Balanced Hackmons Central

I don't think Chansey should be S+ at all.
First off, it isn't better than the other S-Ranks, or much better. The S-Rank isn't crowded, either, so it isn't that there isn't enough emphasis on it.
Secondly, the entire metagame revolving around isn't an automatic pass to the best mon, or else Shedinja would be there. There is precedent elsewhere as well-
every ou team must be prepared for Sableye, every stallbreaker must beat it, and it is on almost every single stall team, yet it isn't even S-Rank. The same can be said for talonflame, despite it 6-0ing many otherwise viable teams, having many great sets, and invalidating entire archetypes.
Thirdly, I'd like to challenge the fact that its even overwhelmingly viable. To me, it's the worst or second worse of the S-Ranks (assuming protean doesn't get the boot), just because of how overprepared the metagame is for it. In fact, every single team has some, often multiple, and occasionally foolproof ways of dealing with it. The metagame isn't very kind to it at the moment, and it isn't terribly threatening to most teams.
Imposter Chansey can be turned into an active liability by combinations like the Magnet Pull Xerneas/Doom Desire Dialga one. That's a fair bit further than "Most teams can deal with it".
 
I don't think Chansey should be S+ at all.
[...]
Thirdly, I'd like to challenge the fact that its even overwhelmingly viable. To me, it's the worst or second worse of the S-Ranks (assuming protean doesn't get the boot), just because of how overprepared the metagame is for it. In fact, every single team has some, often multiple, and occasionally foolproof ways of dealing with it. The metagame isn't very kind to it at the moment, and it isn't terribly threatening to most teams.
Imposter Chansey can be turned into an active liability by combinations like the Magnet Pull Xerneas/Doom Desire Dialga one. That's a fair bit further than "Most teams can deal with it".
To me, that's just a proof of how far players are willing to go to protect their teams from Imposter Chansey, or how restrictive Chansey can be to the meta.
On another note, I'm adding Chansey is fairly independent, while the other S-ranks need support (MMY not so much), in fact, they need that support (a counter to itself) to go around Imposter.
 
If Protean will get banned, the tierlist needs to be updated.
Chansey might be S rank now, but without Protean its surly S+.
I would say no S-rank needs support.

Question; why are moves listed in the BH analysis of those pokes ?
 
To me, that's just a proof of how far players are willing to go to protect their teams from Imposter Chansey, or how restrictive Chansey can be to the meta.
On another note, I'm adding Chansey is fairly independent, while the other S-ranks need support (MMY not so much), in fact, they need that support (a counter to itself) to go around Imposter.
That doesn't mean that it's S+ rank at all, though. These aren't impact ratings, they are viability rankings. The point of them is to asses how effective a pokemon is at fulfilling roles for its team. If its overprepared for and every team counters it, it isn't useful and so shouldn't even be ranked. I mean, obviously chansey is far from useless, but the point here is that people preparing for something decreases its viability rather than increasing it.
If Protean will get banned, the tierlist needs to be updated.
Chansey might be S rank now, but without Protean its surly S+.
I would say no S-rank needs support.

Question; why are moves listed in the BH analysis of those pokes ?
Yes. Yes it will.
Why would it usrely be S+? In fact, if protean will be banned there will be 3 S ranks. There's just no point in it.
S ranks do need support, just how much they need varies. If they could easily 6-0 all teams on their own, they wouldn't be S Ranks- they would be banned.

Why wouldn't you list moves on a BH analysis?


Some more Noms!
#1: Mega Blaziken for B- rank.
Reason: It has a wide variety of sets (mold breaker, contrary, tinted lens, drought, a decent magic guard), great stats, a decent typing, and stab on the most powerful non-suicide move in the game. For the record, CB TL Mega Blaziken in the sun flat out ohko's giratina, and Mold breaker can only be walled by primsea, some niche intimidate mons like Giratina, and kings sheild. It isn't some godlike set, but its really great.

