Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
While I agree that Infernape has the potential to be ranked a bit higher, I don't get why a lot of the recent arguments for its rise base themselves on stuff like Life Orb and other offensive sets alongside the Scarf set when the Scarf set is pretty much its only viable set. If Infernape were to rise, it should be because of the effectiveness of its Scarf set, which has the niche of rkilling SG Magearna as well as Volcarona. Most offensive sets are irrelevant and shouldn't be taken into consideration for its rise imo, even less now that it's relatively higher compared to its initial ranking.
I agree that Scarf is it's most viable set, but I think Choice Band is a great way of handling bulkier teams.
 
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.

This is an insane amount of damage, which also proves that CB Nape has a good stall match up, but that's not the point right now. The point is, Infernape can run a bunch of different coverage moves to help it's match up against certain Pokemon. Furthermore, Infernape has access to U-Turn, which allows it to pivot out on switch out on counters such Zygarde and Greninja.
Yeah, it's pretty good damage, but there's some issues with this. For one, it's making the rather large assumption that you have rocks up against stall. More importantly, if you lock yourself into Thunder Punch, your opponent will just switch out of Pex and into Dugtrio and suddenly your Infernape is gone and you're down a mon. The only thing you've accomplished is some 20% chip on Toxapex after regenerator. CB Infernape is not good against stall. The absolute best case scenario is that it takes down one mon and then is swiftly revenged by Dugtrio.

The main idea here is that Infernape is very versatile, and with that very unpredictable. Some Pokemon you think would beat it may not beat it at all, which shakes up the meta quite a bit. That is why I think Infernape should be in B-, rather than C+, because it does in fact have a niche on some teams.
Versatility /=/ good. Look at Smeargle or Hydreigon. Hell, look at Mew prior to the release of Mega Medicham. It's one of the most versatile mons period, but before the meta shifted in its favor it was wallowing in B-.

And yes, Infernape does have a niche on some teams, which is why it's ranked at all.
 
I agree that Scarf is it's most viable set, but I think Choice Band is a great way of handling bulkier teams.
The problem with any Infernape set other than Scarf is how susceptible it is to Dugtrio. At least Scarf is capable of outpacing Duggy and OHKOing with nearly any of its main STABs, unless it runs in to Scarf Duggy which is a rare set and not as common as Sash or Tech Rage.

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
After this first hit, if Duggy is still alive, you're now forced to double out to prevent yourself being being trapped if you still want your Infernape for Chansey. Stall in this current metagame simply isn't kind to nape right now as long as Dugtrio has anything to say about it.

Edit: Fucking sniped gdi
 
LO Nape isn't as suspectible to Dug as people think thanks to Mach, but just like everything that doesn't resist Dug is fucking vulnerable to it because Dugtrio is horseshit so you have a point.

I honestly think Mixed Nape has always been B- since like XY, I've never had it be not useful because Mach gives it pressure vs HO and has a solid speed tier to get a free kill so it's not totally useful there, completely shits on balance if not running Pex and even if running Pex you have 5 other mons and hazards to abuse, and vs stall if there's no Pex it's incredibly easy to get a free kill. (EQ is an option for this reason if you want some support and baiting Sableye to make it a reality) Fire STAB is god tier and honestly besides how much bullshit Pokemon that has been introduced since DPP, Nape is actually relatively the same as he was in gen 4. (Which is why I think nobody used him until scarf, DPP is leagues more aggressive and balanced) I mean, I know none of you will agree with me on this, just pointing my 2 cents. Scarf Nape is fucking awesome and needs to be B-.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Just for the record, Infernape is ranked for its Scarf set. Nothing more nothing less. If it moves up, it will move up because of the viability of its Choice Scarf set, not its LO mixed set, Choice Band, Choice Specs, Focus Sash, Choice Fuck, w/e the kids are running these days on their apes. We don't care how "versatile" it is, we only care how viable its sets are, and regardless of what people love to keep saying about Ape, the only set that's ever had any sort of relevance in tour or in upper ladder has been Scarf.

Any sort of discussion on moving up Infernape because of another set is just not applicable, so all your arguments should be focusing on its best set, not all of its subpar sets that literally get zero usage in anything relevant.
 
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Anyways, Tapu Koko needs to rise to A+. Nearly everything about it right now is in its favor. Z-Wild Charge is a phenomenal lure to special walls. This also means its special attacking sets lure in more of its physical checks, such as Lando-T, Zygarde, ect, to come in and eat either HP Ice or LO/Specs Dazzling Gleam, making this mon pretty unpredictable at times. The team support it provides with its terrain makes Pokemon with Nature Power that much better, such as Mega Camerupt and Mega Diancie who gain access to a terrain-boosted Thunderbolt to blast through their would-be switchins.
 
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Indigo Plateau

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Another cool thing about Koko is that it can viably run either Gigavolt Havoc or Twinkle Tackle. Sure, Twinkle Tackle might not blast through as many things as GH does, but as seen with the recent success of Liones' team, TT can (with the proper team support) unexpectedly help dent mons such as Bulu, Lando, Tangrowth, Zygarde, and so on who would normally be able to tank a hit.

