posting to say: ho-oh's reached #13 on usage
How is Heatran the best check when it is beaten in the long run?The best check is Heatran, but it is walled by sub-Ho-oh and will lose in the long run.
Heatran can't do much to Ho-oh (earth power doesn't effect it, fire blast does little damage, same with hp ice). The only way to take it out is via Explosion (this can also be circumvented if Ho-oh has Substitute). Ho-oh can also just drill Heatran with Earthquake. I'd say there are much better checks than Heatran. Possibilities include Kyogre and Palkia (with Choice Scarf), or faster Groudon who have Stone Edge.How is Heatran the best check when it is beaten in the long run?
Giratina-o is not the only uber with Stone Edge, it does not even outspeed Ho-oh. Mewtwo, Garchomp, Mew, Palkia and Rayquaza have all Stone Edge and they all are faster than Ho-oh.Giratina-o with Stone Edge should be mentioned, it can easily defeat Ho-oh.
ho-oh rarely runs max speed my friendGiratina-o is not the only uber with Stone Edge, it does not even outspeed Ho-oh. Mewtwo, Garchomp, Mew, Palkia and Rayquaza have all Stone Edge and they all are faster than Ho-oh.
The huge rock-weekness is mentioned in Jibakus post. To eliminate Ho-oh, Stone edge makes sence on any other pokemon with spe >89.
It is why Ho-oh is best off revenge killed, rather than direct counter, although Brave bird makes ho-oh hit like a truck anyways.I think we are forgetting Sacred Fire's 50% burn rate. You can force a switch, but you can't switch Giratina-O, Groudon, Garchomp, etc in without risking crippling them for the remainder of the match.
Brave Bird has pushed Ho-oh into a realm of Ubers who don't have counters, only checks. We can see this in a lot of Pokémon, like Rayquaza, Palkia, Darkrai (Primeape is fine, but sort of specialized), Mewtwo (Selfdestruct puts Blissey on edge), and many many more. This is not an uncommon occurance in the tier.It is why Ho-oh is best off revenge killed, rather than direct counter, although Brave bird makes ho-oh hit like a truck anyways.
As true as this may be, is it all that major? many common revenge killers in Ubers (kyogre, palkia, etc.) can take care of most ho oh fairly easily, assuming they're not behind a sub. I think that the most important thing to remember when you're facing ho oh is to force it to attack, by constantly attacking it yourself. that way, it can't set up a sub, and you can revenge kill it much more easily.Brave Bird has pushed Ho-oh into a realm of Ubers who don't have counters, only checks. We can see this in a lot of Pokémon, like Rayquaza, Palkia, Darkrai (Primeape is fine, but sort of specialized), Mewtwo (Selfdestruct puts Blissey on edge), and many many more. This is not an uncommon occurance in the tier.
Oh I'm not saying that it's a problem. As I said, having only checks (such as via revenge killing) is not an uncommon occurrence. Also, nothing is going to be banned from Ubers, so theres not much use worrying about whether Ho-oh is "broken" or not (it's not, but it is very good).As true as this may be, is it all that major? many common revenge killers in Ubers (kyogre, palkia, etc.) can take care of most ho oh fairly easily, assuming they're not behind a sub. I think that the most important thing to remember when you're facing ho oh is to force it to attack, by constantly attacking it yourself. that way, it can't set up a sub, and you can revenge kill it much more easily.
I agree, though, that with brave bird ho oh has become very hard to deal with.
If Ho-Oh is behind a sub (It usually is unless you go and break it), both are very likely to lose. Tyranitar risks getting burnt by Sacred Fire and Dialga also risks getting burnt, and it can't OHKO Ho-Oh with a Special Attack if Ho-Oh is close to full health due to Ho-Oh's sexy Special Defense.I've been using Tyranitar as a good check. I guess a Brave Bird + Earthquake would kill it, but it's not OHKOed, and it takes away the weather advantage. Sandstorm damage can really make a difference when it's already taking Life Orb and Brave Bird recoil, and Ho-oh no longer can abuse those sun-boosted Sacred Fires. Another decent check is Dialga, who isn't OHKOed by anything and with the right moveset it can OHKO back.
I don't mean to intrude too much on the main discussion, but wouldn't an 80% accurate move with 8 PP be less than ideal against a Pokemon with Pressure that is quite likely to run Sub, and have the ability to recover behind those Subs at any opportunity? This is also ignoring the obvious burn risk that comes with Ho-oh as standard.Giratina-o is a really solid check, it outspeeds most (if not all) Ho-oh`s and does 100% damage with a small Attack investment, so not even a burn can spare Ho-oh`s life when it switched into Stealth Rock.
While it does have extreme power, I personally find it inferior to Sub / Roost / Sacred Fire / BB + Life Orb. The coverage provided by Ho-oh's stabs alone is excellent, and it means that pokemon that resist one will probably not enjoy taking a hit from the other - Choice Band removes that ability to switch moves and means that something can come in on a resisted choice attack and set up. Never a good scenario.Choice band Ho-oh looks like it could be a real monster...
Just find a way to get around stealth rocks so you can abuse those powerful stab attacks and Ho-oh can rip a team in two.