#2: Reshiram to C-
Reason: Its almost outclassed at every role it tries to fill due to its mediocre stat spread, and I just cant see it as being on the level of Mons like Palkia, Groudon, and Deoxys-Speed. Any set it tries to run is outclassed by Mega Lati@s, Palkia, or Ho-Oh, especially considering it's crippling stealth rock weakness compared to the former two.
 
Reshiram is actually unique in the fact that it has acess to STAB Overheat, V-Create and Draco Meteor for its contrary set. I think it's fine in C since it is outclassed by PDon and Ho-Oh in terms of wallbreaking and defensive utility. However with just Overheat and Draco Meteor it actually destroys M-Audino/Giratina/Registeel cores and after a V-Create it's actually hard to kill thanks to its alright defenses. I know some people might say that M-Ray is better for contrary but reshiram's V-Create is actually stronger.

4 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Reshiram is actually unique in the fact that it has acess to STAB Overheat, V-Create and Draco Meteor for its contrary set. I think it's fine in C since it is outclassed by PDon and Ho-Oh in terms of wallbreaking and defensive utility. However with just Overheat and Draco Meteor it actually destroys M-Audino/Giratina/Registeel cores and after a V-Create it's actually hard to kill thanks to its alright defenses. I know some people might say that M-Ray is better for contrary but reshiram's V-Create is actually stronger.

4 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Flame Plate Turboblaze Reshiram Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Latios Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the difference between Latios and Reshiram- when Latios is offstab. I mean, yes you want Timid Latios a lot of the time, but even with modest its still faster.
As for draco meteor?
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Purely special sets that use V-Create to boost speed are outclassed by Latios, mixed sets are worse than MRay. Unless there is some specific spread you need the KO on, there isn't a reason to run Reshiram. I can see it being ranked for those reason, but its not enough to make it C rank.
 
252 SpA Flame Plate Turboblaze Reshiram Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Latios Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the difference between Latios and Reshiram- when Latios is offstab. I mean, yes you want Timid Latios a lot of the time, but even with modest its still faster.
As for draco meteor?
The difference is Reshiram's item slot is more flexible and it also has better defensive typing in being neutral to Fairy and Ice, making it harder for something like Diancie or Kyurem to revenge. Weak to Ground and Rock instead, but Groudon can't switch into Reshy, Primal Don's Desolate Lands sorta negates its resistance, and T-Tar scares the heck out of Lati@s anyway. On T-Tar's note, Lati@s also has a crippling weakness to Knock Off, due to both type and that the Latis really need their Soul Dews to be the monsters they are. There's also niche burn immunity too, which can matter on occasion.


You're probably better with a Lati@s in most situations, hence the higher rank, but some teams would benefit more from Reshiram.
 
The difference is Reshiram's item slot is more flexible and it also has better defensive typing in being neutral to Fairy and Ice, making it harder for something like Diancie or Kyurem to revenge. Weak to Ground and Rock instead, but Groudon can't switch into Reshy, Primal Don's Desolate Lands sorta negates its resistance, and T-Tar scares the heck out of Lati@s anyway. On T-Tar's note, Lati@s also has a crippling weakness to Knock Off, due to both type and that the Latis really need their Soul Dews to be the monsters they are. There's also niche burn immunity too, which can matter on occasion.

You're probably better with a Lati@s in most situations, hence the higher rank, but some teams would benefit more from Reshiram.

Nobody uses Reshiram for a good reason.


Fairy neutral means nothing if you die to Boomburst or Fakespeed

0 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Many Groudons take Dizzle ability before changing forms.

0 Atk Turboblaze Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon in Rain: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On top of that most Steel types are either Prankster or Flash Fire.


Palkia > Dialga > Zekrom > Reshiram.

I may even say Charizard X is stronger than Reshiram.
Its faster, more Attack, better physical bulk, at cost of SpA and SpD which are irrelevant due Latitwins.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Nobody uses Reshiram for a good reason.