I don't want to reiterate what others have been saying, but this thing is so versatile. It can viably run Scarf, Specs, Stallbreaker, two Z moves, hell even stuff like CM or Work Up too.

Raise to A+.
 

Felixx

I'm back.

Tapu Bulu: Stay in A+

I understand that the rise of mega Venu may cause trouble for this tapu, but it's Bulu's immense damage and large array of different coverage moves and utility moves (superpower, zen headbutt, leech seed, taunt, stone edge, swords dance) that brought it to the A+ rank in the first place, not to mention grassy terrain support is extremely valuable for popular mons like Heatran and the newly released Diancie, and because of this it deserves to stay. Another good reason for it to stay is because it pressures Celes Toxa Tang balance cores with swords dance + zMove/life orb, and if you worry about mega Venu then just swap out stone edge for zen headbutt (when i say "pressures", i don't mean it outright kills everything, just weakens cores for teammates to clean up, and vice-versa). Finally, Zard Y counter play is less limited, greatly increasing Bulu's viable match-ups.

mega Venu is not the end of the world guys:

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 298-352 (82 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (life orb guarantees the OHKO, but again zMoves are very powerful on Bulu too)
 
Yea, Magic Bounce is a nice bonus on Mega Diance, not a "this is the defining feature of the mon that explains its ranking"

The fact that Diamond Storm has a 50% chance to +2 Defense means now that if you get the Defense boost your opponent can't switch in Garchomp and bluff Scarf/Sash and set up Rocks (or just set up Rocks period).
 
Since the Keldeo discussion is getting really messy, I would like to talk a bit about Keldeo as well. There seem to be very little dispute that the common Keldeo sets right now, namely scarf and spec, are clearly not enough to let it stay at A. And the CM/taunt/Z-hydro is the dispute.

In two ways I find it justifiable to rank a pokemon a particular way. One way is pretty straight forward, that the best set of the pokemon is so powerful the set itself easily warrants a rank.

The other way however, is that none of the builds of the pokemon warrants a high rank, but some of the builds are able to bluff each other so effectively it makes these entire set of builds much more difficult to be played around, and hence more threatening. In practice, "threatening" means the cost of scouting. This extra threat pushes some of the set through, and now the pokemon warrants the rank. We usually name this aspect as "versatility", though the common definitions of "versatility" does not automatically fits this argument IMO.

Best example for the second case would be Genesect, in most meta its does not really have any S rank sets but it always has too much A+/A sets it become ridiculous. IMO Land-T and Magearna justify their S rank in part due to this logic.

Applying it to Keldeo, it becomes a question of how powerful the new set is, and how much it is to scout Keldeo's new found versatility.

Which leads to me inclining to believe that Keldeo should drop to A-, from the discussion I see very little evidence showing that the Z set is an A material, and the set also does not make Keldeo's scarf/spec sets better.

This is some intensive theorymoning(lol) but I do hope it makes things a little cleaner.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
togekiss.gif

Togekiss down from B- to C+

Togekiss isn't really great right now in the meta, as while it can be a pretty good stallbreaker, it struggles with way too much of the other facets of the metagame to really shine other than in the stall matchup. Rising mons such as Tapu Koko and Mega Diancie are really bad for Kiss, as Togekiss gives them free switch-ins which can be quite bad for your team. Its never really been great in an offensive matchup, sure, but with how speedy the meta has been getting with mons like Koko, Togekiss barely even gets time to shine or even a chance to fish for a flinch. It has some defensive value as an insanely soft check to Zygarde and a decent check to Tapu Bulu, but that's really about it for Togekiss. Bulky Steels being everywhere isn't great for it either, as they force Togekiss to run Fire Blast (Usually with Firium Z, which makes for a cool lure to these Steels) over Heal Bell, which worsens it's stall matchup. While stall being as common as it is does help Togekiss, it's lack of value in pretty much any other matchup other than against CelePex teams with the Firium Z set makes it a really niche choice over other stallbreakers, and that is why I think a drop to C+ would better reflect Togekiss' viability in the meta than in B-.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
I have some more nominations now that I'm back home:

I'm gonna echo Cheryl's nom of Togekiss down. It's walled by steels, Koko is bad news, Zard Y balance is bad news (T-tar in particular), Mega Diancie is bad news, Aurora Veil is going out but it's bad for Togekiss too, and the Pex/Celes/Venu core has no trouble handling it unless Air Slash flinches too many times, which is far too RNG reliant to be considered consistent. This for sure has no place in B-. I'd even say a drop to C would be good for what it's worth.

In addition, Pelipper needs to go to A rank. Rain is super good right now vs Zard Y (switches the weather and lets another teammate handle it like Z Wild Koko, rain teams in general have the winning matchup), the Pex/Venu/Celes core (which Pelipper itself can break with proper prediction or have Mega Swampert break for it), the synergy with the rising Ash Ninja and Z-Wild Koko, beating Mega Diancie, and AV falling off. Mega Pert could also warrant a rise for its use on rain, as it's a godly breaker and sweeper under rain. Overall, rain teams are simply too effective in this meta for Pelipper to be in A-.
 

