post and feedback since that means that you read through the entire OP. I'll clarify some of the things that I've said there, first of all with these three points:
  • I have made the guide (not rules, laws or w/e) based on this meta and what came with it. It is a "living document" in that it will change as new things come out. I have already changed a lot of what I wrote from last gen in this iteration. So it's kinda not really logical to create hypothetical mons and sets that don't exist yet as "proof" on why it's flawed
  • As I mentioned in the FAQ,
    Is the guideline you posted like a checklist, and absolute?
    No. If you have something that clashes with what I have here, that's fine as long as you can substantiate it with sound logic and reasoning.
  • I care far far more about the banning philosophy of BH which has been defined a couple of gens ago above anything in the guideline i.e. removing the bare minimum broken component
Anyway, getting to your points, though I already mentioned that I don't really like dealing with hypotehticals:
got a couple problems with the ban guide

Cryogonal-Woke
Type: Ice
Stats: 80/50/50/200/130/145

252 SpA Choice Specs Cryogonal Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 318-376 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Cryogonal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 399-469 (95.9 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

from the other ban criteria, we can tell that this thing is pretty broken. it's pretty difficult to win without it, and a refrigerate set alone would cause a crazy influx of soundproof users and flash fire steels, and mons faster than base 145 (basically deo-a and mosa) or scarfers would be needed to check it.

how about its typing? does a weakness to sunsteel/fighting/fire/stealth rock hold it back from being broken? no. cryogonal doesn't care about your sneaky pebbles or slower sunsteel user that's about to get ohkoed.

personally i think that you used the primals (which were the only mons to get banned in bh) as a benchmark for banworthiness which makes sense but this part just seems really irrelevant.
One reason I made the Pokemon ban philosophy so strict is that I want it to be the absolute last resort. My main intent was to showcase a difference something that has the stat spread and typing of Primal Groudon, vs the stat spread of Shuckle, or the typing of Avalugg. This was also to cover the precedent of why Raymega was allowed in while Groudon and Kyogre were not, which is pretty close to both your examples. In addition, this mon specifically is already pretty similar to M2Y and DeoA in its stat spread, and they're not banned or brought up for suspect (yet) and I think that all the factors do play a part in that (i.e. defensive typing in terms of weaknesses, susceptibility to hazards etc). Imo, a mon should have something "extra" to be broken and definitely should be considered first and foremost as a "blank slate".

what if it has only one viable set but that set is considered broken?


Guzzlord-Police-Immune
Type: Dark/Dragon
Stats: 900/1/1/1/1/1

this is a really dumb (and impossible) example i know but yeah. basically this is a mon that is really really good with imposter but awful with anything else. it can run a plate or even memory viably or it can completely negate chip damage with leftovers. i think this might push imposter over the edge. but imposter chansey is fine, guzzlord is the broken component here. in 1 set it just beats everything and switches in on deo-a.
Pretty similar logic to what I said before. This is a pretty exaggerated example but is still not quite so different from why chansey itself is not banned. And also, to be clear, if we had to do a mon ban for this, I'd be fine with it since it'd be the least impactful solution, as I said in the beginning.
i think that these both have the same problem: they describe broken abilities as something you can just slap on any mon and win.

i honestly don't think that the "splashableility" part really says anything that the "extreme augmentation" part doesn't, like the examples given still fall under extreme augmentation. you literally can't counter shadow tag, and wonder guard is just moldy/sungeist/status.
Here, I was attempting to differentiate between how an ability can be pretty "splashable" but not be broken. Common examples include Magic Bounce, Adaptability, Contrary, Tinted Lens etc. Extreme augmentation is on the other side of the spectrum, like how Huge Power is so good but mainly on attackers, not really on defensive mons. That's why, ideally, you'd want both traits to be true about an ability that you want to ban.
now on to extreme augmentation. i think the last part is the one that doesn't really make sense: "the choice of mon, item and even moveset is irrelevant." like of course they're relevant, water bubble isn't broken if you don't have a strong water move or an attacking stat above araquanid's. i think that the word "irrelevant" is unclear here, like it should just emphasize the fact that the ability is broken and the other stuff isn't.
You're right, it is sometimes important to consider the moveset and/or other factors, and that's why we went through with the Water Bubble ban, despite seemingly being against what I wrote. Here, I was trying to say that the ability doesn't need to be tied to a specific moveset, mon etc to be broken. Textbook cases of this are Huge Power and Parental Bond, as I stated before.
i would like to discuss stakeout next, gonna share my thoughts next post. what do you guys think about it?
I myself am considering Stakeout as the sore thumb that sticks out the most after Gengarite; in fact, I was p confident it'd eventually become banned before the gen started, but, as always, we suspect and ban on current meta trends and not theorymonning.

Thanks again for taking the time to give your feedback and I hope this answers some questions.
 
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One thing I'd like to mention about stakeout don is that it, more than any other mon, forces out the majority of the meta without the need of a boosting ability.

I mean that's pretty much the entire drawback of stakeout, if they stay in you don't his as hard as any other set, a good example would be stakeout mmy which loses a great deal of power and opportunity to check stuff because it just can't quite force them out, stuff like groudon, kyogre, regigigas, giratina or registeel can all just stay in and take the unboosted hit. But don rocks stab v-create, which really eliminates this problem.

Just for comparison's sake, V-create from groudon without the help of an ability is more powerful than Sunsteel Strike from steelworker Kartana, Dragon Ascend from Adaptability Rayquaza or Close Combat from Tough Claws mmx.

I'm not saying stakeout is not a problem on other things (it is), I'm just saying groudon is by far the best user for this reason.



Regarding sleep spam, with every attacker being so damn fat nowadays, and misses being affordable against defensive mons, I'm seeing more and more people who started to run Lovely Kiss as their sleep move, which eliminates the main sleep counterplay. And I wouldn't be surprised if this trend carries on further.
 
