BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[IronedSandwich]

a few suggestions:

Pikachu: D -> C. C is already a meme tier, Pikachu can do some cool stuff, see Quantum Tesseract.

Deoxys-S: C -> B-: it's a very good suicide lead, it might be predictable but it's hard to exploit since it can get past Magic Bounce. Its viability might be limited by its frail defenses but I have trouble seeing how it's less useful than Celesteela or Ferrothorn or Garchomp-Mega.

Solgaleo: A -> B+: very good stats for a pivot but Steel/Psychic is leaves you weak to Ground, Fire, Dark and Ghost, all of which are types you see a lot of in BH with Thousand Arrows, Earth Power, Precipice Blades, V-Create, Blue Flare, Knock Off, Spectral Thief, Spooky Judgment, Earth Judgment and Moongeist Beam.

Pheromosa and Chansey seems a bit low too.

Gallade-Mega and Shuckle could probably be blacklisted. Whatever Gallade can do MMX can do better, and Shuckle's 20/230/230 defenses make it the perfect pokemon to imposter without actually having great defenses. I've seen both a few times.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I don't agree with Deoxys-S.
It maybe was a good suicide lead before the removal of the EV limit, but nowadays, with bulky teams dominating, you will find yourself more than often with simply one pokemon down, after your Deoxys-S got killed and its hazards got removed. Bulky hazard setters which are able to set them repeatedly throughout the battle, like Giratina, Audino, Zygod... are much better.

 

[Champion Leon]

a few suggestions:

Pikachu: D -> C. C is already a meme tier, Pikachu can do some cool stuff, see Quantum Tesseract.

Deoxys-S: C -> B-: it's a very good suicide lead, it might be predictable but it's hard to exploit since it can get past Magic Bounce. Its viability might be limited by its frail defenses but I have trouble seeing how it's less useful than Celesteela or Ferrothorn or Garchomp-Mega.

Solgaleo: A -> B+: very good stats for a pivot but Steel/Psychic is leaves you weak to Ground, Fire, Dark and Ghost, all of which are types you see a lot of in BH with Thousand Arrows, Earth Power, Precipice Blades, V-Create, Blue Flare, Knock Off, Spectral Thief, Spooky Judgment, Earth Judgment and Moongeist Beam.

Pheromosa and Chansey seems a bit low too.

Gallade-Mega and Shuckle could probably be blacklisted. Whatever Gallade can do MMX can do better, and Shuckle's 20/230/230 defenses make it the perfect pokemon to imposter without actually having great defenses. I've seen both a few times.

I actually like using Red Card on Deoxys-S, especially as a lead since the opponent won't have set up yet, and so that any -ate Fake/Speeders or Triagers will be forced out. It helps more than Focus Sash if you use it early in the match, especially since you have will survive most lead attacks anyways.

Typically Mold Breaker with Stealth Rocks, Nuzzle, Taunt, and Knock Off work well because the goal of Deoxys-S is to disarm in as many ways as possible from status to removal of item to Taunt so they cannot use Defog. Red Card also works to build SR damage since first turn you will likely have set up hazards. If they Rapid Spin, that activates Red Card allowing you to outspeed most foes that switch in, and set up again. If they switch in the Rapid Spinner, you can switch to a ghost. Deoyxs can also Nuzzle when the foe Taunts or has Safety Goggles. Knock off works well against Imposter as well.

I would say Leave it in C. It's useful, but not the very best option out of all Hazard users, although it probably is the best lead Hazard Pokémon due to a speedy Taunt and Stealth Rocks.

 

[Rumors]

a few suggestions:

Pikachu: D -> C. C is already a meme tier, Pikachu can do some cool stuff, see Quantum Tesseract.

Deoxys-S: C -> B-: it's a very good suicide lead, it might be predictable but it's hard to exploit since it can get past Magic Bounce. Its viability might be limited by its frail defenses but I have trouble seeing how it's less useful than Celesteela or Ferrothorn or Garchomp-Mega.

Solgaleo: A -> B+: very good stats for a pivot but Steel/Psychic is leaves you weak to Ground, Fire, Dark and Ghost, all of which are types you see a lot of in BH with Thousand Arrows, Earth Power, Precipice Blades, V-Create, Blue Flare, Knock Off, Spectral Thief, Spooky Judgment, Earth Judgment and Moongeist Beam.

