Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 11: DNA | Deoxys-Attack Banned

[Howfalcons]

usage in OSDT at ~12% usage, and even lower in DPL. For a supposedly banworthy Pokemon that is very low

Didn't Commander get banned with ~11% usage? Usage rate is not the be-all-end-all of centralization. Deo-A is definitely a pokemon you need to think about in the builder and if you don't bring a specific answer (or two) and also play correctly you will lose to it. That pressure in the builder and on the field is clearly centralizing. Plus, it's two most common checks (incin and rillaboom) are also heavily pressured by it.

While deo does generally want indeedee on the same team, that two-pack is easy to slap onto any team, which means no composition will be able to check every deo team. You always need to contend with the other 4 pokemon while keeping your deo checks healthy.

IMO the pressure it creates in the builder and on the field are unhealthy and unfun, and I have voted Ban.

 

[Nephtyrix]

Vote ban and go next, thanks all <3

 

[Darkmalice]

Didn't Commander get banned with ~11% usage? Usage rate is not the be-all-end-all of centralization. Deo-A is definitely a pokemon you need to think about in the builder and if you don't bring a specific answer (or two) and also play correctly you will lose to it. That pressure in the builder and on the field is clearly centralizing. Plus, it's two most common checks (incin and rillaboom) are also heavily pressured by it.

While deo does generally want indeedee on the same team, that two-pack is easy to slap onto any team, which means no composition will be able to check every deo team. You always need to contend with the other 4 pokemon while keeping your deo checks healthy.

IMO the pressure it creates in the builder and on the field are unhealthy and unfun, and I have voted Ban.

-1 4 Atk Tera Psychic Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Incineroar: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%)

Incineroar can switch in and never be 2HKOed, at least without Helping Hand which still doesn't OHKO and may still not 2HKO if it has Sitrus Berry. Incineroar also checks Indeedee with Knock Off. I have always felt more threatened from Incineroar using Deo-A than vice-versa.

Rillaboom only gets OHKOed by Tera Psychic Helping Hand Psycho Boost, which is quite a call for the Deo-A user to make on the switch-in. After the switch-in, Rillaboom gets Fake Out for at least one free turn, especially if the paired Indeedee lacks Protect.

The two are also commonly paired together, and/or may be paired with another check or two, which helps more reliably deal with Deo-A whilst also dealing with the other 4 Pokemon. Most teams incidentally bring a check or more to Deo-A without specifically planning for it.

 

[Yoda2798]

There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Ban having received over 60% of the vote already, Deoxys-Attack will be banned from SV DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:

Ban: 35 (81.4%)
Do Not Ban: 7 (16.3%)
Votes Remaining: 1 (2.3)
Total Voters: 43

Post below your thoughts on this new metagame change, and any other metagame elements you wish to discuss!

 

[SuckyLucky]

Iron Hands WILL be T1 by dawn

 

[MidKnight22]

time for Deo-N to shine (Deoxys-Nerfed)

 

[eragon]

today I'm joined by Smudge KeanuVGC and Schister as we take a look at ranking tera types in Doubles OU!

Tierlist we used (changed the tiers to match more with DOU)

 

[Charlotte]

Can we ban Snow Cloak, Sand Veil, and Brightpowder?
Every mon with those abilities has access to an alternative, so no mon is completely lost through this. OU has already banned all three, so why does doubles in particular entertain keeping them?
Cloak Articuno is particularly common on ladder right now, owing to recent success in vgc (thank you tyo), and several of our ladder sand heroes are still using veil Garchomp too. So this isn't a non-issue by virtue of being extremely rare.
I don't think passive evasion boosts are adding anything positive to our game, while actively taking away from it.

 

[SuckyLucky]

DOU Usage stats for April!

 

[eragon]

video discussing the survey with Schister and myself

There's two mons we discuss a fair amount here that I think are the most suspect worthy:

A large portion of this video deals with Torn and quite frankly this is probably the best target for a potential suspect. This is a very dominant Pokemon in the metagame, fitting on a wide variety team and taking advantage of multiple buffs its received-- primarily cloak and bleakwind storm. This mon leads to a very specific kind of offensive structure surrounding Lando I and itself that the metagame currently centers around at the moment (snow and pao in particular capitalize on this). Centralizing mon that is pretty annoying and I think it would be good to see a look at this, particularly if survey results support it (I think there's a pretty decent chance they will, based on conversations I've had with others).