Alright, I don't like posting, but due to the fact that I couldn't get an intelligent response out of the BH discord, I've decided to take this problem here. This problem, is Stakeout.

Ok, so the first thing I'd like to cover here is the thing that the BH discord is so very concerned with. Primal Groudon. The #1 argument they like to throw out there for keeping Stakeout in the meta is that the only Pokemon that uses it well is Primal Groudon, and that that is the thing that should be banned. While I do have a complicated opinion on Groudon, that isn't what this post is about. So yes, it is the best Stakeout user. Does that make all other users unviable? No. With Groudon in the tier however, it turns an already broken ability into a nightmare for any team that sees the Pokemon on the other side of the field.

But let's take Groudon out of the equation. Let's say, we were to ban the Pokemon like everyone in the discord wants...

The first Pokemon that comes to my mind of being able to use Stakeout is Mega Rayquaza. With the dream offenses of 180/180, this Pokemon is the perfect example of why an ability like Stakeout is broken in a meta where you can run any move. Let's take the first set I came across when asking people for Mega Ray sets: Draco / V-Create / Volt Switch / Dragon Ascent. Now let's look at this Pokemon's match up vs. Flint's sample team, which is the first team listed here. The thing that stands out the most when I see this is Rayquaza doesn't have a switch in, and the way to play around it is to either get chip with your own Rayquaza's Fake Out / Extreme Speed, or speed tie with Chansey or the Specs Ray. So there are no directly faster threats, which causes major issues for a team like Flint's. Now you can argue that if you predict right vs. the Ray it won't be a problem, but no one is going to be right 100% of the time, and no one should have to rely on the opponent not clicking a certain move in a 6v6 match up. If Zyg is in against Stakeout Ray, you could try to send out Audino but what if the opponent clicks V-Create expecting Solgaleo? Audino is now dead. Now of course you can now send in the Specs Rayquaza to revenge it, but after a while thanks to a slow pivot or a Pokemon dying, Rayquaza is going to come back in and pick up another kill. If we take Stakeout out of this match up, what changes? Chansey now becomes a viable switch in to the Ray, Audino is no longer OHKO'd, Zygarde can take a Draco if need be, and overall the Pokemon now becomes much more manageable to switch around. But whenever I mentioned a set that has great match up vs. the meta, the discord immediately argued that you have to run something off the wall to counter it. That's not the case at all here however. Since most Chansey's don't carry a Life Orb / Choice Specs / Choice Band, the impostered Ray is already out a lot of power. Without that, Fur Coat Chansey now becomes a viable wall, a Flash Fire Steel type now becomes a viable wall. And these aren't niche sets either, both are perfectly reasonable in the current meta. Let's look at a different Mega Rayquaza set as well. Haylighter's Choice Specs Rayquaza set with Aeroblast / Draco / Volt Switch / Trick. In a match up against normal switch ins to this Pokemon, such as Audino, Chansey, Tyranitar, and Steel types, this set would excel. Chansey is now in range to be 2HKO'd by Aeroblast, Audino with max special defense is now in an unfavorable roll to be OHKO'd, Mega Tyranitar with max special defense in the sand is in an unfavorable roll to be OHKO'd with rocks up, and numerous steel types can be 2HKO'd, or for the ones holding an Assault Vest, they can be Tricked and become near useless for the rest of the match. And again, this set is easily imposter-proofed with any steel type (bar Celesteela) or decent special wall.

Let's move on from Mega Rayquaza though, let's instead focus on a set RNGisFatal was so focused on in the discord. Stakeout Mega Mewtwo X with Close Combat, Sunsteel Strike, V-Create, and Fleur Cannon. (Hopefully that's right cause he changed the set after I disproved the other one). So he said someone on high ladder used this set, but was forced to use an unconventional imposter-proofing method of Fur Coat Ho-Oh. This brought up the argument that you are being forced to trade a slot on your team for a normally useless wall just to have a strong wall breaker. However, some of you may noticed that the poor soul who used this on the high ladder could've easily made better choices while in the team builder. In this case, a better substitute for Fur Coat Ho-Oh could've been a Flash Fire Aegislash. This Pokemon would do a perfect job of making sure those menacing Imposter Chanseys don't run through your team with your own Pokemon. Now let's look at what this Mega Mewtwo X does the the poor souls who don't have the luxury of Flash Fire Aegislash on their team. Common answers to MMX like Giratina and Mega Slowbro are blown away by Fleur Cannon, as is a Chansey attempting to Imposter it. Anything else runs into trouble when trying to switch in as well. Now let's look at the situation without Stakeout once again. Now Slowbro, Giratina, Zygarde, and others can switch in safely not making you think twice about killing a Pokemon and giving Mega Mewtwo X a free switch in.

As to not bore the readers with constant examples, this concludes my reasoning for why Stakeout is broken. When put together with Primal Groudon, the ability is terrible, and it is easy to blame it on the Pokemon using it. But take away a Pokemon, it's easy to find a replacement. And you can keep banning Pokemon, but there will always be another Pokemon that is able to run Stakeout to provide terrible match ups for any team. I believe that Stakeout should be banned before anything else, and after that we can see how the meta deals with threats like Primal Groudon.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
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Alright, I don't like posting, but due to the fact that I couldn't get an intelligent response out of the BH discord, I've decided to take this problem here. This problem, is Stakeout.

Ok, so the first thing I'd like to cover here is the thing that the BH discord is so very concerned with. Primal Groudon. The #1 argument they like to throw out there for keeping Stakeout in the meta is that the only Pokemon that uses it well is Primal Groudon, and that that is the thing that should be banned. While I do have a complicated opinion on Groudon, that isn't what this post is about. So yes, it is the best Stakeout user. Does that make all other users unviable? No. With Groudon in the tier however, it turns an already broken ability into a nightmare for any team that sees the Pokemon on the other side of the field.