Alakazam for C+ or lower

There is no reason to use normal Alakazam over its mega form other than the obviously-telegraphed Sash Counter set, which lost its appeal a long time ago. Unlike Mega Alakazam, it's outpaced by both Grens and Tapu Koko, and just struggles verses bulky teams due to it being forced to run Focus Sash for its Counter set, which is its only "viable" set in this meta. While it can put physical set up sweepers like Lando, Mega Tar and Zygarde in check (it'll lose to Sub variants, tho), it can't stop any of the special attacking sweepers like SG Magearna and Volcarona unless it runs Thunder Wave, but along with Counter, that'll leave it with only two attacking moves and thus it'll be walled harder than before. It's borderline useless against bulky offense, balance, or stall unless they have hard hitting-physical attackers or set up sweepers. Duggy on stall can just Reversal turn 1 to break its Sash and then Zam's strategy is completely ruined unless it wins the speed tie.
 

Mega Latias should remain in B+ (possibly drop to B)

I think Mega Latias' rank is great in B+, but for those asking for A-, I don't think it is where Latias belongs. I know its stats are a blessing, and that it can be quite a fearsome Late Game Sweeper with Stored Power and Calm Mind once its checks are removed; but its typing is a curse, as it cannot reliably check Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Mega Diancie, Magearna, Greninja, Gengar, and many of the tier's premier Special Attackers, adding to this, it has so many checks that the Stored Power set rarely puts work because it is nearly impossible to set the stage up for it to sweep. Additionally, it is kind of forced to run max Speed wasting a considerable chunk of that bulk in the process. While it is for sure a realiable Defogger, it is far from special and mostly fits on bulkier teams that desperately need a Charizard-Y awnser that doesn't get trapped neither by Duggy nor by Tyranitar, is it for sure an important 'mon, having many important niches, but I think A- is too much for it. Bulky Offense doesn't gain much from it because the defensive backbone of this kind of archetype should be as solid as possible while wasting the fewest slots, Mega Latias does the opposite, as it gives weaknesses to all the aforementioned Pokemon, when the team should be looking for a realiable switch in to them. Stall shouldn't run it either, as Chansey kind of does its role better despite being indeed trapped by Duggy.


Mega Diancie should rise to A+

Mega Diancie is for sure meta defining! It's STABs + HP Fire and Earth Power hit the entire tier really hard, leaving few Pokemon as reliable switch ins, and because of the ease it has to force switches, it can reliably set up Stealth Rock, Calm Mind or a Rock Polish, making it even more unpredictable and versatile. The Diamond Storm buff is also huge for it allowing it to potentially beat Duggy 1v1 if at +2 Speed. I feel like it really belongs to A+ just because of the sheer offensive presence it applies in many common playstyles such as Stall, Balance and Bulky Offense. While I could see it staying in A because of a couple of notable flaws it has, namely Speed, Bulk and Duggy, I still think it has carved a really solid place in the meta in just a couple of weeks.


Mega Altaria should drop to C+ (possibly drop to C)

This thing is just really lackluster, even before it's release we all knew it would only get worse, the influxs of Fairies and Steels along with the Pixielate nerf and Power Creep just completely ruined for Mega Altaria, it is not strong, it is not fast and it is not bulky enough. While I do love this Dragon bird and I'd love to find a place for it in the meta there's just simply no room for it in OU, it just requires so much support to perform well in this tier, pretty much mandating Magnezone and a Mega Venusaur lure as partners. Additionally, it doesn't accomplish much to any playstyle, it is for sure not a realiable late game cleaner because of the number of OU viable Pokemon that outright wall it, such as the well known CelePex core, the aforementioned Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, Ferrothorn and many other Pokemon. Conclusively, it requires way too much support to effectively sweep or dent an opponent's team and I believe B- Pokemon should bring more to the table then what Altaria brings


Tapu Koko should rise to A+

This should rise for sure! Koko is such a meta defining threat because of its splashability, viability and reliability; being able to run a plethora of viable sets such as Electrium Z, the standard Magnet HP Ice set, Dazzling Gleam + HP Fire, Choice Specs, and Choice Scarf. It is also a huge nuisance to the common Charizard-Y + Duggy balance as well as to CelePex teams since it can always U-turn out on the Tangrowth and is overall very tough to reliably switch into, even AV Magearna and Chansey who used to be counters when the Electrium Z set wasn't discovered yet aren't realiable answers anymore. The influx of Mega Latias and Mega Diancie also help it as it beats both 1v1 with Dazzling Gleam for Latias and some chip damage for Diancie.
 