Pheromosa and Chansey seems a bit low too.

Gallade-Mega and Shuckle could probably be blacklisted. Whatever Gallade can do MMX can do better, and Shuckle's 20/230/230 defenses make it the perfect pokemon to imposter without actually having great defenses. I've seen both a few times.

Mostly disagree on these. Semako already covered Deo-S.

Pikachu should stay no higher than D-rank since it only does literally one clearly telegraphed thing in the meta and must win a speed tie to pull it off. QT does some neat things with Pikachu, but I've also seen a number of replays from him where both Pikachu lose the speed tie and it costs him the game. Imposter Chansey and even other, less viable Imposters outclass it in nearly every way except winning a speed tie on an unproofed offensive Pokemon. Plus post-EV limit makes it harder for Pikachu to score those OHKOes while its still frail enough to get bopped in return.

Solgaleo is fine where it is. Sure, it has a lot of weaknesses, but the fact its everywhere and it pairs extremely well with a lot of other common Pokemon, such as Audino, Zygarde, and Yveltal, keeps it very easy to run despite the common weaknesses. Plus I'm not sure having weaknesses is grounds enough to kick something down a notch as currently the entire S-rank has exploitable and/or common weaknesses except Kyogre and Chansey.

No comment on Pheromosa, Gallade, or Shuckle.

S-rank is too low for Chansey?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Mostly disagree on these. Semako already covered Deo-S.

Pikachu should stay no higher than D-rank since it only does literally one clearly telegraphed thing in the meta and must win a speed tie to pull it off. QT does some neat things with Pikachu, but I've also seen a number of replays from him where both Pikachu lose the speed tie and it costs him the game. Imposter Chansey and even other, less viable Imposters outclass it in nearly every way except winning a speed tie on an unproofed offensive Pokemon. Plus post-EV limit makes it harder for Pikachu to score those OHKOes while its still frail enough to get bopped in return.

The point on speed ties is accurate, paralysis spam or no, but you seem to be making a (common) mistake when judging Pikachu's power. There are few viable mons that aren't OHKOed by their own attacks after light ball, and many cannot OHKO themselves even with reduced HP

examples

• 252 SpA Light ball Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 412-486 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO, 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP Base 35 / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 206-244 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 Atk Light Ball Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 414-488 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO, 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 Base 35 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 208-246 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Note: V-Create has the exact same calc, but Pikachu needs to win at least one of the speed ties; Most other (rarer) MMX have similar calcs but may not be quite as advantageous.
• 252 Atk Light Ball Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (31% w/o), 252 Atk Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 base 35 HP/ 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 135-160 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
• 252 Atk Light Ball Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 422-500 (104.7 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 Base 35 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 234-276 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  
• 252 SpA Light Ball Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Kyurem-Black: 487-574 (107.2 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252 SpA Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 Base 35 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black: 220-259 (80.2 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  
• Primal Kyogre: Needs to be either leech seed or Pikachu winning ties with freeze dry.
• Regigigas: Must be at +2 or chipped ~10%

While stuff like MGar is ofc immune and MRay can force ties, Pikachu is also not helpless versus the balance mons that fill those teams. Solgaleo, Dialga, Regenvest Ogre, Xerneas, any Uturn MGyara, Core Enforcer Tina/Zygarde, Scald MBro, and primsea Celest all have major issues with Pikachu, to the point that it even has (non switchbait/pp stall) uses against stall teams. It's entirely reasonable to say it's not worthy of any rank above D, but it's not actually reliant on speed ties or paralysis to function in most days.

 

[Lcass4919]

my question, as a pikachu user myself, is if its worth using over lucky punch chansey, which 50% of the time can do pikachus job, without fearing speed ties due to its over 4x higher bulk, and still allows chansey to copy walls to utilize their utilities as well. 50% is usually enough to KO most walls designed to stop imposter (mega ray 2hkos registeel with boomburst if getting 2 crits, which isnt as rare as you think) of course its not guarenteed, but id take the bulk+wall breaking potential vs guarenteed wallbreaking but reliance on luck. the issue isnt that pika is bad, its that its niche isnt even much of a niche, as both rely on coin flips, but chansey at least has a safe back-bone. not to mention pikachu REALLY appreciates para support to do its job better, which considering burn and sleep are so huge in BH, really forces you to build around pikachu way more then you need too. of course, im not saying pikachu is a "meme" as i said, i ran imposter pikachu+imposter chansey with para support, and it truely amazed me how much work it could put in...but im still opposing its rise. after all, its heavily reliant on team support to do its job, otherwise its just a coinflip. and saying a mon is good 50% of the time isn't enough for me to see it rise. dont forget, if pika loses that speed tie, it dies most of the time. meanwhile if you win the speed tie, its not guarenteed you will KO the opposing mon if its at full hp. its a coinflip that isnt even entirely in your favor. thats why i think D rank is perfect for it. its usable, but requires you to rely on "Something else" to get its job done, weather it be coin flips, the opposing team structure, or your team itself.