Fairy neutral means nothing if you die to Boomburst or Fakespeed

0 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Many Groudons take Dizzle ability before changing forms.

0 Atk Turboblaze Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon in Rain: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On top of that most Steel types are either Prankster or Flash Fire.


Palkia > Dialga > Zekrom > Reshiram.

I may even say Charizard X is stronger than Reshiram.
Its faster, more Attack, better physical bulk, at cost of SpA and SpD which are irrelevant due Latitwins.
Reshiram is viable as a sun sweeper with specs eruption and chlorophyll
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Nobody uses Reshiram for a good reason.


Fairy neutral means nothing if you die to Boomburst or Fakespeed

0 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Many Groudons take Dizzle ability before changing forms.

0 Atk Turboblaze Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon in Rain: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On top of that most Steel types are either Prankster or Flash Fire.


Palkia > Dialga > Zekrom > Reshiram.

I may even say Charizard X is stronger than Reshiram.
Its faster, more Attack, better physical bulk, at cost of SpA and SpD which are irrelevant due Latitwins.
All the people who use Drizzle pre-Primal evo are joking around or idiots--Desolate Land overrides Drizzle before the opposing mon attacks if you switched in PDon meaning V-Create would hit in harsh sun, not rain. Also how is Palkia the best? Imo of those listed, Dialga is the best. Its Tinted Lens Doom Desire set is really good.
 
Nobody uses Reshiram for a good reason.


Fairy neutral means nothing if you die to Boomburst or Fakespeed

0 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Many Groudons take Dizzle ability before changing forms.

0 Atk Turboblaze Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon in Rain: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On top of that most Steel types are either Prankster or Flash Fire.


Palkia > Dialga > Zekrom > Reshiram.

I may even say Charizard X is stronger than Reshiram.
Its faster, more Attack, better physical bulk, at cost of SpA and SpD which are irrelevant due Latitwins.


Reshiram has below-average sweeper speeds, so you're likely going to be running HP investment most likely over speed, unless you're using a Chloro sweeper Reshiram, as Hail suggested. Second, Diancie only checks since it cannot switch into Reshiram with standard sets. Contrary set numbers...

0 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 105-123 (43.5 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Reshiram Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 109-129 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO


And Sun sweeper...

252 SpA Reshiram Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie in Sun: 189-222 (78.4 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pixel Diancie wins if it can get in safely, but Fairy neutrality is more applicable to dealing with stuff like Xerneas, Fire/Fairy coverage, and things of that nature. And means if the Contrary set has a V-Create up or two, it can tank the Fakespeed or Boomburst and retaliate with a KO, unlike Lati@s.


Also, like I said...

252 SpA Reshiram Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon in Harsh Sunshine: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

Primaldon cannot safely switch in unless its running specially defensive.


As for Charizard X, Reshiram has 100/120/100/150/120/90 BST, X has 78/130/111/130/85/100. Zard X is worse everywhere except slightly better attack and slightly better speed. What advantage it has in defense is ruined by its lower HP.

252 Atk Arceus Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 159-187 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Arceus Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 144-171 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

These two calcs are purely for comparitive purposes and do not represent any actual sets.


Zard X is only better than Reshiram on pure physical sweeping sets, nothing else. And even then, Reshiram's bulk makes it arguably more viable there in terms of getting safety in exchange for a little power and speed. Last gen, the speed difference would have been enormous back when almost all of BH sat in the 90-100 base speed range, but it's far less impactful these days.
 
The difference is Reshiram's item slot is more flexible and it also has better defensive typing in being neutral to Fairy and Ice, making it harder for something like Diancie or Kyurem to revenge. Weak to Ground and Rock instead, but Groudon can't switch into Reshy, Primal Don's Desolate Lands sorta negates its resistance, and T-Tar scares the heck out of Lati@s anyway. On T-Tar's note, Lati@s also has a crippling weakness to Knock Off, due to both type and that the Latis really need their Soul Dews to be the monsters they are. There's also niche burn immunity too, which can matter on occasion.