Exploudit

your mega latias argument was poor. greninja isn't even an answer to mega latias because it easily takes dark pulse after a calm mind and destroys it with thunderbolt. non-fairium z magearna loses to cm latias 1v1 assuming no critical hits and fairium z variants lose all the time if it switches in as mega latias calm minds. gengar and mega diancie have to win multiple ties if they want to scratch mega latias, and tapu lele has to be specs to pose a threat. point is mega latias is a frightening sweeper so i don't know where you are getting this "hard to set up the stage for it" argument from. i have seen mega latias just win from turn 5, and it can run surf > thunderbolt to nail heatran and tyranitar instead of greninja and mantine.

i disagree with diancie rising because of dugtrio. the diamond storm +2 argument is not a thing since in a real game diancie has to take damage from seismic toss, knock off, heat waves, etc...before dugtrio comes in to kill it. if you don't let it take damage then diancie won't be doing anything against stall outside of forcing chansey in. inability to touch certain pokemon without the right coverage move is problematic and its below average defenses make it easy to pick off with pokemon such as tapu koko and mega lopunny. these are not really the traits of a defining metagame threats.

on the slate / other people's opinions:

- i been saying tapu koko should rise. no other pokemon gives you as much initiative as tapu koko. z-wild charge/taunt/roost/u-turn completely shits on stall and it is one of the best momentum grabbers in the game. specs is rising in usage and it is a very hard threat to manage. really you only see these sets but other sets like tapunium z are rising because people are straying away from tangrowth and going to other measures such as mega venusaur and making ballsy plays with ground-types.

- tapu bulu should stay where it is. grassy terrain + being an offensive ash greninja check is a blessing. the main thing is tapu bulu adapts. we are seeing mega scizor rising in usage so fightinium z is now back in the cut. trick room and stall? no problem. life orb subsd is seeing usage now. i have seen zen bulu a ton again with venusaur all over the place.

- the metagame is way too fucking bulky for scarf keldeo to strive. the mu where keldeo is supposed to strive? yea you know it doesn't even beat common ho playstyles in trick room and birdspam? specs is cool, but toxapex is all over the place along with shit like venusaur and latios coming back. also all the new mega releases are against specs keldeo, meaning it will never be a threat it is on paper. also fuck waterium z keldeo. that is no set.

tigers jaw brought volcarona up again, and i can see where he is coming from. you cannot be getting walled by toxapex which forces psychium z on most sets, but at the same time you have to notice that 100+ scarfers have dropped a ton in usage since people are realizing they aren't that threatening. i lean towards A because i can never see myself using bugz atm cuz thapex. it's in an awkward spot right now.
 
Disclaimer before I get to the rest of the post: This post is mostly about things that i have seen from olt as my evidence as why i think these changes should happen


Mega Latias: B+ --> A-
This thing saw a bunch of usage in olt. Its calm mind sets are amazing, but so are its reflect type sets to make ttar less of a check. It also has roost three attacks and roost defog two attacks sets that are amazing. It is also a huge counter to zard y duggy teams without ttar, and if they don't have ttar lati can just set up in their face and win. Also, with toxapex and other fat things that lati can set up on being so prevalent like mew, it only makes mega lati better. It is also in this team which was arguably the most popular team in this cycle of olt:
http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c




Clefable: A --> A+
This one i can see if it doesn't go through, but I do believe clefable does deserve a spot in A+. For a while now, but especially olt, this has been one of the most splashable mons on literally any team. With balance being as good as it is, being a great bulky stealth rocker or/and a bulky calm mind sweeper is fantastic. It can also run knock off, thunder wave, and even toxic to help its matchup against other teams. In olt it saw a bunch of usage, specifically on these teams: http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50 http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c and the semi stall team used in olt a lot with the ditto, chansey, skarmory, zygarde, and medicham. And, it is also, as always, amazing on every single stall which is one of the best playstyles this gen. Overall, clefable is a monster.




Mega Scizor: A- --> A
Obviously, mega scizor was amazing early on in the gen with megagross being broken, but after it was banned scizor dropped down a lot in usage and viability. The SD roost knock off bullet punch set is amazing right now, as it invalidates aurora veil, and has knock off to pressure celesteela and toxapex so that they aren't super reliable switches/if needed scizor can risk scald burns vs toxapex and set up right in its face if it for some reason doesn't have haze. It also has bulky defog sets to be a super reliable defogger, especially on the double defog balance with mantine, tapu lele, weavile etc. It also saw great usage in this team during olt: http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50 as well as the other one used in olt with kyurem black, weavile, heatran, tapu fini, and landorus.




Mega Venusaur: A- --> A
Mega Venusaur was one of the very most used pokemon in olt this cycle, and probably a top 3 most used mega for olt as well. Being a soft check for ash gren before it evolves, a check for zygarde, a dugtrio answer, tapu bulu check, mew check, toxapex check, mega diancie check, ferrothorn check most of the time, a check to non cm stored power clef sometimes, etc. It is just such a great defensive mon and pairs greatly with celesteela and toxapex, two of the other most popular mons right now. It was used in teams a bunch in olt like balances with celesteela, toxapex, reunuclis, etc. This hit a huge spike up in popularity and for good reason.




Zapdos: A- --> A
I think this one is long overdue. Zapdos fits on so many teams with so many different sets and so many utilizations. It is amazing on balance, it is a great celesteela answer, it is really good against stall, it has the offensive agility set, it has roost three attacks, it has roost defog two attacks, and even if you want you could possibly run u turn or volt switch to catch people off guard and get momentum. It is also amazing on rain with agility and z move. It was also used in this team that was very popular in olt http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50



Mega Lopunny: B+ --> A- (possibly even A)
Lopunny got a lot of usage in olt and world cup. It has a lot of variety to fill a bunch of different roles. It can run ice punch, return and hjk are a given, power up punch, fake out, quick attack, toxic, copycat for spikes, tspikes, rocks, webs, and even healing wish to help a teammate. It is a great cleaner with amazing speed, it can be a sweeper when things are weakened, it can be amazing on hyper offense or bulky offense with spikes support which is very easy to fit this gen with gren, ferrothorn, skarmory, etc. It was also used in the team during olt with zygarde, clefable, magearna, lando-t, and gren.



