If I wanted to hit water types harder I usually go for Energy Ball on my Lati. It hits things like Rotom, Manaphy, and Diancie harder if not OHKOing them with a life orb set. The ladder definitely never expects it as most standard Lati sets can't do much of anything to Diancie. And EB got buffed to Base 90 so it has the same BP as Thunderbolt.
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Well I think D meteor hits rotom Harder, and while doing se damage on ttar, and Diancie sounds great the trends do favor heatran scizor and manaphy at the moment, dealing crucial damage to a scizor, bisharp or some switch in damage to heatran can make a huge difference in a match than some extra damage on manaphy and ttar if you ask me as those are covered mostly by dmeteor or tbolt.
I actually prefer Surf for ttar and Diancie, it also gives something to hit Sharp and Szor and destroys Heatran, while Psyshock already takes a nice chunck of Azumarrill. Literally the only thing you miss the coverage without Energy Ball or TBolt is Empoleon, who isn't really common (tough making such a nice defogger and SR setter, I wonder why).
The main problem with surf for me is the presence of spdef Slowbro, Gyarados and manaphy getting a free switch in or baiting the use of dmeteor.
Surf is definitely viable, as it hits common-ish counters heat ran and ttar for se damage, but Latios kinda misses the boltbeam coverage... Ice beam becomes all the more useful with lando and chomp on the rise, so having t bolt to hit predicted ice beam switch ins is really useful IMO. Energy ball hits azumarill and rotom w but misses out on gyarados and empoleon. If you fear the pursuit ttar, I guess you could surf, but Tbolt coverage makes me want to use it more.
And hp fire helps for scizor and ferro if you hate them.
And hp fire helps for scizor and ferro if you hate them.
I have one question about Togekiss.
I don't see the point of Togekiss in this current meta. What changed for Togekiss, being now a B+ Pokémon? It is a great Pokémon for sure, but the Paraflinch defensive-Set and the Nastyplot/-pass-Set, combined with SR Weakness and other flaws isn't something new. Plus, there're a lot of steels/steel attacks rising right now, like CB Scizor, MMeta, Skarmory with Iron Head, etc.
Maybe I'm underselling it, but that's why I'm asking this.
I don't see the point of Togekiss in this current meta. What changed for Togekiss, being now a B+ Pokémon? It is a great Pokémon for sure, but the Paraflinch defensive-Set and the Nastyplot/-pass-Set, combined with SR Weakness and other flaws isn't something new. Plus, there're a lot of steels/steel attacks rising right now, like CB Scizor, MMeta, Skarmory with Iron Head, etc.
Maybe I'm underselling it, but that's why I'm asking this.
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I'll try to the answer this, but someone else might be able to do so better and/or with more detail. Togekiss has great mixed bulk of 85/95/115 that can let it run physically defensive or specially defensive sets effectively. It also has a unique typing that gives it immunities to dragon and ground, while also having useful quad resists in bug and fighting and a dark resistance too. It has an incredible movepool with tons of options like roost, nasty plot, heal bell, air slash, aura sphere, dazzling gleam, thunder wave, the list goes on. It has two effective sets in the current ORAS metagame - a defensive set, which can be specially or physically based as I said, and a stall-breaker/nasty plot set. The stall-breaker set is probably more viable because Togekiss can reliably get up a boost vs. a lot of other pokes and then chip away at opponents with its flying STAB that comes with an incredibly frustrating 60% flinch chance. SR weakness isn't necessarily a huge problem because Toge has access to reliable recovery. Steels can be a problem, but Toge has coverage options like Flamethrower/Fire Blast to help with that.
Overall, I'd keep in mind that while B+ is a fairly high rank, the description does still state that B-ranked pokemon have notable flaws and require some team support to be used effectively. In Togekiss's case, these flaws are its SR weakness and lackluster base 80 speed. However, in the end Togekiss's positive traits outweigh its negative traits, and therefore it is deserving of its B+ rank.
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Yeah I get why Togekiss is a good Pokémon and why Togekiss deserve its place in the ranking, but my question is why Togekiss is -now- a big(ger) threat than before. I mean I'm aware of all points you stated, but this isn't something new. Togekiss always had those two sets, aka Stallbreak and Defensive.
I'm also aware of the current metagame and the current Balanced/BO playstyle, but does this justify a B+ rank? Maybe this is wrong, but as far as I can remember Togekiss was C+ for a time, though Pokémon was nearly always more of a balanced/bo game. That's why I'm a little bit confused. All other viability ranks are (after the next update, I think) perfectly fine right now IMO.
I'm also aware of the current metagame and the current Balanced/BO playstyle, but does this justify a B+ rank? Maybe this is wrong, but as far as I can remember Togekiss was C+ for a time, though Pokémon was nearly always more of a balanced/bo game. That's why I'm a little bit confused. All other viability ranks are (after the next update, I think) perfectly fine right now IMO.
I can't speak with certainty, but I did a search for Togekiss in the viability ranking thread and found some insight. Togekiss seemed to move up because it can perform well against a variety of playstyles. Nasty Plot sets are a monster for stall and balance to deal with, and Togekiss can still do something against offense with thunder wave.
Anyway, considering we're talking about the viability ranking of a specific pokemon, I think bringing up your point in the viability ranking thread will give you some more solid answers to your question. I'd suggest posting about it here.
Is it bad to run substitute without leftovers or a viable recovery like recover, morning sun, or roost?
