Smogon Forums

Fini Bulu and Lele are all "ok"

Kartana is massively overrated and probly wont get banned.

Toxapex is just a solid OU mon. Magearna the same.

Dhelmise might be a sleeper.

Maybe some of the other non-Uber UBs will perform better than expected... and maybe Talon nerf might revitalize some other mons.

We might get Darkrai legal too. We get some interesting new toys like nerfed Soul Dew to work with, and Z-Moves might spice things up.

Its not rly that bad. Day 1 will be even MORE broken than XY though, which is exciting.

Yeah I was mostly memeing. But, Kartana, Overrated? Darkrai, OU? I've thought fairly hard about both of these things and they're basically impossible. Darkrai's Dark Pulse / Knock Off / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb set is like a better Greninja, because it can really fuck with Chansey. Sure it struggles to get past Mawile, Diancie, Heracross, and Conkeldurr, but none of these mons have good recovery, and neutral attacks still scuff them. That set seems to be damning to offense and defense alike, no?

As far as Kartana goes, it's practically the same thing. What can stand up to Sacred Sword / That new Steel move / Leaf Blade / Swords Dance or Night Slash? Skarmory gets cleanly 2HKO'd by +2 Sacred Sword and can't hit back because lol 131 defense. It can choose to roost+rocky helmet stall, but then it just gets 1 hit by +6. Zapdos is basically the only hope, but it's not like it likes to catch a CB Night Slash + Stealth Rocks, does it? It can almost 2HKO! Then of course, vs. an offensive team steel/grass has been proven to be a good defensive typing, couple that with 131 base defense and it's neither effortless to revenge kill, nor does it find it too hard to switch in and do damage.

Darkrai is a bit of a stretch but I rly don't think Kartanas going. 109 is fast but its still slow enough to where most of the offensive special attackers in the tier check it. It needs an SD or three to really be able to break stall, and it's going to struggle to get that up when it gets 2hko'd by resisted special moves. You can't switch it in on anything so pretty much all Kartana can do is come in on U-turns and then make a really gay guessing game on which button is going to press. If you guess the button correctly, it took 10% from LO while doing nothing, and another about 2 more times of doing that and everything in the tier can OHKO it. Its 181 Atk looks really scary but its lack of strong moves will immensely hold it back.

This is a retarded unrealistic calc but I think it gets the point across

252+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 235-277 (73.6 - 86.8%)

252+ Atk Life Orb 181 Atk 70 BP Steel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 231-273 (72.4 - 85.5%)

Its effective attack stat is significantly crippled and Grass/Steel are almost ignorable STABs. It would help enormously if you could actually counter anything using Kartana, and if that was possible it'd probably be Ubers, but as it exists it's only a check to certain threats and can't really counter... ANYTHING. No priority, easy to check, can't sweep, and dies to LO recoil after taking 1 hit from nearly anything- it has a ton of drawbacks that will likely get it stuck in the tier.

I see your argument. It is pretty much effortless to check it with any quick special attacker. But I dont think it struggles against Stall or dies as easily as you say. Yes of course special cuts it down like wheat in a thresher, but it isn't that frail on the physical side. Scarf Lando-T does like 60% with EQ, and gets 2HKO'd by leaf blade in return. And against Stall, yeah it has to boost a bunch, but who can stop it? Sableye, Chansey, Quagsire or whatever crap stall runs these days can't switch in. They basically have to throw Skarmory at it, but Skarmory doesn't beat it?

Leaf Blade's 90 base power is nothing to laugh it (though its neutral coverage is).

I could see Kartana staying, but it is very very dangerous.