You're probably better with a Lati@s in most situations, hence the higher rank, but some teams would benefit more from Reshiram.
I mean, I'm not calling for it to be unranked, but the occasions which you would use it are so rare as to be almost nonexistant, unlike Deo-S, Palkia, Groudon... the things it shares a rank with are just plain better.
There are probably some teams where it does better, but by and large you'll never experience those advantages and C rank is just too high for that kind of opportunity cost.
Reshiram is viable as a sun sweeper with specs eruption and chlorophyll
Specs Reshiram is worse than Char-Y. I mean, yes you have bulk, but any damage ruins eruption anyway and the greater speed+spa is far more useful. Also Char-Y has a slightly better tying as well, as it get a theoretical immunity to use to pivot in, a pixilate resistance, and losing to rocks regardless (both the hazards and the moves).
Reshiram has below-average sweeper speeds, so you're likely going to be running HP investment most likely over speed, unless you're using a Chloro sweeper Reshiram, as Hail suggested. Second, Diancie only checks since it cannot switch into Reshiram with standard sets. Contrary set numbers...

0 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 105-123 (43.5 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Reshiram Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 109-129 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO

And Sun sweeper...

252 SpA Reshiram Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie in Sun: 189-222 (78.4 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pixel Diancie wins if it can get in safely, but Fairy neutrality is more applicable to dealing with stuff like Xerneas, Fire/Fairy coverage, and things of that nature. And means if the Contrary set has a V-Create up or two, it can tank the Fakespeed or Boomburst and retaliate with a KO, unlike Lati@s.
Diancie only checks the lati twins, as well, so this isn't really that major. Also note that a single def boost allows Latias to beat Diancie as well:

4 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Fake Out vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 98-116 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not saying it isn't valid, but I think that this is a bit misleading.
Also, like I said...

252 SpA Reshiram Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon in Harsh Sunshine: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

Primaldon cannot safely switch in unless its running specially defensive.
Wouldn't this be a case of it not being able to switch in at all, seeing as a) Reshiram runs Draco meteor and b) contrary makes this a 2hko?
 
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HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Specs Reshiram is worse than Char-Y. I mean, yes you have bulk, but any damage ruins eruption anyway and the greater speed+spa is far more useful. Also Char-Y has a slightly better tying as well, as it get a theoretical immunity to use to pivot in, a pixilate resistance, and losing to rocks regardless (both the hazards and the moves).
I hadnt considered that before but reshiram still isnt 4x rocks weak which is a BIG deal imo. still you have a valid point but i would say theyre about the same in terms of viability as each has their plusses and minuses. (like 9 extra spa isnt a game changer and in sun 90 speed is still fast)
 

MAMP

MAMP!
The point of using Reshiram is its fantastic offensive typing, which in combination with its high BP STAB moves allows it to break a huge range of defensive cores - most notably, the Giratina + MAudino + Steel cores that have been so popular recently just fold to Reshiram. It's nearly impossible to switch into with its STAB moves alone, and it can run quite a few sets effectively; Contrary, Drought, Adaptability (hl used an adapt scarf set that works similarly to the scarf adapt mchomp set but non-scarf adapt is good too), imposter resistant set-up sweepers with draco plate, Chlorophyll etc. Reshiram of course struggles with its poor speed, stealth rock weakness, lame defensive typing, and stiff competition from mons like the Lati twins and MRay, but Reshiram is one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier and I feel this makes up for its shortcomings enough to warrant its position in C rank.

Also Reshiram is not worse than Zard-Y what the hell lmao. Zard Y loses half its HP switching into SR, which is a far bigger issue than you're making it out to be, Zard Y is significantly frailer, and most importantly doesn't have a secondary Dragon STAB to break Giratina with. Zard Y's Special Attack is barely better than Reshiram's, and while its higher speed and fairy resistance are neat they're not nearly enough to justify using it over Reshiram imo.
 