But let's take Groudon out of the equation. Let's say, we were to ban the Pokemon like everyone in the discord wants...

The first Pokemon that comes to my mind of being able to use Stakeout is Mega Rayquaza. With the dream offenses of 180/180, this Pokemon is the perfect example of why an ability like Stakeout is broken in a meta where you can run any move. Let's take the first set I came across when asking people for Mega Ray sets: Draco / V-Create / Volt Switch / Dragon Ascent. Now let's look at this Pokemon's match up vs. Flint's sample team, which is the first team listed here. The thing that stands out the most when I see this is Rayquaza doesn't have a switch in, and the way to play around it is to either get chip with your own Rayquaza's Fake Out / Extreme Speed, or speed tie with Chansey or the Specs Ray. So there are no directly faster threats, which causes major issues for a team like Flint's. Now you can argue that if you predict right vs. the Ray it won't be a problem, but no one is going to be right 100% of the time, and no one should have to rely on the opponent not clicking a certain move in a 6v6 match up. If Zyg is in against Stakeout Ray, you could try to send out Audino but what if the opponent clicks V-Create expecting Solgaleo? Audino is now dead. Now of course you can now send in the Specs Rayquaza to revenge it, but after a while thanks to a slow pivot or a Pokemon dying, Rayquaza is going to come back in and pick up another kill. If we take Stakeout out of this match up, what changes? Chansey now becomes a viable switch in to the Ray, Audino is no longer OHKO'd, Zygarde can take a Draco if need be, and overall the Pokemon now becomes much more manageable to switch around. But whenever I mentioned a set that has great match up vs. the meta, the discord immediately argued that you have to run something off the wall to counter it. That's not the case at all here however. Since most Chansey's don't carry a Life Orb / Choice Specs / Choice Band, the impostered Ray is already out a lot of power. Without that, Fur Coat Chansey now becomes a viable wall, a Flash Fire Steel type now becomes a viable wall. And these aren't niche sets either, both are perfectly reasonable in the current meta. Let's look at a different Mega Rayquaza set as well. Haylighter's Choice Specs Rayquaza set with Aeroblast / Draco / Volt Switch / Trick. In a match up against normal switch ins to this Pokemon, such as Audino, Chansey, Tyranitar, and Steel types, this set would excel. Chansey is now in range to be 2HKO'd by Aeroblast, Audino with max special defense is now in an unfavorable roll to be OHKO'd, Mega Tyranitar with max special defense in the sand is in an unfavorable roll to be OHKO'd with rocks up, and numerous steel types can be 2HKO'd, or for the ones holding an Assault Vest, they can be Tricked and become near useless for the rest of the match. And again, this set is easily imposter-proofed with any steel type (bar Celesteela) or decent special wall.

Let's move on from Mega Rayquaza though, let's instead focus on a set RNGisFatal was so focused on in the discord. Stakeout Mega Mewtwo X with Close Combat, Sunsteel Strike, V-Create, and Fleur Cannon. (Hopefully that's right cause he changed the set after I disproved the other one). So he said someone on high ladder used this set, but was forced to use an unconventional imposter-proofing method of Fur Coat Ho-Oh. This brought up the argument that you are being forced to trade a slot on your team for a normally useless wall just to have a strong wall breaker. However, some of you may noticed that the poor soul who used this on the high ladder could've easily made better choices while in the team builder. In this case, a better substitute for Fur Coat Ho-Oh could've been a Flash Fire Aegislash. This Pokemon would do a perfect job of making sure those menacing Imposter Chanseys don't run through your team with your own Pokemon. Now let's look at what this Mega Mewtwo X does the the poor souls who don't have the luxury of Flash Fire Aegislash on their team. Common answers to MMX like Giratina and Mega Slowbro are blown away by Fleur Cannon, as is a Chansey attempting to Imposter it. Anything else runs into trouble when trying to switch in as well. Now let's look at the situation without Stakeout once again. Now Slowbro, Giratina, Zygarde, and others can switch in safely not making you think twice about killing a Pokemon and giving Mega Mewtwo X a free switch in.

As to not bore the readers with constant examples, this concludes my reasoning for why Stakeout is broken. When put together with Primal Groudon, the ability is terrible, and it is easy to blame it on the Pokemon using it. But take away a Pokemon, it's easy to find a replacement. And you can keep banning Pokemon, but there will always be another Pokemon that is able to run Stakeout to provide terrible match ups for any team. I believe that Stakeout should be banned before anything else, and after that we can see how the meta deals with threats like Primal Groudon.
first off not to be rude but what's with that tone? you're like "looks like i can't get an intelligent response out of the discord...you see now that even if we went along with what you discord guys want then the meta would still be bad because of stakeout ray!"

secondly i said i would share my thoughts on stakeout so here we go

in the example you gave, stakeout ray would have a much harder time breaking that team in practice than you seem to be insinuating in theory. like the only thing ray is actually forcing out is weakened zyg/solg, anything else has to be at 40% or something unless you like playing speed tie games with your breaker. if zyg is at full hp, it can just take the draco and roost off the damage (252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 444-524 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). fur coat means that it's difficult to get zyg in this range with u-turns alone, life orb isn't even a guaranteed kill from full (and means that ray will get worn down very quickly). solgaleo just clicks u-turn to switch in ray. prediction is also really important.

i am using stakeout pheromosa which is honestly really good. the goal of the set is to force out bois like mmy.
replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604522385 vs. rng (go to turn 89)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604534658 vs. semako (turn 67)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-600558531 vs. anna (whole match)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604544608 vs. shedmiddlefinga (whole match, also note his own stakeout mmy)

one of these things is not like the others

anyway if you watch the replays you will see that pheromosa is actually very prediction reliant, like in some situations i had mosa click draco vs mmy and i flat out lost if mmy stayed in. such is the life of a stakeout pheromosa user. because of this i think that stakeout pheromosa is not broken

anyway i think that pdon is 100% broken but i am on the fence about stakeout, i would like to test out different mons with it and see how they do. also please post replays if you want to argue a certain way.
 