 

[motherlove]

my question, as a pikachu user myself, is if its worth using over lucky punch chansey, which 50% of the time can do pikachus job, without fearing speed ties due to its over 4x higher bulk, and still allows chansey to copy walls to utilize their utilities as well. 50% is usually enough to KO most walls designed to stop imposter (mega ray 2hkos registeel with boomburst if getting 2 crits, which isnt as rare as you think) of course its not guarenteed, but id take the bulk+wall breaking potential vs guarenteed wallbreaking but reliance on luck. the issue isnt that pika is bad, its that its niche isnt even much of a niche, as both rely on coin flips, but chansey at least has a safe back-bone. not to mention pikachu REALLY appreciates para support to do its job better, which considering burn and sleep are so huge in BH, really forces you to build around pikachu way more then you need too. of course, im not saying pikachu is a "meme" as i said, i ran imposter pikachu+imposter chansey with para support, and it truely amazed me how much work it could put in...but im still opposing its rise. after all, its heavily reliant on team support to do its job, otherwise its just a coinflip. and saying a mon is good 50% of the time isn't enough for me to see it rise. dont forget, if pika loses that speed tie, it dies most of the time. meanwhile if you win the speed tie, its not guarenteed you will KO the opposing mon if its at full hp. its a coinflip that isnt even entirely in your favor. thats why i think D rank is perfect for it. its usable, but requires you to rely on "Something else" to get its job done, weather it be coin flips, the opposing team structure, or your team itself.

I have a hard time believing any of what you said considering QT's post above directly contradicts most of it.

 

[Lcass4919]

I have a hard time believing any of what you said considering QT's post above directly contradicts most of it.

i mean, the only point disproven is that pikachu can tank a hit or two before dying vs certain mons. doesnt change the fact that chansey still does its job safer, while being able to actually switch into these threats. imposter isnt that great if you lose a mon each time just to send it in. if anything, you just saw my one point and just treated it as "one point proven slightly wrong=entire argument voided" let me ask if im wrong, why isnt pikachu S ranked like chansey...oh wait thats right, its frail as fuck. it cant switch into the shit it wants to beat. so your forced to either lose a mon, or futily switch into a wall, and BEG they switch into a mon that allows pikachu to do work. so ill ask again, how is my point wrong, when the main argument i made for it not rising was "it relys on team support to do its job, and even then its a coinflip" when both my points still hold ground. enless you and QT have magically found a way to automatically switch pikachu into sweepers, then by all means explain to me. with this in mind, both my points of "Requiring team support, and relying on 50/50's" are completely valid points, and your just nitpicking details.

how is ANY of my argument contradicted by calcs showing that pikachu can ohko mons, while others fail to ohko back, lets not forget that in order for pika to attack these mons, your opponent has to be stupid enough to leave them in in the first place when your forced into your wall. LP chansey can switch STRAIGHT into these pokemon. so ill ask again, is pikachus job worth using over LP chansey, because it can do the same job reliably, and doesn't rely on the 50/50's pikachu brings. stop nitpicking, and actually think and look at the posts contents. my point had nothing to do with those calcs. every mon his calc posted, requires you to run a wall to deal with. so that means in order for pika to actually do its damn job, you need to go into a wall anyways. which means pikachu already is at a downfall, because whats the point if your just going to have to switch into your wall to tank the hit anyways?