The point of using Reshiram is its fantastic offensive typing, which in combination with its high BP STAB moves allows it to break a huge range of defensive cores - most notably, the Giratina + MAudino + Steel cores that have been so popular recently just fold to Reshiram. It's nearly impossible to switch into with its STAB moves alone, and it can run quite a few sets effectively; Contrary, Drought, Adaptability (hl used an adapt scarf set that works similarly to the scarf adapt mchomp set but non-scarf adapt is good too), imposter resistant set-up sweepers with draco plate, Chlorophyll etc. Reshiram of course struggles with its poor speed, stealth rock weakness, lame defensive typing, and stiff competition from mons like the Lati twins and MRay, but Reshiram is one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier and I feel this makes up for its shortcomings enough to warrant its position in C rank.

Also Reshiram is not worse than Zard-Y what the hell lmao. Zard Y loses half its HP switching into SR, which is a far bigger issue than you're making it out to be, Zard Y is significantly frailer, and most importantly doesn't have a secondary Dragon STAB to break Giratina with. Zard Y's Special Attack is barely better than Reshiram's, and while its higher speed and fairy resistance are neat they're not nearly enough to justify using it over Reshiram imo.
In my opinion, why Zardy>Reshiram as a sun sweeper:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Charizard Y Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Sun: 223-263 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Charizard Y Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Sun: 351-414 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Charizard Y Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina in Sun: 298-351 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after 2 turns of Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Charizard Y Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia in Sun: 150-177 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
Most common fire resists are broken regardless of a dragon stab. I mean, obviously Reshiram is usually going to be better, but specifically as a sun sweeper?


On a different note, protean is now banned. The obvious affects are that Lati@s, MMX, and MMY are now less viable, but a bunch of other walls probably took a similar hit, while a few more mons have relevance. To be honest I'm not at all certin about the effects, but moving MMY out of S seems like a good start.
 
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Funny enough, I just suddenly remembered back about a year ago in the old thread I was defending Zard-Y's and Zard-X's existence on the viabilities when Reshiram was there. Interesting how times have changed.


On a different note, protean is now banned. The obvious affects are that Lati@s, MMX, and MMY are now less viable, but a bunch of other walls probably took a similar hit, while a few more mons have relevance. To be honest I'm not at all certin about the effects, but moving MMY out of S seems like a good start.

I'd argue its far too early to determine what changes are needed to be made. A major ban means tier instability as things settle, so Mewtwo might be worth dropping today, but tomorrow some new set might be found that could keep it S+. Or even if it drops for sure, we have no clear idea of how far yet. Is it A? B? C? Who knows? Give the tier a little bit of time to sort itself out since its possible that trying to keep up with it all would require dozens of changes in the short term. If anything needs to be added to the tier list, it'd be a note about the ban and how the viabilities may not be accurate for a bit as things settle back down. But I don't feel such a thing is urgent.
 
First update to the viability rankings! I made the following changes that were proposed by Quantum Tesseract:

Gengar up to B- (was C+)
Cresselia down to C (was C+)
Palkia up to C+ (was C)
Blaziken to B- (was C+)


I was not fully convinced by his Heatran, Mega Audino, Pikachu, or Reshiram nominations. I would also like to hear more on the Chansey to S+ debate. Finally, I dropped Deoxys-A from C+ to C because of the Protean ban, but have not made any other changes in that regard.

What do you guys think?
 
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AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Cresselia down to C (was C+)
!!!!!!
Wanted to post further into no-Protean but I really disagree with this.