Dragonite: B- --> B
I love dragonite, so I might be biased, but i think with the great popularity of the birdspam team, this is a valid rise. There really is not too much to say about this. Dragonite is on a really super popular team, and he's kind of just a set up and sweep pokemon. The problem with dragonite is that it actually does suffer from 4mss. If it had more than four moves, it could literally beat every pokemon after one or two dragon dances, but it can't do that because it doesn't have enough moves. But, it still can choose what pokemon it wants to counter essentially, making it a great addition to teams that are weak to a certain pokemon. It also does have a great bulky dragon dance roost set with leftovers, a choice band set, and even a really niche expert belt special attacking set which isn't really known or used but it can be good for taking on landorus', tangrowths, magearna, etc.



Gliscor: C -->B-
Gliscor saw virtually no usage this whole gen, until this cycle of olt, where it really shined. It was used on the mega latias team that I showed earlier but if you didn't wanna see that, the team is right here http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c it really shines against stall where it can set up on virtually anything on stall and win, due to the fact that it can't get statused or trapped by dugtrio, and weavile isn't on stall at all anymore. It is also really good at annoying bulky teams, so overall I think it is well deserving of a rise.



Tapu Koko: A --> A+
Everyone explained why this should move up and I just wanna say that I agree with everything that everybody else said for why this should rise.
 
Exploudit

your mega latias argument was poor. greninja isn't even an answer to mega latias because it easily takes dark pulse after a calm mind and destroys it with thunderbolt. non-fairium z magearna loses to cm latias 1v1 assuming no critical hits and fairium z variants lose all the time if it switches in as mega latias calm minds. gengar and mega diancie have to win multiple ties if they want to scratch mega latias, and tapu lele has to be specs to pose a threat. point is mega latias is a frightening sweeper so i don't know where you are getting this "hard to set up the stage for it" argument from. i have seen mega latias just win from turn 5, and it can run surf > thunderbolt to nail heatran and tyranitar instead of greninja and mantine.

i disagree with diancie rising because of dugtrio. the diamond storm +2 argument is not a thing since in a real game diancie has to take damage from seismic toss, knock off, heat waves, etc...before dugtrio comes in to kill it. if you don't let it take damage then diancie won't be doing anything against stall outside of forcing chansey in. inability to touch certain pokemon without the right coverage move is problematic and its below average defenses make it easy to pick off with pokemon such as tapu koko and mega lopunny. these are not really the traits of a defining metagame threats.

on the slate / other people's opinions:

- i been saying tapu koko should rise. no other pokemon gives you as much initiative as tapu koko. z-wild charge/taunt/roost/u-turn completely shits on stall and it is one of the best momentum grabbers in the game. specs is rising in usage and it is a very hard threat to manage. really you only see these sets but other sets like tapunium z are rising because people are straying away from tangrowth and going to other measures such as mega venusaur and making ballsy plays with ground-types.

- tapu bulu should stay where it is. grassy terrain + being an offensive ash greninja check is a blessing. the main thing is tapu bulu adapts. we are seeing mega scizor rising in usage so fightinium z is now back in the cut. trick room and stall? no problem. life orb subsd is seeing usage now. i have seen zen bulu a ton again with venusaur all over the place.

- the metagame is way too fucking bulky for scarf keldeo to strive. the mu where keldeo is supposed to strive? yea you know it doesn't even beat common ho playstyles in trick room and birdspam? specs is cool, but toxapex is all over the place along with shit like venusaur and latios coming back. also all the new mega releases are against specs keldeo, meaning it will never be a threat it is on paper. also fuck waterium z keldeo. that is no set.

tigers jaw brought volcarona up again, and i can see where he is coming from. you cannot be getting walled by toxapex which forces psychium z on most sets, but at the same time you have to notice that 100+ scarfers have dropped a ton in usage since people are realizing they aren't that threatening. i lean towards A because i can never see myself using bugz atm cuz thapex. it's in an awkward spot right now.
You have a fair argument, I was mostly talking about the Defog set though, as it was the one I tested the most, and both sets do indeed loose to all Pokemon I mentioned 1v1 if Latias still doesn't have a Calm Mind Up. But I totally get your point though, I will test out the Stored Power Set a bit more, I thought I had enough knowledge of Latias to make a post here but apparently I don't, my bad. As for Diancie, Duggy wasn't really what's making me support a Diancie rise, it's more of a bonus, because the Diancie player obviously can't rely on Def boosts with Diamond Storm to beat Duggy, my main point was still about the offensive presence it applies and the switches it forces. But thanks for the comment though, it's always nice to take a look at some other points of view. As for your thoughts, I completely back up Bulu staying in A, I didn't have time to talk about it in my original post but it was a point I was wanting to cover.
 