pardon my hostility.and i dont like pulling the "ive been here longer card" but really. ive used imposter pikachu successfully way before you guys. so i think i know a BIT about what i'm talking about when i say things.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

my question, as a pikachu user myself, is if its worth using over lucky punch chansey, which 50% of the time can do pikachus job, without fearing speed ties due to its over 4x higher bulk, and still allows chansey to copy walls to utilize their utilities as well. 50% is usually enough to KO most walls designed to stop imposter (mega ray 2hkos registeel with boomburst if getting 2 crits, which isnt as rare as you think) of course its not guarenteed, but id take the bulk+wall breaking potential vs guarenteed wallbreaking but reliance on luck. the issue isnt that pika is bad, its that its niche isnt even much of a niche, as both rely on coin flips, but chansey at least has a safe back-bone. not to mention pikachu REALLY appreciates para support to do its job better, which considering burn and sleep are so huge in BH, really forces you to build around pikachu way more then you need too. of course, im not saying pikachu is a "meme" as i said, i ran imposter pikachu+imposter chansey with para support, and it truely amazed me how much work it could put in...but im still opposing its rise. after all, its heavily reliant on team support to do its job, otherwise its just a coinflip. and saying a mon is good 50% of the time isn't enough for me to see it rise. dont forget, if pika loses that speed tie, it dies most of the time. meanwhile if you win the speed tie, its not guarenteed you will KO the opposing mon if its at full hp. its a coinflip that isnt even entirely in your favor. thats why i think D rank is perfect for it. its usable, but requires you to rely on "Something else" to get its job done, weather it be coin flips, the opposing team structure, or your team itself.

First off, IDk why you bring up Lucky Punch imposter when it's way more RNG reliant and worse at the job. There are a ton of reasons why Pikachu is better than lucky punch at this, which is mostly exemplified by this:
252 SpA Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel on a critical hit: 141-167 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Light Ball Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 189-222 (51.9 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pikachu, unlike chansey, can actually do it's job when it gets RNG; ie, destroying any imposterproofing that doesnt use immunties. Chansey can't, so in most cases there just isnt any reason to use Lucky Punch chansey; the only relevant example is QD ogre.

i mean, the only point disproven is that pikachu can tank a hit or two before dying vs certain mons. doesnt change the fact that chansey still does its job safer, while being able to actually switch into these threats. imposter isnt that great if you lose a mon each time just to send it in. if anything, you just saw my one point and just treated it as "one point proven slightly wrong=entire argument voided" let me ask if im wrong, why isnt pikachu S ranked like chansey...oh wait thats right, its frail as fuck. it cant switch into the shit it wants to beat. so your forced to either lose a mon, or futily switch into a wall, and BEG they switch into a mon that allows pikachu to do work. so ill ask again, how is my point wrong, when the main argument i made for it not rising was "it relys on team support to do its job, and even then its a coinflip" when both my points still hold ground. enless you and QT have magically found a way to automatically switch pikachu into sweepers, then by all means explain to me. with this in mind, both my points of "Requiring team support, and relying on 50/50's" are completely valid points, and your just nitpicking details.

how is ANY of my argument contradicted by calcs showing that pikachu can ohko mons, while others fail to ohko back, lets not forget that in order for pika to attack these mons, your opponent has to be stupid enough to leave them in in the first place when your forced into your wall. LP chansey can switch STRAIGHT into these pokemon. so ill ask again, is pikachus job worth using over LP chansey, because it can do the same job reliably, and doesn't rely on the 50/50's pikachu brings. stop nitpicking, and actually think and look at the posts contents. my point had nothing to do with those calcs. every mon his calc posted, requires you to run a wall to deal with. so that means in order for pika to actually do its damn job, you need to go into a wall anyways. which means pikachu already is at a downfall, because whats the point if your just going to have to switch into your wall to tank the hit anyways?

pardon my hostility.and i dont like pulling the "ive been here longer card" but really. ive used imposter pikachu successfully way before you guys. so i think i know a BIT about what i'm talking about when i say things.

Again, you seem to be under the impression that chansey can do the job when it get lucky. It can't. Furthermore, needing to win one speed tie vs some pokemon it wants to imposter puts way less in the hands of RNG than banking on lucky punch critting 3-4 times in a row. It doesn't really matter if you cant hard switch in Pikachu, because even if they KO an important part of the team you sacked to bring Pikachu in, you're doing a lot more back to them.

They aren't stupid to leave it in - for most offensive pokemon, Pikachu imposter has no switchins - zero, zilch, nada. The whole point of using pikachu is to win using it offensively, not wall, so I'm not really sure why you're asking what the point of having an imposter that can't switch in is.