first off not to be rude but what's with that tone? you're like "looks like i can't get an intelligent response out of the discord...you see now that even if we went along with what you discord guys want then the meta would still be bad because of stakeout ray!"

secondly i said i would share my thoughts on stakeout so here we go

in the example you gave, stakeout ray would have a much harder time breaking that team in practice than you seem to be insinuating in theory. like the only thing ray is actually forcing out is weakened zyg/solg, anything else has to be at 40% or something unless you like playing speed tie games with your breaker. if zyg is at full hp, it can just take the draco and roost off the damage (252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 444-524 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). fur coat means that it's difficult to get zyg in this range with u-turns alone, life orb isn't even a guaranteed kill from full (and means that ray will get worn down very quickly). solgaleo just clicks u-turn to switch in ray. prediction is also really important.

i am using stakeout pheromosa which is honestly really good. the goal of the set is to force out bois like mmy.
replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604522385 vs. rng (go to turn 89)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604534658 vs. semako (turn 67)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-600558531 vs. anna (whole match)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604544608 vs. shedmiddlefinga (whole match, also note his own stakeout mmy)

one of these things is not like the others

anyway if you watch the replays you will see that pheromosa is actually very prediction reliant, like in some situations i had mosa click draco vs mmy and i flat out lost if mmy stayed in. such is the life of a stakeout pheromosa user. because of this i think that stakeout pheromosa is not broken

anyway i think that pdon is 100% broken but i am on the fence about stakeout, i would like to test out different mons with it and see how they do. also please post replays if you want to argue a certain way.
Yes I was addressing the discord, since they agreed that they were giving shit responses they also thought it would be best if I took my argument here. And as I said, I was simply giving a couple examples, as to not overload the audience with one post.

And I really didn't know what point you were trying to prove when reading what you said. Thanks for the wrap up sentence that really cleared it up. And here's the thing, any ability is going to look like shit when you put it on a shit mon. I like Pherosma and all, but you can't claim a Pokemon is "honestly really good" and then post two replays where the mon fails and the other where it picks up a kill against someone using Poison Fang Giratina. That just tells me you need to stop using this mediocre mon and use the ability correctly. And as a side note, if you are using Stakeout Pherosma and have it in against Mega Mewtwo Y, why are you clicking anything other than U-Turn? That's a free pivot to get in another Stakeout mon that forces out Gira! And just so you know, Ray wasn't the only mon I talked about. I gave another example that was used as an argument in the discord against me, but you never brought that up. Is it cause the point is valid? Is it cause using Stakeout on a relevant mon in the tier instead of one that shares the same viability rank as memes like Pidgeot and Pikachu is actually a decent idea? Whatever the reason may be, you still missed the fact that mons force switches, and when Stakeout is in the meta, switches become less of an option.
 
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Stakeout is a different problem, Groudon is broken with a lot of abilities. Tinted Lens for example provides a “permanent stakeout boost“ to v-create against Groudon's most common switchins - Giratina, Zygod, Kyogre...), and can 2HKO even Fur Coat Giratina after rocks or burn damage.
Other abilities like Pixilate can be used with an Earth Plate and Shell Smash/Quiver Dance to lure in and defeat Groudon's most common answers while being fully improof.
Desolate Land (which is PDon's default ability!) can be used to gain a water immunity and to boost v-create even further.....

It's not v-create, which breaks PDon and it is not Stakeout, it is the excellent combination PDon provides: stellar offensive stats, enormous physical bulk, unresisted STAB combination and its nearly unmatched versatility which allows it to lure in and defeat its usual checks better than anything else.

I'm not against banning stakeout, but PDon itself should be suspected first - and don't forget about sleep which is imho a bigger problem than stakeout (which is somehow held in check by the fact that imposter exist and for example forces Silver Lucario to run Ho-oh, which is pretty bad in BH)
 
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morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Since the suspect for MagPull + Gengarite is (supposedly) over, I'd like to discuss Stakeout for the next suspect test. Before I give my opinion though, it seems that people have the misconception that Tinted Lens is simply a "superior" Stakeout. This could not be more incorrect since Stakeout is in fact superior to Tinted in most cases. The reason for this is mainly due to the fact that Tinted only boosts resisted moves, while Stakeout boosts all moves (given the opponent switches of course). Take Pdon as an example, even a Stakeout boosted EQ does more damage than a Tinted Vcreate on something like a Giratina. So in essence, the requirement for Stakeout being superior to Tinted Lens is that the opponent switches.

Stakeout is a tricky case; the ability itself isn't splashable and will not be viable on any mon it gets slapped on. The ideal case of a Stakeout user would be something that is bulky enough to not get KOd by walls in case of a misprediction, and at the same time is able to force the opponent to switch every time (or almost every time) it comes in. But when this ability is good on a mon, there are basically no switchins at all. Pdon is of course a great user of Stakeout since it forces switches almost all the time and is very bulky, but that's not the only viable user. Mega Ray, Pgre, Mmy, and Mmx are all great potential Stakeout users. A mon such as Pheromosa on the other hand simply lacks the offensive stats and also the bulk to be able to be a reliable user of this ability imo since then, as already mentioned, mispredictions can have very bad results.

The aforementioned mons already have very limited switchins (which implies that the opponent needs to switch to the appropriate wall to be able to take it on), but thanks to Stakeout even those switchins won't be able to reliably wall them. Take for example a mixed Pdon set with V-create, Thousand Arrows/Pblades, Bolt Strike, and Fleur Cannon. Even the usual Fur Coat answers cannot wall this Pdon, and this is without any boosting item!