Good mon, a little stupid with stamina bs. Might be also worth taking a look at but I currently view torn as a more systemic issue. Not opposed to action on this and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the most widely mentioned mon on the survey. Def could be broken but personally less certain on this than with torn. Probably one of the strongest users of tera but I think there's a few things that help keep it somewhat in check- primarily Lando but even that can be a bit shaky at times.

In regards to other stuff, tera isn't really the core issue and not something I think we need to anything about, worth keeping an eye on per usual but I think it mostly just has the same typical problems as other gimmicks (primarily benefits the top mons) and will likely be a giant non-issue if we deal with the potentially broken mons themselves. I also don't think this is the time to really test things down, while this metagame has made progress without having to deal with brokens like Flutter or Deo-A there are probably a few more things to look at first before the metagame fully stabilizes.

I encourage people to talk about the survey more here to get a more public discussion!

 

[SuckyLucky]

I also think Torn is bad for the tier and should be banned. Let's return to a proper tier, one where the only guaranteed Tailwind setter is Murkrow (Whimsicott has a problem but that's not from Tailwind setting).

I also think Arch is extremely restrictive in teambuilder, and is pretty unhealthy for the tier. Quirky stuff like beat up whims only makes the issue worse even if it is pretty gimmicky.

Also can we just quickban evasion abilities?

 

[Howfalcons]

can we just quickban evasion abilities?

I feel like this is a no-brainer tbh. Articuno teams are a blight on the ladder recently and evasion abilities add nothing interesting to the game.

 

[Heatranator]

I will say firstly, I very much support a evasion abilities ban. The articuno snow teams (and snow teams in general) would still be pretty good and would make them more legitimate, as they mostly rely on the massive bulk they gain from snow + aurora veil while using powerful blizzards to get big damage and freeze. I've been using a glaceon snow team and the snow cloak aspect isn't even a large part of it, only another thing that can make it more dumb.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2105190429-ov1a2crpcny2y4736utnmqj4q49ztnepw?p2
While the linked game is using an older team, it still shows how devestating evasion abilities can be. I got 4 snow cloak misses in that round and it just made the game easier because of that. Said snow cloak ban would mean I would have to use ice body, which wouldn't be too much of a big deal and means glaceon could still a defensive beast.
Now, for the other points.

This mon is dumb, I would support a ban. It is basically the only tailwind mon you should use, everything else is much inferior. Dragonite can technically tailwind, but you want to use banded e-speed more likely. The next closest tailwind users are in Tier 4, with pelliper, who is limited to a specific playstyle, and whimsicott, who is mostly balanced (but I'll talk about the problematic part later). It also single handedly ruins any weather which means any weather setter is much worse off. It's also the best weather setter itself, so that's a problem. There's probably more to say, but I've talked long enough about it, ban it please.
/
Idk about these ones, they feel very powerful but potentially not overwhelming. Chien pao feels dealable with its frail nature and its overeliance on sash to not get destroyed after one turn its out. Gambit is a bit more concerning due to it punishing any intimidate users immensly, while not being bad if it doesn't get that matchup. But I'd like others input since I haven't seen them too much.
/
I think that arch on its own is a fine mon. Very powerful, but it can be dealt with due to its lackluster special stat and to patch that up it can't have other stuff like safety goggles. The main issue I have with it is the beat up interaction. Now, I think most other justified users are alright with beat up, the closest justified user to OU is arcanine, who will want to run intimidate regardless. Every other justified user is alright. With arch however, not only are you raising your defense, but making a super powered threat that can ohko most things that don't resist it or are immune to it, which is restricting. I wouldn't have a problem if arch is banned, but I think there should be talks about what the true issue with the strategy is because there seems to be more than meets the eye under the surface.

Nah, this ain't a problem (this is talking about tera). We don't need to ban it.
/ /
Please don't unban any of these. I would say that you could ban commander on tatsugiri, but that's a roundabout solution, so just keep tats banned. The strategy of commander is too centralising and makes teams have to overcompensate. Kyurem black is way too powerful for the tier, good bulk, good enough speed and immense power. Urshifu rapid strike breaks doubles with unseen fist, defensive counterplay is limited. Please don't unban these, the metagame would go in the dumpster.