Thoughout all of Phase 2 of reqs, I included Cresselia on my team. Yes, it is still very early in the no-Protean era, but from the experiences I've had, Cresselia has become MUCH more useful. I've been using it specifically as an Unaware. Since Protean is now gone, set-up sweepers have more of a chance to shine, meaning Unaware is now more useful than getting 2HKO'd by a Protean. Cresselia can now switch in fearlessly on the majority of special attackers due to only being weak to three types, all of which are fairly uncommon other than Spooky Judgment.

Disclaimer: not all calcs are sets I have experience with. Simply using them as offensive benchmarks.

252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 177-209 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Adamant Orb Dialga Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 201-237 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO

Still does get 2HKO'd by Aerilate Boomburst, but off the top of my head, the only walls that don't are resists, Chansey, and Specially Defensive Giratina (which still gets 2HKO'd by fully invested Modest).


That's not the end of it, though! If specially defensive isn't your style, Knock Off isn't a threat to physically defensive, leaving other neutral hits as a non-threat too. Yes, it may not be able to switch in freely WITH an item. However, after a first Knock Off and healing, or even simply not carrying an item, Cress can do as it wants.

252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 240-284 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's essentially a 195 BP attack coming off of 164 Attack and STAB.

252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 162-192 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even more than that, due to its lack of weaknesses, it performs as an above average Fur Coat user.

252 Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 180-213 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

where's your offense now


So yes, Giratina may outshine it in multiple ways, including pure bulk. However, Cresselia's typing, although not offering too many resistances, does not leave it weak to Moonblast or Ice Beam, commonly run on attackers for Giratina. It also serves as a much better Unaware wall that Giratina simply due to its neutrality to Draco Meteor, commonly found on Contrary Pokemon. It still has plenty of bulk to perform well.

With Protean, it was a different story, and definitely deserved to drop in viability. However, without it, I firmly believe that Cresselia fits the description of B Rank much more than C Rank. It no longer has many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective or requires significant support to be effective. However, it does in fact have flaws and does in fact require supports, fitting the role of B Rank quite well.

As my own opinion, I believe Cresselia should be B, but isn't simply due to underusage. I'm fine with this! B- is understandable, maybe even C+ (but that's a long shot). C, on the other hand, is not, especially due to the recent metagame shifts.

tl;dr start using cress more k thanks, even if it stays low in viability we'll show them


For other topics:
I feel Chansey should stay in S. Don't believe that it's centralizing enough; probably as a result of my playstyle. I could probably be convinced either way.

No real opinions on other mons mentioned, will give a bit more thought though. Also proposing Slaking down to B-, mostly due to competition from Regigigas. Will talk more about it later.
 
S+ is best of the meta, i think every metagame should have 1.

I remember a very old topic from Eric the Espeon about which poke can beat all in Gen 4. (cant find link)
In Balanced Hackmons its Chansey. For me Chansey stands above Primals.


You were the only one with Cress, M-Latias is a better Unaware, as it can hurt those Moody MMY.
I have used Unaware M-Latias for months pre Protean ban, and it does not die in 2 Unstabbed Draco Meteor either;
252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Draco Meteor vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Latias: 152-180 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

I mean i have Zekrom on my main team atm and its C-. Shall it be C now ?
The only set it has is No Guard which MMY can do aswell.
 
S+ is best of the meta, i think every metagame should have 1.

I remember a very old topic from Eric the Espeon about which poke can beat all in Gen 4. (cant find link)
In Balanced Hackmons its Chansey. For me Chansey stands above Primals.


You were the only one with Cress, M-Latias is a better Unaware, as it can hurt those Moody MMY.
I have used Unaware M-Latias for months pre Protean ban, and it does not die in 2 Unstabbed Draco Meteor either;
252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Draco Meteor vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Latias: 152-180 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

I mean i have Zekrom on my main team atm and its C-. Shall it be C now ?
The only set it has is No Guard which MMY can do aswell.
S+ is not the best of the metagame. It's something so good the entire metagame revolves around it, every team can use it, is the best mon in the metagame, and is extremely splashable. Chansey fits 1, maybe 2 of these- its in no way that centralizing.