FC Giratina: 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
FC Zyg-c: 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
FC MegaBro: 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 287-338 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
FC Pgre: 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
RegenVest Giratina: 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 349-412 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Regenvest Zyg-c: 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 346-408 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
RegenVest Zyg-c: 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 436-516 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


As you can see, the only commonly used Pdon answer that can avoid getting 2HKOed on the switchin is RegenVest Zygarde-c (which isn't even that common of a set tbh), which even then won't be able to do so repeatedly. Additionally, if Fleur Cannon is switched to Ice Beam, even RegenVest Zyg-c won't be able to "wall" the Pdon. Also, keep in mind that the calcs for RegenVest users were done assuming a +Def nature in the case of physical moves and +SpD for special moves, which is obviously not possible (the mon can't have + for two natures).

Some of you might say "well, just don't switch." That is unfortunately not possible either as there aren't many mons out there that could even stay in on Pdon, even if it won't be able to benefit from its ability if they do stay in. Also keep in mind that up until now, we have been assuming that the Pdon has no item. If we add something like a Choice Band or LO to the equation, things start to get really ugly really quick.

Some others claim that Stakeout isn't broken, Pdon is. Pdon is indeed also a problem, but even in a meta without Pdon, there are still quite a few good Stakeout users out there which I have already mentioned; all of which could be designed in a way that they would also have no switchins.

The main drawback of Stakeout is Improofing it; a mon with no switchins isn't easy to Improof, especially if it has no switchins without even holding an item. This means that you cannot give it the Specs Aerilate Ray treatment and Improof with a common wall that could wall an itemless version of your mon. This Pdon in this case (the one with Ice Beam) could be Improofed by something like a FC Mega Swampert, which even then is a very shaky answer and won't be able to wall Lucky Punch or Light Ball variants of Imposter. This is also easily fixed by giving the Stakeout user a Plate, making your common wall able to switch into it while other common walls won't be able to do the same thing.

In conclusion, Stakeout is an ability that gives mons that already have very limited switchins a way to be able to patch up the remaining weaknesses they have left, turning them into "perfect" wallbreakers. While being very difficult to Improof, this small inconvenience is also solved by giving the user a Plate item (or any equivalent). Even without holding a Plate, if an Improof mon is found (which will most likely be an unusual mon with only 1 job, making it a waste of a teamslot most of the time), having that Stakeout user will generally compensate for having essentially a 5-mon team as the Stakeout mon will almost always get a KO whenever it comes in. The existence of an ability which has no counterplay is unhealthy for the meta imo, which is why I think Stakeout should be suspected next.
 
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MAMP

MAMP!
i mean, ideally the banning process would be fast enough that we wouldn't have to argue about what to suspect next when its obvious to everybody that there's still a bunch of broken stuff left in the metagame, but i digress

i would argue that primal groudon is a much better choice than stakeout for the next suspect for 2 reasons.

1) its the primary abuser of stakeout and would undoubtedly be suspected later if we did stakeout now. suspecting pdon first lets us make a better judgment on stakeout by making sure that stakeout actually is broken individually and is not just being broken by pdon

2) most of the problems with bh atm stem from the massive strain on teambuilding created by the sheer quantity of powerful offensive threats in the tier. pdon is arguably the worst offender in this regard, as its counters are mostly very specific and you generally need to run at least two of them to cover the obscene amount of viable sets it can run. removing pdon from the meta frees up teambuilding enormously and makes it easier to tell if other potentially banworthy threats (stakeout, psurge, shell smash, pogre, ate, etc) are actually broken in their own right or if their brokenness is just a symptom of pdon's effect on the meta
 
Stakeout doesn't "force you to run bad imposterproofing", players just usually prefer to be walled by uncommon mons and some take it a bit far, it's not an uncommon practice in BH and it most certainly isn't restricted to stakeout. Yes imposterproofing stakeout is hard, but it's doable and it is so without using shit that has no other meta niche. Just because ppl post replays with ho-oh or tapu bulu does not mean that it's the only solution.

With blades / draco / v-create / bolt strike Groudon for example, you can wall most sets with av zygarde while still being able to beat opposing av zygardes due to lo boost on blades, you can also actually switch on any move with PH zygarde and recover off (blades + jolly draco do 110 max), you can run fur coat swampert or fur coat arceus and eat any hit and all thoses mons are viable mons in the meta that aren't restricted to just imposterproofing your team. But stakeout can also be perfectly viable on much easier to wall stuff, such as blades / draco / vcreate don with ff celesteela in the back or ice plater judgment groudon with giratina or zygarde. There's a lot of ways to play around with stakeout and have good imposterproofing, for example silver lcuario could also use regenvest giratina, an really viable mon in the current meta. He could use most tapu fini variants, regenvest lugia, most aegislash sets, defensive, PH or regen groudon, poison heal maudino or even mmx, there's still a margin of decision and you can run a myriad of different moves to fit your team better while still taking out the shit you wanna take out.
 
I really don't think Stakeout should be next. Is it a problematic ability? Possibly. Its really strong, but its not... Water Bubble strong. Or Huge Power Strong. Or, you know, like the others. Its conditional, but its really good when the conditions are met. Its also fairly prediction based. You must send it against something you expect to force out AND it must actually switch out faster than you attack (hello slow pivot meta). DG9's Ray, for example, only 3HKOs +Def MAudino when running +Atk. Its very narrow off a 2HKO but Ray has to spam moves that weaken its speed and defenses considerably, which can be rather problematic if Audino has Core Enforcer or is one of the odd Moonblast or Metal Burst variants. And if its carrying something like Will-o-Wisp or King's Shield, Ray loses barring hax.

Really though, the big, big, big reason Stakeout should wait is there's little hard evidence being shown that its more problematic than other issues. This is ESPECIALLY the case with Pdon, who's both a prime Stakeout user and a prime suspect on its own merits. The most convincing arguments use Pdon. Need a replay of Pdon doing stuff? Just go play one or two ladder games, it'll find you. Stakeout though? All we have are Pdon replays, Pheremosa replays, and I think RNG beat SL with double Stakeout in the OMFL. I see a lot of calcs and theorymon sets being thrown around (heck, I did it too in the above paragraph) but, having not seen Stakeout run rampant in the meta and very few replays showcasing not-Groudon, I'm not convinced its the most important thing to suspect.