No, I don't think amoonguss should be banned. This is talking about sleep. IMO, sleep is busted. We already have the gravity sleep clause, so let's just do the full yard and ban it. Amoonguss is the most problematic part of this as it means trick room teams are basically going to be dead weight unless they have heavy safety goggles usage. This is a big thing, because safety goggles is otherwise a useless on a mon, but amoonguss means you have to have one mon with the item. Torkoal with yawn is also really annoying to deal with, and can be pretty big when its threatening eruptions all the time. I've even used yawn on bloodmoon and it still is an amazing move on it. There is limited counterplay to sleep, as the combo of spore + yawn means not much wants to take it. There are quite a few grass types in the tier, but I don't think they should be necessary to stop one matchup will be dead against everything else.

 

[Fangame10]

I forbid the banning of Articuno

 

[Akaru Kokuyo]

Hii I have some free time today and I felt like writing my point of view on the survey that we have currently ongoing.

Tornadus ​

Tornadus is basically the premier Pokémon to use in most offensive structures. Having Priority Tailwind is an amazing tool to have and quite frankly does restrict both your teambuild and gameplan a bit. It mainly runs Bleakwind Storm as an AoE stab, and the remaining two slots can be used depending on what you need. It can be one of Taunt / Protect / Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Icy Wind, and even niche moves like U-Turn, Focus Blast, Brick Break, Knock Off, etc.

Now, altough it does provide so much good utility and field control, Tornadus wants to live for a couple of turns & switch out to be able to set up Tailwind again later in the game. This frequently means you have to run bulk and/or an item like Sitrus berry to guarantee this, and this brings three weird scenarios:

1. You maximize the bulk in HP & Defenses, which means you are eating a lot of hits, but you're also slow as hell and allows opponent to have an easier time Taunting your Tornadus with their own / They match your Tailwind and Tornadus will be slower than a lot of Pokémon while not dealing damage.
2. You maximize Speed & HP, which means you are a bit tanky, you're also almost guaranteed to set up your Tailwind / Taunt opposing Tornadus from getting theirs up, but you are not dealing damage (And it can still die very easily to a strong single-target move like Raging Bolt Draco Meteor or +1 Cudgel).
3. You maximize Speed & Spa, which mean you're NOT living most hits, but you're almost guaranteed to setup your Tailwind / Taunt opposing Tornadus from getting theirs up, while dealing a good chunk of damage too. The downside of this is you're kind of forced to run Focus Sash if you don't want to die from 1 hit / If u decide to run Covert Cloak and opp decides to target this, you won't get a second Tailwind up.

My main point being, altough Tornadus offers a good ammount of utility in speed control and disrupting moves, it also has very considerable flaws that this metagame punishes quite hard. The "not dealing damage" means you are allowing a lot of setup Pokémon to freely setup without being punished, or simply put yourself in a 1v2 situation, something that most teams & good players will abuse to start snowballing to victory.
The "Ok but I'm forced to also run my own Tornadus Tailwind" argument isn't that solid I think. Sure Tornadus is by far the best Tailwind user, but this doesn't mean you HAVE to run it if you want Tailwind. There are other good Tailwind users such as Roaring Moon, Mew, Pelipper, Lati-twins, etc., that do a good job. However, people seem to just splash Tornadus because they think they HAVE to have the priority Tailwind, often resulting in teams where Tornadus feels weird and disturbs the pace of the team instead of improving it. Evaluate your team people, see what pros and cons you recieve from the different users, and run the one that fits your team the best.

Chien Pao ​

I'm going to be honest and just say it how I think it is: Chien-Pao is not an abuser Pokémon, it's an enabler. Very much like Flutter Mane.
Sword of Ruin is a pretty broken double-edged ability, since it also lowers your ally Defense. Sure, this thing also hits like a truck and will pick up a lot of KOs if you let it stay too much on the field, but it's main point is enabling your allies to run down opposing team, while Chien-Pao itself helps to cheap/clean. We see it in Priority Spam, we see it in normal Offense and we also see it in Bulky Offense. Focus Sash should always be ran on this to further extend its presence on the field, but Clear Amulet & Life Orb sets are also popular, altough I don't think as powerful as Focus Sash.

So far, I don't think Chien-Pao is a broken Pokémon since we JUST discovered it's true potential, but I'd say to definetely keep an eye on this as the metagame develops. If we keep introducing as many dragons as we have been doing lately, Chien-Pao will definetely be more prominent.