And seriously? If we're bringing join dates of PS into this (which we really really shouldn't), I predate you by 2 months. It's just not an argument, otherwise someone like Lordmagecar is more of an authority than Highlighter.

 

[cityscapes]

ok to be honest i think both of you are being very immature. each person has valid points but each one of you are refusing to acknowledge that. please don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

on pikachu: first of all let me say that lucky punch chansey is usually unable to break through "imposter-proof" combos such as diancie+steel, because even if it can consistently crit, the mon needs to do at least 33% in the first place to 2hko, and as all of you know, an imposter-proof mon that takes 33% or more isn't very reliable. meanwhile attacks that do 25-33% (which are much more common) are right up pikachu's alley.

however pikachu doesn't seem to have much else going for it, because it needs to win a speed tie to break through most fat boosters (such as ph regi) as well as substantial amounts of boosts beforehand.

if anyone would like to disagree with this post, please actually post a replay because for all this heated discussion no one has posted any.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

ok to be honest i think both of you are being very immature. each person has valid points but each one of you are refusing to acknowledge that. please don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

on pikachu: first of all let me say that lucky punch chansey is usually unable to break through "imposter-proof" combos such as diancie+steel, because even if it can consistently crit, the mon needs to do at least 33% in the first place to 2hko, and as all of you know, an imposter-proof mon that takes 33% or more isn't very reliable. meanwhile attacks that do 25-33% (which are much more common) are right up pikachu's alley.

however pikachu doesn't seem to have much else going for it, because it needs to win a speed tie to break through most fat boosters (such as ph regi) as well as substantial amounts of boosts beforehand.

if anyone would like to disagree with this post, please actually post a replay because for all this heated discussion no one has posted any.

I'm really not sure how stuff like join date and false damage claims is a valid claim, but ok?

The replays bit is pretty fair. Allow me to rectify that:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-573091350
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-570749343
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-570713869
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-569372135
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-569359130
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-567425611
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-567420350
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-566988393

 

[Rumors]

Quantum Tesseract I was referring more for Pikachu's ability to break through defensive switch-ins the opponent may send in, sorry for not being clear. Some stuff, like Mega-Ray, can break Registeel when Pikachued still, but this isn't always the case for every sweeper against their Imposter-checks. And Aerilate Boomburst Ray is a big outlier, there's not a lot that has access to that amount of sheer power without setting up. But, to take one of the other top-tier examples...

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 259-306 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even Fur Coat. (+2 to simulate Light Ball.) "But wouldn't Primal Pikachu just use an Ice move?" No, you wouldn't give Groudon an Ice move if you're Imposter-proofing it with Zygarde. The Ground attack would hurt, but surely that's been accounted for on the Zygarde set.

And then most other sweepers don't have such power. For example, Mewtwo-Y has a terrifying Special Attack, but Psystrike is only BP 100, not 140 + -ate boost or 180. Or Yveltal over there with only a BP 131 (Special) Attack and tends to not run moves that are above BP 90, Power Trip aside. (And if its set-up and running Power Trip, it doesn't really matter if you're using Chansey, Pikachu, or Magikarp as your Imposter to OHKO stuff.)

Now, I'm not denying that Pikachu doesn't have terrifying power when you make the stars align. It does, enough that it deserves to be rated rather than casted down to the pile of memes. Just that you can't just get in on a sweeper and trivially Light Ball your way through a team anymore unless your opponent is stupid or you've given Pikachu more than enough support to function. And considering it needs speed control and/or paralysis support, slow pivot, safe switch to escape stuff it can't beat or that'll remove its item, stuff to beat Scarf and Sash sets, a team that can deal with stall teams, and perhaps hazards to nail some OHKOs that would otherwise just survive cripple or OHKO back, it needs a lot of support.


...also, to nitpick, but unless something's changed and its just not showing up in my games, Kyu-B doesn't run Boomburst nor a SpD lowering nature as standard. Boomburst is viable, but its not standard. Pikachu can't OHKO unless Kyu-B has Sunsteel Strike, but Kyu-B can potentially OHKO back too if it does. It's more 50/50ish if Kyu-B has King's Shield or isn't running Fake Out for some reason.