-Groudon can sweep a whole unprepared team without breaking a sweat with a huge variety of sets without breaking a sweat. (And it needs to avoid doing so since its 4x weak to water.) And proof of it being problematic is plastered all over the ladder.

-Certain set up moves can enable a sweep of the whole team in six turns if given one chance under the right conditions, no matter how badly the set-up user was playing to that point. This happens commonly enough that you'll likely see it happen in a ladder session unless you run tons of anti-set-up. (Prankster Haze Registeel + Unaware Gyarados or some crap.) And its so easy the low ladder can do it!

-Sleep spam can render a whole team defenseless unless prepared for and cannot be 100% countered as someone really determined to put you to sleep will find a way to do so unless you run like 6x Flame Orbs. And you'll be hard pressed to find a team without sleep on the ladder.

-Stakeout can one potentially-shot something with the right prediction and right item. But after that, it's done and potentially gives up all momentum until the opponent switches again. This can be great if you nail a critical wall, but it can also bite you in the ass if they then nail YOUR critical wall when your Stakeout user switches out or, worse, use the turn to set-up a Belly Drum or something and sweep. And this assumes they don't outslow and pivot something in that forces the Stakeout user out to begin with. In my experience, you'll also find it difficult to find a Stakeout user who isn't Groudon to begin with.


TL;DR: Stakeout might be problematic, but we have a few things that are, IMO, clearly more problematic, one of which may alleviate Stakeout's problems.


Also, now that the voting is finished, I do have some commentary on the suspect process itself, but I think I'll wait a bit to organize my thoughts and probably post it to the main BH thread to avoid derailing the conversation here.
 
I really don't think Stakeout should be next. Is it a problematic ability? Possibly. Its really strong, but its not... Water Bubble strong. Or Huge Power Strong. Or, you know, like the others. Its conditional, but its really good when the conditions are met. Its also fairly prediction based. You must send it against something you expect to force out AND it must actually switch out faster than you attack (hello slow pivot meta). DG9's Ray, for example, only 3HKOs +Def MAudino when running +Atk. Its very narrow off a 2HKO but Ray has to spam moves that weaken its speed and defenses considerably, which can be rather problematic if Audino has Core Enforcer or is one of the odd Moonblast or Metal Burst variants. And if its carrying something like Will-o-Wisp or King's Shield, Ray loses barring hax.

Really though, the big, big, big reason Stakeout should wait is there's little hard evidence being shown that its more problematic than other issues. This is ESPECIALLY the case with Pdon, who's both a prime Stakeout user and a prime suspect on its own merits. The most convincing arguments use Pdon. Need a replay of Pdon doing stuff? Just go play one or two ladder games, it'll find you. Stakeout though? All we have are Pdon replays, Pheremosa replays, and I think RNG beat SL with double Stakeout in the OMFL. I see a lot of calcs and theorymon sets being thrown around (heck, I did it too in the above paragraph) but, having not seen Stakeout run rampant in the meta and very few replays showcasing not-Groudon, I'm not convinced its the most important thing to suspect.

-Groudon can sweep a whole unprepared team without breaking a sweat with a huge variety of sets without breaking a sweat. (And it needs to avoid doing so since its 4x weak to water.) And proof of it being problematic is plastered all over the ladder.

-Certain set up moves can enable a sweep of the whole team in six turns if given one chance under the right conditions, no matter how badly the set-up user was playing to that point. This happens commonly enough that you'll likely see it happen in a ladder session unless you run tons of anti-set-up. (Prankster Haze Registeel + Unaware Gyarados or some crap.) And its so easy the low ladder can do it!

-Sleep spam can render a whole team defenseless unless prepared for and cannot be 100% countered as someone really determined to put you to sleep will find a way to do so unless you run like 6x Flame Orbs. And you'll be hard pressed to find a team without sleep on the ladder.

-Stakeout can one potentially-shot something with the right prediction and right item. But after that, it's done and potentially gives up all momentum until the opponent switches again. This can be great if you nail a critical wall, but it can also bite you in the ass if they then nail YOUR critical wall when your Stakeout user switches out or, worse, use the turn to set-up a Belly Drum or something and sweep. And this assumes they don't outslow and pivot something in that forces the Stakeout user out to begin with. In my experience, you'll also find it difficult to find a Stakeout user who isn't Groudon to begin with.


TL;DR: Stakeout might be problematic, but we have a few things that are, IMO, clearly more problematic, one of which may alleviate Stakeout's problems.


Also, now that the voting is finished, I do have some commentary on the suspect process itself, but I think I'll wait a bit to organize my thoughts and probably post it to the main BH thread to avoid derailing the conversation here.
Again, I'm trying to avoid the Groudon situation cause when you ban a Pokemon from BH, people immediately find another Pokemon to ban. I thought that was apparent in my post, but I guess not. So what you said about Stakeout again leads to the fact that you aren't playing it right. Stakeout's best options are Pokemon that force out a range of other Pokemon in the meta, but still hit hard if they decide to stay in (again, Pherosma is not one of those Pokemon). As said earlier, Rayquaza falls under this category, but what you said tells me you aren't using it right. The idea is to bring in Ray against a mon it forces out, Audino is not one of those Pokemon. Here's some replays of Stakeout being used well.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-589298966 Stakeout Mega Garchomp rips apart a team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-601710200 Halliday's brilliant Stakeout Kartna rips VD apart (sry VD)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-602711804 And here we see Flint/Draeg's Stakeout Ray put in some fine work