Kingambit ​

I love this mon a lot, very solid win condition, but very Tera hungry. Usually, Pokémon that are Tera hungry require you to build a team around it, and this one isn't that different. The difference comes in what it offers, and this is a Pokémon that can turn a 1v6 situation very easily (Well maybe not that exagerated lol but if manages to setup and start attacking, it's amazing).
However, this has a lot of counter play. We have a lot of spread damage moves in Sandsear Storm, Make It Rain, Heat Wave, etc. We have a lot of good checks of this Pokémon in Landorus, Iron Hands, Chi-Yu, Archaludon, "Incineroar", etc. We're able to easily shut down Sucker Punch with Follow Me Ogerpon or Amoonguss Rage Powder, which means some funny 50/50 scenarios where your ally Pokémon is usually dealing damage / setting up too no matter what.
Another struggle Kingambit has its the stabs. If you're AV, then you're good, but you won't be able to boost your Attack with Swords Dance, but if you are SD, you have to decide if you want to run standard set (Which is Double Dark) and get walled by Fairy/Dark/Fight Pokémon, or Iron Head + Sucker Punch, which means not being walled anymore by these common types, but now struggle into the likes of Ogerpon Follow Me.

In general, It is a very solid Pokémon, but nowhere near as broken as it is in Singles. (Also a reason it's broken in Singles is Supreme Overlord, which often is not able to run in Doubles since Defiant is such a good ability here).

Archaludon
​

I was one of the people that thought this was the next tier 1 after Flutter Mane ban. I was wrong. Altough it is a very good and versatile Pokémon, it just lacks... something to be considered Tier 1. And I would say this something is lacking sustain.
It has so many viable Teras (Fly, Grass, Fairy, Bug, Fight), but all of them come with a big flaw that Archaludon is unable to fix by itself and requires support for that. It does, however, pressure opponent team with all the different sets it can run. Did u expect an Assault Vest and wanted to win by chaining two strong physical attacks? Surprise, it is Iron Defense. Did u expect IDBP Leftovers because you saw a Rillaboom with it + no rain structure? Surprise, it had an Assault Vest and is now still dealing huge chunks of damage with its strong BP moves & Body Press.

However, this thing lacking Sustain means that you can strategically wear it down so it does the minimum ammount of damage to you. Strong special attackers like Landorus, Chi-Yu and Raging Bolt can do big chunks of damage immediately, and while it can retaliate back with Draco Meteor or Body Press, it won't be as threatening as if u were constantly cheaping it and now it has 3-4 Stamina boosts. Also the speed is super weird, not being slow enough to be good in Trick Room while not being fast enough to be in Tailwind, getting some weird positioning at times.

Still, this has way more pros than cons, and is one of the closest Pokémon to Tier 1. You should totally keep this Pokémon in your mind when building because it can snowball a lot of unprepared teams very easily.

Tatsugiri ​

Will not talk a lot about this Pokémon since I barely played it, but I feel we have enough tools now to deal with TatsuDozo combo. I'd be super glad to have this tested in the form of Hosted DOU Tournaments!

Evasion Abilities & Whimsicott/Beat Up ​

Will group these two cuz I think they're not good enough to say anything about them. We haven't had games where any of these are prominent, so eh. Sure evasion abilities + weather is annoying, but this often means you're running shit-mons to be able to abuse them. And I won't even talk about Whimsicott because of how bad it is :(

Kyurem-Black & Urshifu RS ​

Will also group these two because as long as Tera remains with no regulation, these two will just be unstopable and there is no reason to think they would be healthy in our Metagame. I COULD consider it if Flutter Mane was still around, and even then my thoughts would probably still be "They're broken". Which leads me to my next big paragraph:

Teracrystallization ​

Okay, now into the controversial take. I don't think Tera is broken as Dynamax was, but it is definetely a bail-out card and can literally turn games upside down even if your position didn't seem good. It forces you to think a lot on the move you're clicking too, for example, an "easy" one is you can't click Body Press vs Ursaluna because of how popular Ghost is on that Pokémon. But more complex scenarios can pop up, such as you not sure of clicking Spore vs Chi-Yu because it can have a Grass Tera.
Tera also makes some Pokémon super broken, such as Kyurem Black and Urshifu-RS, earning a ban on a lot of things that in paper aren't that amazing/ban worthy.

I'm not saying some sort of immediate action should be taken at all, since we have been playing with Free Tera for over a year already, but maybe we could have tournaments where Tera is regulated / banned and evaluate from there. My personal favorite is having Tera Preview available, since this still rewards preparing the correct Tera, but isn't that much of a surprise factor as it was before that could just turn lost games into won games.