Also also, somewhat more related, but I'm not sure if posting numbers of BIG DAMAGE CALCULATIONS! should be used to justify rank changes/current rank position. I mean... there's a lot of outclassed crap that can OHKO/2HKO a lot of stuff under the right conditions. I mean, I'm sure I could run like, some Band Mega-Lucario set or something and net a bunch of OHKOs/2HKOs with the right coverage, but I wouldn't think to rate Lucario.

 

[Champion Leon]

Just use Tailwind if you need to break the Speedtie... For Pikachu to win first against the foe it is Impostering.

Have a safe pivot use either Spore, Destiny Bond, Explosion, Sub+Baton Pass for a safe switch?
Or if low on moves, have Tail Wind on a fast or priority user, holding an Eject Button?

Or Nuzzle spam?

There are workarounds for everything.

 

[Rumors]

The point isn't that there aren't work arounds, the point is you need several work arounds on your team for Pikachu to function. You'll notice if you go up in ranks, the Pokemon need less and less team support. Despite how potent Pikachu can be if played correctly, it needs a lot of support to be able to get in safely, keep its Light Ball, and avoid 50/50 situations every time it gets in. Its performance is very inconsistent at best when it doesn't have any support.

 

[Champion Leon]

The point isn't that there aren't work arounds, the point is you need several work arounds on your team for Pikachu to function. You'll notice if you go up in ranks, the Pokemon need less and less team support. Despite how potent Pikachu can be if played correctly, it needs a lot of support to be able to get in safely, keep its Light Ball, and avoid 50/50 situations every time it gets in. Its performance is very inconsistent at best when it doesn't have any support.

I agree, I was just trying to justify QT's reasoning for defending its use realistically in a match over Lucky Punch Chansey. (The disagreement grew with intensity from both sides, so I simply offered an option for making it work).

Sub blocks Trick/Knock Off, Tailwind prevents a tie, Eject Button removes the need for a pivot move if hit by a contact move, etc.

Maybe Tailwind, Thousand Arrows, Substitute/Spore, Baton Pass/Shore Up Zygarde @ Leftovers to keep Pikachu safe.

Spore for forcing a switch, (which makes it random) otherwise sub+pass so you at least know what foe your Pika will evolve into if they keep the same Pokémon out.

**Also, this is Gen 7, Critical Hits have only been doing 50% boosts since Gen 6... so when it was mentioned that Chansey does Pikachu's job 50% of the time, it actually only has a 50% chance of doing 50% more damage which is an average of a 25% boost in power for all turns of attack. It would be better off with Life Orb at that point.

 

[IronedSandwich]

It would be better off with Life Orb at that point.

Only if you like losing 10% of your advantage per turn

 

[Champion Leon]

Only if you like losing 10% of your advantage per turn

Beats losing more HP if you win the speed tie but still have that 50% chance of not scoring a critical hit and not KOing the foe, the same one you would have KOed with Life Orb.

Would you rather take 10% and KO the foe, sparring you damage when they go second, or risk it not critical hitting, and taking all the damage your opponent deals because they survived the attack?

With Lucky Punch, you have a 50% chance to go first, a 50% chance to score a critical hit to do 50% more damage.

With Life Orb, you have a 50% chance to go first, and a 100% chance to score 30% more damage.

Some people use Choice Scarf for this reason to always go first, but regret not KOing without a boosting item for offense or defense to last longer since the foe will have an easier time surviving, especially after the max EVs clause.

 

[SomeIrish]

Okay let's just stop arguing about pikachu and chansey, this thread isn't about them.

On another note, I'd like to see some talk about normalize gengar since priority which was one of the main ways of dealing with it last gen has become far less relevant. Does multi attack look viable enough to used in more competitive play or is it too weak to be worth sacrificing an item for?

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Okay let's just stop arguing about pikachu and chansey, this thread isn't about them.

On another note, I'd like to see some talk about normalize gengar since priority which was one of the main ways of dealing with it last gen has become far less relevant. Does multi attack look viable enough to used in more competitive play or is it too weak to be worth sacrificing an item for?

Normalize Gengar is significantly easier to deal with this generation. Yes, Multi-Attack is one of the ways to deal with it, but it is usually not a viable decision due to the strategy itself requiring memory item and the move's awful base power.