The point I try to make here is that you can keep saying it's all prediction reliant, but look at Kartana replay. All Halliday had to do was click Sunsteel Strike 6 times. The counter for that mon took 80%. He didn't lose anything by click SS, the mon against it lost a bunch of hp if it stayed in, so he had to switch. Same with Garchomp. It doesn't matter if you ban Groudon, if I have a Registeel in against a Garchomp, I'm switching out my Registeel lol. It's not always going to come down to have to predict a switch, although in some cases one prediction with Stakeout kills a wall and opens up the door for whatever said wall was beating. This won't change. It doesn't always, and more often then not depending on the mon never takes a prediction to kill, or weaken something past repair. And in your last point about Stakeout, that can happen with literally any ability. If my Adaptability mon picks up a kill, but then the opponent switches in a threat that forces out my Adapt mon, they can use that turn for anything they want, that happens with any ability. That's how the game is played, hell that argument can be made for obviously broken abilities like Pure/Huge Power and Wonder Guard.

Hopefully that shows you than Groudon isnt the only Pokemon in the world that can click a powerful STAB move with little drawback.
 

cityscapes

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And here's the thing, any ability is going to look like shit when you put it on a shit mon. I like Pherosma and all, but you can't claim a Pokemon is "honestly really good" and then post two replays where the mon fails and the other where it picks up a kill against someone using Poison Fang Giratina. That just tells me you need to stop using this mediocre mon and use the ability correctly.
that just tells me you need to actually watch the replays,,

shade aside (let's stop doing that ok) i don't think you know how stakeout pheromosa works. instead of breaking holes in teams by exploiting things like mega audino and solgaleo, it does this by exploiting faster offensive mons like mega mewtwo y and mega sceptile while also threatening out registeel with close combat.
And as a side note, if you are using Stakeout Pherosma and have it in against Mega Mewtwo Y, why are you clicking anything other than U-Turn? That's a free pivot to get in another Stakeout mon that forces out Gira!
i admit that double stakeout is a relatively unexplored concept for me, like i tried it once and it didn't work because the team was built pretty horribly. but i mean if you bring out stakeout mosa on mmy intending only to click u-turn, there's not much of a point in using stakeout mosa in the first place ?_?
And just so you know, Ray wasn't the only mon I talked about. I gave another example that was used as an argument in the discord against me, but you never brought that up. Is it cause the point is valid? Is it cause using Stakeout on a relevant mon in the tier instead of one that shares the same viability rank as memes like Pidgeot and Pikachu is actually a decent idea? Whatever the reason may be, you still missed the fact that mons force switches, and when Stakeout is in the meta, switches become less of an option.
first off you need to chill. secondly i never said that stakeout wasn't broken or anything (i don't completely believe it isn't, either; read the part at the bottom) because i agree that it can be a very viable ability, even on pheromosa.
Again, I'm trying to avoid the Groudon situation cause when you ban a Pokemon from BH, people immediately find another Pokemon to ban. I thought that was apparent in my post, but I guess not.
this doesn't even make sense to me. where is the evidence for this? why is it a bad thing? either way seems very slippery slope-y
So what you said about Stakeout again leads to the fact that you aren't playing it right. Stakeout's best options are Pokemon that force out a range of other Pokemon in the meta, but still hit hard if they decide to stay in (again, Pherosma is not one of those Pokemon). As said earlier, Rayquaza falls under this category, but what you said tells me you aren't using it right. The idea is to bring in Ray against a mon it forces out, Audino is not one of those Pokemon. Here's some replays of Stakeout being used well.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-589298966 Stakeout Mega Garchomp rips apart a team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-601710200 Halliday's brilliant Stakeout Kartna rips VD apart (sry VD)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-602711804 And here we see Flint/Draeg's Stakeout Ray put in some fine work
not even going to go into the first replay here because it's full of shade, hax and dumb plays
the second replay is better. as we can see volt needed his fc chansey in order to imposter-proof kyub, but he couldn't stay in when halliday brought in his kartana. here, halliday's kartana was able to break volt's team by only clicking sunsteel. the only problem i have with this replay is this: couldn't cb steelworker kartana have done the exact same thing?
the third replay is all right but flint had already pretty much won when he had hazards up, registeel couldn't remove them and he had a good check for all of anna's offensive mons. rayquaza eventually succeeded in removing fc ogre but i really don't see how flint needed to remove it. what did ray accomplish that specs aerilate ray (with earth power, seeing as he had levitate regi) couldn't have?
The point I try to make here is that you can keep saying it's all prediction reliant, but look at Kartana replay. All Halliday had to do was click Sunsteel Strike 6 times. The counter for that mon took 80%. He didn't lose anything by click SS, the mon against it lost a bunch of hp if it stayed in, so he had to switch. Same with Garchomp. It doesn't matter if you ban Groudon, if I have a Registeel in against a Garchomp, I'm switching out my Registeel lol. It's not always going to come down to have to predict a switch, although in some cases one prediction with Stakeout kills a wall and opens up the door for whatever said wall was beating. This won't change. It doesn't always, and more often then not depending on the mon never takes a prediction to kill, or weaken something past repair. And in your last point about Stakeout, that can happen with literally any ability. If my Adaptability mon picks up a kill, but then the opponent switches in a threat that forces out my Adapt mon, they can use that turn for anything they want, that happens with any ability. That's how the game is played, hell that argument can be made for obviously broken abilities like Pure/Huge Power and Wonder Guard.