?

It isn't, necessarily. I dislike cress and think awailofatail is overhyping it (moody isn't as good as people make it out to be, and cress just isn't bulky enough for its bad typing to be forgivable), but it's definitally a better unaware than M-Latias.

?
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
It isn't, necessarily. I dislike cress and think awailofatail is overhyping it (moody isn't as good as people make it out to be, and cress just isn't bulky enough for its bad typing to be forgivable), but it's definitally a better unaware than M-Latias.
Oh, I'm overhyping it. Going from C to B is an absolute ridiculous idea; it won't happen. However, I do not think it belongs in C Rank for the reasons in my post. That's why I mentioned that I'd be fine with either C+ or B-, but I really disagree with C.
Also yeah I agree that Moody isn't quite as good as people make it out to be; that's why I didn't mention it lol. I'll still keep using Cress so whatever consensus we come to I'm fine with. I just don't want to have that "bad typing m-audino" bc it's not just that ;-;
 
I disagree Cresselia being better Unaware than M-Latias. Unaware is M-Latias best ability and its A+.

A few days ago i had a lucky win with my Moody MMY against Unaware Dragon Pulse M-Latias.
Even if Cresselia would be a better one, there are others; M-Audino, Registeel, Giratina, Lugia and Ho-oh.

Every Unaware i listed has atleast a usable 2nd set.
Cress 2nd sets are Baton Pass gimnicks;

credits to my opponents strategy;
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-376996120
skip from turn 10 to 40. 1-3 turns with Cress.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
I disagree Cresselia being better Unaware than M-Latias. Unaware is M-Latias best ability and its A+.
Yeah, M-Latias is higher than Cresselia. Not really sure what that has to do with Cresselia's performance. It's not like M-Latias is Cresselia, just better; there's typing to take into account. My team was weak to Ice; to prevent that, I didn't want to use Latias-Mega or Lugia. It's just what fit my team.
I do get that in more cases than not, Cresselia might not be the best choice. But that's okay! That does not mean it performs any less, just that it isn't what your team needs. While I do understand that Latias-Mega is quite good, some teams find that the lack of weaknesses is better than the resistances provided.

Every Unaware i listed has atleast a usable 2nd set.
Cress 2nd sets are Baton Pass gimnicks;

credits to my opponents strategy;
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-376996120
skip from turn 10 to 40. 1-3 turns with Cress.
Not sure what this is trying to say, though. After all, I mentioned a Fur Coat set in my other post. Even if I didn't, that's no reason to assume that a single Cresselia's set is its only other option. I've actually played against that person/team as well, and I can assure you that set would be just as gimmicky (and probably better used) on other Pokemon, too. Therefore, I see no need to associate Cresselia's viability ranking with that single set.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
That doesn't mean that it's S+ rank at all, though. These aren't impact ratings, they are viability rankings. The point of them is to asses how effective a pokemon is at fulfilling roles for its team. If its overprepared for and every team counters it, it isn't useful and so shouldn't even be ranked. I mean, obviously chansey is far from useless, but the point here is that people preparing for something decreases its viability rather than increasing it.
S+ is not the best of the metagame. It's something so good the entire metagame revolves around it, every team can use it, is the best mon in the metagame, and is extremely splashable. Chansey fits 1, maybe 2 of these- its in no way that centralizing.
So... which one is it?
 