You have a fair argument, I was mostly talking about the Defog set though, as it was the one I tested the most, and both sets do indeed loose to all Pokemon I mentioned 1v1 if Latias still doesn't have a Calm Mind Up. But I totally get your point though, I will test out the Stored Power Set a bit more, I thought I had enough knowledge of Latias to make a post here but apparently I don't, my bad. As for Diancie, Duggy wasn't really what's making me support a Diancie rise, it's more of a bonus, because the Diancie player obviously can't rely on Def boosts with Diamond Storm to beat Duggy, my main point was still about the offensive presence it applies and the switches it forces. But thanks for the comment though, it's always nice to take a look at some other points of view. As for your thoughts, I completely back up Bulu staying in A, I didn't have time to talk about it in my original post but it was a point I was wanting to cover.
Few things:

Yeah, it loses to the mons you mentioned, but it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Reflect Type and Calm Mind both change quite a few of those match ups to be in Latias's favor - most notably Tapu Lele and Koko, and Koko and Magearna both can't get through it at all if they don't run a fairy move, which is fairly common for both.

Dugtrio definitely shouldn't be what's making you support a Diancie rise and it's definitely not a bonus to Diancie's viability.

Bulu is currently in A+, not A.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST

Alakazam for C+ or lower

There is no reason to use normal Alakazam over its mega form other than the obviously-telegraphed Sash Counter set, which lost its appeal a long time ago. Unlike Mega Alakazam, it's outpaced by both Grens and Tapu Koko, and just struggles verses bulky teams due to it being forced to run Focus Sash for its Counter set, which is its only "viable" set in this meta. While it can put physical set up sweepers like Lando, Mega Tar and Zygarde in check (it'll lose to Sub variants, tho), it can't stop any of the special attacking sweepers like SG Magearna and Volcarona unless it runs Thunder Wave, but along with Counter, that'll leave it with only two attacking moves and thus it'll be walled harder than before. It's borderline useless against bulky offense, balance, or stall unless they have hard hitting-physical attackers or set up sweepers. Duggy on stall can just Reversal turn 1 to break its Sash and then Zam's strategy is completely ruined unless it wins the speed tie.
While the argument is fair, I don't quite agree with this nom. Specifically the point about having no reason to run it over it's Mega. I think it's kind of the 'Zard X vs Zard Y' syndrome (with Zard Y being one of our meta's best iirc, and making the off Zard X all the more of a surprise), where you can't just presume it's one or the other, and you end up in 50/50s for it. CounterZam and Mega Alakazam is that same 50/50, in basically all the same ways except the type change. Picture this:

Say I have a Scarf Lando-T out in front of Zam: in a lot of cases - one would probably just Click EQ, and there's a dead Alakazam for you. However, the threat of this set would make that more unrealistic, and would put Lando at a risk of dying itself. Similarly, an attempted prediction of the Counter (if applicable) could lead to you getting blasted by a Mega Evolution, and ending up in a fairly bad position from there. This is similar to when you have an unevolved Charizard in front of you, and you're trying to rack your mind whether it would be X or Y mega, otherwise you potentially lose a mon, or something like whether an opposing Gyarados is Flyinium DD or Mega DD, so stuff like Gengar can't just default to Shadow Ball spam vs you or you potentially lose the game.

With this - I do think SashZam frees up a bit of space in teambuilding, in this way. It allows for another mega such as Zard Y / Gyarados / Tyranitar etc., while keeping that animosity to an extent. All 4 have their uses in and out of their Mega forms (except for Zard, but the XY coin toss patches that up), which hearkens back to the 50/50s a prospect like this can force. When you said it was useless vs BO/Balance... well - couldn't the threat of Mega Alakazam provoke plays from those playstyles, that allows CounterSash to do work? That's how this set functions in my mind.

Oh, and the Dugtrio example? I'd say that's another example of said 50/50 (speed tie not withstanding) and mind games. It's a 4 way street:
  • Duggy EQs; Zam Psychics - both down to sashes, speed tie plays out.
  • Duggy EQs; Zam Counters - both down to sashes, speed tie plays out.
  • Duggy Reversals: Zam Counters - speed tie (again)
  • Duggy Reversals: Zam Psychics - speed tie (again)
This might be forgone is Dugtrio is running Sucker Punch, but A) A lot of Dugtrios' have dropped that (if I'm not mistaken) for Screech/Toxic, and B) Zam can force just as many mindgames with it (if they know Duggy has it ofc).

I might have been able to word this better, but it's the best way I can put the thought down from my head. So:

065g4.gif
Drop: Disagree

BTW I've never understood the notion that SashZam HAS to be 3atk Counter. Running Sash means you hit about as hard as a stale bread bun anyway, so those last 2 slots can go to utility such as TWave/Disable/Taunt etc.. Idk, it's just how I've thought of it, could be wrong :j.
 