Hopefully that shows you than Groudon isnt the only Pokemon in the world that can click a powerful STAB move with little drawback.
as i was saying, stakeout on mons that are meant to click stab moves without drawbacks can be kinda nice for luring guys in, but in these replays you didn't really give a solid example of a stakeout mon being able to break a team better than its non-stakeout counterpart set.

all right

just so you know, i do agree with suspecting (but not necessarily banning) stakeout. i would just like to suspect primal groudon first largely for the reasons that mamp outlined above, and i think that although your reasoning for stakeout being suspect worthy is solid enough, your reasoning for suspecting stakeout before pdon holds absolutely no water at all.

here's what you can do to improve your argument:

post replays of many different mons (not pdon) using stakeout to beat good teams, in a way that they need stakeout to perform the task and that they couldn't just do the same thing with an established set.
actually post different stakeout sets, you seem to be alluding to them a lot.
keep an open mind. no offense meant but you seem to have a very fixed mindset regarding stakeout, like it doesn't look like you're willing to change your mind regardless of what anyone says. i should know, i was like that during the trapping suspect. and what's the point of arguing with someone who refuses to change their mind?

flint is bad thanks bye o/
 
Analyzing the replays...

First replay... not to say anything bad about Semako, but I think it was a case of poor team building and bad luck. 3 Ground-weak Pokemon vs a high-powered Ground-STAB user and no Ground resist/immunity anywhere? Additionally, had Semako led with Boomburst turn 1, Garchomp would have done zilch. Unsure on Primaldon's set. If it was banded Adamant, it had a chance to KO Garchomp. If it was Tinted, it was guaranteed regardless of item. Stakeout put in some work, but I feel more so Semako misplayed and didn't cover weaknesses properly in team building.

Second replay, that one's a good one show casing potential power of Stake Out. Though I'll mention, even with Band, it was a roll for OHKOing Giratina. Would it have mattered if a 2HKO? No idea without knowing the sets. Though I strongly disagree with "just click Sunsteel 6 times". Run the numbers: Band Kartana cannot even 2HKO Primaldon with Sunsteel unless it gets both hits on the switch. And even then its a roll, even Adamant. Unsure if Volkner had recovery or Kartana had Ground/Water coverage, but, switching into Sunsteel and Kartana not exiting would mean a dead Kartana. Solgaleo fears V-Create, but Sunsteel also does not 2HKO, letting Solgaleo simply heal up or something back. Giratina could take V-Create easily so... yeah, prediction based. After all, Kartana CAN'T do this at all without a Choice Band, so there's no simply Sunsteeling into Solgaleo/Groudon or V-Creating into Giratina and then changing moves next turn for a 2HKO. There's predictions to make and Halliday got them right.

Third replay, Stakeout Ray... hits Yveltal hard, which gets recovered off. Burns Yveltal, struggles to harm Registeel, and then KOs Kyogre. I'd hardly say Stakeout won this match-up. KOing Kyogre was neat, but not exactly the game winning move. Flint had good control over the match, enough so he could have won with a different set. Aerilate, for example, wouldn't have gotten the OHKO on that turn without an item (which Ray lost), but would have ensured 2HKO before Kyogre could move and wouldn't cost momentum from Meteor drop (which admittedy didn't matter since Flint had so much control over the match), risk missing, or do less damage had Anna not switched. Aerilate Ray could have also straight-up murdered Yveltal without losing the LO to Knock Off by using Boomburst, except if Adamant, and had more pressure over the rest of the match.


So I mean... yeah, Stakeout is strong but other than the Kartana there, I'm still not seeing evidence of it winning games single-handidly regardless of what the opponent does with anywhere near the consistency of other stuff on the table. It may be worth looking into later, but I'm still not seeing it being a bigger deal over stuff that can shut down a game on their own almost by simply existing.


As for me "not using it right", is trying to slow pivot it in on something that it beats not using it right? Its easy to say on paper "just bring it in on something you force out" but, in practice, that's actually not very easy unless the match-up is favorable or your opponent plays poorly. You can't just manually switch it in because U-Turn and Core Enforcer spam and your opponent might outslow you on the pivot unless you run bullcrap like Shuckle. In practice, I switched to Tinted Lens because it performed more consistently. They slow pivoted on my Groudon and brought in Giratina? Stakeout Primaldon is forced out. Tinted Lens? Don't give a crap, it dies to V-Create no matter how much it is or isn't switching. Unless Fur Coat but... Fur Coat works against either set here.
 
Rumors my Pdon was adamant scarf MagPull. I don't even know why I used V-create against Chomp, maybe I wanted to ice hammer it, but misclicked.

I didn't use a ground resist or immunity due to the primary ground mon, Pdon, which is better checked by something like my FC Giratina than by Ray, Yveltal or Celesteela.

Of course, I played not good, but would you expect a Garchomp staying in on Diancie?

And why is Poison Fang Giratina bad? It allows me to poison those annoying Magic Bounce M-Audinos which like to switch into Giratina's Core Enforcer.
 
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Rumors my Pdon was adamant scarf MagPull. I don't even know why I used V-create against Chomp, maybe I wanted to ice hammer it, but misclicked.

I didn't use a ground resist or immunity due to the primary ground mon, Pdon, which is better checked by something like my FC Giratina than by Ray, Yveltal or Celesteela.

Of course, I played not good, but would you expect a Garchomp staying in on Diancie?

And why is Poison Fang Giratina bad? It allows me to poison those annoying Magic Bounce M-Audinos which like to switch into Giratina's Core Enforcer.
Not here to critique your plays or anything, was mostly going over why I felt Stakeout wasn't the main contributor to Garchomp's victory there. Though I'll just say on point #3 you made, I wouldn't expect Garchomp to stay, but I also tend to fire off low-risk attacks that'd cripple/KO if they stayed in, just to ensure my opponent plays honest and doesn't try anything cheeky. I've lost waaaay too many times in the past to making assumptions or playing too timidly and then getting punished because my opponent was feeling ballsy or they were blind to the risk they were taking. (Most memorable example: I send in a known Gear Grind Solgaleo on a slow pivot against a Diancie. I switch out thinking they wouldn't dare stay in on that since even Focus Sash wouldn't save them. They Shell Smash instead and sweep me as a result and I banged my head on my desk until it was broken and I was in the hospital for a concussion.)

As for point #4, I didn't comment on Poison Fang Giratina.
 
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