Revelation Dance is the move that can deal with Normalize Gengar without forcing the user to get Z-crystals, Plate / Memory or anything. The likes of Primal Kyogre and Yveltal can switch into Gengar and use Revelation Dance (Yveltal has a chance to OHKO Mega Gengar after Stealth Rock, if I remember right).

So I believe that doesn't place Mega Gengar in higher rank than current one for any reason, and yes, we were not supposed to talk about Pikachu and Chancer, we were supposed to talk about stuff in S rank excluding Chancer (both Primals, Zyg-C, Mega Ray, MMY).

 

[Halliday]

I would kind of like to point out that this thread isn't purely for viability rankings, and that it would be nice to discuss other relevant topics.

 

[Rumors]

I would kind of like to point out that this thread isn't purely for viability rankings, and that it would be nice to discuss other relevant topics.

Well, it is is the most discussible one. There's not much to say on the speed tiers or primer while analyses has their own area (and are moving along extremely slowly, if they've not been abandoned.) Role Compendium could be talked about a bit and... I guess other resources we might need?

 

[SomeIrish]

Speaking of roles, why is magnet pull one of Magearna's abilities in the vr? I can't see it being very useful compared to magnet pull pdon other than maybe setting hazards but that's not to say pdon can't so the same

 

[Halliday]

Speaking of roles, why is magnet pull one of Magearna's abilities in the vr? I can't see it being very useful compared to magnet pull pdon other than maybe setting hazards but that's not to say pdon can't so the same

I'm assuming it's there for the set that runs along side Doom Desire Dialga, which lets you trap both impostered Dialga, and impostered Magearna, which can be a bit of a boon over the standard Xerneas.

 

[willdbeast]

Speaking of roles, why is magnet pull one of Magearna's abilities in the vr? I can't see it being very useful compared to magnet pull pdon other than maybe setting hazards but that's not to say pdon can't so the same

Magearna has the niche of being immune to dragon, so it can phaze through their team with Dragon Tail and when their imposter gets dragged out it won't be able to switch and can't phaze you out. Also it's typing is useful all round.

 

[Lcass4919]

tbh, normalize has gotten much better now that you can use judgement without stones, but as everyone said, since theres so many common checks to it now, i think stakeout gengar poses a MUCH bigger threat in the current meta, as its the only imposterproof stakeout mon that dishes out CRAZY damage, rivaling stakeout pdon, while running perfect coverage, sludge bomb to smash yvel and audino, and even resisted hits will be able to secure KO's in the right scenarios. its speed tier is pretty amazing too, after one quiver dance even common scarfers cant outspeed, and +1 is all stakeout gar needs to wallbreak and sweep. best part is...walling this gengar is almost impossible. as even shit like regenvest, fur coat chansey, unaware and yveltal/audino can't hope to tank hits. cant post calcs at +1, but this gives a good idea on how stakeout helps gengar with wallbreaking/sweeping.

+2(stakeout) 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 300-354 (42.6 - 50.2%)
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%)
+2 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%)
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 174-206 (38.2 - 45.2%)

not that massively impressive at first glance, but lets not forget these are dedicated counters to gengar taking over 50% every time gengar attempts to RK something. which means they HAVE to recover up again or they lose the mon next switchin. and dont forget that this mon can set up too: (note, i doubled the moves BP, since i cant double gengars special attack, so some calcs will be off.) assuming quiver dance to help vs priority+some special bulk, but shell smash works too for obvious reasons.(disclaimer, chances of setup+stakeout isnt exactly common, but with stakeout+setup, it becomes a coinflip for the opponent to dish some damage, or switch and risk losing their check meaning you do get some setup chances dispite the scenario of needing two turns)
+1 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 393-463 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 502-592 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(502, 508, 514, 520, 526, 532, 538, 544, 550, 556, 562, 568, 574, 580, 586, 592)
+1 252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 246-291 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 321-378 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
basically, if gengar gets to +1, it becomes one of the scariest mons to switch into, and even without +1, its still not easy to switch into consistantly. you can run modest if you dont feel like tieing with gar and mm2x is worth it...which tbh, i dont think it is, so i sudgest modest.

so with this in mind, id like it if we could add this into gengars repertoire of sets, as from what ive seen, it is by far perhaps one of its best sets. imposterproof AND powerful as fuck if you try to switch out of it. think of it like a reverse shadow tag. instead of trapping the mon, your just luring it in forcefully to get blasted to smithereens