While the argument is fair, I don't quite agree with this nom. Specifically the point about having no reason to run it over it's Mega. I think it's kind of the 'Zard X vs Zard Y' syndrome (with Zard Y being one of our meta's best iirc, and making the off Zard X all the more of a surprise), where you can't just presume it's one or the other, and you end up in 50/50s for it. CounterZam and Mega Alakazam is that same 50/50, in basically all the same ways except the type change. Picture this:

Say I have a Scarf Lando-T out in front of Zam: in a lot of cases - one would probably just Click EQ, and there's a dead Alakazam for you. However, the threat of this set would make that more unrealistic, and would put Lando at a risk of dying itself. Similarly, an attempted prediction of the Counter (if applicable) could lead to you getting blasted by a Mega Evolution, and ending up in a fairly bad position from there. This is similar to when you have an unevolved Charizard in front of you, and you're trying to rack your mind whether it would be X or Y mega, otherwise you potentially lose a mon, or something like whether an opposing Gyarados is Flyinium DD or Mega DD, so stuff like Gengar can't just default to Shadow Ball spam vs you or you potentially lose the game.

With this - I do think SashZam frees up a bit of space in teambuilding, in this way. It allows for another mega such as Zard Y / Gyarados / Tyranitar etc., while keeping that animosity to an extent. All 4 have their uses in and out of their Mega forms (except for Zard, but the XY coin toss patches that up), which hearkens back to the 50/50s a prospect like this can force. When you said it was useless vs BO/Balance... well - couldn't the threat of Mega Alakazam provoke plays from those playstyles, that allows CounterSash to do work? That's how this set functions in my mind.

Oh, and the Dugtrio example? I'd say that's another example of said 50/50 (speed tie not withstanding) and mind games. It's a 4 way street:
  • Duggy EQs; Zam Psychics - both down to sashes, speed tie plays out.
  • Duggy EQs; Zam Counters - both down to sashes, speed tie plays out.
  • Duggy Reversals: Zam Counters - speed tie (again)
  • Duggy Reversals: Zam Psychics - speed tie (again)
This might be forgone is Dugtrio is running Sucker Punch, but A) A lot of Dugtrios' have dropped that (if I'm not mistaken) for Screech/Toxic, and B) Zam can force just as many mindgames with it (if they know Duggy has it ofc).

I might have been able to word this better, but it's the best way I can put the thought down from my head. So:

View attachment 87151 Drop: Disagree

BTW I've never understood the notion that SashZam HAS to be 3atk Counter. Running Sash means you hit about as hard as a stale bread bun anyway, so those last 2 slots can go to utility such as TWave/Disable/Taunt etc.. Idk, it's just how I've thought of it, could be wrong :j.
It's pretty obvious that it's not Mega Alakazam when you run Alakazam alongside other Mega's like Charizard, Scizor (reg sciz is lolbad in SM OU), Mawile, Pinsir, Diancie, Medicham, Sableye, Gallade, etc. With another mega like T-Tar or Gyarados, however, it's admittedly a different story as their normal forms are still good in the meta, so the "surprise" really only works with a select few other mega Pokemon, not the whole OU roster of them.

Also, I already said in my nomination that it handles Lando along with other physical sweepers/breakers. That's one of Sash Zam's main niches that allows it to be ranked at all.
 
-> unrank: i think the council forgot about this like rotom. this should be nowhere near chandelure, infernape or ditto but maybe you salty dogs know some hidden tech i dont know. latios and mega latias are as common as they were in oras, except theyre even better now. thapex exists and can stall it out of steam eruptions, and toxic / tspike in its face. it doesnt beat mage due to electric coverage / gigavolt havoc. dugtrio is a thing. diancie dropped which blows it up. venu has the most usage since like week 2 of SM. its resists aren't particularly good due to being weak to all hazards. dead weight vs stall cause they go tox / chansey every time and gets a free hazard. it gets koko a free thunderbolt, and lele can take any stab hit from it and fire back (which is already a headache to deal with.) It cant switch into bulu and does no damage with poison move to fini. has terrible match up vs ho cause its slow and not particularly bulky.

I asked around and the only productive answer i got was groundiumz to lure toxapex which isnt consistant in any game. It also has literally 1% usage in ladder play and even less than 1% in tours which is funny cause this was a fan favorite i believe - Volcanion - #91 in OU | Usage: 1.26508% | Raw count: 56,387 | Weight: 0.520001818652
 
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Few things:

Yeah, it loses to the mons you mentioned, but it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Reflect Type and Calm Mind both change quite a few of those match ups to be in Latias's favor - most notably Tapu Lele and Koko, and Koko and Magearna both can't get through it at all if they don't run a fairy move, which is fairly common for both.

Dugtrio definitely shouldn't be what's making you support a Diancie rise and it's definitely not a bonus to Diancie's viability.

Bulu is currently in A+, not A.
Dude, did you even read my post?
  • I clearly said Duggy is not whats making me support a Diancie rise, and neither it is a bonus, I have just mentioned how the Diamond Storm buff was a bonus potentially allowing it to beat it occasionally, not a bonus to Diancie's viablity.
  • I already acknowledged that Mega Latias beats the 'mons I mentioned from Vertex's post, there's absolutely no need to repeat it. I just pointed out in my second post that the Defog set which is at least the one I tested looses to them and that I should have tested the Stored Power set a bit more before making the comment I made.
  • As for Bulu I meant A+, not A, thanks for the warning.
 