Not necessarily, it's a good move on some attackers as they force a switch to ease prediction, or it can be used on set-up sweepers too like Gyarados.
jpw234
Catastrophic Event Specialist
Eckleburg theurbandear
The big thing yall left out in the Togekiss discussion was BP. Perhaps you meant to include it when you said "stallbreaker" but one of the big things that Toge can do is run a set of NP/BP/Air Slash/Roost, which still stallbreaks pretty damn well and also retains some nice utility against offense since it can use its bulk/resistances to find a spot to NP and then slow BP to something scary like Scarf Keld or something.
The big thing yall left out in the Togekiss discussion was BP. Perhaps you meant to include it when you said "stallbreaker" but one of the big things that Toge can do is run a set of NP/BP/Air Slash/Roost, which still stallbreaks pretty damn well and also retains some nice utility against offense since it can use its bulk/resistances to find a spot to NP and then slow BP to something scary like Scarf Keld or something.
Ah i see, but yesterday i saw someone on PS running a bulky thundurus w/ substitute, Thunderbolt, Taunt, and HP ice without any leftovers, i thought it was pretty weird, or is it?
That sounds... weird. It may have been sashed, or maybe your opponent thought Expert Belt was a good idea (it isn't).
If they're anything like me, they were probably just being a silly-billy and forgot to put an item on when teambuilding.
As Flygonial said before me, it's not always bad. Some pokemon like gengar can run life orb and substitute as it's pretty frail anyways, and it allows it to dodge status and attempts at revenge killing. Most of the time it is not that common but it is definitely not bad.
Or even mega altaria and gyarados.
well, gengar's substitute sets usually run leftovers and/or pain split, so gengar is not quite an example of "sub+no recovery". gyarados is by far the biggest example, subDD mega gyara tears apart stall thanks to Mold Breaker smashing through Unaware users like Quagsire and Clefable
Something that people have neglected to mention is that there are berry sub users, like Empoleon who used to make an amazing sweeper, I mean not so much now but it still fills a niche as a sweeper (SubPetaya Empoleon). Other mons include Sub BellyDrum Linoone (Although uncommon in OU) is still a good example.
^Neither of those exist in OU. The only relevant SubBerry mons right now are SubSitrus Hawlucha and SubSalac Garchomp, and even then Garchomp rarely runs that these days.
Sub is used on mons that have the ability to run the move without sacrificing its effectiveness. Very few Pokémon actually fit this criteria. Usually these Pokémon are offensive in nature and often forces switches to give them the free turn needed to set up a sub. These Pokémon are also capable of breaking through defensive moms whose only way of dealing significant damage is through status. The Pokémon that actually fit the above criteria are limited to mons like (Mega) Gyara, Mega Chomp, Serperior, Gengar, Keldeo, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, Hawlucha, Jirachi, Celebi, and Mega Altaria.
Now to answer the question (which should've been in SQSA), no, Substitute does not need to be used in tandem with a recovery move. Sets with sub vary from mon to mon. Pokémon like Celebi and Altaria use sub with roost, but that is because they have to longevity to do so and have the bulk to keep their subs intact for 2/3 moves. Other mons, like Gyara, Keldeo, and Serperior, are more offensive in nature and use sub to let them set up easier against fat teams that can't break their subs. Usually this comes in the form of Sub[Set up move] such as subCM Keldeo. These sets tend to run lefties. Finally, there are mons that use a sub to prevent revenge killing because their 4th slot is so versatile. These mons do not rely on their sub, so lefties / a recovery move are foregone for a more beneficial item. This applies to mons such as Mega Garchomp, Mega Gyara, Mega Pinsir, and Gengar. These mons won't always use their sub, so there is no need for recovery (assuming they are capable of learning such a move).
Sub is used on mons that have the ability to run the move without sacrificing its effectiveness. Very few Pokémon actually fit this criteria. Usually these Pokémon are offensive in nature and often forces switches to give them the free turn needed to set up a sub. These Pokémon are also capable of breaking through defensive moms whose only way of dealing significant damage is through status. The Pokémon that actually fit the above criteria are limited to mons like (Mega) Gyara, Mega Chomp, Serperior, Gengar, Keldeo, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, Hawlucha, Jirachi, Celebi, and Mega Altaria.
Now to answer the question (which should've been in SQSA), no, Substitute does not need to be used in tandem with a recovery move. Sets with sub vary from mon to mon. Pokémon like Celebi and Altaria use sub with roost, but that is because they have to longevity to do so and have the bulk to keep their subs intact for 2/3 moves. Other mons, like Gyara, Keldeo, and Serperior, are more offensive in nature and use sub to let them set up easier against fat teams that can't break their subs. Usually this comes in the form of Sub[Set up move] such as subCM Keldeo. These sets tend to run lefties. Finally, there are mons that use a sub to prevent revenge killing because their 4th slot is so versatile. These mons do not rely on their sub, so lefties / a recovery move are foregone for a more beneficial item. This applies to mons such as Mega Garchomp, Mega Gyara, Mega Pinsir, and Gengar. These mons won't always use their sub, so there is no need for recovery (assuming they are capable of learning such a move).
Not even mentioning SubSalac Chesnaught :(
Well it's a gimmick, one I'm proud of using, but let's be honest he isn't a serious presence in the ladder.
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 224 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake/knock off
- Synthesis
Mega venusaur has a interesting move pool that we can use for a nice lure. Knock off doing over 50% to one of the most popular switch ins ,latios, with the given attack. It's also good to knock off chansey's eviolite and is a interesting move to use on venusaur.
12- Atk Mega Venusaur Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 154-182 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Earthquake is here to lure in things like heatran which take a load to a earthquake.
12- Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-296 (64.4 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
People who are using heatran usually think they have a safe switch in since the set is usually HP fire to hit the ferrothorns.
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