Oh, I'm overhyping it. Going from C to B is an absolute ridiculous idea; it won't happen. However, I do not think it belongs in C Rank for the reasons in my post. That's why I mentioned that I'd be fine with either C+ or B-, but I really disagree with C.
Also yeah I agree that Moody isn't quite as good as people make it out to be; that's why I didn't mention it lol. I'll still keep using Cress so whatever consensus we come to I'm fine with. I just don't want to have that "bad typing m-audino" bc it's not just that ;-;
Why wouldn't it belong in the C-Ranks? Since this is BH, the only things that matter are typing and stats. Psyxhic, further, is a mediocre type. With the exception of resisting psychic moves, psychic is a bad ghost defensively. Since psychic is only really relevant with The Latis (who win regardless) and MMY (who also wins unless moody), that's not super major. Thus the only real reason to use it over Giratina is stored power resist and not weak to fairy/ice/dragon. That being said, this is a fairly major concern, so I won't dismiss it, but on a purely mathematical level psychic isn't that great.
Simply speaking, it's best comparison is to Maudino because of their similar stationed and goals. Cresselia has the following (relevant) advantages- not weak to poison, resisting fighting, resisting psychic, and slightly better bulk. Of these, the first is irrelevant due to the fact that the only mon to really use poison is MGar, who carries ghost moves. Resisting fighting doesn't matter VS MMX, as Unaware Maudino walls fighting coverage MMX, and Mblaze kos both. The bulk, meanwhile, is a tradeoff for a crippling Koff weakness (no PH), no immunities to exploit, and overall fewer viable sets. Obviously, this just means it should be ranked below, but Maudino is so stupidly splashable that you are very rarely going to want Cress over is, and most of the time you will you'd want Giratina instead, and that's not even getting into lati@s. The opportunity cost is very high, far above that of B- rank mons like Xerneas or Regirock. I could maybe see it returning to C+, but anything higher is ridiculous.
I disagree Cresselia being better Unaware than M-Latias. Unaware is M-Latias best ability and its A+.

A few days ago i had a lucky win with my Moody MMY against Unaware Dragon Pulse M-Latias.
Even if Cresselia would be a better one, there are others; M-Audino, Registeel, Giratina, Lugia and Ho-oh.

Every Unaware i listed has atleast a usable 2nd set.
Cress 2nd sets are Baton Pass gimnicks;

credits to my opponents strategy;
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-376996120
skip from turn 10 to 40. 1-3 turns with Cress.
Unaware is not Latias' best ability.

You were fighting a bad player, so I'm not sure how it is relevant. dragon pulse, for instance, is totally outclassed by special rend or coverage.
Yeah, M-Latias is higher than Cresselia. Not really sure what that has to do with Cresselia's performance. It's not like M-Latias is Cresselia, just better; there's typing to take into account. My team was weak to Ice; to prevent that, I didn't want to use Latias-Mega or Lugia. It's just what fit my team.
I do get that in more cases than not, Cresselia might not be the best choice. But that's okay! That does not mean it performs any less, just that it isn't what your team needs. While I do understand that Latias-Mega is quite good, some teams find that the lack of weaknesses is better than the resistances provided.


Not sure what this is trying to say, though. After all, I mentioned a Fur Coat set in my other post. Even if I didn't, that's no reason to assume that a single Cresselia's set is its only other option. I've actually played against that person/team as well, and I can assure you that set would be just as gimmicky (and probably better used) on other Pokemon, too. Therefore, I see no need to associate Cresselia's viability ranking with that single set.
What? That has everything to do with how cresselia should be ranked. If it's never the best solution, it shouldn't even be ranked. It's why blissey, despite being effective, isn't ranked- any circumstance under which you'd want to use blissey, chansey is completely or mostly better.
So... which one is it?
Both. People preparing for something decreases its viability, but it has to be good enough for people to have to prepare for it to be ranked. Basically, S+ is saying- "you have to prepare for it, and even when you do its consistently the most effective (or close to it) choice the opponent can make to face you. Something like PDon in ubers, the only S+ rank in official metagames- it's on 70% of teams, used everywhere from stall to offense, can be customized to beat nearly any given threat, and many matches are decided by the PDon set you carry- while they are heavily prepared for it with their own checks.
Basically, it has to centralize the metagames around beating it and still be nearly impossible to consistently handle safely.
 
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