Disclaimer before I get to the rest of the post: This post is mostly about things that i have seen from olt as my evidence as why i think these changes should happen


Mega Latias: B+ --> A-
This thing saw a bunch of usage in olt. Its calm mind sets are amazing, but so are its reflect type sets to make ttar less of a check. It also has roost three attacks and roost defog two attacks sets that are amazing. It is also a huge counter to zard y duggy teams without ttar, and if they don't have ttar lati can just set up in their face and win. Also, with toxapex and other fat things that lati can set up on being so prevalent like mew, it only makes mega lati better. It is also in this team which was arguably the most popular team in this cycle of olt:
http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c




Clefable: A --> A+
This one i can see if it doesn't go through, but I do believe clefable does deserve a spot in A+. For a while now, but especially olt, this has been one of the most splashable mons on literally any team. With balance being as good as it is, being a great bulky stealth rocker or/and a bulky calm mind sweeper is fantastic. It can also run knock off, thunder wave, and even toxic to help its matchup against other teams. In olt it saw a bunch of usage, specifically on these teams: http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50 http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c and the semi stall team used in olt a lot with the ditto, chansey, skarmory, zygarde, and medicham. And, it is also, as always, amazing on every single stall which is one of the best playstyles this gen. Overall, clefable is a monster.




Mega Scizor: A- --> A
Obviously, mega scizor was amazing early on in the gen with megagross being broken, but after it was banned scizor dropped down a lot in usage and viability. The SD roost knock off bullet punch set is amazing right now, as it invalidates aurora veil, and has knock off to pressure celesteela and toxapex so that they aren't super reliable switches/if needed scizor can risk scald burns vs toxapex and set up right in its face if it for some reason doesn't have haze. It also has bulky defog sets to be a super reliable defogger, especially on the double defog balance with mantine, tapu lele, weavile etc. It also saw great usage in this team during olt: http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50 as well as the other one used in olt with kyurem black, weavile, heatran, tapu fini, and landorus.




Mega Venusaur: A- --> A
Mega Venusaur was one of the very most used pokemon in olt this cycle, and probably a top 3 most used mega for olt as well. Being a soft check for ash gren before it evolves, a check for zygarde, a dugtrio answer, tapu bulu check, mew check, toxapex check, mega diancie check, ferrothorn check most of the time, a check to non cm stored power clef sometimes, etc. It is just such a great defensive mon and pairs greatly with celesteela and toxapex, two of the other most popular mons right now. It was used in teams a bunch in olt like balances with celesteela, toxapex, reunuclis, etc. This hit a huge spike up in popularity and for good reason.




Zapdos: A- --> A
I think this one is long overdue. Zapdos fits on so many teams with so many different sets and so many utilizations. It is amazing on balance, it is a great celesteela answer, it is really good against stall, it has the offensive agility set, it has roost three attacks, it has roost defog two attacks, and even if you want you could possibly run u turn or volt switch to catch people off guard and get momentum. It is also amazing on rain with agility and z move. It was also used in this team that was very popular in olt http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50



Mega Lopunny: B+ --> A- (possibly even A)
Lopunny got a lot of usage in olt and world cup. It has a lot of variety to fill a bunch of different roles. It can run ice punch, return and hjk are a given, power up punch, fake out, quick attack, toxic, copycat for spikes, tspikes, rocks, webs, and even healing wish to help a teammate. It is a great cleaner with amazing speed, it can be a sweeper when things are weakened, it can be amazing on hyper offense or bulky offense with spikes support which is very easy to fit this gen with gren, ferrothorn, skarmory, etc. It was also used in the team during olt with zygarde, clefable, magearna, lando-t, and gren.



Dragonite: B- --> B
I love dragonite, so I might be biased, but i think with the great popularity of the birdspam team, this is a valid rise. There really is not too much to say about this. Dragonite is on a really super popular team, and he's kind of just a set up and sweep pokemon. The problem with dragonite is that it actually does suffer from 4mss. If it had more than four moves, it could literally beat every pokemon after one or two dragon dances, but it can't do that because it doesn't have enough moves. But, it still can choose what pokemon it wants to counter essentially, making it a great addition to teams that are weak to a certain pokemon. It also does have a great bulky dragon dance roost set with leftovers, a choice band set, and even a really niche expert belt special attacking set which isn't really known or used but it can be good for taking on landorus', tangrowths, magearna, etc.



Gliscor: C -->B-
Gliscor saw virtually no usage this whole gen, until this cycle of olt, where it really shined. It was used on the mega latias team that I showed earlier but if you didn't wanna see that, the team is right here http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c it really shines against stall where it can set up on virtually anything on stall and win, due to the fact that it can't get statused or trapped by dugtrio, and weavile isn't on stall at all anymore. It is also really good at annoying bulky teams, so overall I think it is well deserving of a rise.



Tapu Koko: A --> A+
Everyone explained why this should move up and I just wanna say that I agree with everything that everybody else said for why this should rise.
I completely agree with you on a Dragonite rise. While there is a lot in the meta that threatens it, multiscale helps a lot and it is an absolute monster that hits like a freight train after a dragon dance or two. It is very good on the birdspam team and i have had great success with it in the metagame.
 
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